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Would God I were...history (Londonderry Air)

DigiTrad:
DANNY BOY
DANNY BOY (2)
DANNY BOY, REST IN PIECES
LONDON DERRIERE
LONDONDERRY AIR


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GUEST,Guest, leeneia 19 Mar 00 - 11:30 PM
SingsIrish Songs 23 Mar 00 - 03:21 AM
GUEST,Fiolar 23 Mar 00 - 01:32 PM
Sorcha 23 Mar 00 - 02:04 PM
SingsIrish Songs 23 Mar 00 - 02:07 PM
GUEST,GUEST, leeneia 23 Mar 00 - 03:52 PM
SingsIrish Songs 23 Mar 00 - 06:16 PM
SingsIrish Songs 23 Mar 00 - 06:21 PM
Sorcha 23 Mar 00 - 06:28 PM
SingsIrish Songs 23 Mar 00 - 06:37 PM
Sorcha 23 Mar 00 - 06:39 PM
alison 23 Mar 00 - 07:17 PM
SingsIrish Songs 23 Mar 00 - 07:21 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 25 Mar 00 - 12:20 AM
GUEST,Fiolar 25 Mar 00 - 05:40 AM
Fiolar 26 Mar 00 - 05:12 AM
SingsIrish Songs 26 Mar 00 - 04:41 PM
GUEST,Sian in Wales 27 Mar 00 - 10:08 AM
GUEST,mt orr 28 Feb 10 - 02:06 AM
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Subject: Would God I were...history
From: GUEST,Guest, leeneia
Date: 19 Mar 00 - 11:30 PM

There is a set of archaic-sounding lyrics to the Londerry Air (aka Danny Boy) which begins "Would God I were the tender apple blossom, which dies and falls from off the twisted bough..."

(Yes, I know the lyrics are all in the data base. That's not my question.)

Does anyone know if these are genuinely old or just a modern imitation? Whence cometh?


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Subject: RE: Would God I were...history
From: SingsIrish Songs
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 03:21 AM

I've come across the lyrics writer as being Katherine Tynan or Katherine Hinkson....(perhaps it is the same person...ie maiden/married names, but I can't confirm.) Unfortunately, I have no date, but I would put a more "recent" date on these lyrics compared to the "countless" others applied to the tune...What is interesting is the similarity of the lyrics you mentioned to those penned by A.P. Graves (some of the first put to the music.)

For some interesting info on Danny Boy and Londonderry Air (including Graves' lyrics, and others and a link to another site with a history of the song), visit the current Featured Song (for March) at Prof's Irish Pages... Prof's Pages http://www.prof.co.uk/irish1.htm

Sorry I couldn't give you more specific info!

Cheers!

Mary


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Subject: RE: Would God I were...history
From: GUEST,Fiolar
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 01:32 PM

Can't help with the lyrics but here is some information on Katherine Tynan. She was born in Dublin in 1861 and married her husband H.A. Hinkson in 1883. He was a resident magistrate in Co. Mayo. He died in 1919. She died in 1931. The air of Danny Boy/The Londonderry Air are based as far as I can recall on an old Irish folktune "Maidin I' mBeara." Mike


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Subject: RE: Would God I were...history
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 02:04 PM

This really intrigued me, so I have spent some time on it. I always thought that the "Would God I were" lyrics were about 1700, but no! This site Click attributes these words to Katherine Tynan Hinkson, and this one has a little bit of interesting info, not much of it available on line tho. In a book at my local library, Hinkson was credited with the words, published in 1864.

I also found her name spelled Tyman and Henkson.
Also, apparently Thomas Moore (1770-1852) also wrote a set of lyrics Called "My Gentle Harp", which I will post in an LyricAdd thread.
According to the Contemplator site, Rory Dall may have written the melody in the 1600's. See http://www.contemplator.com/folk3/harp.html
Interesting stuff!


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Subject: RE: Would God I were...history
From: SingsIrish Songs
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 02:07 PM

Her lyrics go back farther than what I would have expected...(though I don't know why my expectation is that the lyrics would be more "recent"....)

Robinson's site (link in Feature song at Prof's pages) and Bruce Olson's site (accessible from the Robinson site) noted a harp tune entitled Aislean an Oigfear, translated: The Young Man's Dream that Edward Bunting included in his first volume of tunes published in 1796 as the oldest origins of the tune Londonderry Air (aka Irish Tune from County Derry).

The tune certainly captures the interest of many people!

Mary


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Subject: RE: Would God I were...history
From: GUEST,GUEST, leeneia
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 03:52 PM

Thank you all for the information. (I didn't respond earlier because I checked and couldn't find my original question. I'm glad it's come back.)

I suspected that the words were more modern that they seemed, for one thing because the word "dapple" just didn't sound like the 17-Century to me.

By the way, I make early music with a bunch of pals, and we call this genre "Horny Cavalier." Other examples are "Greensleeves" and "Come Again."

In northern Ireland they have a whole festival which is named for the discoverer of "the Londonderry Air." The Irish call the city of Londonderry merely Derry, but for some mysterious reason they don't call The Londonderry Air the Derry Air.


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Subject: RE: Would God I were...history
From: SingsIrish Songs
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 06:16 PM

Some good resources Sorcha! I shall relay the info about Katherine Tynan Hinkson for possible inclusion in the Danny Boy Feature Song....(with credit given to you for submitting the info)..

The Contemplator site (when I was comparing my notes of various alternate lyrics) has some incorrect information re the Thomas Moore lyrics.....the book I had from the library "Irish Melodies by Thomas Moore" arranged by Charles V. Stanford (1895) has "My Gentle Harp" to the old air "The Caoine or Dirge"....Moore's lyrics "As a beam o'er the face of the waters" are set to the Londonderry Air's tune of origin: "The Young Man's Dream"...these lyrics can be found at Robinson's site along with the score or the original melody.

Here's the direct link to Robinson's site...(should you wish to bypass the additional info at Prof's Irish Pages) Danny Boy History http://www.standingstones.com/dannyboy.html

It is lots of fun digging up info about these song of old!

Mary


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Subject: RE: Would God I were...history
From: SingsIrish Songs
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 06:21 PM

I keep missing info in this post!

Mike (Fiolar)...thanks for the biographical info re Tynan-Hinkson. I am interested in locating the Irish folksong you mentioned.....

I will make note of your info....do you have a source for the dates/names you mentioned??? That way, it might be added to the Prof's Feature Page (we attempt to have documented info/sources/websites....)....

Cheers!


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Subject: RE: Would God I were...history
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 06:28 PM

SingsIrishSongs--Are you the Prof? Cool site!


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Subject: RE: Would God I were...history
From: SingsIrish Songs
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 06:37 PM

I'm not the Prof...that'd be Mudcatter Mick Lowe...I'm just his "assistant"...

We are in the works on getting the "song lists" back up and running.........though some of the data has not yet been recouped...

Mary


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Subject: RE: Would God I were...history
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 06:39 PM

Actually, on a Eugene O'Donnell/James MacCafferty CD called "The Foggy Dew" it is called "Derry Air".


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Subject: RE: Would God I were...history
From: alison
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 07:17 PM

would the words "Acushla mine" be in the version you have heard? I ahve heard it sung maybe 25 years ago.... sounds vaguely familiar....

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Would God I were...history
From: SingsIrish Songs
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 07:21 PM

Acushla Mine is yet another set of alternate lyrics for the melody......


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Subject: RE: Would God I were...history
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 25 Mar 00 - 12:20 AM

As a supplement to Michael Robinson's "Danny Boy" history at www.standingstones.com there are some earlier copies of "The Young Man's Dream" tune and the song of "The Young Man's Dream" on my website.


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Subject: RE: Would God I were...history
From: GUEST,Fiolar
Date: 25 Mar 00 - 05:40 AM

Hi A couple of things. In response to "SingsIrishSongs", I haven't got the words of "Maidin I' mBeara" but I'll check my books and see if I can discover anymore. With regard to the info on Katherine Tynan, check "A Dictionary of Irish Biography" edited by Henry Boylan - ISDN 0-7171-2507-6. In reply to "Leeneia" the word "dapple" is in fact late 16th century and possibly earlier. According the Oxford English Dictionary it may be related to the Old Norse word "depill" meaning a spot. Cheers Mike


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Subject: RE: Would God I were...history
From: Fiolar
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 05:12 AM

For SingsIrishSongs Trying to trace the origins of traditional music is like trying to hold water in a sieve. Many, many of the folk "songs" we regard as modern are more than likely words which have been added in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Moore's Melodies are a classic example. He just took old Irish tunes and added words. Anyway here are the words of "Maidin i mBearra." Is e mo chaoi gan mise maidin aerach Amuigh i mBearra im' sheasamh ar an tra, Is guth na n-ean 'om' tharraing thar na sleibhte cois na farraige Go Cein an Aitinn mar a mbionn mo grah. Is obann aoibhinn aiteasach do leimfinn, Do righfinn saor o ana-bhroid an tlais, Do thabharfainn droim le scamallaibh an tsaoil seo, Da bhfaighinn mo leirdhothain d'amharc ar mo chaoimhshearc bhan.

Is e mo dhith bheith ceangailte go faonlag, Is neart mo cleibh a thachtadh anseo sa tsraid, An fhaid ta reim na habhann agus gaoth glan na farraige Ag glaoch is ar gairm ar an gcroi seo im' lar. Is milis briomhar leathanbhog an t-aer ann, Is gile on ngrein go fairsing ar an mban is ochon, a ri-bhean bhanuil na gcraobhfholt, Gan sinn-ne araon i measc an aitinn mar do bhimis trath!

Now having traced the words I am at a loss to decide which came first, "Danny Boy" or the tune of the above.

In regard to Katherine Tynan, you may like to know she also wrote the words for a version of the "The Wind that Shakes the Barley." Not however as far as I can make out the one which deals with the 1798 rebellion. Mike


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Subject: RE: Would God I were...history
From: SingsIrish Songs
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 04:41 PM

Mike (Fiolar) I agree re some origins being like water in a sieve...great analogy! Though it is nice learning some background info!

Thanks for posting the lyrics as well!

I'm kinda rushing at the moment....

Cheers!

Mary


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Subject: RE: Would God I were...history
From: GUEST,Sian in Wales
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 10:08 AM

Leeneia

Could you give some details about the NI festival you mentioned? I've just come back from a conference in Limavady, but I saw no mention made of it. It would give me a good excuse to return!

Limavady and surrounds certainly reflect an odd collection of cultural references: Red Sails in the Sunset was written in / inspired by one of the local seaside towns, and we passed near a grave of a local vampire which is credited as inspiring Bram Stoker to write Dracula ...

Pure co-incidence that one of the new local initiatives involved garlic farming ...

Sian


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Subject: RE: Would God I were...history
From: GUEST,mt orr
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 02:06 AM

The words to Maidean i mBearra were written in the early twentieth century by Osborne Bergin a Gaelic scholar born in Cork. As far as I know no folk words to the original melody survive, but many have been written since the Air was collected and published,notably Danny Boy by an Edwardian English lyricist.


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