Origin: Ride a Cock Horse to Banbury Cross

Subject: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: GUEST,T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 02:02 PM

Does anyone know anything about the history (where first documented, where different versions may be found) of the song that begins "Ride a cock horse to Banbury Cross" ?

If it has a title different from its first line, I'd like to know that title, too.

Thanks,

T.

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: Bert
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 02:30 PM

You'll find a discussion of the songhere

Bert.

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 02:43 PM

Hi, T -
The version I learned is

Ride a cock horse to Banbury Cross
To see a fine lady upon a white horse;
Rings on her fingers and bells on her toes,
And she shall have music wherever she goes.

The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes (Iona & Peter Opie, 1951, 1997) gives this and two other versions, all from the 18th century. They note that some versions describe the lady as old and the horse as black, and the destination as Coventry Cross.
Here are the other versions:

Ride a cock horse to Banbury Cross
To buy little Johnny a galloping horse;
It trots behind and it ambles before,
And Johnny shall ride till he can ride no more.
    (sung while 'galloping' a baby on the knee)


Ride a cock horse
To Banbury Cross
To see what Tommy can buy;
A penny white loaf,
A penny white cake,
And a two-penny apple pie.

The notes after that third version are fascinating: The pastry cake of Banbury has been renowned for several centuries. 'Banberie cakes' are referred to in 1586. Their ingredients are mixed peel, biscuit crumbs, currants, allspice, eggs, and butter, folded into a circle of puff pastry. And very good they are, too. When in Banbury it was well worth visiting 12 Parson's Street, 'the original Banbury Cake shop,' to try one.
This book is fascinating. I may post more later. No, I gotta do it now....
The Opies guess the song comes from the 15th century, since the cross at Banbury was destroyed at the turn of the 16th century. A Jesuit priest wrote in 1601, "The inhabitants of Banbury being far gone in Puritanism, in a furious zeal tumultuously assailed the Cross that stood in the market place, and so defaced in that they scarcely left one stone standing upon another."
The term cock-horse has always been used to describe a proud, high-spirited horse. To "ride a cock horse" is usually taken to refer to straddling a toy horse (or grown-up's knee) and is found used in this sense since 1540.
It has been suggested that "bells on her toes" points to the 15th century, when a bell was worn on the long tapering toe of each shoe.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 02:46 PM

I thought there had been a previous discussion of this song - but I searched for "cock horse" and "Banbury."
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 02:47 PM

thanks, bert.

I have always imagined that a "cock horse" was a horse with its mane bound with ribbons so that it resembled a cock's comb.

T.

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 02:53 PM

Joe, thanks for your info.

The marketplace in Banbury might still have been called "Banbury Cross" even after the cross was knocked down: force of habit. So the song needn't derive from when the cross still stood.

Are not ankle-bells (as sometimes worn by morris-dancers) somtimes spoken of as being "on the toes" ?

T.

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 03:28 PM

Hi, T - the Opies go on to say that the cross was indeed located in the marketplace at Banbury, and that it was replaced at a later time. Their written sources for the song go back to the early part of the 18th century.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: kendall
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 05:07 PM

I still say it is CORK horse

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 06:02 PM

Have you always lived in Maine, Kendall?
<grin>
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: kendall
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 09:18 PM

All except 9 months in Mass. why?

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 03:48 AM

Remember how you learned this song, Kendall - I'll bet you didn't see this song in print until 20 years after you learned it. Oral tradition allows for a wider variation in interpretations of words in a song. You Mainers do have a bit of an unusual way with your words, so certainly you'd have an interesting variation on this.
How was it you pronounce the names of those towns up north, like Lubec and Calais, eh? Even Bangor is a bit different than the way the rest of us would pronounce it.
Ayup. There's a difference. A very nice difference, but a difference nonetheless.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: kendall
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 08:22 AM

But, Joe, CORK horse makes sense..cock horse doesn't!! cork is a type of wood. Just the stuff to make a rocking horse out of. What sort of horse could one make of..cock??

This rhyme originated in England, now, in both England and Maine, the letter "r" is silent except when appearing as the first letter of a word.

I must admit that we do have an unusual way of speaking, but, By the Jesus chummy, we can spell!! LOL

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: Bert
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 11:59 AM

Kendall, I searched the web to see if I could find a picture of one for you. BIG MISTAKE, do NOT search the web for 'cock horse'.

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: MMario
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 12:15 PM

Kendall - I think you're going to lose on this one..."Ride a cock horse" has a very specific usage documented back to 1540 (see above if you don't believe me) and a general usage prior to that.

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: Bert
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 12:16 PM

Here's a picture of one.

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: kendall
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 02:49 PM

That is advertised as a "stick" horse, not cock???

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: kendall
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 02:54 PM

Lookie, I'm not above learning something, but, the argument I put forth for "cork" horse still makes more sense (to me) than "cock" horse. This is a childs toy for Pete's sake..cock horse?? Does it refer to a dick or a rooster? or, maybe a rooster named dick...

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: MMario
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 03:08 PM

But Kendall - stick horses have been known (it is a documented fact) as "cock horses" for at LEAST 460 years. And "cock horse" make a lot of sense when you look at one being ridden in profile.

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: kendall
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 03:58 PM

But, little girls rode them too!!! and, the horses..oh shit. Ok, I give up. I'll have to admit you have a point, but, geez children and cocks?? not in my back yard lol

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: Bert
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 04:04 PM

It refers to a dick. The kid sits astride the stick, with the wheels on the ground behind him and the head held up in front. The stick is then in just the right position to give the horse it's name. I'd never heard of them being called stick horses 'till I went looking for one on the web.

We learned it in school when we were kids (it seems like 460 years, but it's not quite that long ago;-). I guess by the time we learned the meaning, we were too old to play with one anyway (cock horse, that is).

If it offends your sensibilities feel free to sing..

'Ride a stick horse to Banbury cross' ;-)

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: MMario
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 04:12 PM

well - Kendall, the other thing is that the original meaning of "cock horse" - an animal with spirit and fight, like a cock - meaning ROOSTER

[gad, people around here have filthy minds.]

according to some the euphimism,[for it WAS one, though not now,] came into use because of stick horses, rather then stick horses becoming known due to their resemblence...

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: kendall
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 06:45 PM

OK Mario, you just made a sensible point. I leave the field..A wise person once said "He who can say, "I was mistaken," can also say, "I know more than I did before."Young whippersnappers, gotta watch 'em every minute, grumble grumble..

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: kendall
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 06:46 PM

And, Joe, I still spell better than most of you LOL

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 07:17 PM

The previous thread had "white horse" in the thread title, as I recall.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: Megan L
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 12:16 PM

Cock or cockrell the toy in the rhyme gets its name from the comb on top of a cockrells head which is slender when viewed from the front but quite impressive to a hen (so I am told) when viewed side on.

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: Bert
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 12:22 PM

Gawd! the lengths people will go to, to avoid the very thought that a cock might just be a 'cock'.

If you come across a usage in England that might be interpreted as bawdy or might have sexual connotations, you can pretty much guarantee that it was intentional.

That's why there are so many pubs named 'The Cock Inn' or 'The Bush' or 'The Dun Cow'

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: MMario
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 12:36 PM

bert - according to a class I took during college, "cock" for penis is a relativly new usage in English. ONLY about 3 or 4 hundred years. "prick" is much older. And yes, many people will do anything to avoid direct or even indirect sexual connotations. In English, it can be difficult, as among all the languages on earth it has the highest amount of double meanings and sexual connotations.

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 12:37 PM

Have y'all noticed that I have stayed completely out of this? Do you realize how much self-control this has taken? Proves that I am not the ONLY ONE around here!!! I want a reward!!!

WHAT DO YOU MEAN, NO REWARD???????

Aw, you guys can just suck my cork.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: Bert
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 12:41 PM

cork? Spaw! That's about the size of it;-)

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 01:26 PM

Well there's corks and there's corks Bert and I think that they all have their uses. I mean there's MY CORK and then there's YOUR CORK and then there's kendall's cork. Unfortunately, none of this goes far toward determining what a Cork Horse would be and how it would differ from a Cock Horse.

Kendall, do people in Maine ever take their clothes off?

Just wonderin'........

Spaw

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 02:44 PM

At least two modern songs have allusions to this rhyme:

"Scarlet Begonias", by Robert Hunter and Jerry Garcia, has the following:

She had rings on her fingers and bells on her shoes,
And I knew without askin' she was into the blues

"The Flycatcher", by Roy Harper, has this verse:

As I walked over North Botley copse
I saw a fine lady ghost across the tops
With a ring on her finger and the winds on her toes
She can have music wherever she goes

T.

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 02:44 PM

could it be because the stick portion of a stick horse is cocked when in use?

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: Pontiac Joe
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 03:00 PM

Boy, what a great thread! I could listen to this for weeks.

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: Bert
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 03:03 PM

Yes Dick, and so is a 'cock'

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 03:10 PM

I guess that throws the whole thing in a cocked hat, which is the most disgusting thing I can think of! Is that one of those fedoras that guys walk out of the porn theatres with, hanging on their laps?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: Bert
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 03:38 PM

BAWDY WARNING!!!!

Remember that verse that went...

Father O'Flaherty he was there
Can you imagine that
amusing himself by abusing himself
and catching it in his hat.

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: kendall
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 03:41 PM

Spaw, of course we do..how else would we keep the population at 1 million? Why is it always 1 million? because every time a baby is born, some guy leaves town.

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: Penny S.
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 04:04 PM

http://www.mudcat.org/Detail.CFM?messages__Message_ID=187693

There were a coiuple of differences in the title harpgirl used.

And I've known the toy item as a hobby-horse - though probably erroneously.

Penny

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 04:10 PM

No Penny, I have always called them hobby horses too. But I must say, that's an interesting adjective too.

Course, I've known some who have had cocks for a hobby, but I don't think that explains it either.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: MMario
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 04:11 PM

no - hobby horse is perfectly correct. But so is "cock horse" or "Stick horse"

I've also heard them called "Mummer's Mounts" "Morris Mounts" and "Stickmen's Ponies"

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: Bert
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 04:13 PM

There are two different 'Hobby Horses' One is an early bicycle without pedals. The other is a costume worn by Morris Dancers (and others) here

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 04:28 PM

A bicycle with no pedals huh? Probably a real rocket downhill, but, uh.........British invention is it Bert?

and the guy in the photo..........is the "horse" suspended or resting on ....something. I could see the cock horse thing then for sure.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: Penny S.
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 04:47 PM

The guy is standing. The skirt of the horse is decorated with two little stuffed legs hanging down as if they were his and he was riding. The horse has only two legs. His.

The Padstow 'Obby 'Oss in Cornwall is a much more frightening animal, bigger and more threatening. It is a definite fertility symbol, and used to chase girls who could be, I have read, dragged under the skirt, which was covered with tar. Tar stains were supposed to guarantee child bearing later in the year. How that fits the theme above I leave to others.

I felt pretty threatened as a child by the Kentish 'ooden 'orse, a hand operated head with snapping jaws, used for collecting the beer money, but reminiscent of the crocodile in Punch and Judy.

The bicycle was definitely a British development - I believe by a Scottish engineer. The pre-pedal version was ridden by running with a striding, gliding motion either side, and was used by the fashionable, in the manner of skateboards or roller-blades. Like any fad, it didn't last, possibly because the supply of flat ground wasn't great enough. But it was a necessary precursor to the pedalled bike. Scoff if you want, it was probably good exercise! Better than that hamster kit in the gym.

Penny

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: Bert
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 05:13 PM

Yep Spaw, AND it didn't have any brakes.

When they first added pedals to the front wheel, they found that the gearing was too low so they made the front wheel larger. And thus the Penny-Farthing or 'ordinary' bicycle was born.

Gearing on bicycles is, to this day, measured in 'inches', the equivalent size of the front wheel on an ordinary.

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: Jo Taylor
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 06:21 PM

Here are a couple of variants:
Ride a cock-horse
To Banbury Cross,
To see what Tommy can buy;
A penny white loaf,
A penny white cake,
And a two-penny apple-pie.

Ride a cock-horse to Banbury Cross,To buy little Johnny a galloping horse
To buy little Johnny a galloping horse;
It trots behind and it ambles before,
And Johnny shall ride till he can ride no more

From a website about Banbury:
"It seems likely that the rhyme originated at the latest in The 16th Century, and very probably much earlier. The original cross at Banbury stood in the Market Place, and was built of stone with steps surrounding it. The tall shaft carried carvings and a crucifix. It was destroyed by Puritans in July 1660, because they thought that it attracted superstitious veneration from the people. A Jesuit priest in 1601 wrote, "The inhabitants of Banbury being far gone in Puritanism, in a furious zeal tumultuously assailed the cross that stood in the Market Place, and so defaced it, that they scarcely left one stone upon the other.

The term 'a cock-horse', has been variously used to describe a proud, high-spirited horse, the additional coach horse used when going up a hill, and the name for toy, or hobby-horse.

Finally, we come to the 'fine lady' finely dressed and parading about on a white horse. W.Potts in his book "A History of Banbury", thinks that the rhyme may be echoing back to pagan times. In pre-Christian times a young girl, representing the Earth goddess would ride around the fields hoping to increase their fertility. A sacred tree would be set up in the village and the people would sing and dance around it. Once Christianity had arrived, the tree was replaced with the May-Pole, the Earth goddess with the May Queen, and the festival now took place on 1st May."

And another:
Desert Orchid for hobby horse festival?
Britain's first-ever festival of hobby horses is being planned for the Oxfordshire town of Banbury - and there'll be no shortage of troughs in the town. But they'll be filled with flowers.

The festival theme is being picked up by the award-winning organisers of Banbury in Bloom, who plan to have horse-shaped planters and appropriate floral displays in the streets.

Banbury was the national runner-up in the large towns section of the 1999 Britain in Bloom contest, having won the South East title the year before.

Toni Magean, who's co-ordinating the floral fiesta, is hoping the horse theme will help win the first prize in 2000.

He thinks judges will appreciate the link to the town's famous "Ride a cock horse" nursery rhyme - which was the inspiration for the new event.

The Beasts Around Banbury Cross festival is due to take place on the weekend of July 1 and 2, 2000.

Members of Adderbury Morris Men and Bloxham Morris are helping to organise the event, and a number of morris creatures are expected to attend. The Outside Capering Crew is bringing four tourney-style horses.

Sandy Glover of the United Fools' Union, which also includes beasts of disguise in its membership, is hosting one of two web sites for the event.

Funding is being sought for a professional sculptor to work with schoolchildren to create a giant processional beast.

And Toni Magean has begun devising a floral hobby horse, to be shown off around north Oxfordshire.
Festival organisers are delighted with the Britain in Bloom link. "Perhaps it's too much to hope that we'll be able to feature Desert Orchid - either the flower or the racehorse," said a spokesman, "but we note that Jackstraws Morris has a beast called Daisy....."

And from a Coventry site:

clicky
Coventry's famed cross found its way into the nursery rhyme books, it is believed before the Banbury Cross rhyme:
Ride a cock horse to Coventry Cross,
To see what Emma can buy,
A penny white cake,
I'll buy for her sake,
And a two penny tart or a pie.

I always understood it to mean a stallion - a cock-horse, as in "cock-sparrow" - not always used for male birds; male lobsters and salmon are also cocks...

Jo

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: kendall
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 07:12 PM

there is also a cock hake.

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 07:46 PM

Another interpretation: "a-cock-horse" is an adverb. To "ride a-cock-horse" means (in a childish context) "travel on your parents' lap".

T.

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 08:15 PM

Yeah T, I can see how that would work.....especially if your Old Man is a pedophile.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: kendall
Date: 31 Mar 00 - 11:15 AM

WHALE OIL BEEF HOOKED!!

Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 31 Mar 00 - 12:13 PM

If you want a phrase to exercise your speculative abilities, try the Irish tune "Cock Up Your Beavers"