Origins: Lizzy Lindsay (Child 226)

Subject: RE: Origins: Lizzy Lindsay (Child 226)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 09:05 PM

Q, you can't copyright a name but you can sometimes trademark it. I believe that Croc and his legal enforcers tried to shut down any restaurant carrying the name. It seems that there was a court case involving a real MacDonald that was thrown out putting an end to any ownership claim on the name.
Something like this:
    Judge to defendant: "What is your name?"
             defendant: "Joseph MacDonald."
    Judge to complainant:" What is your name?"
             complainant: "Ray Croc."
    Judge: "Claim denied and case dismissed!"
Simplified of course but the gist of the case in a nutshell. Croc did however successfully trademark the Golden Arches symbol.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lizzy Lindsay (Child 226)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 09:32 PM

Right, trademark; my error.

Results of suits over 'Mc' something-or-other have been mixed. Win a few, lose a few.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lizzy Lindsay (Child 226)
From: GUEST,Dave Rado
Date: 25 Jan 12 - 01:58 AM

The DT lyrics are unlike anything I've ever seen anywhere else - it's really weird that DT should have used those ones. And given their stated source doesn't seem to use those lyrics either, it's even stranger.

I'm very curious about the origin of the song. Did Burns really write what is now the chorus and nothing more? One of the posts in the thread implies that's the case, and also, I note that only the chorus appears on any Burns website. But if Burns put the words to the "old highland melody" then that seems very odd - how could he have done so without writing at least one verse? Or did Burns write a one verse poem that was later converted into the chorus of a song by Robert Allan, who also wrote the rest of the song and added the music to it, all after Burns died?

These days there seem to be basically two versions sung: the version attributed to Robert Allan in a post above, with its references to MacDonald, but no mention of deer, and no mention of feasting and joy (which is basically the version Gaberlunzie, among many others, sing); and the version posted by Kendall above, which is the version The Corries sing (although Ronnie Browne sometimes sings the other version.) The Corries'/Kendall version with its mention of Argyll is clearly a Campbell song, while the other version is clearly a MacDonald song (reflecting the feud between those clans).

But then Teribus posted a version that basically contains all of the verses used in both of the other two versions, including the references to red deer and feasting (but not the DT outlier verses which seems to be a very strange anomaly); but the version Teribus posted is clearly still a MacDonald version rather than a Campbell one.

So I'm wondering what order these versions evolved in? For instance was this it:

1) Burns writes a one-verse poem.

2) After Burns dies, Robert Allan turns the poem into the chorus for a song, adds four verses and attaches a traditional melody. (As in this post).

3) Four more verses get added, making 8 verses in all (as in this post).;

4) Members of the MacDonald clan mostly don't sing the four new verses, even though they're poetically-speaking the four nicest verses in the song (which seems strange, but I can't think of a better theory) - but instead stick to the original Robert Allan verses.

5) On the other hand, members of the Campbell clan love the tune, but hate the Allan verses with their references to MacDonald, so pinch the chorus, the tune, and the four verses that had been added after Allan wrote it, dropping the four verses that Allan wrote. Thus through a quirk of fate, the Campbells end up singing the poetically more beautiful verses, although they were probably written by an anonymous MacDonald; and most MacDonalds end up singing the less poetic verses.

6) A small minority of MacDonalds continue to sing all 8 verses (hence that's the version Teribus was taught).

7) 20th century folk singers almost all sing one of the two 4-verse versions (the Campbell or MacDonald versions), not based on clan loyalty any more, but just based on which version they happened to hear, or if they've heard both, on which they preferred.


Does that seem like an accurate summary? Or can anyone suggest a more likely sequence of events?

Subject: RE: Origins: Lizzy Lindsay (Child 226)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 25 Jan 12 - 02:53 AM

To add to the confusion:
Argyle is a county in the Highlands but it is also the old clan title for the chief of the Campbell clan. The chief carried the title "Duke of Argyle." He would hace been a "chief" , not a "chieftain."
The chief of the clan Donald (MacDonald)carried the title "Lord of The Isles" and he would also be a chief.
There is a difference between "chief" and "chieftain" that perhaps should be defined:
A chief is the overall leader of the clan while a chieftain is the leader of a subordinate group. A subordinate faction of Clan Donald was Clanranald (Ranald's family), and it was probably its most powerful cadet. The Gaelic pronounciation for Ranald sounds like Ronald to an English ear. Therefore he would have been a "chieftain" of highest degree. All of that being said I don't know who Lizzy was!

Subject: RE: Origins: Lizzy Lindsay (Child 226)
From: GUEST,Dave Rado
Date: 25 Jan 12 - 09:03 AM

Hi Sandy - you're not adding to the confusion, you're just adding detail that I should really have included at least some of in my post - thanks.

In point 5) of my sequence above I should also have said that when the Campbells nicked the four verses and chorus that they liked from the 8-verse version, and made it into their own song, they must at that point have added the references to Argyll, who, as you say, was the head of their clan, and their equivalent in status to Lord Ranald McDonald.

One thing that does add confusion is that it strikes me as unlikely, now I think about it, that the one-verse poem attributed to Burns, which now forms the chorus of the song, could really have been written by him - it's not up to his usual standards, especially as a complete poem. But he was a collector as well as a writer of folk songs, so maybe he just collected what was then a one-verse ditty, published it, it got wrongly attributed to him, with the remainder of the sequence of events still being as I postulated above?

Do you agree that the sequence of events I described seems likely?

Subject: RE: Origins: Lizzy Lindsay (Child 226)
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 25 Jan 12 - 11:49 AM

Thia is a version I have in a Scottish ballad collection. It's Childe 226C and called "Donald of the Isles" Childe collected various versions. In this one Lizie goes with Donald without knowing he's a clan leader. In fact he tells her he is very poor.

226C.1         WHAT wad ye gie to me, mither,
         What wad ye gie to me,
         If I wad go to Edinbruch city
         And bring hame Lizie Lindsey to thee?'
226C.2         'Meikle wad I gie to thee, Donald,
         Meikle wad I gie to thee,
         If ye wad gang to Edinbruch city
         And court her as in povertie.'
226C.3         Whan he cam to Edinbruch city,
         And there a while to resort,
         He called on fair Lizie Lindsey,
         Wha lived at the Canongate-Port.
226C.4         'Will ye gang to the Hielands, Lizie Lindsey?
         Will ye gae to the Hielands wi me?
         And I will gie ye a cup o the curds,
         Likewise a cup of green whey.
226C.5         'And I will gie ye a bed o green threshes,
         Likewise a happing o grey,
         If ye will gae to the Hielands, Lizie Lindsey,
         If ye'll gae to the Hielands wi me.'
226C.6         'How can I gang?' says Lizie Lindsey,
         'How can I gang wi thee?
         I dinna ken whare I am gaing,
         Nor wha I am gaing wi.'
226C.7         'My father is a cowper o cattle,
         My mither is an auld dey;
         My name is Donald Macdonald,
         My name I'll never deny.'
226C.8         Doun cam Lizie Lindsey's father,
         A revrend auld gentleman was he:
         'If ye steal awa my dochter,
         Hie hanged ye sall be.'
226C.9         He turned him round on his heel
         And [a] licht lauch gied he;
         'There is na law in a' Edinbruch city
         This day that can hang me.'
226C.10         It's doun cam Lizie's hand-maid,
         A bonnie young lass was she:
         'If I had ae crown in a' the warld,
         Awa wi that fellow I'd gae.'
226C.11         'Do ye say sae to me, Nelly?
         Do ye say sae to me?
         Wad ye leave your father and mither,
         And awa wi that fellow wad gae?'
226C.12         She has kilted her coats o green silk
         A little below her knee,
         And she's awa to the Hielands wi Donald,
         To bear him companie.
226C.13         And whan they cam to the vallies
         The hie hills war coverd wi snow,
         Which caused monie a saut tear
         From Lizie's een to flow.
226C.14         'O, gin I war in Edinbruch city,
         And safe in my ain countrie,
         O, gin I war in Edinbruch city,
         The Hielands shoud never see me.'
226C.15         'O haud your tongue, Lizie Lindsey,
         Na mair o that let me see;
         I'll tak ye back to Edinbruch city,
         And safe to your ain countrie.'
226C.16         RR'rrThough I war in Edinbruch city,
         And safe in my ain countrie,
         Though I war in Edinbruch city,
         O wha wad care for me!'
226C.17         Whan they cam to the shiels o Kilcushneuch,
         Out there cam an auld dey:
         'Ye're welcome here, Sir Donald,
         You and your lady gay.'
226C.18         'Ca me na mair Sir Donald,
         But ca me Donald your son,
         And I'll ca ye my auld mither,
         Till the lang winter nicht is begun.'
226C.19         'A' this was spoken in Erse,
         That Lizie micht na ken;
         A' this was spoken in Erse,
         And syne the broad English began.
226C.20         'Ye'll gae and mak to our supper
         A cup o the curds and whey,
         And ye'll mak a bed o green threshes,
         Likewise a happing o grey.'
         * * * * *
226C.21         'Won up, won up, Lizie Lindsey,
         Ye've lain oure lang in the day;
         Ye micht hae been helping my mither
         To milk the ewes and the kye.'
226C.22         Then up got Lizie Lindsey,
         And the tear blindit her ee:
         'O, gin I war in Edinbruch city,
         The Hielands shoud never see me!'
226C.23         'Won up, won up, Lizie Lindsey,
         A fairer sicht ye hae to see;
         Do ye see yon bonnie braw castle?
         Lady o it ye will be.'

Subject: ADD Version: Lizzy Lindsay (Child 226)
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 05:00 PM

The version of lizzy lindsay I sing is a composite of child versions

LEEZIE LINDSAY

Will ye gang to the highlands Leezie Lindsay,Will ye gang to the Highlands wi' me
Will Ye gang to the Highlands Leezie Lindsay my bride and my darlin' tae be.

Then he spoke tae Lizzie's old mother, And a cantie old body was she,
"Mon, if I was as young as my daughter,I wad gang tae the hielands wi' thee."

"But to gang to the Hielands wi' you, sir,I dinna ken how that may be,
For I ken no' the land that you live in,Nor I ken no' the lad I'm goin' wi'."

My name is young Donald McDonnal my name I'll never deny
My father is an auld shepherd, my mither she milks the kye

So she kilted her coats of green satin , and she kilted them up to her knee,
And she's of wi' young donald McDonald his bride and his darling tae be.

When they came near the end o' their journey to the hoose o' his father's milk dey
He said stay there a while Lizzie Lindsay till I tell my mither o' thee.
No mak, us a supper dear mither the best o' your curds and cream whey,
An mak us a bed o' green rushes, a pillow and coverin' o' grey.

Rise up , rise up Lizzie Lindsay, ye hae lain ower lang in the day.
You should have been helpin my mither tae milk her ewes and kye.

Then up spak the bonny young lady, as the saut tearsthey drapt frae her eye.
I wish I had bided at hame I can neither milk ewes nor kye.

I wish I had bided at hame, the Highlands I never had seen.
though I love young Donald Mc Donald the laddie wi' the bonnie blue een.
"Oh, Lizzie, you must hae kennet little, when you dinna ken me,
My name is Lord Ranald McDonald, I'm a chieften o' high degree."

Win up, win up lizzie Lindsay , fora fairer sicht we hae tae see
I'll show you Kingcaussie Castle an' Lady o' it ye will be.

I use the usual "singing together tune" for Lord Ranald verses and the one in "kist of riches" sung by Belle Stewart for Leezie' verses as it is too long in one tune. The story makes more sense in the longer versions and I wonder when it was shortened .Only ballad bores like me seem to sing the long song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lizzy Lindsay (Child 226)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 11:41 PM

Dave, I first learned this song from John Allan Cameron. I really don't know much about it's history. John Allan's Cape Breton home was in Glencoe, a place where MacDonalds and Campbells lived in harmony side by side on this side of the pond, despite the events of their forebearers in Scotland. He sang the MacDonald version. I do believe that Burn's mother was a Campbell.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lizzy Lindsay (Child 226)
From: Jim McLean
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 04:22 AM

Burns's mother was Agnes Brown from Ayrshire.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lizzy Lindsay (Child 226)
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 11:22 AM

Yes Jim the four surnames for the respective grand-parents of Burns were Burness, Keith, Brown and Rainie.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lizzy Lindsay (Child 226)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 03:37 AM

I'm 24 and grew up listening to my great uncle singing me this song.... My name is lyndsey Elizabeth .... And have always understood that leezy was a pet name for Elizabeth .... When I get married I hope he will be around to sing it at my wedding! =D

Subject: RE: Origins: Lizzy Lindsay (Child 226)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 11:56 PM

That's a lovely memory. I hope he lives that long, too.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lizzy Lindsay (Child 226)
From: GUEST,julia L
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 11:39 PM

We do a version brought to Maine from Galloway where Lizzie refuses to go with Mac Donald "for the road it is lang and the nicht it is murk".
Very practical lassie, oor Lizzie.

Julia

Subject: RE: Origins: Lizzy Lindsay (Child 226)
From: sciencegeek
Date: 19 Feb 12 - 03:53 AM

Alex Campbell did this on his 1963 album, The Best Loved Songs of Bonnie Scotland, which I nearly wore out from constant playing.. lol.

His version only had the 3 verses & chorus. Gads! I just realized that I've been sing that song for close to 50 years....

Subject: RE: Origins: Lizzy Lindsay (Child 226)
From: GUEST,jacklfan
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 04:57 AM

I was looking for the words as sung by Eddi Reader. Why are they so different to what I see here? Please enlighten an ignorant Irish lass.
:-)

Subject: RE: Origins: Lizzy Lindsay (Child 226)
From: GUEST,Wee Jock
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 05:57 AM

Eddi Reader's version is a rewrite by herself and others thus making the song of today. Border Crossing folk duo which i am a member do this version, but also include two of traditional verses which combines with Eddi's rewrite thus making it a great song to sing.

Subject: Lyr Add: LIZIE LINDSAY (from Jamieson, 1806)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 07:56 AM

From Popular Ballads and Songs, Volume 2 by Robert Jamieson (Edinburgh: Archibald Constable and Co., 1806), page 149:

LIZIE LINDSAY.

Transmitted to the Editor by Professor Scott of Aberdeen, as it was taken down from the recitation of an Old Woman. It is very popular in the north east of Scotland, and was familiar to the editor in his early youth; and from the imperfect recollection which he still retains of it, he has corrected the text in two or three unimportant passages.

"Will ye go to the Highlands, Lizie Lindsay,
Will ye go to the Highlands wi' me
Will ye go to the Highlands, Lizie Lindsay,
And dine on fresh cruds and green whey?"

Then out spak Lizie's mother,
A good old lady was she,
"Gin ye say sic a word to my daughter,
I'll gar ye be hanged high."

"Keep weel your daughter frae me, madam;
Keep weel your daughter frae me;
I care as little for your daughter,
As ye can care for me."

Then out spak Lizie's ain maiden,
A bonny young lassie was she;
Says,--"were I the heir to a kingdom,
Awa' wi' young Donald I'd be."

"O say you sae to me, Nelly?
And does my Nelly say sae?
Maun I leave my father and mother,
Awa' wi' young Donald to gae?"

And Lizie's ta'en till her her stockings,
And Lizie's ta'en till her her shoen;
And kilted up her green claithing,
And awa' wi' young Donald she's gane.

The road it was lang and weary;
The braes they were ill to climb;
Bonny Lizie was weary wi' travelling,
And a fit furder coudna win.

And sair, O sair did she sigh,
And the saut tear blin'd her e'e;
"Gin this be the pleasures o' looing,
They never will do wi' me!"

"Now, haud your tongue, bonny Lizie;
Ye never shall rue for me;
Gi'e me but your love for my love,
It is a that your tocher will be.

"And haud your tongue, bonny Lizie;
Altho' that the gait seem lang,
And you's ha'e the wale o' good living
Whan to Kincawsen we gang.

"There my father he is an auld cobler,
My mother she is an auld dey;
And we'll sleep on a bed o' green rashes,
And dine on fresh cruds and green whey."

* * * * *
* * * * *
"You're welcome hame, Sir Donald,
You're welcome hame to me."

"O ca' me nae mair sir Donald;
There's a bonny young lady to come;
Sae ca' me nae mair Sir Donald,
But ae spring Donald your son."

"Ye're welcome hame, young Donald;
Ye're welcome hame to me;
Ye're welcome hame, young Donald,
And your bonny young lady wi' ye."

She's made them a bed of green rashes,
Weel cover'd wi' hooding o' grey;
Bonny Lizie was weary wi' travelling,
And lay till 'twas lang o' the day.

"The sun looks in o'er the hill-head,
And the laverock is liltin' gay;
Get up, get up, bonny Lizie,
You've lain till its lang o' the day.

"You might ha'e been out at the shealin,
Instead o' sae lang to lye,
And up and helping my mother
To milk baith her gaits and kye.

Then out spak Lizie Lindsay,
The tear blindit her eye;
"The ladies o' Edinburgh city
They neither milk gaits nor kye."

Then up spak young Sir Donald,
* * * * * *
* * * * * *
* * * * * *

"For I am the laird o' Kincawsyn,
And you are the lady free;
And * * * * *
* * * * * *

Subject: RE: Origins: Lizzy Lindsay (Child 226)
From: GUEST,julia L
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 01:50 PM

here's the Maine/ NB version which seems to be the only one where she refuses. The tune is in a bouncy 4/4 rather than the usual 3/4

LIZZIE LINDSAY from British Ballads from Maine by Phillips Barry circa 1925 collected by Fanny Eckstorm from Margaret McGill Chamcook NB Canada / born in Galloway, Scotland

Chorus
"Will ye gang tae the hielands, Lizzie Lindsay,
Will ye gang tae the hielands wi' me?
Will ye gang tae the hielands, Lizzie Lindsay,
My bride and my darling to be?"

Oh what ha’e ye got in the hielan’s?
Oh what ha’e ye got, quo’ she
Oh what ha’e ye got in the hielan’s, kind sir,
Gin I gang tae the hielan’s wi’ ye?

Chorus

Oh I ha’e got a hoose in the hielan’s
Oh I ha’e got a fine ha’
Oh I ha’e got a hoose in the hielan’s
A hoose in the hielan’s for ye

Chorus

I’ll no gang tae the hielan’s wi’ you, sir
I’ll no gang tae the hielan’s wi’ ye
For the road it is lang an’ the nicht it is mirk
I’ll no gang tae the hielan’s wi’ ye

Subject: RE: Origins: Lizzy Lindsay (Child 226)
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 12:02 PM

I have brought the lyrics a bit more up to date in 2 of the verses:

Oh, I fear you must know very little
If you know not the lad ye gae wi',
For my name is Lord Ronald McDonald,
And I own a Fast Food Company

She's kilted up her skirts of green satin,
And she's kilted them up round her knee,
And she's gone with Lord Ronald McDonald,
His new Sales Director tae be.