Penguin: Lucy Wan

Subject: Penguin: Lucy Wan ^^
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 19 Mar 00 - 01:14 AM

G'day,
From the Penguin Book Of English Folk Songs, Ed Pellow's rendition of the tune of Lucy Wan (Child #51) can be found here.

LUCY WAN

Fair Lucy she sits at her father's door,
A-weeping and making moan,
And by there came her brother dear:
'What ails thee, Lucy Wan?'

'I ail, and I ail, dear brother,' she said,
'I'll tell you the reason why;
There is a child between my two sides,
Between you, dear Billy, and I.'

And he has drawn his good broad sword,
That hung down by his knee,
And he has cutted off Lucy Wan's head,
And her fair body in three.

'Oh, I have cutted off my greyhound's head,
And I pray you pardon me.'
'Oh, this is not the blood of our greyhound,
But the blood of our Lucy.'

'Oh, what shall you do when your father comes to know?
My son, pray tell unto me.'
'I shall dress myself in a new suit of blue
And sail to some far country.'

'Oh, what will you do with your houses and your lands?
My son, pray tell unto me?'
'Oh, I shall leave them all to my children so small,
By one, by two, by three.'

'Oh, when shall you turn to your own wife again?
My son, pray tell unto me.'
'When the sun and the moon rise over yonder hill,
And I hope that may never, never be.'

Sung by Mrs Dann, Cottenham, Cambs. (E.B. & W.P.M. n.d.)

See here for another version.

Previous song: Lovely Joan.
Next song: The Manchester 'Angel'.

Cheers,
Alan ^^

Subject: RE: Penguin: Lucy Wan
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 10:53 PM

From the notes to the Penguin Book (1959):

"This rare ballad, also called Lizzie Wan, belongs to the same tradition as the well-known  Edward  (Child #13).  But whereas in Edward it is usually the brother who is the victim (for reasons that are seldom clear), in Lizzie or  Lucy Wan  it is the sister, guilty of incest whether wittingly or not, who is savagely put to death.  This is the only version of the ballad found in oral tradition in England, nor has any new Scottish version been reported since the publication of Motherwell's Minstrelsy in 1827...The three opening stanzas are quoted from Child (with "Lucy" substituted for "Lizzie"), and the order of Mrs. Dann's verses is re-arranged for the sake of coherence."  -R.V.W./A.L.L.

This version was collected by Ella Bell and W. Percy Merrick from Mrs. Dann of Cottenham, Cambridgeshire (no date given) and was first published in the Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, vol. I, p. 53.

Child #51
@incest @family @murder

Besides the above version, there is also one from the Appalachians on the DT:

Lizzie Wan:  Two tunes are given; the first is the one collected with the text by Sharp, but there is no indication as to where the second came from.

There is also a version in the Forum:

Lucy Wan:   This is the version recorded by Martin Carthy, who got it from A. L. Lloyd, who apparantly said that "in the course of singing it over some thirty years he (had) emphasised the Lydian starkness of the tune and (had) also mildly adapted the original (and somewhat scrappy) text."  Lloyd could be mysterious about his sources, and it is unclear where he got this one.

There is an entry at the Traditional Ballad Index:  Lizie Wan [Child 51]

Both of the texts printed in the Child collection may be seen at Lesley Nelson's  Child Ballads  site:

Lizie Wan  (Child A)

Rosie Ann  (Child B)

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Penguin: Lucy Wan
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 11:49 PM

In 1972, Frank Purslow published a version of Rosie Ann, collected by Dr. George Gardiner from Frank Harrington of Bartley, Hampshire, in November 1908.  The text was "extremely fragmentary", so he added a good bit of material from the version in Child.  Although it is, as a result, largely an English re-write of the version originally published in Motherwell (1827), the ballad is so rare in tradition (disregarding commercial recordings by Revival performers) that it's worth adding here:

ROSIE ANN

Fair Rosie Ann sits at her father's door,
A-weeping and making moan,
When along there came her own father dear,
Saying, "What ails thee, Rosie Ann?"

"A deal, a deal, dear father," she said,
"Good reasons have I to moan,
For there lies a babe between my two sides,
Between me and my brother John."

Fair Rosie Ann sits at her father's door,
A-weeping and making moan,
When along there came her own mother dear,
Saying, "What ails thee, Rosie Ann?"

"A deal, a deal, dear mother," she said,
"Good reasons have I to moan,
For there lies a babe between my two sides,
Between me and my brother John."

Fair Rosie Ann sits at her father's door,
A-weeping and making moan,
When along there came her own sister dear,
Saying, "What ails thee, Rosie Ann?"

"A deal, a deal, dear sister," she said,
"Good reasons have I to moan,
For there lies a babe between my two sides,
Between me and my brother John."

Now her brother was sitting in the very next room,
And heard what she had for to say,
And he's away to his sister Rosie Ann,
As fast as he can hie.

"Oh! you have told father, and you have told mother,
And you have told sister all three."
And he has drawn his good broad sword,
And cut her fair body in three.

"What blood is that upon your sword?
Son John, come tell to me."
"It is my horse's that I did kill,
Dear mother and fair lady."

"Your horse's blood was never so red,
Son John, come tell to me."
"It is my hound's that I did kill,
Dear mother and fair lady."

"Your horse's blood was never so clear,
Son John, come tell to me."
"Oh! I have cutted off fair Rosie Ann's head,
And her fair body in three."

"And what will you do when your father comes home?
Son John, come tell to me."
"I will take my father's best riding horse,
And go as far as I can see."

"What will you do with your bonny young wife?
Son John, come tell to me."
"I'll set her on foot on yonder shipboard,
And hope she will follow me."

"What will you do with your bonny wee son?
Son John, come tell to me."
"I'll leave him with you, my mother dear,
To keep in remembrance of me."

"What will you do with your houses and your land?
Son John, come tell to me."
"I'll sell them all and give you the money,
To keep my young baby."

"When will you return again, my son John?
Son John, come tell to me."
"When the sun and the moon meet in yonder shady bower,
And that will never, never be."

From The Constant Lovers, E.F.D.S. Publications Ltd., 1972

I will send a midi of the tune to the Mudcat Midi Site.

Subject: RE: Penguin: Lucy Wan
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 11:55 PM

As the Penguin notes mention, it has been suggested that Lucy/Lizzie Wan may be related to Edward.   Bertrand Bronson, in his article The Interdependence of Ballad Tunes and Texts (1944), thought it likely that the former was the older; A. L. Lloyd , in Folk Song in England, states it categorically: "Lucy Wan (out of which grew the famous piece dismally named Edward)..."

See also  The Edward Ballad,  and  Edward.,  on the DT.

I've had to submit this post in 3 instalments, as I kept getting "insufficient memory" messages; I can only assume that this is due to the particularly high proportion of irrelevant rubbish clogging the Forum just at present...

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Penguin: Lucy Wan
From: Lena
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 09:10 AM

There's a recording of Lucy from Martin Carthy which doesn't sound at all like the Child version.Are there other big gatherings of folk tunes other than Child's?!

Subject: RE: Penguin: Lucy Wan
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 09:15 AM

Malcolm,

Thanks so much for your hard work in annotating the Penguin songs.

Lots of us appreciate your efforts

Ed

Subject: RE: Penguin: Lucy Wan
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 01:12 AM

G'day,
Thanks to Malcolm the tune for "Rosie Ann" can be found here at the Mudcat MIDI site.

Cheers,
Alan

Subject: RE: Penguin: Lucy Wan
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 02:46 AM

Click here for Martin Carthy's version of this song.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Penguin: Lucy Wan
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 06:12 PM

Interesting thread here. The various versions of Lucy Wan, Fair Lucy, and Edward do seem to have many things in common which would hint at each version being a variation of the same antecedent. Where the incest theme is clearly stated in Lucy, there is no obvious reference to it in Edward, unless the allusion is allegorical. In the stanza

It is too red for your old coon dog
My son, now tell to me
It is the blood of my brother John
Who hoed the corn for me, me, me
Who hoed the corn for me.
What did you fall out about?
My son, now tell to me
Because he cut yon holly bush
Which might have been a tree, tree, tree
Which might have been a tree.

"Hoeing the corn" may be a sexual reference, and "cutting down yon holly bush" may be alluding to killing the sister. This Edward version would appear to be of Appalachian origin, while Lucy appears in Child. Does this indicate that Lucy was cleaned up for the tastes of the Scotch-Irish in America?

Subject: RE: Penguin: Lucy Wan
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 07:32 PM

It's a mistake to assume that the Appalachian community was most importantly Scots-Irish; the English component was just as significant, though it's rather unfashionable nowadays to acknowledge that. There was quite an important Scandinavian element, too, and it was from Northern Europe that the Appalachian dulcimer came to America. So far as Edward is concerned, Cecil Sharp found at least ten sets of it in Appalachia, but apparently only one example of Lizzie Wan.

Subject: RE: Penguin: Lucy Wan
From: pavane
Date: 11 Apr 02 - 07:25 AM

The version of Edward sung by Nic Jones has the holly bush verse. Due to time restrictions on web access, I haven't checked to see if it is one of those listed above.

Subject: RE: Penguin: Lucy Wan
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 06:25 PM

Charlotte Dann ( nee Few) of Cottenham, Cambridgeshire from whom the song was collected had some fragmentary verses, in addition to some of the more familiar ones from Child.
She sang the first two fragments to the second half of the tune.The last two lines were repeated.

O what did he do, You very soon shall hear
He shed poor Lucy's blood.

O was that the blood of your grey hound
Or the blood of your Lucy?

O what shall you do with your houses and your lands
My son pray tell unto me
I shall leave them all to my children so small,
By one by two by three.
I shall leave them all to my children so small,
By one by two by three.

O when will shall you turn to your own wife again
My son pray tell unto me
When the sun and the moon rises over yonder hill
I hope that will never never be.
When the sun and the moon rises over yonder hill
I hope that will never never be.


O what will you do when your father comes to know
My son pray tell unto me
I will dress myself in a new suit of blue
And gang to the far country.
I will dress myself in a new suit of blue
And gang to the far country.


Ella Bull wrote down the song from memory of Charlotte singing it some years previously and subsequently seems to have checked with her to see if she had any more of the song. Unfortunately she had no more than Ella had first recalled. Ella sent the song to W.Percy Merrick in approximately 1904 and thence it was published in the Journal of the Folk Song Society.
Ella said in a letter to Lucy Broadwood that Charlotte learned most of her songs from her mother, Hannah Few from Over (a village on the edge of the Fens) but she could not recall where she learnt Lucy. Ella's view was that in Cromwell's time some Scots prisoners were quartered in North Cambridgeshire and the song may have come from there.The use of the word "gang" in the last verse is suggestive of this hypothesis. I have never heard Cambridgeshire people say "gang" for "go".

Subject: RE: Penguin: Lucy Wan
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 07:27 PM

Lyr. Add: FAIR LUCY
Coll. Helen H. Flanders, 1933

Fair Lucy was sitting in her own father's door
Making her laments alone,
When who should come there but her own mother dear
Saying, "What makes Fair Lucy mourn?"

"I have a cause for to grieve," she said,
"And a reason for to mourn,
For the babe that lies in the cradle asleep,
Dear Mother, it is his own."

Fair Lucy was sitting in her own cabin door
Making her laments alone.
Who should come by but her own brother dear
Saying, " What makes Fair Lucy mourn?"

"I have a cause for to grieve," she said,
"And a reason for to mourn,
For the babe that lies in the cradle asleep,
Dear brother, it is your own.

He took her by the lily-white hand
And he led her into the woods.
What he did there, I never can declare
But he spilt Fair Lucy's blood.

"Oh, what is that upon your frock,
My son, come tell to me."
"It is one drop of Fair Lucy's blood
And that you plainly can see."

"What will your father say to you
When he returns to me?"
"I shall step my foot on board a ship
And my face he never shall see."

"What will you do with your three little babes,
My son come tell to me?"
"I shall leave them here at my father's command
For to keep him companee."

"What will you do with your pretty little wife,
My son, come tell to me?"
"She shall step her foot on board a ship
And sail the ocean with me."

"What will you do with your houses and lands,
My son, come tell to me?"
"I shall leave them here at my father's command
For to set my children free."

"When will you return again,
My son, come tell to me?"
"When the sun and the moon *set on yonder green hill
And I'm sure that never can be."

The singer, Mrs. Alice Sicily of Vermont, thought the word might have been "meet." Her parents sang this song, In singing, repeat the last two lines of each stanza.

With musical score, pp. 336-338.
Helen H. Flanders, 1960, "Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England," V. I, Ballads 1-51. Printed in BFSSNF, VII, 6.
Child 51, "Lizie Wan."
Franders says the ballad was reworked as "The Bloody Brother" in the Forget-me-not Songster c. 1845.

Subject: RE: Penguin: Lucy Wan
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 07:55 PM

Come to think of it, there's not really that many trad folk songs about Penguins ??

Subject: RE: Penguin: Lucy Wan
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 08:48 AM

http://gaffa.org/archives/1990-14/msg00077.html

"These are from "The Ballad Book" by MacEdward Leach.

Version 1 is from Scotland, version 2 from Vermont (!)."