Origin: Wild Mountain Thyme

Subject: RE: Origin: Wild Mountain Thyme
From: Jim McLean
Date: 24 Jul 09 - 04:28 AM

Guest Iain,
If you check with the MCPS or PRS here in the UK you'll find that the McPeakes own the copyright to both words and music. The words are a variant of Tannahill's Braes o' Balquhither but the tune is original.

Subject: RE: Origin: Wild Mountain Thyme
From: GUEST,Iain
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 06:03 PM

I'm also interested in including this tune on a recording. I do prefer The Braes O' Balquhidder for its "grace and simplicity" but it cannot replace Wild Mountain Thyme in our medley. If it's true that the McPeakes' own only the copyright to the words, what title would I give this song on the CD jacket? The medley is an instrumental, so it would seem stupid to incure the wraith of the copyright gods by putting "Wild Mountain Thyme" in the name.

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: Bill D
Date: 05 May 09 - 12:46 PM

"The Braes O' Balquhidder" is a 'different' song... a bit harder to sing and not comfortable for an audience to chime in on a chorus. I can see why the McPeake's changed it, but I wish more folks were aware of the grace and simplicity of the original.

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 May 09 - 11:53 AM

Can't add to Pavane's brief comments. "The Braes O' Balquhidder" remains a better song.

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: pavane
Date: 05 May 09 - 11:33 AM

And remember that Wikipedia is not a definitive work of reference. Anyone can add to it (most pages, anyway). That is a strength but also a weakness.

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: pavane
Date: 05 May 09 - 11:30 AM

Yes, perhaps they originated that version, and the tune, but a note could perhaps be added to Wikipedia about The Braes o Balquhidder and Tannahill

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 09 - 10:34 AM

Very interesting thread. Does anyone know why Wikipedia lists the McKenna family as the authors?

"Wild Mountain Thyme, also known as Will You Go Lassie, Go, is a folk song, originally written by the McKenna family in the early part of the 20th century but was made famous in 1957 by William McPeake and his son Francis McPeake, natives of Ulster, Ireland.[1] It is often mistakenly believed to be a traditional song, but the copyright is held by E.F.D.S.S. Publications, who published it for McPeake.[2] It was first recorded by Francis McPeake in 1957, and has since been covered by numerous artists."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Mountain_Thyme

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 03:23 PM

Just for the sake of completeness, another thread links to a songbook open at The Braes o' Balquhidder and anyone doin a search for 'Braes' will get lots of hits for "Ye Banks & Braes" long before finding what they really want.

CHEERS
Nigel

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 12:13 PM

The Clancy Brothers (among whom is a Liam) sing the extra verse mentioned by oggie... maybe that's whom s/he heard

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 10:05 PM

The song "Birnie Bouzle" (2), version from 1828, is reminiscent of "Braes o' Balquhidder." Thread 52829: Gin Ye Marry Me Birnie Bouzle

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 08:02 PM

And the wild mountain thyme
O'er the moorlands is perfuming.

That is the version I have on a self-made recording of the McPeake family when they performed in Southampton in 1960's.
Colyn.

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 06:29 PM

Not in this case, Brian, it doesn't IMHO.

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 05:41 PM

I was told by a Bob Hellon (sp?) who insisted he was at university when Francis McPeake was there (in the capacity of a folk source I believe) - and he reported that there was a twinkle in the McPeake eyes when this question was asked.

It has been said that the song in a shorter form existed within the family (uhu?) but it was (in the tradition of Sabine Barring-Gould) given a more Folk Club friendly length. But how the quoter knew, I know not.

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: pavane
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 06:14 AM

It's a line from a verse that has somehow got transplanted into the chorus.

It always catches out the audience when Mrs Pavane sings the original (the one which rhymes).

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: Brían
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 11:13 PM

Sure, anyone can sing a song that rhymes. Singing one that doesn't rhyme, now that takes skill.

Brían

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 09:42 PM

Och! Be sure to interrupt them and point out their error.
(if you are bigger than they are)

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 09:20 PM

Can anyone explain why so many people sing a (popular)version that doesn't rhyme? .i.e.
Och, the summer's in it's prime,
All the flo'ers are richly bloomin'
And the wild mountain thyme
Grows around the bloomin' heather.
I have McPeake's LP from which I learned the 4th line as :
All the valley is perfumin' -
Which is more akin to the Tannahill version and does actually rhyme with the 2nd line!

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 11:30 AM

To clarify the various Messrs McPeake: there are four Francies.

(1) The one who built Belfast Town Hall early in the last century
(2) His son 'Wee Francie', father of Francie III and Kathleen
(3) Francie III who runs the pipers' school
(4) Francie IV, his son, who I think has now more or less taken over.

No 2 told me (in the early 1970s or thereabouts} that his daddy had written 'Will Ye Go Lassie Go'.

No 3 told me that while this wasn't totally true, Peter Kennedy had encouraged the family to claim copyright (jointly with him, natch).

I haven't seen the family since Francie IV was a very small child. This is just the story as it was told to me 30 odd years ago.

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: GUEST,wrinkles
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 07:33 AM

That verse oggie was definitly written by F McPeak Jr. added after the dreath of his wife back in the 70s

McPeak Sr only claimed to have written the _song_ ie: the words, not the tune. I'd the privelige of learning the tune from the McPeak Sr himself at a session in the old Sunflower Folk Club in Belfast in the early 80s.

Wrinkles

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: oggie
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 04:48 PM

Many years ago Liam (last name not remembered) who sang at Louth and Grimsby FCs added another verse as he felt the original too short.

From hazy memory it was -

If my true love is not able
I will surely find another
Who'll pull Wild Mountain Thyme
All around the purple heather.

All the best

oggie

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 01:51 PM

The link posted by Bill D (05Apr 00) contains the sheet music from "Scottish Songs," c. 1850, ed. George Farquhar Graham. The lyrics are ranscribed below. There are several 19th c. printings of the song, and more than one in the DT and other threads, but I think this one is worth posting as well.

BRAES O' BALQUHIDDER

Will ye go, lassie, go,
To the braes o' Balquhidder!
Where the blae berries grow
'Mang the bonnie bloomin' heather;
Where the deer and the rae,
Lightly bounding together,
Sport the lang summer day
'Mang the braes o' Balquhidder.

Will ye go, lassie, go
To the braes o' Balquhidder!
Where the blae berries grow
'Mang the bonnie blooming heather.

I will twine thee a bower
By the clear siller fountain,
An' I'll cover it o'er
Wi' the flowers o' the mountain;
I will range through the wilds,
An' the deep glen sae dreary,
An' return wi' their spoils
To the bower o' my deary.
Will ye go, etc.

When the rude wintry win'
Idly raves round my dwellin',
An' the roar o' the linn
On the night-breeze is swellin'--
Sae merrily we'll sing
As the storm rattles o'er us,
Till the dear shieling ring
Wi' the light liltin' chorus
Will ye go, etc.

Now the summer is in prime,
Wi' the flowers richly bloomin',
An' the wild mountain thyme
A' the moorlands perfumin',-
To our dear native scenes
Let us journey together,
Where glad innocence reigns
'Mang the braes o Balquhidder.
Will ye go, etc.

The text concludes with a note about Robert Tannahill and other editions of the song.

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 06:32 AM

As Bruce Olson posted long ago about this (quoting an email from me) Tannahill did no more than slightly adapt a song by John Hamilton from 1792. Its tune was published by Bremner around 1760, which probably means the words, in some form, go back that far too.

I think McPeake's sole contribution is the "I will surely find another" bit, which is crap anyway and the song is better without it.

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 01:41 AM

Interesting link here.

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: interested
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 01:32 AM

If Mr McPeake of Belfast did not write this song, why is there no proof of this version before 1952? One of the above posters even claimed that he brought it to the U.S, did he know that there was a copyright on the song as Judy Collins give the McPeakes credit. Also where does Peter Kennedy stand in all of this as he is also listed as getting a cut? Did he know that this version was a more original copy than all of the rest.

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 01:50 PM

Sandy- What melody did you use when you recordeed for Mr. Holzman? As far as I know, McPeake's claim is based on a new, or substantially revised, air and some modifications to the Balquidder (or Balquither) text.

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From:
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 06:43 AM

The tune is an old scottish song of at least 250 years. the Current McPeake's (who i've seen play with the band Barnbrack) are the author of the song's words grandsons For any other help write to my above e-mail using Sessions as the subject Cheers

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: Alice
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 01:23 AM

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: GUEST,guest, leeneia
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 10:21 PM

I response to the comment that "our ancestors must have had rigorous training in voice" because old airs are so demanding, I have two thoughts to offer:

1. Some of these airs were no doubt written first for musical instruments such as the harp, flute or violin which have a much broader range than the usual human voice. Then someone decided to use them as a melody for a later poem. (Danny Boy comes to mind.)

2. Children and women sing (and talk) by bringing only the edges of their vocal folds together. When a man's voice "changes", he starts to sing by bringing the sides of the vocal folds together. However, if he keeps in practice, he can still use his childhood method and can sing very high. Some men can sing notes which are both very high and very pure. (I think this is called "countertenor.") My husband, who is just an ordinary church choir member, can sing from the bottom of the bass up to D above middle C well in the alto range, and could probably go higher.

It used to be an accepted style for a man to sing part of a song in his mature voice and part in his very high voice. I once heard a man do "Molly Malone" that way.

So ladies, don't think your voice lacks talent or beauty if you can't do what the guys can do!

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 09:19 PM

MMario, I am inclined to agree with you. It is rare that both words and air can be attributed with certainty to any individual. This is especially true with respect to the air, which is why I quoted the farmer. Irish song writers are cavalier when it comes to fitting a tune to their words. The bottom line is that the words take precedence over tune. In my experience it is extremely rare for the author of a tune to be known. The authors of such classics as "Úir Chill an Chreagáin", "an Bonnán Buidhe", "Úna Bhán", "Deus Meus Adiuva Me", "Rí an Domhnaigh" etc. are well known, but the authors of the tunes to which their lyrics are sung are totally anon. In Irish Tradition you are not dealing with objective truth most of the time, but with a music that survived in the mouths of the People such as the farmer already quoted. As Gráinne Yeats, the Harper, told me once when discussing the airs, our ancestors must have had a very rigorous training in voice, since the demands put on the singer, even the trained Classical Singer, make such a conclusion incontestable. Annraoi

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: MMario
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 01:26 PM

Judging by everything said, I think you would be "safest" to use Braes o'Balquidder

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: Kim C
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 01:07 PM

Okay. Let me add one more thing: if I am to include a version of this song in an 18th-19th century music program, am I safest and most historically accurate to use the Tannahill words and music?

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: GUEST,aldus
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 12:05 PM

Evidence already submitted here would indicate that Mr. MacPeake overextended his jurisdiction.

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: Kim C
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 12:01 PM

Since I posed the original question I believe I am within my grounds to say that I just want the facts. We know the lyrics came from Tannahill. If someone knows where the melody came from, please do tell. Did McPeake write it, or did he not? That's all I want to know.

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 06 Apr 00 - 08:25 PM

Kim C, Truth is a philosophical construct and has little to with a music that thrives on versions. What the farmer said has more to it than you might care to imagine. Annraoi

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: GUEST,Rich(stupidbodhranplayerwhodoesn'tknowanybet
Date: 06 Apr 00 - 06:12 PM

There are some who associate with Robbie Burns, but then there are some Scots who associate everything with Robbie Burns [BR] Rich

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: Kim C
Date: 06 Apr 00 - 03:52 PM

It is relevant to me, as I seek only the truth.

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 06 Apr 00 - 03:34 PM

The air is irrelevant to the present discussion. As the farmer said when leaving the fair with a bunch of ballad sheets (words only)under his arm. "I've got the words but sure I can get the air from the mountains." Annraoi

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: Kim C
Date: 06 Apr 00 - 03:29 PM

If that's true, then where does that melody come from? The "original" Braes o' Balquidder melody bears no resemblance to the one we've come to know and love.

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 05 Apr 00 - 06:48 PM

No way is this a product of the Mc Peakes. They sang it and made it popular in the 60's folk song revival but never claimed authorship. the present Young Francie Mc Peake's father (Wee Francie R.I.P.) told me personally that the song was the Tannahill song "The Braes of Balquidder". Its use as backing track to an Ad. on British T.V. recently led to threats from the Mc Peakes to sue. What we are dealing with here and now was gone into thoroughly in the local press. The threat was quietly dropped. But all this can be read in the Archives. Annraoi

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Apr 00 - 06:44 PM

through the magic of cut & paste...from one thread to another

I promised I'd get this to Jeri awhile back, so here is my opportunity....This is a digital photo from Songs of Scotland ...edited by George Farquhar Graham..circa 1850...(Child lists this book as one of his sources)

I am experimenting to see if digital photography is good enough to share stuff like this...WARNING..this is a BIG file..329,000 bytes...I will see if I can get readable files with less size. But I think it is good enough to see the tune and verses..plus some notes.

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 05 Apr 00 - 06:29 PM

The Stewart's of Blair claimed that Jock Stewart had written "I'm a man youse don't meet every day", but there are at least 4 traditional American versions of this Irish song, and one informant to Robert Gordon (Gordon MSS, Library of Congress) said in the 1920's that everybody was singing it about 1890. Claims to authorship which really amount to slight alterations of older songs are nothing new.

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: Kim C
Date: 05 Apr 00 - 06:03 PM

Well, thanks y'all, that does help. At least I can say with confidence it was not written by an adversary of Rob Roy. (Where these guys got that story, I don't know.)

Maybe Mr. McPeake was doing what Jimmie Driftwood often did: take an old song, revamp it, rearrange it, and claim an author's copyright. This is not to cast any aspersion on Jimmie Driftwood at all, because as far as I know, this is a perfectly legal practice. However, for researchers, it can be problematic as it often obscures the true origins of a song.

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 05 Apr 00 - 05:56 PM

But we know that McPeake didn't write much of the song. The earliest copy of Tannahill's song that I've seen is in 'The Pocket Encyclopedia of Scottish, English and Irish Songs', I, p. 237, 1816, where it is credited to Tannahill. [A collection of his songs had been published in the US in 1814, but I've never looked at it (in Library of Congress)] The work cited contains other songs by Tannahill and confirms the date of his birth as June 3, 1774.

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: Doctor John
Date: 05 Apr 00 - 03:03 PM

Aldus, One of the McPeak family said quite unambiguously that their father or grandfather had actually written the song and that was the end of the matter. I think this was in a programme about the Mc Peaks on Radio 2, almost certainly Jim Lloyd's "Folk on Two" and about five years ago. Dr John

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 05 Apr 00 - 02:01 PM

I recorded it for Elektra Records in 1959 (and taught it to Judy Collins in that year when she and I worked together at the Exodus in Denver). I had learned it from a field recording made of the McPeakes which I found in the BBC Recorded Programmes Library which was then housed at the Cecil Sharp House in London. Elektra was never sued by the McPeakes, which makes me wonder about the date of their copyright filing. Perhaps it was simply the obscurity of my Elektra album that served to protect Elektra. It did not, to put it mildly, overwhelm the early folk revival world. (wry smile emoticon inserted here)

In earlier threads on this subject, I think I have pointed to several other traditional versions of the song, including those collected from Carrie Grover in Maine. There is plenty of evidence to show that Francis McPeake's song is an adaptation of an older Scottish song derived from a Tannahill poem. I'll let the chips off of the old copyright block fall where they may.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 05 Apr 00 - 01:58 PM

Songs that have been around as long as Robert Tannahill's are bound to have a number of variants. There are three early 20th century tunes for two texts in 'The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection', IV, #862. Two others have tunes that were published in JFSS 9 (1906). These latter are stressed note and mode coded in file COMBCOD2.TXT on my website. Tannahill's songs were almost all originally published in small magazines in and around Paisley, and it's practically impossible to find original copies of his songs now.

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: Scotsbard
Date: 05 Apr 00 - 01:44 PM

Darn ... can't c&p from photos ...

Points of interest from Bill D's photo of Songs of Scotland (G.F.Graham c.1850) pages for those who don't wish to load 300kb of graphics:
Written by Robert Tanahill of Paisley, b.1774June03, d.1810May17.
Reference cited to similar airs in S.Fraser's 1816 Collection and R.A.Smith's (no date).

The origin of the words seems soundly in early 19th century Scotland, although possibly late in the 18th. The melody might be significantly older. Claiming copyright to more than arrangement certainly would seem inappropriate for anyone born within the last century.

Interesting links ... thank you!
~S~

ps: "Rambling Jack" did a decent show here last week.

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: GUEST,aldus
Date: 05 Apr 00 - 01:36 PM

My Grandfather came from Galway and I can recall hearing him sing this long before the sixties. Is Mr. McPeake the arranger or does he actually claim to have wriiten it ? I am very curious.

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 00 - 01:31 PM

The original version was by Robert Tannahill, the 'weaver bard of Paisley' and has been given in an earlier thread.

Subject: RE: Help: real origin of Wild Mountain Thyme
From: Doctor John
Date: 05 Apr 00 - 01:13 PM

Yes, the Mc Peaks say they wrote it in which case it's an Irish songs which is thought to be Scottish and was once recorded by a Geordie singer who everybody's thinks is Scottish. Did I hear somewhere that "Danny Boy" is in fact Scottish? Dr John