Modes for Mudcatters: A Synthesis Primer

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 05:37 PM

Mary, try looking at the name of the tune and see if that gives you any ideas. (If you saved it from earlier, click again - I changed the name.) As for further hints, you'd better PM me because I think I may be making a pain of myself. (And I don't want you to flame me publicly when you figure it out. ;-) There are two hints in my last message.

I think the tune is in Mixolydian mode. It's actually hexatonic. Thing is, it sounds an awful lot like Asian pentatonic music, and I wonder if the pentatonic scale we're discussing is in Myxolodian and just leaves out certain notes. I think this may explain why some western music sounds like some Asian music. (Please note, I don't know much about theory, and I'm posting very simplistic opinion based on the way the music sounds to me.)

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Peter T.
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 05:16 PM

I agree with MTed about the conflicting use of "modes" language issue in all these books. How to drive people insane to no purpose.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 04:14 PM

Okay, I think I understand what you're saying, M.Ted, but fretted instruments like your standard banjo and guitar are even- or well-tempered. We couldn't play in a non-well-tempered-based scale or "mode" if we wanted to.

As for singing unaccompanied in a non-well-tempered-based scale, wouldn't that be something that you have to have an "ear" for, which you could only get from hearing somebody else sing in such a scale? Where can we hoi polloi go to find such a thing?

Alex

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 03:39 PM

I think that we should look really carefully at what Dick has said here, because, as he says, all of these explanations of modes relies on tempered scales, and modes, in the sense of folk music and early music, really have nothing to do with the tempered scale--

The tempered scale is an artificial device that was introduced into Western Classical Music relatively recently, and really evolved from modes--the modal scale had irregular intervals--for instance, the interval between D and A was a perfect fifth, but the interval between A and E wasn't, and because the scale was not chromatic, it wasn't possible to play, say, an Ionian mode, starting on any other step of the scale than the C--

When Mousethief talks about sharps and flats in relation to modes, technically, he makes a mistake, because the modal scale had no sharps and flats--also, the piano has always been a tempered instrument, at first it used "mean temperament", so you could play the same scales on both C and D, though mean temperament started going out of tune after about three flats--

Technically speaking, it was never possible to play actual modes on the piano, because the modal system used scale pitches that were not on a piano, and the major/minor scales(and a tuning system that allowed them) had replaced modes in classical music by that time anyway--

I hate the discussions about modes and tempering, because most of the questions that come up have answers that require a lot better understanding of the technicalities of music than most people (even classical trained musicians) have, and, even more important, it is not very useful for most people (including musicians) to understand those answers anyway--

If the truth were told, I believe that PeterT's admirable effort still doesn't address the basic issue that he was trying to deal with, which had to do with trying to figure out what certain guitar books meant when they talked about modes--

I think a lot of confusion could be eliminated if modern guitar and jazz teachers(and the authors of instruction books) didn't use the term "mode"which is technically inaccurate) and instead said "Dorian Scale"(etc) which accurately describes both the scale and fingering positions that their students can use to improvise over dominant chord progressions--

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 12:13 PM

Jeri, I tried looking at it in Cakewalk and slowing it down...I really thought you had added notes though. I'll try changing the rhythm. I know you're a tune person so I should look more at the succssive note intervals instead of hearing chord progressions. hmmmmm...does this relate to modes?

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 11:00 AM

Mary, what you have to do is figure out what I did to it. I added no notes. If you have a bit of hacking ability, and can figure out what I did to it, you can figure out how to hear the tune as written. Peter, and other serious modalists, sorry to harp on about this in your thread. It is a bit pertinent.

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 10:53 AM

First off, bravo PeterT! A wonderfully easy-to-follow introduction to modes.

Second, a question: how does this apply to the question of well-tempering? Before pianos were well-tempered, I assume starting on D and ending on D would NOT end up with a Doric scale, am I right?

Third, a mnemonic device:

Take PeterT's wonderful chart:

Ionian goes: W-W-H-W-W-W-H (all natural)
Dorian goes: W-H-W-W-W-H-W (b3, b7)
Phrygian goes: H-W-W-W-H-W-W (b2, b3, b6, b7)
Lydian goes: W-W-W-H-W-W-H (#4)
Mixolydian goes: W-W-H-W-W-H-W (b7)
Aeolian goes: W-H-W-W-H-W-W (b3, b6, b7)
Locrian goes: H-W-W-H-W-W-W (b2, b3, b5, b6, b7)

But order it in the order of added sharps or flats (using Ionian as a baseline):

Lydian (#4)
Ionian (all natural)
Mixolydian (b7)
Dorian (b3, b7)
Aeolian (b3, b6, b7)
Phrygian (b2, b3, b6, b7)
Locrian (b2, b3, b5, b6, b7)

Then add back in the letter each scale starts with when playing on the white keys:

F Lydian (#4)
C Ionian (all natural)
G Mixolydian (b7)
D Dorian (b3, b7)
A Aeolian (b3, b6, b7)
E Phrygian (b2, b3, b6, b7)
B Locrian (b2, b3, b5, b6, b7)

Well looky there! It's our old friend the circle of fifths! "Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle"

Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this is cool. But I think this is cool!

Tomorrow, I will show why this predicts UFO sightings in 1953 and Jesus Christ returning in late 2004. ;-)

Alex

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 10:51 AM

John- Intervals are easy to deal with on a guitar, where 1 fret=1 semitone or half step.

I have no problems with modes, except that they seem (to me) to be based on an even-tempered scale (at least in all the explanations I've encountered). The fiddlers, singers and players of fretless banjos I've encountered in the field didn't pay much attention to even-tempered scales, but seemed to prefer natural scales. In these, the interval between, say, a D and an E depends upon what key you're playing in. I knew an old Kentucky banjo picker (Rufus Crisp) who filed off the frets on his banjo "so he could pick the right notes".

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 10:24 AM

Jeri, I hope you're happy *BG* because this song is driving me crazy. I keep hearing traditional songs like Aileen Aroon and Amazing Grace instead of an 18th century composer. I simply can't hear a I,IV,V7 chord progression, even with all the decoration taken out. The only thing that hits me is the interval in the 9th measure, but that could be a red herring. Any hints?

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 10:00 AM

http://www.crosssound.com/CS00/CS00Instruments/CSTHEKOTO/Koto.html has information on traditional Japanese scales.

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 09:32 AM

As and excercise in weirdness, listen to this midi. The tune is normally attributed to a well known 18th century western composer, but I've done something bizarre to it.
(Feel free to guess who got credit for writing it and what I did to it, or not)

This site has some good information on modes.

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: toadfrog
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 05:00 PM

Interesting. Looking for stuff on the Web under "pentatonic" Or even "Kumoi" turns up more stuff (mostly guitar instructions) than the shortness of life permits me to examine. This site does identify a "Chinese" or "Mongolian" mode also identified as a "country-western" mode. Decidedly odd. It may also, as Peter suggests, be decidedly simple-minded.

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Peter T.
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 11:44 AM

There are various attempts to match Asian scales to Western (we had an Indian folk song thread that dabbled in this), pivoting around pentatonic scales (we are not talking exact equivalents here). There is something called the Veryan Weston system which goes as follows:

start on D with a pentatonic scale (let's call it D minor for convenience sake): D-F-G-A-C-D. If you sharpen the F and C, you have something like the SouthEast Asian Pelog scale; if you then additionally sharpen the G, you approach the Japanese Hirajoshi scale. If you then also sharpen the D, you have something like the Japanese Kumoi scale.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: toadfrog
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 02:39 AM

I like this thread, and will use it for reference. But I believe there are also five-tone modes, which are interesting. I lived in Japan when I was a kid, and find that a number of old Southern Apalachian songs sound Japanese, because they appear to use the same notes. I am not trained in musical theory, but I believe Little Carpenter is in a mode like the more accessible and familiar Japanese songs like the Coal Miner's Dance (Tanko Bushi) or China Night. If I wanted to play these on a guitar, I would use one chord and when it seemed right to change chords, add a second to the chord instead. Most Chinese songs have a simliar sound, so I would guess the mode is the same.

More typical Japanese songs have a wilder sound and are less accessible to Western ears. These appear to be in the same mode as Shady Grove, and possibly Oh Death (as Dock Boggs sings it) although I haven't looked at that one so closely. And in the improbable event anyone wanted to play these on a guitar, it would go with D (Tonic) and C [Leading ???] chords. Or some folks might play D and A minor. A long time ago, I believed I had the scales worked out, but forgot how they went.

Does anyone either (a) know the theory for Asian music or (b) think this is worth pursuing.

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 03:21 PM

Gotcha. Thanks bes/bud.

~S~

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 03:18 PM

Peter T.-- I am in awe. What a truly fine piece of work!!!!!!!!

CC

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 11:52 AM

Thanks for refreshing! You can lead a banjo player to water but can you make him drink!

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 11:26 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Burke
Date: 01 Dec 00 - 10:00 AM

No, Mr. Postman, 1795-1879, was 50 years younger than the preacher.

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Dec 00 - 09:04 AM

You mean, Sir Rowland, the modern Mr. Postman himself?
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Burke
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 07:12 PM

If Booth said it he was quoting someone else. I've seen it attributed to Booth, Martin Luther, & one of the Wesley's. Bartlett's quotations has only been able to trace it to the biography of an English preacher named Rowland Hill 1744-1833.

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Marion
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 08:22 PM

I've heard that Booth, the founder of the Salvation Army, said "Why should the devil have all the good music?" to justify the technique of putting hymn lyrics onto drinking songs. Maybe this is the quote you mean.

Marion

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 01:05 AM

Where did Plato say that? It's also been said (I forget who, but it was't Plato) that the devil has all the best tunes.

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: nutty
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 06:00 PM

I always found it interesting that Plato descibed our major key C - C as the lavascious mode........ not suitable for serious music and liable to lead astray all those who used it
Now I know why music is fun

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 11:31 PM

I've upgraded the stressed note-key-mode software on my website to support semitone sequences. Instead of the W and H that Peter T. used in the first note above I use 2 and 1. So W (whole step) is 2 semitones and H (half step) is one semitone. I can then use 3 and higher numbers that are needed for other modes. The numbers, rather than letters, for semitone sequences lets you do any mode, and you can check it, because the sum of the all the digits of a semitone sequence must equal 12. Lydian is then 2221221 and Ionian is then 2212221, etc. (Cyclic permutation of 2212221 gives semitone sequences of the 7 'greek' modes)

About a year ago some said in this forum that there were 180 modes in Turkish music and they all had names. I've now got that many modes among the 6504 British Isles tunes coded on my website. They don't all have names, but they don't need them, because my mode# identifies them uniquely (and you can get the actual scale relative to the keynote from it by simple math- no tables needed).

The (numerical) semitone sequence is also a unique mode identifier, but over 95% of the digits are 1's or 2's and in a long list of semitone sequences the numbers all start looking about the same (almost as bad as reading long binary numbers). The tunes in my COMBCOD2.TXT file vary from a 3 note scale- Mode# 10, semitone sequence 228, to an 11 note scale- Mode# 2046, semitone sequence 21111111111. That last one demonstrates the difficulty in using semitone sequences for mode identifiers. How long does it take you just to count up the number of 1's in it? 2046 is a lot easier to deal with (and 2047 is the maximum possible, a 12 note scale)

See the tune code files and program at: www.erols.com/olsonw

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Hedy West (current membership)
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 09:02 PM

Marion,

You sound meticulous. That can be useful, if you don't let it block you. I consider "rules" building materials, and not "no-no's". Some rules can seem to contradict other rules, and it's up to you and your ear to sort out what you want to use. You gotta be the final judge, rather than depend on a teacher or another creature to select what ingredients you want to use to construct your music. Sure, it sounds amorphous, but how very nice to have a selection!

If you want to know my opinion (and you may not want my opinion), it is: Listen much and carefully. Take sharp notice of the sounds that thrill you, and figure out how they're made, then practice them. When you have them under control, experiment with them, and take careful notice of whatever creeps into your own playing that you like, either by design or by accident. It's up to you to develop an esthetic. My dearest core-rule for myself is: avoid the gatekeepers at ALL COST. They'll spoil all your joy and turn you to dust. And that's NOT what music is about!

You have to be the somebody who confirms or denies your thesis. And, since you say, "...it is what my ear seems to be telling me..." follow your ear. It's the only one you have. Do it; you'll reassess it unavoidably.

Adios,

Hedy West

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: GUEST,John Bauman
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 10:26 PM

Jeeeeez I wish I culd get my mind around this. My particular learning disability seems to be that I can't grasp a theory concept very well until I can also hear it illustrated. Did anyone get one of those mode slide rules that guest Bruce was offering back in march? Know how to get one? I spent the better part of the day a month ago creating a colour chart of the intervals so I could teach myself the modes but intervals don't translate easily to the guitar and it is a painfully long process to get up to speed in any mode so as to catch the "sound" of the mode--and dammit, no Julie Andrews singing do, 1/2re, mi, fa, etc in my mind. Howdidja learn the sound?

John

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Marion
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 06:26 PM

Turtle, next time you're looking for this thread, you can go to "Links" (not "Quick Links") and look in the music theory category. So what are these two long threads whereof you speak?

Thanks for the clarification Hedy. But I'm not sure about your statement that I can do what I discover I can do, at least at this stage in my learning. My intuition is that it's important to know what the rules are and how to use them (or call them "conventions" or "accumulated wisdom of our craft" if you don't like the sound of "rules") before starting to deviate from them. This is a bone I have to pick with my fiddle teacher - whenever I ask a question like "when should I use unisons?" he always answers "whenever you want to - whatever sounds right to you." While I'm sure that he's right in that it's ultimately the musician's decision how to play something, as a beginner this isn't useful advice, because I don't know when I want to play unisons (or strictly speaking I never want to play unisons because they're more difficult than single notes), and I'm not educated enough to tell when they fit.

But maybe you didn't mean "do whatever you want" and just wanted to say "trust your ear to tell you what fits". There's truth to that, I'm slowly discovering. I am still hoping that somebody will confirm or deny my thesis that:

"So does that mean if you start with a G major tune you can switch casually to an E minor tune, and make a leap to some other major key and have it not sound too disjointed... whereas if you start with a tune in E Dorian it should only be followed by other tunes in E Dorian?"

But whether or not I find out if this is a standard rule, it is definitely what my ear seems to be telling me, so it's the rule I'm going with for now.

Thanks, Marion

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Peter T.
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 03:46 PM

Lots of people helped relieve my excruciating stupidity -- and the new additions are interesting too.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Turtle
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 12:21 PM

Wow, Peter, this is amazing. I remember the two long threads, but I never saw this compendium back in March. And then just this week I was talking about modes with a friend of mine who plays accordion, and I told her I'd seen something on the Mudcat and I'd try to excerpt the useful bits for her, and voila! here it is all neat and tidily summed up for us, and conveniently refreshed by Marion (thanks Marion!).

Thank you, thank you.

Turtle

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Hedy West (current membership)
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 01:57 AM

Merion,

The "current membership" is a device to differentiate between me-real & me-faux: I was "honored" by an impersonater on this website starting I think in January. "Current..." is the real-version; I've just been talking strolls here a couple of weeks. Thanks for the welcome.

I wrote that bit above in answer to your, "So if you have a song where you play G chord on the first two bars, then C on the next two bars, then D on the next two bars... does that mean that in bars 3 and 4 the tone centre is C, and in bars 5 and 6 the tone centre is D, and the underlying tonality is G? Is that what you mean by changing the tone centre? Or can you say that bars 3 and 4 are actually in the key of C major and that there has been a short-lived modulation?"

"Tonal centre" is synonymous with "tonic". You seemed to have been asking whether one is changing the tonic/tonal center each two measures in a standard I IV V I progression.

Your, " Doesit also apply to the sequence of tunes within a medley? I mean, would you play a G major reel on the fiddle (with your guitarist playing G, C, D, Em) then go straight into a C major reel (with the guitarist playing C, F, G, Am) then a D major reel then another G major reel?"

In standard traditional playing, I do not think that formula was followed; BUT, that ought to be a most satisfactory sounding formula. Folk forms are shorter, and didn't generally get carried away to larger applications of harmonic movements - that was what happened in Western classical music, and to what marvellous places it DID get carried! Viz., in Brahms, there's glorious "carrying"!

It's MY opinion that you CAN do what you discover you CAN do.

The one-step-up tonal movement is a sort of one-time-thing, a bit of a static terracing that doesn't move you along with the dynamic of creating a demand for the return of the tonic, like the I IV V I sequence. (Or some more elaborate variations of the same). BUT, it's fun.

So, have it!

Hedy

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Marion
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 11:12 PM

Hi Hedy, and thanks for answering. Does your use of the phrase "current membership" mean that you're new to Mudcat? If so, welcome, and I like your writing style.

I'm familiar with the I IV V progression of short-lived chords within a song or tune. Does it also apply to the sequence of tunes within a medley? I mean, would you play a G major reel on the fiddle (with your guitarist playing G, C, D, Em) then go straight into a C major reel (with the guitarist playing C, F, G, Am) then a D major reel then another G major reel?

I remember from another thread someone said it was cool to shift from some G tunes into A tunes. This I to II sequence isn't something you see often in guitar chords for individual songs.

I wonder if there's any connection between how the chords of bars within a tune go together and how the keys of tunes within a medley go together.

thanks, Marion

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Hedy West (current membership)
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 10:46 PM

Marion,

If you've chosen G triad (chord) as your home base, you've chosen G as your tonic. It would be a real drag to hang around there forever. (Who'd want to keep listening?) So, the most common strayings off are

1st, to the C triad, undermining (but not destroying) the tonic weight of G by using it as the 5th of of its subdominant (i.e., the pitch that lies a 5th under it, therefore "sub" dominant)

2nd, to the D triad, G's dominant (which by repeating G's 2nd overtone, seems simply to echo the G triad and give more weight to it. Because the D triad also contains the pitch F#, it's a cinch to create a demand to return to tonic G. F# is G's "leading tone" - it leads to G - & voila, there you are back home feeling very satisfied after a little trip.

And all the time you stayed in G tonic.

First vacation finished. You can study where you want to stray next time.

Hedy

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Marion
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 10:16 PM

I'm refreshing this in the hopes that someone will take an interest in my question.

In the meantime I've learned that Wind That Shakes the Barley and Mairi's Wedding are in major keys, not Mixolydian. Wind That Shakes the Barley has two sharps in its signature but seems to centre around the note A, so I thought it was A Mixolydian, but I guess maybe it's just one of the "circular" tunes that have been mentioned.

And in the hopes of luring M.Ted back into the water... I wonder if you've already answered my question with:

"Other things that major/minor scales do that modes don't, is allow for the possibility of key changes, and allow the melody to be changed from major to minor..." (M.Ted, above).

So does that mean if you start with a G major tune you can switch casually to an E minor tune, and make a leap to some other major key and have it not sound too disjointed... whereas if you start with a tune in E Dorian it should only be followed by other tunes in E Dorian?

I'm also trying to understand this statement:

"Through the use of changing harmonies, they make it possible to change the tone center of the melody to any of the other scale notes, without changing the underlying tonality of the melody--" (M.Ted again).

So if you have a song where you play G chord on the first two bars, then C on the next two bars, then D on the next two bars... does that mean that in bars 3 and 4 the tone centre is C, and in bars 5 and 6 the tone centre is D, and the underlying tonality is G? Is that what you mean by changing the tone centre? Or can you say that bars 3 and 4 are actually in the key of C major and that there has been a short-lived modulation?

Thanks, Marion

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Marion
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 10:55 PM

In Peter's article and the "Modal Harmony" article I gave a link to, the "practical side" of modes is all about the kinds of chords need to harmonize modal tunes.

But what I want to know, as a fiddler, is how to use modal tunes in medleys.

I know that every major key has a relative minor key; is it also useful to say that the Ionian mode of a given note has a relative Dorian and relative Mixolydian?

It's my observation that going from a major key tune into another tune in the relative minor works great (i.e. G major tune followed by E minor tune), but that going from a major tune into what would be its relative Dorian (i.e. D major in E Dorian) doesn't work at all.

A lot of the tunes in my scrapbook I can identify as Dorian, but I'm less sure about Mixolydian - are "Wind That Shakes the Barley" and "Mairi's Wedding" Mixolydian? If they are, then I've tried going from a major into the relative Mixolydian and found that it's workable but not as seamlessly as into the relative minor.

I wonder if E minor and E Dorian tunes would flow well together, or A major with A Mixolydian tunes, since they share the same starting guitar chord...

These are my observations, but they're based on a very small sample and some doubts as to whether I've identified the modes correctly.

I'd like to know if there is some systematic way of laying out what tunes can go with what.

Thanks, Marion

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: death by whisky
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 08:05 AM

....and what about the Diddleian mode for all those Irish tunes!!!!

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Barbara
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 01:09 AM

And I think the Beatles song Within You, Without You is in locrian. Check it out.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Marion
Date: 10 Sep 00 - 11:01 PM

Errata:

The second link should be:

Modes and Scales in Traditional Scottish Music

Marion

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Marion
Date: 10 Sep 00 - 10:55 PM

Here are two more documents I have found that may be useful:

Click here then click on Modal Harmony

This article deals with what chords should be used to accompany tunes in Ionian, Dorian, Mixolydian, and Aeolian modes.

Modes and Scales in Traditional Scottish Music

The introduction to this one is tantalizing, but it looks terribly long and complete - and its millions of examples are given in abc - so I haven't worked up the courage to study it yet. But take a look if you're studying about modes.

Marion

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 09:26 PM

Just when I thought it was safe to go back in the water again!!!

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 07:10 PM

As an "Uncontrite Modal Folker"...(have a tee-shirt that says so)...I appreciate that summary!

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Marion
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 12:03 PM

I am refreshing this, as I just got around to reading my hard copy of it and was very impressed. Thanks, Peter.

Marion

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Peter T.
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 06:44 PM

Neat. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 06:09 PM

I've made up a mode slide rule as a GIF and put it on my website, so you can print it out from your web browser. (Click on MODERULE.GIF). Cut the scale off the top so you can slide it along to give the keynote you want at the start of the mode, and slide it down to the mode you want. Notes tell how to get the normal 6 and 5 modes from these. I didn't put on the non-normal harmonic minor, but it's just aeolian with the 7th not flatted. www.erols.com/olsonw

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: rainbow
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 10:30 AM

wow! thanks for this... also there are usually interesting comments on modes in dulcimer threads due to the nature of the instrument...

... lorraine

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Peter T.
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 09:39 AM

Mary of Kentucky's eagle eye (from an e-mail):
there is a typo in roughly the 15th paragraph, where I say that "if you know some music theory, you will know that a key in Major mode that has two flats is B."

Should of course be Bb (Major). Thanks, Mary.

Glad this is seen as helpful. I would like to read even short primers on (1) playing the blues (pentatonics and all that); (2) on sounds and scales in non-Western folk music; (3) some more on learning to play different instruments; and a synthesis of some of the other really informative long threads here. I know there are books available on these, but I found the personal versions and tips of Mudcatters more helpful (and more fun). Thanks to Mary again for more song additions. Any others?

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Escamillo
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 01:02 AM

Thanks a lot and congratulations, El Pedro. It happens more and more that an article posted by a Mudcatter becomes part of our library. And this is GREAT.
Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Caitrin
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 09:54 PM

Peter...wow! As person who's never had a music theory class, this has been very helpful. I had heard of modes before, but I wasn't really sure how they functioned. This was both educational and interesting...many thanks!

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 09:41 PM

Thank you Peter.

Rick

Subject: RE: MODES FOR MUDCATTERS: A SYNTHESIS PRIMER
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 09:13 PM

Nice work, Peter--it seems to be pretty accurate--of course every point raises another question, which would turn it into a book--though that may be inevitable!!!!

I have a couple clarifications though-- your tend to classify the major and minor scales as modes, and I think you have to explain the difference between diatonic scales and modes--

The major and minor scales may have the same notes in them as modes, but modes are a precursor to the diatonic scales--they M/m scales can be used in ways that the modes cannot be used--

Through the use of changing harmonies, they make it possible to change the tone center of the melody to any of the other scale notes, without changing the underlying tonality of the melody--

Another way of saying this is that in the key of C major, you can change the tone center of the melody to B and you ear still "hears" it resolving back to C--

The G7 scale is called a Dominant Scale, not a Mixolydian scale--because it has this special relationship to the C scale--

Other things that major/minor scales do that modes don't, is allow for the possibility of key changes, and allow the melody to be change from major to minor, or for a melody phrase to repeat with one of the intervals raised or lowered--

Also, it would be good if you make some attempt to explain what the nature of those 160 scales that Bruce O keeps mentioning---

Anyway, well begun (Big Grin)