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TTCM: We don't give a flying f

GUEST 28 Mar 00 - 03:21 AM
GUEST,TTCM 28 Mar 00 - 07:48 AM
wysiwyg 28 Mar 00 - 08:12 AM
Homeless 28 Mar 00 - 08:16 AM
wysiwyg 28 Mar 00 - 08:23 AM
GUEST,TTCM 28 Mar 00 - 09:01 AM
Lady McMoo 28 Mar 00 - 09:54 AM
GUEST,Mbo_at_ECU 28 Mar 00 - 10:15 AM
MMario 28 Mar 00 - 11:06 AM
Homeless 28 Mar 00 - 11:28 AM
simon-pierre 28 Mar 00 - 11:38 AM
Lady McMoo 28 Mar 00 - 11:41 AM
ceitagh 28 Mar 00 - 12:05 PM
Hollowfox 28 Mar 00 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,aldus 28 Mar 00 - 01:00 PM
Mooh 28 Mar 00 - 01:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Mar 00 - 01:34 PM
Homeless 28 Mar 00 - 02:22 PM
GUEST 28 Mar 00 - 03:24 PM
GUEST,TTCM 28 Mar 00 - 03:54 PM
wysiwyg 28 Mar 00 - 04:21 PM
GUEST 28 Mar 00 - 04:35 PM
Seamus Kennedy 28 Mar 00 - 04:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Mar 00 - 08:12 PM
Dulci46 28 Mar 00 - 08:27 PM
GUEST, The Thread Watcher 28 Mar 00 - 08:53 PM
Ebbie 28 Mar 00 - 09:01 PM
Gary T 28 Mar 00 - 09:11 PM
wysiwyg 29 Mar 00 - 01:14 AM
GUEST,Roger the skiffler 29 Mar 00 - 03:26 AM
GUEST,aldus 29 Mar 00 - 08:35 AM
kendall 29 Mar 00 - 08:42 AM
Homeless 29 Mar 00 - 08:50 AM
Lady McMoo 29 Mar 00 - 09:11 AM
Homeless 29 Mar 00 - 09:22 AM
alison 29 Mar 00 - 09:35 AM
GUEST,aldus 29 Mar 00 - 12:39 PM
GUEST,aldus 29 Mar 00 - 12:43 PM
Mbo 29 Mar 00 - 12:54 PM
Homeless 29 Mar 00 - 12:57 PM
ceitagh 29 Mar 00 - 12:58 PM
Homeless 29 Mar 00 - 01:05 PM
Ebbie 29 Mar 00 - 01:06 PM
MMario 29 Mar 00 - 01:13 PM
Amos 29 Mar 00 - 01:16 PM
GUEST,Wavestar 29 Mar 00 - 01:22 PM
Dan K (inactive) 29 Mar 00 - 01:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Mar 00 - 01:45 PM
Homeless 29 Mar 00 - 01:51 PM
kendall 29 Mar 00 - 02:45 PM
wysiwyg 29 Mar 00 - 02:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Mar 00 - 04:22 PM
MMario 29 Mar 00 - 04:28 PM
Caitrin 29 Mar 00 - 09:01 PM
The Beanster 29 Mar 00 - 10:09 PM
Midchuck 29 Mar 00 - 10:24 PM
The Beanster 29 Mar 00 - 10:42 PM
Kelida 29 Mar 00 - 11:06 PM
Wolfgang 30 Mar 00 - 03:33 AM
toogan 30 Mar 00 - 07:01 AM
toogan 30 Mar 00 - 07:11 AM
Chet W. 30 Mar 00 - 07:23 AM
wysiwyg 30 Mar 00 - 05:32 PM
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Subject: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 03:21 AM

You know, TTCM we don't really give a flying fuck at the moon what you think.............we are all here to have a good time, and you can just go play with yourself, becuz none of us are gonna pay attention to your rantings. And you have a nice day, now hear?


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: GUEST,TTCM
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 07:48 AM

''becuz none of us are gonna pay attention to your rantings. ''

Can you spell

C O N T R A D I C T I O N ?
<


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 08:12 AM

GUEST, I take issue with your speaking for all of us as well. I do care what TTCM thinks. I don't like the disruptions caused by how TTCM posts, and I have a lot of concerns about TTCM's motivations, but I am interested in what people think about things. I just wish that TTCM would go ahead and take out a membership and share in the general personal responsibility that go with membership. And I wish that TTCM's postings didn't make it so easy for many of us here to respond from our less tolerant sides.

TTCM, why do you NOT hop in? (I am really asking.)

~Susan~


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Homeless
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 08:16 AM

TTCM - as usual, it seems that someone speaking for "everyone" has an opinion that I don't share. I'd not seen the Mudcat before a month or so ago, so I don't know what it was like in the "old days." I do know that when I've asked a serious question and gotten smartass replies it's been rather aggravating. I don't know that much about music, and have trying to use this forum to further my education.

I've seen a few of your posts where you state what you think doesn't belong here. But I've not seen you ever state what does belong here, other than things should be music related. So now I ask... What, in your opinion, are appropriate topics for this forum?


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 08:23 AM

Homeless,

Before a flood of posts comes your way apologizing for past flip replies, which may or may not happen, may I say that when you get one it is fine to share your aggravation over it-- to post a restatement of the question with something like, "Hey! I really needed to know that!" We do kid around an awful lot but it isn't meant to be rude and if you don't give at least a tiny yelp when your toes get trounced, how will anyone know what effect they had?

I just mean to say, this place is your place too. This place was made for you and me. Make it work for you, too. Don't hold back just because you're new-- you'd be surprised how relatively new some of the *veterans* are too!

{:~*)

~Susan~


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: GUEST,TTCM
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 09:01 AM

Homeless and Praise,

While we like to see music-related postings, we are becomming more tolerant in terms of overall content.

Everything, in moderation however. (You listening MBO? By the way, had an awful nightmare the other night. Dreamt I once again heard you singing "The Night Barky Got Busted'' --bad enough, but to the melody of ''When Irish Eyes Are Smiling''.)

Those that insist on compulsive thread posting, just for ''recognition'' and ''atention'' annoy us the most, and those that patronize them, annoy us even more.

Some days it is harder to resist commenting than others.


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 09:54 AM

Indeed TTCM. Moderation and balance in all things not to mention respect for others views. I don't mind the "BS" posts although I rarely post to them myself. However, recently there has certainly been an increasingly attention-craving element to some posts, unfortunately sustained by certain others, and this has reduced to some extent my overall enjoyment of the Mudcat.

How cyberlife resembles real life...

All the best to all

mcmoo


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: GUEST,Mbo_at_ECU
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 10:15 AM

Thanks, TTCM! I never thought of using THAT as a tune! I'll have to try it!

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: MMario
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 11:06 AM

I will echo Praise's comments. I think most of us have experienced the witty but off topic or not so witty response to legitimate questions. But SOME of that is to refresh the thread so that those who DO have the answer will see it.


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Homeless
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 11:28 AM

Praise - For the most part, when I post a question it is to get it answered, not to have a conversation (I'm just not a very sociable person). I've noticed that every question will almost always draw a couple jokers, but most people will give a serious response to a serious question, in time. So rather than clutter up the thread with a re-statement or complaint (I don't really expect anyone will change their personality because I whine a little bit), I just wait and get my answers later.

MMario - I hadn't thought of the refresh reason for posting humor. I'll have to keep that in mind. BUT, I've seen a lot of banjo bashing and tin whistle remarks when a beginner asked a question. This isn't the kind of response that encourages someone who is trying to learn an instrument to hang around. The one thread I have in mind, of the first 10 responses, 9 of them were either "humor" or didn't address the question. Had I been the person posting the question, I wouldn't have hung around here anymore, and possible have thrown the tin whistle out.

TTCM - can you be a little more specific than "music related"? I have half a dozen instrument I mess with, none that I am competent with. I don't know much about folk music. Do my beginner's questions belong in this forum? Do you see this as a place to learn? a place to share? Is it about music, musicians, or instruments? Or just anything to do with music? Would a thread asking who Robert Johnson is be appropriate?


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: simon-pierre
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 11:38 AM

I don't know who started this, but if he don't want this TTCM hangin' around, he should not write his «name» in capital letters and dedicated a thread to it. I'm tired of it too; his post are pointless and, as Homeless said, not music related. We should avoid to speak with such «persons».

SP


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 11:41 AM

Homeless,

I can't of course answer for TTCM but ALL of questions above to my mind belong to this forum. And would elicit a constructive response from me if I saw them and felt I could help.

All the best

mcmoo


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: ceitagh
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 12:05 PM

Since I've only ever seen TTCM post flame, I hardly think he has the right to comment about "attention-getting" posters. There's C-O-N-T-R-A-D-I-C-T-I-O-N fer ya, TTCM. Although I must admit, you aren't trying very hard to make people like you.

May I suggest that the best way to steer the mudcat in whatever direction you wish would be to post on the topics you feel need posting and answer the questions you feel you can answer?

The BS threads are for the most part, clearly marked and can be avoided, and most questions do eventually seem to get answered....if someone knows the answer. It does take some patience, but the 'catters seem fairly good at at least considering each question. As for BS in serious threads...I have much less musical knowledge than do other 'catters, and am new...does that mean I should not post or try to get to know the other 'catters? I've learned something from every thread i've participated in, even the BS ones.

pax,
ceit


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Hollowfox
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 12:21 PM

Homeless, for Heaven's sake, please ask your "beginner" questions! everyone's a beginner at something. Some of the beginner questions get some of the most in-depth threads going around here. And that question is more likely to be something that somebody else always wondered about, than something that "everybody else knows". Besides, if somebody knows the answer, it gives them the chance to show off their knowledge a little by sharing it. BTW, I see the 'cat as something like a conversation with friends who share the same interest. Conversations like that include tangents, bad jokes, etc. nobody wrote a law saying that you have to read Every Thread. Why complain? If you don't want to read 'em, don't.


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: GUEST,aldus
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 01:00 PM

I have only two things to say, one is this...say what you wish to say...but be civil. Being disagreeable does not mean you have to be obnoxious....Rudeness is such a bore. secondly... beginners at anything are often the best teachers. I love the questions from people who are just learning instruments...makes you think about many basic concepts we who have been playing for awile may have forgotten . It is also great to see the variety of answers and advice...don't get discouraged by the rude people, ask away.


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Mooh
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 01:04 PM

Re: We don't give a flying fuck at the moon...

I haven't had a flying fuck, but I'd like to try it. Where can I get one, if you don't give 'em? Do I wear a parashute or a bungie cord? Is it expensive. Moonlight sounds like a romantic touch.


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 01:34 PM

"Can you spell?" writes TTCM

And then: "becomming", "atention"

Now I might well be the worst person around when it comes to missing typing mistakes. But if I were to send posts complaining about other people's spellings I think I'd be a bit more careful...

And I notice that our secretive critic is now "we" - Mark Twain once said in respect of editors and royalty saying "we" that the only individuals entitled to say "we" were people with tapeworms. So maybe that's what one of the Ts in TTCM stands for... The Tapeworm CurMudgeon maybe? or perhaps it's Threadworm?

The thing to remember, Homeless, is that threads on the Mudcat aren't just responses to the question asked. Any question also opens up a potential discussion or exploration around related matters. That can perhaps be irritating if you're trying to get an answer - but the chances are that sooner or later, and probably sooner, someone, or some several, will come up with a pretty useful answer.

What is more irritating, I suspect is when you post a question, and noone comes up with an answer, and the threads sinks like a lead balloon off the page. A few daft puns and cracks which serve to keep the thread in view until some knowledgeable sod gets to see it and chip in is a small price to pay, even if you don't like them.


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Homeless
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 02:22 PM

I realize that there's gonna be some drift in a thread of any length, and try to make my questions as specific as possible when I want to avoid that. And I know that there will be some jokers, and some people who just want to put their two cents in. But take this thread for instance. Of the 11 posts, 7 were within the first hour. You can't use the "refresh" excuse for that. And the post died the day after it was started. And more than half the posts in that thread were not directly helpful in answering the question.

I don't let anything stop me from posting or starting a new thread if I have a question. But something like the above would keep me from coming back the next time I have a question - I would feel like this was another worthless batch of information on the internet. (IMO the 'net is about worthless - it's got tons of information, but to weed thru all the bullshit to find what you want usually isn't worth the effort. )

Aldus - I think you would have to define civil before demanding that someone be that way. Personally, I don't think advice like "put it to your lips and blow" is very civil.

I don't see much difference between having to ignore posts with "obscene" words or personal attacks in them and having to ignore ones that are just wiseass remarks with only the vaguest of references to the thread topic(s). Personally, I'd like to see the majority of the BS kept in the BS threads. A simple "refresh" would be sufficient to put a thread back at the top of the list.

In defense of 'Catters, I've started two threads recently, both to do with song writing. The amount of information and personal views that I've gotten from them is great, and I've enjoyed reading both of them. Some of the other threads I've found either amusing or helpful.


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 03:24 PM

Homeless you've stated things reasonably well there. It comes back always and often to the question of balance. People clearly want to talk and want to talk about a variety of stuff, including music. Now and again things get out of whack, the BS, showoff posts and filler fluff seems to be all over everything and people get pissed off at having to pull on the hipwaders just get a simple answer. That being said flame posts are not a good way to shift the balance back again. Responding to flame posts just piles things higher and deeper. However when things are out of balance its hard to know what else to do. Simply starting more music related threads doesn't always work amongst compulsive posters, it just gives them another place to post. Long involved arguments about whether anything and everything is relevant please nobody but seem simply to confirm people in their idiosyncratic likes and dislikes. Perhaps the best response when everything seems to be going off the rails is a polite reposting of some general guidelines about posting. These are just some ideas about what could be said or asked of posters.

THINK before you post.

Is it relevant to the opening posting? If not, is it necessary to post? Has what you want to say already been said?

BS threads are clearly marked, would what you want to say be better said and understood in one of those?

Is what you are saying targetted to most mudcatters, or only to one or two special ones? You can send personal messages if you wish, that might be a better idea.


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: GUEST,TTCM
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 03:54 PM

Issues Addressed:

Homeless, we agree with McMoo. YOUR questions ARE relevant. Keep posting. Sift through the dreck, and you'll get the answers you want.

McGrath, just picked up a copy of the latest Webster's Dictionary and looked up a definition on the word perfection. Funny, there was no mention of your name, or an attached photo resembling you beside it. Our sincerest apologies on any mispelling in our messages, and any cognitive inconveniences it might have caused you.

simon-pierre''We should avoid to speak with such «persons».
We were particularly amused by YOUR example.




TTCM
--the other clique on Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 04:21 PM

TTCM, are you a member under another name?

~Susan~


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 04:35 PM

TTCM, would your tolerance level for spelling and grammatical errors go up if you realized that not all of those who post to this forum have English as their first language? If you honestly cannot understand what has been said because of the way in which it was mispelled then it is reasonable to ask a polite question for clarity.


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 04:38 PM

I think we should sic _gargoyle on 'im. All the best. Seamus


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 08:12 PM

I don't believe in perfection, "GUEST TTCM".I don't actually believe "correct spelling" is very important, either.(As anyone who reads what I post might suspect...)

But if you think spelling is so important that you complain about someone elses, you can't go in for multiple mispellings yourself, and then object that it's unreasonable to point them.

Well, you can, obviously, because you did. A bit hard to understand why, but then, there are so many things in this life which are hard to understand. Such as why someone might go to all that additional effort to make their missives impossible to read by using the smallest print size... TTFN, TCCM

And Homeless - I've just looked at that thread about tin whistles that you gave a link to. It seems quite a reasonable mix of helpful advice and a few joky posts and such. Hell, within half an hour, the second post, there was a helpful response. Of nine responses to the original question, I make it five were directly helpful, most of them very helpful. None of the other responses were in any way nasty in tone.

I really doubt that many people would be put off by getting that kind of responses to a question. You're probably right, and there are some. But I think there are more that find it attractive, and come back for more. Like me.


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Dulci46
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 08:27 PM

I just wish you would type big enough as to not strain the eyes when reading


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: GUEST, The Thread Watcher
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 08:53 PM

Indeed, Homeless, Keep posting.

But what is your complaint? Thread Creep, or not getting your answers quick enough?
I will remind you that this forum is a 24 hr. one with postings from all over the planet. Potentially this forum has some of the best 'heads' inside folk/blues, and I agree with TTCM that the forum of late has been taken up with needless shite (Don't mention the 'Healing threads'), but things have mellowed since.

Don't be dissappointed if you are not answered within the first hour or the first day. After all the bullshit and thread creep, where else would you get the answer? The fact that you've brought your request here implies that you haven't found your answer anywhere else.

Don't try and whip us into action on your behalf. Be cool, man


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 09:01 PM

And Homeless, for what it's worth, the "pucker up your lips and blow" is a famous line came from a Bette Davis movie, forget which one. Looks like the poster had her/his button pushed!


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Gary T
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 09:11 PM

I believe that "pucker up and blow" line is from "To Have and Have Not", with Lauren Bacall saying it to Humphrey Bogart.


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 01:14 AM

Here's how you do it:

{:~*)


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 03:26 AM

At the risk of being what my dear wife calls a pedantic old fart (it must have been her convent education!) it was Lauren Bacall in 'To have and Have Not' and the actual line went: "If you want me, just whistle. You know how to whistle don't you, just put your lips together and blow" (frequent film trivia question!).
RtS


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: GUEST,aldus
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 08:35 AM

erhaps our problem with civility is that too many people , like homeless,need to have it defined for them. Surely we do not have remind anyone that civility is to treat people with respect. Someone who can only address others by using the limited language of insult and childishness does not understand the concept of treating others with civility. Why is it that much disagreement between people devolves into a round of stupid remarks at sophmoric language. Most adults find this boring.


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: kendall
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 08:42 AM

Well said aldus. My take on it, is, respect, like charity, begins at home. If you have no respect for yourself, you can not have any for others. I sometimes see things here that make me want to break out the flame thrower, but, not enough to do it. Could it be testosterone poisoning? that would explain why it is men who do this sort of thing...


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Homeless
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 08:50 AM

I have my own ideas of civility, which go way beyond just "insult" and "sophmoric language." And for the most part are based on respect. But, IMO, respect includes giving a straight answer to a serious question. I work with a person who thinks that humor is the best approach for any situation. At a business meeting with the CEO of one of our clients, Tom would make jokes, and, when asked a question, the first 3 answers out of his mouth would be wise remarks. This really put the CEO off - he didn't appreciate the attitude. IMO, this was not being civil, i.e. not treating a client with the respect due his status. As a beginner, I think that I should deserve a certain amount of respect when asking a serious (tho maybe simple) question. If I were met with a bunch of smart remarks I would think it uncivil behaviour.

Parts of civility have to do with the situation/environment tho. I used to ride a '66 Sportster be a hangaround at a Harley custom shop, bars, etc. At those areas a vast amount of foul language was the norm. As an expected and accepted form of communication, that would be considered civil, in that setting.

Finally, it is implied that insults are not civil. Look at a large percentage of posts to Mbo. Not just the ones from TTCM, but from some of the other regular posters. Are these insults considered civil, or not? Unless I read a lot of threads in order to get a lot of exposure to the posters, how would I know that they are said in an affectionate way rather than malicious?


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 09:11 AM

Points well made Homeless. There often appears to be one rule for X and another for Y ...again cyberlife mirroring real life. I'm with you that respect also includes treating peoples' questions and views (however many times they are asked)with a degree of sensitivity. I'm no saint but that's what I try to do here. And I've usually received back respectful and helpful answers...including helpful posts from people generally regarded rude and malicious by certain others.

mcmoo


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Homeless
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 09:22 AM

McGrath, Thread Watcher - I will keep asking/posting. My complaint is that when I see a serious question asked, for educational purposes, a large number of the responses are of no consequence. They don't have to do with the question asked, they don't have to do with a topic the thread has drifted to, it's not another question to provoke thought. It's just "someone opening their mouth to hear themself talk." Due to the nature of the forum, I don't expect discussions to stay on topic, nor do I expect the answer right away. What I would expect is that a beginner's question or a guest be treated with some amout of respect by anyone responding to the question. A newcomer to this forum doesn't know the rules. I've been around a month now, and didn't know until yesterday that "humor" is used to refresh a thread. Maybe rules, expectations, a generalization of the kind of personalities you'll find here is something that should go in the FAQ?

Aldus - Perhaps our problem with civility is that too many people refuse to define it. There are how many billion people in this world? How many different definitions of "civil" are appropriate? Based on your posts, I think my definition of civil is even narrower than your own. Maybe, in TTCM's opinion, (s)he is being civil. I don't agree. But there are a large number of 'regular' posters that I don't think are being civil. I don't really expect that everyone can agree on a definition of "civil" (Hell, y'all can't even agree on a definition for "folk" or "musician"), but to tell someone that they have to be civil without giving them concrete examples of what is or is not acceptable is not affording them the respect due a student.

Ebbie, Gary T, RtS - OK, knowing now that there was a movie with that line in it, the comment doesn't come across quite so rude. But I've never heard of that movie let alone seen it. To assume that the original poster is aware of that bit of trivia, IMO, is not treating him/her with respect. (To avoid confusion of that sort, I, personally, surround a direct quote with quotation marks.)


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: alison
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 09:35 AM

We were told off for another whistle question recently because the answers were too serious and straight to the point, (links of where to find help etc)... (the telling off happened in another thread) the person concerned wanted the chatty, responses, and was miffed not to have got them...... pity the two threads weren't swapped then both people would have been happy....... you can't please everybody.....

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: GUEST,aldus
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 12:39 PM

Bad language in a bike shop may be the Norm in that environment...but it is not civil...it is merely the norm...One of the things that seems to allow bad behaviour is the rather facile excuse that it is "the norm" in certain situations. When are we going to realize that we cannot allow disrespect for others on the basis that it is a "norm" in some situations.


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: GUEST,aldus
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 12:43 PM

Bad language in a bike shop may be the Norm in that environment...but it is not civil...it is merely the norm...One of the things that seems to allow bad behaviour is the rather facile excuse that it is "the norm" in certain situations. When are we going to realize that we cannot allow disrespect for others on the basis that it is a "norm" in some situations. as for a definition of civility....that is another one of those feeble thoughts of the "i Can't do it because I don"t know what it is variety" . Do we need a precise definition of common sense as well ?


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Mbo
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 12:54 PM

Alison, that "person" was Ceit and I fully agree with her. I probably would have expected what she did. The great thing about Mudcat is that it's an interactive learning place--sure, giving someone the dry old references is fine, but it's similar to saying "We've already discussed this, and we all know it, so here's a book you can go read, because we really don't want to cover that ground again." Mudcat IS interactive, so I would have expected personal opinions and suggestions too. Also, there are new Mudcatters joining everyday...I'm sure some of the newer folks would have liked to have added their own opinions & thoughts, since they may not of had the chance to participate in the earlier threads, like me. Just be friendly and helpful. Some may say it's a waste of time, but when a poster asks a question, and gets a pretty much straight answer, I always tried to add to it (even if it is wasting bandwidth) my own comments or feelings, to let the person know that we are more than just straight-shooting question-answering machines. I also like to add the same types of things to the oft overlooked Lyric Add threads, to make the posters feel a little more welcome for taking the time to impart this to us. But, then again, only my opinion.

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Homeless
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 12:57 PM

Define disrespect. I think that insulting someone, jokingly or not, is disrespectful. I think that trying to impose your standards on somebody else is disrespectful. I think that cluttering up a conversation with inane babble is disrespectful. I think that someone telling me that my opinion is invalid is disrespectful. And those go for any situation - not just this forum.

If you equate respect with civility, then based on only those four things I've stated above, I'd guess roughly half the posts I've read here are not civil.

If "bad" language is not civil ever, what of a preacher who says "damn" or "Hell" in a sermon? Is that uncivil?

Something about some of the responses I've gotten in this thread remind me of the book "Animal Farm."


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: ceitagh
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 12:58 PM

Alison's got a good point (i should know, i was the other tin whistle person). It's impossible to know what a newbie, or for that matter a regular, wants or considers civil. Personally, I joined the 'cat because of the sense of community and fun, and when i only got straight reference answers to my question i felt i was being brushed off. Since then, i've discovered the BS threads and am having the time of my life, but it should be kept in mind that there is no one right way of responding to things...which is as it should be. There is a nice mixture of informative/fun posts, and there should be something for everybody on the 'cat....if they have the patience to sort thru for what they're looking for.

Pax,
ceit


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Homeless
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 01:05 PM

Aldus - yes, I think that we should have a very specific definition of common sense. Most people I meet don't seem to either have or use common sense. It's become downright uncommon. We should also have definitions for civil, respect, courtesy, chivalry, rational, helpful, etc. I think it says a lot (and not flattering) about our society that those things don't have a common, well-known definition. For two people to communicate, they need to have the same definition for a word.

I find it very insulting that you refer to one of my thoughts as "feeble." Is that how that was intended?


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 01:06 PM

So right, guys. It was Bacall. Thanks for the correction. As far as civility is concerned, I grew up in a home where as long as it was witty, the malicious or vicious remark was forgiven. Took me years to learn to button my lip. Is it possible that some who post these hackle-raisers are 1)trying for attention and 2)making a stab at humor?


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: MMario
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 01:13 PM

it's possible. For some of them, given the choice of location, timing and aim, it is not probable.

In my opinion, of course.


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Amos
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 01:16 PM

Aw, Homeless, mate, lighten up a little. We all have feeble thoughts. Dozens of mine are so feeble I would be ashamed to let 'em out ofmy mouth, and whren I do I can only be thankful that I have a relatively forgiving environment in which so to do, here at the 'Cat.

A large part of civility, but not its underlying compassion, is culturally defined. Mores differ, and in some places refusing to fart is an insult, while in others letting yourself do so is offensive.

So you walk in slowly 'til you learn the rhythm and the ambience of the place you're walking into. We always cut slack around here, and give folks the benefit of the doubt, and try not to be too precious or fragile ourselves, cuz those things cut communication. Bristling won't help, but continuing to communicate always will, especially since your posts here are so valuable.


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: GUEST,Wavestar
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 01:22 PM

Homeless-

I know what you mean about getting tired of jokey responses when what you want is the answer, it can be very frustrating. On the other hand, I'd say you are very distinctly acting like you have no sense of humour. If the only responses I ever got here were dry and informational, I would be thoroughly overwhelmed by the amount of knowledge that Mudcatter's have, and feel very much like my silly little questions were wasting thier time. Like the post that Alison mentiond, I would feel as if what I was thinking about had already been discussed into the ground, and was no longer interesting. I looked at the tinwhistle thread you brought up, and must agree that almost all the responses are mostly helpful, if not directly, they are interesting and on subject. Whistle-stop's remark was a bit smart ass, but also forgiveable... and aren't we all big kids here, to not shy away from a bit of language now and then, and mature enough to laugh at ourselves?

Oh.. and aren't you trying to impose YOUR standards on everyone else here? I don't see your Orwellian connection.

-J


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Dan K (inactive)
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 01:33 PM

Perhaps one of the easiest ways to avoid hurt feelings and driving people off the 'Cat is to not hide behind the computer. I think wit is a grand way to communicate but I also think it has to be tempered with some wisdom. I try not to say anything online that I wouldn't say to someone's face. Its my rule of thumb and has served me well. Dan Keding


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 01:45 PM

Amos, you took the words out of my mouth: "Aw, Homeless, mate, lighten up a little"

And Homeless - "I think that cluttering up a conversation with inane babble is disrespectful. I think that someone telling me that my opinion is invalid is disrespectful."

Don't you think there's a contradiction between those two sentences? You dismiss what other people say as "inane babble", so see that as a "respectful" thing to say - and then say that "invalid" is "dispespectful.

And that's not me being disrespectful. It's me suggesting that you are being dispespectful. I happen to agree that we shouldn't be disrespectful of each other, and that when we are we threaten the fragile ecology of the Mudcat Oasis.

Respecting each other means accepting that we don't all have exactly the same sense of humour. (Especially when we are not in a business meeting.) Which is hardly surprising since we are scattered all over the planet. (And I think some of us may be from further affield still...)

I'm reminded of the stories about how different cultures have different assumptions about what is the right and polite distance to stand from someone you are talking to. Get two people from cultures with differentideas about that at an international meeting of some kind, and the ones who think it's polite to stand 18 inches apart pursue the retreating two-foot aparters around the room.

That kind of thing desn't mean people are being unfriendly, it just means we aren't all the same. The more variety the better. Deliberate nastiness is the only variety that doesn't belong (except that there's no way to keep it out sometimes, sadly).


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Homeless
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 01:51 PM

Aw cripes, I just wrote a rather lengthy post, and then got an error in the browser. I ain't gonna re-write the whole thing...

Alright, I'll let the whole thing drop. I seem to be turning people against me rather than making my point. The real bitch is that what y'all are telling me (Amos, McGrath) are the points that I was trying to make.

Apologies to anyone I may have offended. I wasn't trying to sound like a prick.

Adieu


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: kendall
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 02:45 PM

OK here's my tuppence worth.. respect for others is like well..manners. Manners is nothing more than making an effort to make another comfortable, or, at least, not making them UNcomfortable. Homeless makes a valid point about getting a smart ass answer instead of the info wanted. But, at the same time, there is a lot of banter here, and maybe Homeless wasn't ready for it yet being new to the mudcat. I've noticed that since I was much younger, there has been a serious decline in civility, and I see that as a damn shame. At a roundabout in Edinburg Scotland, I made a dumb move and pulled out in front of a truck. The driver didnt blow his horn and give me the amputees peace sign, no. he simply waved. We both knew it was stupid.It has been many years since I've seen this behavior in the USA. sigh.


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 02:54 PM

Homeless,

I would just ask you to consider that a large number of intelligent, caring people were moved to continue communicating over these matters with you... and that it is very likely that others read all of this with great interest but did not post... and that many of these issues will continue to be reflected upon by a large percentage of these people.

What you have said here may have more eventual impact than it might feel like based on the actual written responses. You see you made all of your points so... cogently, that they will now be part of the common culture of the people who are the Mudcat right now... which now includes you... and which is a new creation every day as well as a result of its past selves.

So... give it time. Give it time, for you to sink into us and for us to sink into you until there is no you and us, just a bigger us... by which time there will be more new folks in need of a helping hand. And you'll be an old habd of some 6 weeks' membership who tries to use whatever wisdom or caring or knowledge you have to make the best use of this place as possible. Which is what we all do.

And you know what? The kind of interaction people need is so completely varied... you can use your sensitivity to discover what kinds of interaction various people here want, and what kind you want, and go with that! You can be proactive about it. You can start things the way you want to start them and stick with them to lend them the air you think they should have.

It seems REAL strange to say this to someone who chose the name Homeless-- but hey. MAKE YOURSELF AT HOME, mi casa su casa, maybe you have a home here... all of that stuff.

~Susan~


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 04:22 PM

This business of people apologising when they've gone over the top, or whatever, is a new develiopment here, at least in the time I've been visiting (since September, I think). I like it, and it's already done a lot to restore civility. Of course the few really offensive people don't apologise, but you wouldn't expect them to.

Anyway, thanks Homeless, and I echo Praise's comments.


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: MMario
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 04:28 PM

Homeless, it's been a good thread. Opinions will, as opinions are wont to do, run the complete spectrum.


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Caitrin
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 09:01 PM

I can take some good-natured teasing. I'm used to that. Like Ebbie, I've grown up in a family where people tease all the time, and I've had to learn the hard way when to keep my mouth shut. (Of course, I still mess up every now and then.) However, I don't think there's any excuse for the rudeness that occasionally crops up. Direct flaming and insults are completely uncalled for. I may not like what another poster says, but that does not give me the right to verbally evicerate him or her. I think Dan's suggestion of not posting anything you wouldn't say to someone's face has definite merit.


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: The Beanster
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 10:09 PM

This thread has grown like a weed since I first checked on it! LOL Interesting stuff.

Homeless is my pal. A few weeks back when I chastised someone for being too "touchy," Homeless was very helpful in giving me another perspective regarding this person's reply and ever since then, I've been much more tolerant of folks whose posts I perceive to be "uncivil" or bordering on that. I think Homeless values harmony and I believe that's an admirable trait.

Anyway, as I've seen in my (limited) experience here, the printed word can come across as very hard-edged and sometimes, it's not meant that way at all. Sometimes, it is meant that way but we all know there are bitter, narcissistic a..holes among us (very few, IMO) and the best remedy for someone seeking negative attention is to pay NO attention.

I don't think this subject needs to be drummed into the ground this way and I, for one, have (or at least should have) (lol) better things to do than to contribute to it but I appreciate the opportunity to do just that. I may step on people's toes sometimes (as we all may) but members of the same community should forgive each other's short-comings. After all, these are not capital crimes, here.

The motto I adopted at 5-years-old is: do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I don't always succeed but I try to keep that in mind always/all ways. So there's my bit of drivel for this evening. :)


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Midchuck
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 10:24 PM

Part of the problem relates to the Original Cliche of the western novel/movie, as first stated in Owen Wister's The Virginian:

"When you call me that, smile!"

On the internet, not only does no one know that you're a dog, no one can tell if you're smiling or not. So things not intended as insults get taken wrongly. Unless you love putting little smileys in your text (which I find rather inane) you have to be very careful not to say anything you don't want taken literally.

This is something I trip up on often, since I tend to use a lot of sarcasm - gently intended sarcasm, but sarcasm - in real-world speech. I assume others have the same problem.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: The Beanster
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 10:42 PM

Midchuck Peter,

If you'll notice, I put a smiley in my text right above yours. (!) heheheee I agree, they are inane and juvenile--sort of like dotting your i's with little hearts or something. That's why I keep saying there should be a special font to be used for good-natured teasing or sarcasm. Many unintentionally hurt feelings would be spared. I too, am sarcastic in real life and sometimes I'll type something into the response box, read it back and to someone who doesn't know me from a hole in the wall, it would sound awful. So I backspace and clean up my act. Pain in the neck. But as you say, one does have to be careful...


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Kelida
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 11:06 PM

I'm new here, but I have found the Mudcat very helpful and informative. My first post was a lyrics request (I think it was, anyway) and it was responded to with links to lyrics for that song as well as links to sound files for it, and I thought this was sufficient.

However, that was basically what I was asking for. It was a straightforward question that recieved straightforward answers. I recieved the information that I wanted with the least amount of trouble possible. I think the responses you recieve depend on the question you ask and the way you ask it.

If I asked a question about songwriting, I would expect posts to be more lengthy perhaps or at least more chatty depending on what exactly the question was. A certain amount of BS (loosely used term in this case) is expected in a "chatty" answer, but if people are joking in their response it should be obvious, and they should probably also include a serious answer.

On the respect thing--

In my opinion, respect is a really subjective topic. Obviously, what some people consider respect may not be taken the same by other people.

My best friend and I sometimes taunt each other mercilessly, but I would never act that way with someone I haven't known for almost 10 years and I would certainly never act that way to an adult.

The problem is that there is no way to judge what may or may not be considered offensive by people. This carries over to all aspects of society. Most notable is the sexual harassment taking place in workplaces everywhere. "Sensitivity training" teaches that even the simple act of asking someone out on a date may be sexual harassment.

On the internet, this is even harder to judge. Some people are offended by curse words, but others are offended by a sarcastic or joking comment that is taken the wrong way. There is just no way of telling.

I think the best advice to use is to get to know people before joking or being even gently sarcastic with them. Don't say anything you wouldn't say to someone's face, and definitely don't say anything that you know might offend people.

Respectfully, Keli


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 03:33 AM

I'm with you here, homeless, the points you mention are the ones that annoy me too.
As for TTCM, I'm sure (s)he's a regular in disguise. I do not at all like the way (s)he makes a point or (ab)uses the language, but (s)he's obviously annoyed by a too large number of BS postings (as I am), for the posters (s)he singles out for flames are those with an extremely low music-to-BS ratio in their postings.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: toogan
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 07:01 AM

Oh please Mudcatters - TTCM is just stirring the possum. Let's just ignore it - as we say in Oz, don't get your knickers in a knot. On a serious note - I also subscribe to a list called "vocalist.org" which focusses on "classical" singing. Many times I don't read a lot of the posts on it because there are a lot of wanky type people writing "I don't think this question/comment whatever should be on this list because we are dedicated to......etc." and using lots of smiley symbols to finish nasty comments. I go to the Mudcat site in relief thinking - sensible or silly, at least it's honest and tolerant. Please don't change!


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: toogan
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 07:11 AM

I couldn't be bothered reading all of the postings on this issue, but could I suggest that there is a bit of stirring the possum happening here? I hope Mudcatters don't get bogged down in this silliness. I also subscribe to another forum called "vocalist.org" which is for "classical"singers. Go visit this one to see how people can get bogged down in their egos,discussing whether or not certain topics should be listed, ending their nasty comments with silly symbols :) which are supposed to take the sting out of their comment. I agree with one of the mudcatters, that you shouldn't write what you wouldn't dare say face to face. I love the Forum, I enjoy the humour, genuine goodwill displayed, and the silliness at times.

So, don't get your knickers in a knot gang!


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Chet W.
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 07:23 AM

Every time this sort of thing comes up I feel like I'm back in elementary school. To the angry ones above, enjoy, and do let us know who gets the most cookies!

Chet


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Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 05:32 PM

TTCM,

Regarding you message in the other thread.

I have no desire to debate with you. I would however welcome an opportunity to discuss a number of matters that appear to interest you greatly.

Speaking of interest-- isn't it INTERESTING that you use a phrase nearly identical to one I used, to communicate exactly the same concept, toward someone who flamed me in a personal message awhile back????

So we are in agreement that whatever discourse occurs will be in the open. Good. I welcome it.

To hold up your end, however, you're going to need to lose some stereotypes. Oh I'm sure there are MANY that DO apply to me, but you see you have picked the wrongest ones possible!!! If you knew me, in fact, we'd probably end up as running buddies! LOL.

Well I hope you'll write. Flames and all, if that is your choice. But out here, as you've said.

~Susan~


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