Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God

Subject: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 09:14 AM

It is news, such as the latest mass 'suicide' of up to 470 members of a cult in Uganda, that confirm my belief that we have created God, in our image and not the other way round.

Such Is The God

You will find, in the finest of gardens
Some small place, where the wild flowers grow
And you can't train children, like a gardener trains roses
You can't thin out, you just reap what you sow

Inquisitions and witch-hunts and final solutions
Moral pollution, that defeats it's own ends
The obvious answer, is it always the best one?
It's wise to question, both your foe and your friend

The rose and the thorn, fine fruit and the poison
The soldier's warning? Just a young man, afraid
Through the eyes of the uncertain and the cries of believers
Such is the god in whose image we're made
The body of man, the heart of a woman
Songs of bright morning and the cool evening shade
Through the eyes of the poets and lies of deceivers
Such is the God, in whose image we're made

Do you join in the song, that everyone's singing?
Do you follow the path, just because it's well-trod?
Is faith just a way, to avoid hard decisions?
For religions are man-made, not made by God

The rose and the thorn, fine fruit and the poison
The soldier's warning? Just a young man, afraid
Through the eyes of the uncertain and the cries of believers
Such is the god in whose image we're made
The body of man, the heart of a woman
Songs of bright morning and the cool evening shade
Through the eyes of the poets and lies of deceivers
Such is the God, in whose image we're made

Roger Gall 1996

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 09:29 AM

But Roger, you show me what God creates, not man.

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 09:40 AM

Let's not get argumentative...the song is the gem it is because Sham wrote it. The cultists took their lives because...I don't know -- every now and then one of these events comes along -- Jim Jones, the Encinitas comet-riders, -- a mass belief gets rolling and the next thing you know they're drinking the KoolAid. I can appreciate what Roger is looking at. I would have to say that individually they were riding their own trail and could have steered off it anytime before the mudslide...

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 10:02 AM

Roger, another good song. I will read through any that bear your name. The sentiment is all to true in far too many instances. In any religion, and even specifically Christianity, there are those who, for whatever reasons, will prey upon the helpless and emotionally weak. There are those who use religion as a tool to gain control over others and,in some cases, to amass a fortune. Sometimes there is a tragic conclusion. They have been present in every historical age. But, they are not the measure of all believers.

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 11:06 AM

Strong lyric Roger.

Rick

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 11:32 AM

Nice Lyrics, I wish I could hear it sung--

As to Uganda--who knows what really happened? I have learned that there is more to the story than the first impression leads us to believe--

In the meantime, my favorite chilling thought comes back to me: The world is such a large place that for ever conceivable impulse and fantasy, there is someone, somewhere who will actually try to carry it out--

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: fulurum
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 03:17 PM

great song.

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 06:00 PM

Good song. When will people learn that God the creator doesn't want us to destroy ourselves in His or any other's name. No one who creates things, no matter how large or small, can rejoice in the deliberate death and mutilations of another living thing.

LTS

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 06:14 PM

Great lyrics!

But as far as mass suicides go, sounds like natural selection in full swing to me...

{~`

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: kendall
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 07:05 PM

When you compare the short life of a human, 3 score and 10, with eternity, it doesn't amount to much. But, eternity is what it's all about. This brief life in this human form is but the wink of an eye. The body can be destroyed, but, the soul/spirit/essence, if you will, can not be destroyed.And the most important part of a human is his/her essence, not the body. If you believe this, then such events are not important in the long run. Those souls will simply re-incarnate elsewhere.

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: tar_heel
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 07:39 PM

the last buntch took off to catch up with the HALE-BOPP comet....what in the world were these people looking for????

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 09:42 PM

They were looking, old friend, for a free ride. And, in my opinion for what it is worth, it doesn't work that way.

Kendall, me hat is off to you for one of the deepest posts and finest turns of prose yet seen on the 'Cat.

You must have one of them post hole diggers I read about ;>). Seriously, that was beautiful. Thanks,

A

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 10:26 PM

This reincarnation stuff is why those Buddhists back during the Vietnam War used to figure that it was a great political statement to set themselves on fire--funny thing was, back in those days, at least among the Anti-War people, there was no shock or horror, or "wondering why" that there seems to be these days when people kill themselves for religious or political reasons--

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 10:37 PM

M.Ted, I don't remember it that way, but I do remember being so young that I didn't know what to think or how to think about those things. And I remember still being in shock over The Bomb and the scary movies out then with people fleeing radioactivity.

I do remember lots of shock and horror.

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Mar 00 - 11:50 PM

Shambles, that is an extremely well penned piece, a powerful lyric. Glad you posted it.

What price the afterlife? I have no surety of anything beyond the now and I wish I could understand more of the thinking of those who do. I try, but it never seems to work out for me.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: canoer
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 03:01 AM

Without taking the time to look up all the proper names and dates and statistics:

When the Europeans were on the verge of the final conquest of the Native Americans, a religion called the Ghost Dance arose, which basically turned into a way of committing mass suicide against the gatling guns.

When the Boers were on the verge of completing their conquest of the native peoples of South Africa, there arose a cattle-killing religious movement, where the people killed all their cattle and awaited the predicted demise of all the Boers. Instead the people starved to death.

In modern Uganda, Rwanda, etc, the Tutsi militia massacres the Hutu. The Hutu massacre the Tutsi. Survivors flee in the half-millions to the nearest (like Uganda) refuge. Uganda can't handle it. The powers that be, locally and internationally, cry crocodile tears and let everyone starve and suffer. Famine, illness, unemployment, unrelieved misery go on and on.

The suicide cults are a specific human response of desperation, in a desperate situation with basically no hope in sight.

The "solution" to the suicide-cult problem is the solution of the real-world problems to which they are reacting.

$0.02 and change -- Larry C.

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 08:13 AM

Spaw, I often just read your posts and pray for you for a moment in what I have come to recognize as prayer. I never seem to able to say things very effectively to you, but I would welcome more opportunities to try.

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 09:13 AM

Kendall's brings up a good point with his insight about eternity, re-incarnations and afterlife.
The problem I find is that people understand these concepts on some level but then get them mixed up on another level.
Spiritual concepts are important but at the same time we are human beings physically present on planet earth, where part of our job is to work on being grounded, centered and learn from dealing with the present reality you have been given.
Being alive is sacred, and not to be traded in because the afterlife is better or that we are going to return to it anyway so why not pack it in and go back now.
I like what Quinten Crisp had to say about this "why would I want to think about the afterlife when I am having enough difficulties dealing with this life."
Personally, I think I'd rather wait until my number was called.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: kendall
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 12:44 PM

Thanks Amos..I usually try to stay away from such topics, but, the Mudcatters generally are open to other ideas, so, it feels safe to dive in, so to speak. We have all heard people who say "Why does God allow such suffering?Well, consider this.. I saw starving children, and I screemed at God. Then, I realized that those starving children were God screeming at me.

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: kendall
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 12:46 PM

Enough..I'm a humorist/folksinger, not a philosopher.

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 01:07 PM

Well Kendall you could be. Here's a simple test:

Do you find yourself looking for a non-existent black cat while blindfolded in a completely dark room? If so, you may be a philosopher.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 07:47 PM

Tackling REALLY tough issues in song is very much a two edged sword. Frankly, I've often gone the route of satire or tongue in cheek humour to deal with issues that made me sad. My friend Grit Laskin wrote perhaps his most brilliant song about 4 years ago and found very quickly that it was so effective he could not sing it live without totally destroying any positive dynamic he'd built up with his audience. It was about a man infected with AIDS who knowingly slept with dozens of women, who by now are probably either dead or dying. Grit's anger at the newspaper accounts of this man's trial, was stronger than his political feelings about the disease and the piece entitled "In The Blood", written in the style of a 16th century ballad was nearly unlistenable. I believe it's on his album "A Few Simple Words".

Rick

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: kendall
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 01:24 PM

Can you imagine the karma that bastard will drag into the next life?

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 06:01 PM

Rick, I listen to that song you mentioned In The Blood, by Grit Laskin several times and I do find it very disturbing. It really does change my mood and I feel sad, just the same as when in the middle of a light conversation someone will tell me about a current tragic event.
I stop, think about it, feel shaken and stay that way until the conversation shifts to some other topic.
Jus the same with music, when the mood of the music shifts so does my mood.
I think is adds to the CD, offering a wider range of emotions.
Now if the entire CD was filled with songs of sadness, I would turn it off.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: Peg
Date: 05 Apr 00 - 03:20 PM

for anyone interested, this link will take you to an essay I wrote about the Heaven's Gate mass suicide...which I consider an event somewhat difefernt from these mass suicides of religious followers. These were affluent educated New Agers who I believe chose this destiny of their own free will (though the castration thing bothered me a bit)

http://www.witchvox.com/cases/heavensgate.html#hgpeg

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 06 Apr 00 - 02:57 PM

As of right now, this seems to have been, at least in part, a mass murder, rather than a simple mass suicide--the facts may be a long time in coming, because the local police have very limited resources to investigate--

Too bad the Ugandan cops can't wrap this all up with an IMHO post--

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: Mister Dressup
Date: 06 Apr 00 - 08:52 PM

There are many people who comment about religion leading to so much violence and death, totally ignoring the fact that the Nazis and the Russian and Chinese communist revolutions( not to mention the earlier French revolution) were filled with (nominally anyhow) Atheists. All the above mentioned "atheist" movements (I use the term "atheist" loosely in the present context, the movements mentioned had many who claimed to be atheist or agnostic in some form) involved the elimination of millions of people. The problem of violence shows up in all human endeavours, like being parents, running business ventures, governments, etc.

Violence has reared its ugly head through many religions, in my opinion, largely because there are simply so many religiously oriented human beings on the planet. There always have been, and I think there always will be as long as we strive to find meaning to a life that we know will end up in the grave (physically).

In any group that has a very large number of people, abuses will crop up as long as there are mentally unstable people in the general population of the human race. I believe that the mistakes of the past can be used to learn the right way to think about God's will, family dynamics, government systems, and so on. This does not mean that religions, ideas about worship of God, or whatever should be totally condemned as barbaric just to please those with a bias against religion in general.

Subject: RE: Uganda mass suicide/Such Is The God
From: Mister Dressup
Date: 10 Apr 00 - 04:19 PM

hello again