Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'

Subject: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: GUEST,Auxiris
Date: 19 Mar 00 - 11:39 AM

Hello, everyone. . . here is yet another attempt to add something to the impressive store of knowledge represented by the DT. Two more verses to Stephen Foster's "Hard Times Come Again No More" (source: John Molineux):

Oh, the cotton buds are withered and the corn stalks buried deep
In the ground still waiting for the rain
And the children are so hungry they cry themselves to sleep
Not knowing if they'll wake again

And you don't hear the banjo ring out a merry tune
In the cabin at the close of the day
And no more we'll gather at night beneath the moon
To sing all our cares away

Cheers,
Aux

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: WyoWoman
Date: 19 Mar 00 - 01:24 PM

God, those are great. Where have they been? How'd they get lost?

This is one of my favorites. I'll add these lyrics immeed-giately.

Thanks, WW

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 19 Mar 00 - 07:17 PM

Auxiris--after submitting those mournful verses you say "Cheers"? Am I right in suspecting that you wrote the verses? In the verses commonly attributed to Foster, the "hard times" are in the past and will, the singer hopes, stay there. Yours are fine verses, though, and Wyo, I'll be happy to accompany your singing them when you show up at the Swong Circle next month.

--seed

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Jo Taylor
Date: 19 Mar 00 - 07:44 PM

I'd heard the second one before
Jo

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Callie
Date: 19 Mar 00 - 08:30 PM

Seed: Auxiris states the source of the extra verses. Unless John Molineux and Auxiris are one and the same,it can safely be assumed that Auxiris did not pen the extra verses!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Mar 00 - 08:59 PM

Well, Callie, I'm still hoping Aux will give us a more definitive answer. While the source of the lyrics was Molineux, who wrote them? Foster himself? All the sources I checked have just the four verses that are in the Digital Tradition (pause in life's pleasures, seek mirth & beauty, pale drooping maiden, sigh that is wafted), so I'm assuming those were the only verses Foster wrote, and the verses above were penned by another person - was it Molineux? Who's he?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: WyoWoman
Date: 19 Mar 00 - 11:46 PM

BSeed, yer on. That'll be great. I sing it in A.

And I'm very curious to know about these mysterious "new" verses. I'll wait to hear...

Wondering in Wyo...

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: GUEST,Auxiris
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 04:09 AM

Hello, everyone. . . sorry I didn't get back to the Mudcat last night. Was having trouble staying on line. To answer your questions, more or less satisfactorily, I suspect:

Wyo, I got the two verses from John Molineux on the occasion of a concert that he gave at a festival in Socourt, France a couple of years ago. I didn't find out until some time later that he'd gotten them from his niece, Jo Freya who is a well-known singer in Great Britain, either solo or as a member of "Token Women" or the "Old Swan Band". Unfortunately, I can't really tell you for sure who wrote them or how long they've been "lost".

Seed, I always sign my posts "cheers" and I can't think why you want to look a gift horse in the mouth, anyway. Does it really matter if they are modern verses? I only wish I could say that I'd written them.

Callie, thanks for jumping to my defense.

Jo, how are things in Normandy these days? Hope you had a good St Pat's day.

Thanks, Joe Offer, once again for correcting the breaks between the lines of the verses; someday I'll get it right! For your information: John Molineux is a fine lap dulcimer player. I found a vinyl recording (entitled "Douce Amère") of his in a bargain bin in a Parisian record shop a number of years ago. I had the great good luck to hear him in concert at a tiny festival in the Vosges mountains, which was when I heard him sing the two verses that I've submitted at the top of this thread.

Now, then. . . all I have, personally, to say about the verses is that if you like them, sing them and try not to worry too much about whether they are "authentic" or not. After all, folks still sing "Darcy Farrow"!

cheers, Aux

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: GUEST,Auxiris
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 04:26 AM

Sorry, mistake: John's niece is Fiona Fraser she's Jo Freya's sister; I must really be in the fog this morning.

cheers, Aux

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 04:27 AM

Well, Aux, the lyrics may be "harvested" for inclusion in the database, so it's good to make sure the attribution was right. Any lyrics posted in the forum are under consideration for inclusion in the database, so it's a nice idea to try to be careful about the little details, like correct words and songwriter and background information and such - and line breaks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 06:17 AM

Sorry to be the one to pour cold water on this but IMO adding extra verses to this song is sacrilege of the grossest kind. "Hard Times Come Again No More" is arguably the finest song ever written, and these alleged extra verses certainly did not come from Foster's pen. Whoever penned them, the song does not need them and is not improved by them. Every verse Foster wrote ends with the line "Hard Times, come again no more" So why break the pattern? Also, the last line of the alleged extra verse "To sing all our cares away", would be impossibly clumsy to sing. Try it.

Curmudgeonly

Murray

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: GUEST,Auxiris
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 06:59 AM

So, Murray MacLeod, don't sing them: no one asked you to, but don't get churlish with me! All I did was send them in. However, I do think that it'll be the last time I contribute any lyrics, verse or other bits of prose to the forum. For those of you who wish to sing the second "alleged" verse, you could try: "To sing all our weary cares away".

cheers,

Aux

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From:
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 10:46 AM

Auxiris, Please don't be put off by the negative comments. It is appreciated that you took the time to write them down and then post them.

I do agree with Joe, that it IS very important to distinguish that these are not lyrics originating from the author of the song, but recently written ones.

From the standpoint of people who listen it is nice to hear more but it's is hard to tell if they what the original author intended.

Hopefully I haven't confused the issue.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: GUEST,Auxiris
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 11:45 AM

Thanks for your thoughts, George and no, I don't think you've confused the issue at all. Joe's right, it's very true that as much information as possible is the best way to go.

Now, I do have Fiona's address, so I could conceivably write to her and ask if she knows the origin of the two verses. It may take quite a while to get a reply, so before I write to her, I'd like to know in advance if those of you who have commented think it's worth the time & trouble to try and find out. . . ?

As far as authors go, here's another example: I found a tune in the Roche Collection of Irish Music that is entitled "The Morning of Life" and credited to a certain O'Carolan. This tune is NOT included in the "Complete Works of O'Carolan", but sounds very much like it could be a Turloch O'Carolan piece. What to think??

cheers, Aux

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 02:44 PM

Auxiris, I admit to being a little careless in reading your first post and a bit flip in commenting upon your "Cheers" closing. I am well known here for going off half-cocked (shut up, Spaw). But I certainly welcome your submission of the verses and your participation in the forum. I have submitted new verses to songs written by other people, myself, usually verses that I have written myself, and I feel the practice is perfectly acceptable. My quibble with these particular verses was that, while fine on their own merits, didn't fit the logic of the song, a prayer that hard times not return, not that they go away.

--seed

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: MMario
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 02:52 PM

seed? don't hard times have to go away before they can not return? I read the "new" verses as sort of reflection on the type of hard times they didn't want to see return

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Fortunato
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 04:07 PM

Auxiris, Thanks very much for your posting of the additional verses for Hard times... Please do not judge us all by the anal retentive, assholic, amateur folklorist/ethnomusicologists that sometime lurk around here. They'd rather bind and catalog the music than sing and play it and let it live. Screw them.

My wife and I are learning the song and will sing these verses gladly.

CHEERS Fortunato

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From:
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 05:08 PM

I for one would like to know the origins of the two verses.

Re the O'Carolan, yes, it would be interesting to see if one of those fiddlers who play O'Carolan pieces can tell if it is authentic or not.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 07:02 PM

Both "anal retentive" and "arseholish" at the same time? But I aggree - don't turn your back on us, Auxiris, just because someone's had a hard day at the office and feels likes being nasty to someone.

The first time I heard Hard Times it was Jo Freya (or Fraser as she called herself then) singing it - and I think she must included these verses, because there has always somehow seemed something missing from it when I've heard it since.

Fine verses, wherever they came from. (I'd not be surprised if it turned out that they had migrated from another somg at some point.)

Whether the song "needs" the extra verse, I don't know. When someone who sings as well and as thoughtfully as Jo Freya is singing, you can't really have too many verses.

I can't agree with people who seem to think that just because a song has a known writer it somehow ought to be immune from the folk process. It's in "the tradition" now, sung by people who have never heard of Stephen Foster, and that means variants will happen, and have every right to happen.

As for the claim that the logic of the song is messed up, because it's all about bad times having gone away... The point is that it's envisaged as being sung by people who escaped the hard times this time round, reaching out to help the people who didn't, and praying that somehow hard tiomes won't come again. But knowing full well that they will. And they have. And in fact they are always there if you look. Seen the news recently?

After all that, I suspect that I won't often sing these verses myself - I haven't got a voice like Jo Freya for one thing. Also they make the song very specific to a particular place and time - the "normal" verses could be about the South, they could be about Ireland - they could be about all kinds of places and times, today as much as then. And I think that for me, that is an important aspect of the song.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 07:37 PM

Auxiris: Very interesting that someone has come up with additional lyrics to Hard Times! Don't let anyone give you the proverbial brown smelly substance about it. With in fifteen years of Foster writing HArd times the Civil War soldiers had come up with parody lyrics for it and entitled it Hard Tack. As to the O'Carolan song Turlough O'Carolan was quite prolific and it is very possible The Morning of Life is one of his. I will follow the thread to see if anyone else has any infor on this. Let me know if you'd like the alternate lyrics I mentioned and remember Illigitmi non carborundum, Reguards, Neil (Irish Sergeant)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 07:44 PM

I don't think that anyone has suggested that the additional verses have no value simply because they (presumably) were not written by Stephen Foster; just that:
(1)  It's arguable that they add nothing much to the original song, and:
(2)  If they were written by somebody else, it would be useful to know who it was.

Fortunato's comments are at best unhelpful, though no doubt he meant well.  I for one would be interested in any further information that might come up (it's a favourite song); if Auxiris doesn't mind writing to Fi Fraser to ask about her source, I'm sure that most of us would be grateful for that.  

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Callie
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 08:13 PM

Aw c'mon Murray - the BEST song ever written? "There's a pale drooping maiden who toils her life away" is from the BEST song ever written? Tis a grand song, to be sure, but I myself find some of the lyrics mawkish and embarassing to sing.

Welcome Auxi - don't stop posting!

My $0.02 worth

--Callie

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 10:36 PM

My Caroline is right there with Callie -- she omits the "pale drooping maiden" verse. I suspect she'd be willing to trade one drooping maiden for one silent banjo, although I haven't discussed the matter with her, and she'd find some good way to phrase that last line. So let's be civil to one another and encourage Aux to track down the source for us.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Callie
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 10:39 PM

Hear hear!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: GUEST,Auxiris
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 02:07 AM

Okay, you're on; I will be writing to Fiona Fraser straight away to ask her for further details about the verses and will get back to you all as soon as possible, promise!

In the meantime, thank you all very much for your thoughts. Will check back from time to time at least to say "hello". The very best to all of you.

cheers, Aux

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Tony in Darwin
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 08:06 AM

Auxiris,

For what it's worth, Morning of Life appears under 'O'Carolan's Compositions' in O'Neill's 'Music of Ireland, 1850 melodies...'.

Cheers,

Tony

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 09:12 AM

Also, for what it's worth, two other tunes attributed to Carolan which he may not have written are Planxty George Brabazon (Twa Bonnie Maidens) and Sheebeg Sheemore (The Bonnie Cuckoo). I don't know if anyone will ever know for sure. In regards to being sacreligious and music - whoops, there goes the folk process.

Sandy, I once decided to act out the drooping maiden verse. (Swooning with back of hand to forehead, sliding down a wall.) Boy, did I get some dirty looks...

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Fortunato
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 10:43 AM

Malcolm Douglas.

Murray wrote: "Sorry to be the one to pour cold water on this but IMO adding extra verses to this song is sacrilege of the grossest kind."

You wrote: "I don't think that anyone has suggested that the additional verses have no value simply because they (presumably) were not written by Stephen Foster".

If you felt I was unhelpful, I think your were inaccurate at best.

Over and out. Fortunato

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 01:44 PM

I stand by my reading of Murray's post.  I should probably have italicised "simply", though.

All the best.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 09:34 PM

Uh-oh, I have shot myself in the foot here. When I wrote that last post I was semi-awake, rushing to get ready to drive 400 miles ,trying to have breakfast and scan the Mudcat postings at the same time.

First of all let me apologize sincerely to Auxiris for what on re-reading was a very grumpy posting. Please be assured I did not mean any personal slight whatsoever.

The thing is, "Hard Times Come Again No More" (full title) has always been a very special song for me. It was one of the first songs I learnt as a child and was regularly sung in our house in Scotland, (in the style of a Gaelic psalm, for those familiar with that tradition.)

Every single line of that song has a special relevance for me. As a small child in post-war Scotland I saw many hungry faces, and when I sang it for the last time in Scotland, at my mother's burial in a small seaside cemetery, believe me the verse about the pale drooping maiden toiling her life away never seemed more fitting and appropriate, as did the last verse.

So please forgive me my knee-jerk reaction to what was a well-intentioned posting from Auxiris. On re-reading his verses they are actually well written, and I too would like to who composed them.

Your anally retentive assholic amateur folklorist will now retire back into his library to catch up on some much- needed sleep ..........

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 09:41 PM

Folks, I would say that Murray, the MacLeod, has redeemed himself most graciously, and deserves our warmest good wishes. Here are mine, sir.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 09:42 PM

Because I too love the song, I've been reading this thread with interest and, uh..........

Good on ya' Murray....you're a class act.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Callie
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 12:40 AM

Murray - thanks for explaining. I can see why the song moves you so, and I'll now think of you when we perform it!

--callie

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: GUEST,Auxiris
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 03:40 AM

Hello, everyone. . .just wanted to let you all know that I have written to Fiona Fraser and hopefully we'll have more information about the two extra verses soon.

Murray, thank you for sharing part of your past with the rest of us. No apologies are necessary.

My best wishes to all who have posted.

cheers, Aux

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Fortunato
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 08:37 AM

Let us all sing this beautiful song together, even if in different times and places. Malcolm, Murray, Auxiris, et al, forgive my forcefulness, I must remember that all mean well here generally. Cheers, Fortunato

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Mbo
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 08:44 AM

Thanks for mentioning "Hard Tack Comes Again No More", Irishsergeant! I thought I was the only one left in the world who knew that one!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Teasle
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 05:05 PM

Tony - are you Tony Suttor??? If so contact me at [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 06:33 PM

virgin net? VIRGIN NET???? Holy Church of St. Rita Moreno........Are there signup stipulations? And what happens after, uh...you know.........I mean do you have to change ISP's??? Do they use Yahoo exclusively as a Search engine?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 08:38 PM

I used to be with virgin.net. Then I came across bigfoot.com, and decided that was much more the image I wanted at the foot of my email.

I've found the "drooping maiden" and the "wail" on the shore awkward to sing - and in fact I tend to sing the verses in question like this. I think it does no harm for a song to exist in different words on different lips, and I hope nobody minds. ,

There's a pale broken maiden who toils her life away,
With a warm heart, though better days are o'er.
Though her voice would be merry, 'tis sighing all the day,
Oh hard times come again no more.

Tis a cry that is drifted across the troubled wave,
Tis a weeping that is heard upon our shore
Tis a prayer that is murmured around those lonely graves
Oh hard times come again no more.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Callie
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 08:53 PM

But if you take the 'wail' out, that's the conservationists' verse wrecked! And it means I can't make my whale noises during that verse! Callie

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 08:56 PM

I've heard the "wail that is heard upon the shore" sound like concern expressed for an injured cetacean stranded on the beach at Cape Cod. Kind of spoiled the image for me. Still, the song remains one of our favorite Foster creations, and we sing it often.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 08:58 PM

I've heard the "wail that is heard upon the shore" sound like concern expressed for an injured cetacean stranded on the beach at Cape Cod. Kind of spoiled the image for me. Still, the song remains one of our favorite Foster creations, and we sing it often.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Callie
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 09:01 PM

Yes - for all my jeering, it's a song I love and we play it often. It's a good one for people singing along, too. --Callie

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 09:19 PM

Now that all is resolved regarding "HTCANM" , what I want to know is, has anyone got a couple of extra verses for "Raglan Road"?

Jocularly

Murray

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 09:19 PM

That's why I take the "wail" out. It's a song about people dying of starvation.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 09:54 PM

There's nothing essentially wrong with adapting lyrics so that you feel more comfortable with them, but it's important, too, to bear in mind that they were composed with specific context in mind. It's not always considered a good thing to re-write Shakespeare, for example, to accommodate modern sensibilities.  The 19th. century version of King Lear with a happy ending comes to mind.  I'm not comparing Foster directly to Shakespeare, but in his own field he was probably just as important.

On a less serious note, I have to admit that every time I hear John Tams' Rolling Home, I have to control myself very carefully when it comes to "...and let the toast go free";  I can just see posters saying "THE TOAST IS INNOCENT O.K"; I'd sign the petition!

Malcolm

P.S: 'SPaw: The main problem with Virgin is that you always have to attempt at least three connections before you get one that works; and you still have to pay for the ones that don't.   Some things never change...

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Jo Taylor
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 06:54 PM

Hello Auxiris, Normandy's fine, St Pat's was fine (band debut, fine!). Sorry, haven't been in for a few days.
Didn't John M live in Brittany a while back? Jo & Fi are both his nieces - Jo changed her surname from Fraser to Freya because someone else either in the MU or Equity was already registered as Jo Fraser (or so she told me in a pub in Sdmouth circa 1992!). I heard the 'banjo' verse sung by a friend in Devon who lived down the road from a friend who had Jo & Fi's uncle staying at her house, it was either John M or another uncle...yes, I'm confused too. He came down the pub and sang anyway. Strange how things go in circles.
Bedtime I think.
Jo

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: GUEST,linda
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:51 AM

Sorry to be adding to the debate so much later...but dare I add that I was listening to an interview with Arlo Guthrie about Woody about 3 years ago... they played Woody singing 'his' song 'Hard Times' which was the first two Foster verses followed by the 'cotton buds are withered' and no more we'll hear the banjo' verses. It was implied if not actually stated, that Woody wrote the song! Perhaps it was his version of it with perhaps the 2 new verses being written by him. Who knows?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 06:42 PM

I know you're going to kill this thread anyway, Joe, but isn't this just a blast from the past ...

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 2 verses of 'Hard Times'
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 06:44 PM

oh no, you deleted the spam post and now it's at the top again !

Oh Well ...