Song writing questions

Subject: RE: Song writing questions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 01:31 PM

That's a bit like asking if a pair of shoes can be too small. Depends on the size of the feet you are putting in inside them.

You can't get simpler than than "Happy Birthday to you". You can't get simpler than the only verse of "Auld Lang Syne" that people remember and sing.

Small is beautiful, less is more, simple is best. If you can manage to say what you are trying to say, that's what matters.

"I wander as I wander out under the sky
how Jesus our saviour did come for to die
for poor sick and weary, for you and for I,
I wonder as I wander out under the sky."

That's simple...

Subject: RE: Song writing questions
From: Áine
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 02:01 PM

Upon reflection, and Kevin's response, I figured that asking the question without providing the lyrics was kinda dumb. So, here they are, with the chords (as they stand now): It's in 4/4 time, BTW.

Chorus:
If(C) I let you fly(Em) away,
If(C) I let you go (Em),
Where will you(Am) be tomor(F)row,
Will I know(C), will I know(D)?

Win(C)ter has come(D7) and gone(C),
The redbird has found(D7) her nest(Am),
But it's time(D) for you(C) to tra(G)vel,
And it's best(Em), yes(D7) it's best(Am)

In(C) a world that's new(D7) to you(C),
But is so old(D7) to me(Am),
Will the road(D) that leads(C) away(G),
Bring you back(Em) again(D7) to me(Am),

(Chorus)

I(C) have held you in(D7) my arms(C),
Now's the time to set(D7) you free(Am),
Will the world(D) set you(C) on high(G),
Or will it bring(Em) you to(D7) your knees(Am)?

There(C) you go with just(D7) a wave(C),
Down the road, your back(D7) to me(Am),
Not a tear(D), no sign(C) or sor(G)row,
Walking tall(Em), a man(D7) to be(Am).

(Chorus)

Subject: RE: Song writing questions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 07:13 PM

Oh yes!

Subject: RE: Song writing questions
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 07:31 PM

Simplicity is good!!! Now I want to hear it---

Subject: RE: Song writing questions
From: rainbow
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 09:20 PM

.. well last night i got to iview jeanene van zandt about townes songwriting.... some of what she shared was that he needed to be alone to write.... hotel rooms and late nights when everyone else in the house was asleep... he'd go to bed early and get up in the wee hours.

also, his cd released after his death -- called "far cry from dead" is really interesting. listened to him read the poem (sans music) of sanitorium blues... he was coming up with a little chord structure that was on the tape... and the musicians created the song from there, playing his reading of the poetry over the music. very interesting...

his songs often came from an outside source (up "above") ... and he felt called upon to deliver them to folks.

i miss the days when i wrote alot of songs... when i would wake up and be so inspired with an idea that i HAD to write it down... for to write was to distill a feeling, an emotion, an understanding... and then when it was distilled in a form it could be shared... well, then i truly had learned from my life...

it doesn't happen as much as it used to. things used to DEMAND to be written about. now i am busy busy busy. the last writing i did was at an international guitar night concert. the flamenco music stirred up so many emotions that it stirred up many things that needed to be put into words.

i am a wordsmith in my work, and it seems the more i write for work, the less i write songs and poetry. sad i think. i would like to change that more. that's one of the reasons i visit this place. i am seeking inspiration.

i have brought out my music research books and things and they are close to the computer now... trying to create new habits and get back to the wisdom hidden in the olde songs.

... lorraine

Subject: RE: Song writing questions
From: Áine
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 09:25 AM

A Chaoimhín -- I guess that means you liked it. I hope so, because I wrote on the back of my printout of your own 'Listen To Your Heart', which I was trying to put chords to. I just took your advice from the song, and 'Will I Know?' came out. (BTW, if you could see your way clear to send me the chords for 'Listen To Your Heart', I'd really appreciate it!).

M.Ted -- I hope to send this in to Max for the Mudcat Radio this week, so maybe you'll get to hear it next week. (The Good Lord willing and the creeks don't rise!).

rainbow -- I'm glad to hear that you want to start writing again. Speaking from experience, even in a busy life, you can find a way to do it. I wrote 'Will I Know' with two kids playing a computer game behind me and another one watching a video in the next room, in between breaks to wash dishes and put clothes in the dryer. Great good luck to you!

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Song writing questions
From: GMT
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 09:33 AM

I've been away for a week but don't see mention of the Jimmy Webb book which I've found to be very helpful if a bit wordy.

Cheers Gary

Subject: RE: Song writing questions
From: Bert
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 11:10 AM

Áine, I think it's a great song, but the true test for YOU is "When you sing it now, does it make you feel the way you felt when you wrote it?"

Bert.

Subject: RE: Song writing questions
From: Mbo
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 11:23 AM

It DOES work, bert, at least for me. My song "Say Goodbye" (in the Songbook) was written for The Music Gang, the first friends I'd ever had, and the sadness of our breaking up last year at the end of our community college days. I cried when I wrote it, I cried when I sang it for them, and I still cry when I sing it now. That's why I don't play it too much...it's too sad.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Song writing questions
From: Homeless
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 11:55 AM

It seems the general consensus is that most everyone has to work at a song to get it right (and I thought I was the only one who had to do that). I thank everyone for their input - it's been very educational. I'll be checking into some of the references listed here. And I've printed this thread for my "personal files," to look back thru when I've done a bit more writing.

But seeing that songwriting is such work, it has brought up another question, which can be found here.

Subject: RE: Song writing questions
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 01:52 PM

Áine:

It is an absolutely beautiful song and I would not change a word.

And it is not too simple. The most powerful phrase is the leanest one. Here is one of the simplest song couplets ever written:

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found; once blind, but now I see.

Regardless of the metaphysics it is extraordinarily sweet and direct and it pierces to that place that words know not, which is what songs should do whenever they can.

Yours does that. Thanks for revealing it. Will you add it to your stack of unfulfilled taing requests, please? I know it will be another that gets played over and over.

Subject: RE: Song writing questions
From: Áine
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 02:06 PM

Dear Amos,

Thank you for your kind words. I've already promised Bert to send it in to him, so of course you're on the list (ha!). I'm really going to have to get DH to teach me how to work his computer so I don't have to wait 'till he comes home from work. Thanks again, dear friend.

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Song writing questions
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 02:30 PM

OK kids, the gloves come off now--first, Amos, wake up!!!

Amazing Grace, while a charming and delightful, and venerable song, is not one of the highpoints of English coupletry--

Aine--what red bird is it that you are referring to?

Subject: RE: Song writing questions
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 02:40 PM

Come to think of it here is an even more simple couplet, from a Leadbelly song which has almost mystic power in the right context because it invites so much from the imagination:

Redbird, redbird, singin in the mornin' redbird!
Redbird redbird, singin' in the mornin', redbird!

And another, which Leadbelly I think brought forward from friends on the prison gangs:

Ol' Reilly crossed the water
On them long hot summer days...

From "Here, Rattler Here". The latent imagery of the simplicity is amazing.

A

Subject: RE: Song writing questions
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 07:47 AM

Aine - that song was the good kind of simple! Even without hearing a tune the words worked fine (which is quite a feat in itself).

The only song I've written that my husband enthused about was very simple both lyrically & melodically. Its a melancholy little thing about death & the lyrics go:

Its been a year gone by wouldn't you think that I'd be used to it? a long long year, I am not used to it.

Oh you cold cold grave, oh you cold cold grave, oh you cold cold grave, I am not used to it.

Its been 10 years now, wouldn't you think that I'd be used to it? 10 long long years, I am not used to it.

Then it just goes on up the years to 15, 50, 85, with minor variations in the phrasing & melody. Til it gets to

And if it were a hundred years, wouldn't you know I'll not be used to it? one hundred years, I'll not get used to it.

Its probably the simplest lyrics I've ever written & it really needs the tune to put it in context. I recorded it onto a tape to give my dad, and really was just filling up space. I'd never have expected Mark to like it!!!! It just goes to show that simplicity & repetition can work. Mark is not one for compliments (swine), so I was really chuffed to have written something he liked. Especially as it was partly about feeling I'd never get used to losing him when we thought he might have been on his way out a while back - he's fine now though :).

On the three minute rule - I'd sort of reluctantly agree - ish. We went to a folk weekend recently where people were singing a lot of very long songs in the singaround, and it took a while to get used to it after the 3-min conditioning we get on the radio. Our initial reaction was to 'sit through' some of them, but as time got on we got more used to the length and it was lovely to take the time to listen & appreciate the stories in the songs. The weekend was run be a folk-club where the long songs seemed to be the norm. I think that in a more general audience the 'sit-throughers' would outnumber the 'appreciators' & so in general the 3 minute rule is safest. Hell of a shame though. Is it just a symptom of a less relaxed way of life that we don't feel we have the time to sit & listen? I feel like going & writing a 20 minute song just out of ockardness. Kris

Subject: RE: Song writing questions
From: Áine
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 08:07 AM

Dear Kris,

Of course, I'd love to hear your song to have the full experience of it, but your words are very evocative and full of direct meaning. And I'm so glad that things have worked out for your family now.

Don't worry about your hubby not liking your songs. Write for yourself, and if he does like them, that's just an extra bonus. If your writing makes you satisfied, that's what is important!

I agree that it is sad that today's time constraints leave us without the luxury most often of listening to longer songs with rich stories in them. I'm so glad that you had an opportunity to do that -- keep finding those opportunities!

And about that 20 minute song that you're tempted to write out of 'cussedness' . . . Do it! But just keep in mind that you'll have to remember all those words when you perform it...*BG*

All the best, Áine

Subject: RE: Song writing questions
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 11:41 AM

Oh good grief Aine! I never worry about whether HE doesn't like a song. He's damned difficult to please in any arena!! If he likes one its a bleedin' miracle. About that 20 minute song - p'raps I'll limit myself to about 20 lines, but sing them REAAAAAALLLLLLY slow....

Kris

Subject: RE: Song writing questions
From: Bert
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 12:14 PM

Kris,
That's a great song! Will you sing it for us and send it in, so that we can play it on Mudcat Radio?

Re: long songs. If you're at a folk club singing long ballads, and that is what everyone expects to hear, then that's fine. But I've been to too many singer/songwriter 'song exchanges' and heard mediocre songs that go on and on and on.

By all means write a 20 minute song, if you have that much to express, but watch your audience while you're singing it. Are they eagerly awaiting the next verse or are they wishing you'd either get to the point or shut up?

Bert.

Subject: RE: Song writing questions
From: Mr Happy
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 09:20 AM

in regard to the 'essay writing' technique for creating songs, when i was at university & had to prepare assignments, one of the ways i would do it was to write out the bibliography first.

doing this seemed to have the effect of 'cueing/ prompting' ideas for the body of the work.

in some respects, i've used a similar method for songs, that is; i hear a song or conversation or read something & quickly make a note of the idea before i forget it.

having the use of a pc's been a great advantage too, except i've had 'writer's block' for over 6 months now- but i've got a couple of dozen half done creations on file- some only as far as the title.

more comments?

Subject: RE: Song writing questions
From: MMario
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 09:48 AM

sometimes working on something completely different for a while will relaese the block.

Subject: RE: Song writing questions
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 10:21 AM

Sometimes, it helps to write out a couple sentences that tells what the song is about and where you want it to go--then just keep writing phrases that relate to the subject(don't worry about whether they rhyme or scan, or even make sense). After a while, you'll have a bunch of raw material that you can work with--there is a downside, because you can get hung up trying to fit a lot of odd pieces together, but that still is better than having nothing on the page--

Subject: RE: Song writing questions
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 10:44 AM

My blocks often occur because I want the song to go in one direction, and it's headed in another. If I keep trying to make the lines fit my ideas, I can get hung up. Often, what works is not to just scrap lines, but come up with whole new ideas and quit trying to force something to work. The "wait a while" approach works, because your attachment to what the song should be has a chance to fall out of your head. Sometimes you do find a way to express exactly what you want though. In that case, it may be you have some idea of lines you can't get to work right, and the wait makes your committment to them fall out of your head.

This waiting isn't necessary if you can give up what you've already got and try something completely different. You can save your old ideas, but try something brand new just for the heck of it.

And I say this while I'm currently stuck on the last two lines of a song! I think I already wrote them - they're the second-to-last two lines. Maybe I just need a couple of almost-last lines.

Subject: RE: Song writing questions
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 11:42 AM

McGrath of Harlow said:

What's the opposite of a flame? Should be a bucket of water, but that doesn't seem to apply to those comments. Warm Fuzzies is what it's sometimes called when people say something nice to you out of the blue. You need them sometimes.

I like "It's nice to get the flowers BEFORE you die!"

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Song writing questions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 02 - 05:52 PM

Or as the Carter Families expressed the thought "Give me the Roses while I live" - and here is honking duck with a streaming RealAudio version. (And here are the words.

Subject: RE: Song writing questions
From: Dave & Julie
Date: 31 Jul 02 - 05:43 PM

What a subject! I put some notes together for a workshop we did at Saddleworth Festival & it would be a shame not to share them (though I'm not claiming they comprise the definitive songwriting treatise). If anyone would like me to e-mail the text file please contact me at [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Song writing questions
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 03:20 PM

Dave,

Thanks for the workshop notes. Lots of good advice.

In the section on "Inspiration" you say Songs about our work can be rewarding (though there's probably more mileage in this if you're a chemical process operator rather than an accountant - and yes, I've been both). One my unfinished songs opens with the lines

I'll sing you songs of times gone by, of men who till the soil
Romantic songs of sailing ships or miners at their toil
For there isn't much romance when your job is boiling oil

I just don't seem to find oil refineries that inspiring. More likely, I can't imagine my day to day routine being that interesting. My biggest problem is coming up with an idea for a song that I think other people would be interested in. But then I found that you had written a song about Nunsthorpe and realised that anything is possible.



One of the earlier postings said you can tell when people write for a market, because the songs have no heart.

I enjoy writing for a specific purpose – a musical interlude in a sketch for example – as it gives me a sense of direction and, more importantly, it forces me to finish it. I've got a bag full of half finished songs that I would be really happy with if only I could find an ending.

In general, I go along with the 3¹/₂ minute rule. I've spent festival weekends listening to a series of 17 verse songs that were so intense and serious that I was ready to top myself.


This is a great thread. It could be just the thing I need to give me a push into doing something constructive.


By the way, McGrath, I tried the link to your website that was posted back in March 2000 but it didn't work. Do you have an updated link?


Doug C