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How do you feel about cheat sheets?
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Subject: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Ebbie Date: 05 Apr 00 - 03:01 PM What are your thoughts about using a stand for sheet music or lyrics on stage? It bothers me- It seems to me you're not ready to perform it unless you know it. There's a local bluegrass group that uses them- it seems unprofessional, somehow. And when it comes to folk music- it seems to me that if you pay attention to the story or theme you're not going to get too far lost. Although I do understand having the beginning words or notes of a song taped out of sight on your instrument. Obviously you don't want to run dry! But maybe I'm just being picky? Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Bert Date: 05 Apr 00 - 03:07 PM On stage no, - informally, can't live without 'em. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Clinton Hammond2 Date: 05 Apr 00 - 03:23 PM Ummmm... I became book dependant a few years ago, but it's mostly a security blanket thing these days... It helps to have a list of titles just to help if you don't make set lists... But when you carry around as many songs as I do in a mind as besotted as mine is, it helps to have s lyric sheet infront of ya, especially for new material... The new band has already discussed this though, and the plan is to get off the book a.s.a.p.!! {~` |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: GUEST,Jim Dixon Date: 05 Apr 00 - 03:28 PM I think you're just being picky. (But I wouldn't have said so if you hadn't used those words first. No flaming here!) Peter and Lou Berryman, my favorite humorous songwriters, had a large loose-leaf notebook on a music stand in front of them when they performed here last year--and they were playing only songs they had written themselves! I figure, if they can get away with it, anyone else ought to, too. I found that, after a while, I didn't notice the cribs. That's probably due to the fact they are great deadpan performers and their songs are hilarious. Here's one example. DigiTrad has lots more. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Rob-IL Date: 05 Apr 00 - 03:37 PM The better show is made without notes, however, with so many folk songs, it would be very hard to finish a lot of the songs without lyrics... that is, unless you are only performing one or two songs.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: MK Date: 05 Apr 00 - 03:39 PM Depends on your ability to memorize things. I have over the years gigged and worked with many fine vocalists and bands. The vast majority of them do not use charts and cheat sheets...but I recognize other's necessity for having them. In my current job, when I go out to hear bands, if I see the musicians reading charts, then immediately this tells me this is not a self-contained ''tight'' band, but a group of jobbers who came together for the gig...and I tend to be less impressed with the overall presentation. Same holds true if I see a vocalist reading lyrics on stage. It simply looks much more professional to an audience if there are no charts on stage, nor a vocalist relying on them. But then again it depends on the nature and formality or informality of the gigs...and how professional an image you wish to project to your audience. But if you are a self contained band, and on a particular job, your resident (pick an instrument) was sick and you had to hire a sub, then it absolutely makes sense that they'd need charts, since they don't perform regularly with your ensemble. I'm lucky because after I've played any song for an hour or two, it's baked into the memory cells. If someone has shown me the positions for chords etc....then I recall those images in my mind and see them. If I learned a tune from a chart, then again I see the chart in my mind when I play. The best vocalists I know of have hundreds of songs in their heads. They rely on books or cheat sheats, as something to view before they get on stage to begin a set, as little freshers. The only paper work I personally like to see on a stage is the set list.....but this is just my opinion and my preference. To each his own and whatever works for you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: MK Date: 05 Apr 00 - 03:45 PM Just as an addendum to my previous post, if you are not blessed with the ability to memorize lyrics or music, then do what you have to do, and the audience be damned if they don't like. Whatever gets you through the set(s) and makes it work for you, and makes you feel comfortable on stage. You have to be comfortable and relaxed in order to really be able to ''give'' to and connect with an audience. A little nervousness is okay. Keeps you on your toes! |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: GUEST,Jim Dixon Date: 05 Apr 00 - 03:51 PM More thoughts on cheat sheets: If you're going to use one, don't try to hide it. Put it on a music stand smack in front of you so you can read it without looking down. Make sure the audience sees your face instead of the top of your head. Classical musicians (except soloists, for some reason) use sheet music all the time, and no one criticizes them for it. Why not folkies? |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: GUEST Date: 05 Apr 00 - 03:54 PM The audience be damned?? wow.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Ebbie Date: 05 Apr 00 - 03:55 PM I agree with all of you so far! I'm all for copies for everybody when you're learning chords, runs, lyrics, whatever else. And I like set lists, (complete with the designated key for each piece!), and nudge words to begin verses. And certainly when someone else is sitting in, a cheat sheet is permissible. When we play for dances in an open band format we provide chord chart books for anyone who wants them. A chord chart can be a lifesaver but it sure can be a crutch too. Which, basically, is how I feel about a music stand on stage. But I don't feel too strongly about it. :) Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Joe Offer Date: 05 Apr 00 - 03:59 PM I'm over 50 - I deserve to have cheat sheets. I used to be able to memorize songs in a flash when I was in my teens and twenties. If I tried that now, I'd get stuck on every song I sang. Would it be better for me to sing only the stuff I learned 30 years ago? I don't think so. It seems that for me to memorize a song, I have to sing it in front of a group several times. The audience response helps me fix the song in my mind, and it also helps me work out the fine points of a song. For some reason, I can't do that by singing to myself. Still, I try to rely on my cheat sheets as little as possible. I find the Mudcat Hearme sessions are helpful, because I get a chance to sing new songs for people, and they can't see me use my cheat sheets. If I were singing for a paying audience, that would be a different matter - then I think it would behoove me to have every song memorized. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: MMario Date: 05 Apr 00 - 04:08 PM I've never had the luxery of being able to use crib sheets while performing, as virtually all my performances have been "in charactor" and hence the notes would have been very inappropriate. Thus, I tend to feel that if I need notes, I am not prepared..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Jon Freeman Date: 05 Apr 00 - 04:22 PM I think it looks better without them but I go to listen... Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: kendall Date: 05 Apr 00 - 04:24 PM I overhear a lot of comments about people who need cheat sheets. Some of them are not kind, such as," book carriers" or, those book people.IMHO there two kinds of people, performers, and entertainers. If you need a book of all your songs, you are a performer. (Not that there is anything wrong with that) Actually, I dont hear such comments from audience members, just from other entertainers. It really doesn't look professional, but, professional folksinger is an oxymoron anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: GUEST,Allan S. Date: 05 Apr 00 - 05:38 PM I did not want to get involved with any discussions Since I was told to bugger off By someone who did not agree with me. However Joe Offer hit it right on the head.At a certain age it becomes difficult if not impossible to memorize fresh material. I am 71 and have been singing for almost 50 years Yes I need the words in front of me if I am to sing any new material other wise it would be the same songs that I learned 30 or more years ago. My MD calls it the aging process and it happens to us all, There is no way to get around it. It is something we can ALL look foreward to if we like it or not. So sing on and enjoy it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Date: 05 Apr 00 - 05:57 PM Had a nice phone call with Pete Seeger who is now 80. His memory isn't the same as when he was a younger man and so he has had trouble getting started with "This Land Is Your Land". I'd take a performance with Pete using the yellow pages or a dictionary as a crib sheet in front of him if he wanted it. Crib sheets don't always mean a substandard performance. Can't generalize about this. There's something exciting about hearing a new song taped to the microphone by a writer/singer. A lot has to do with whether the performer buries his/her nose in the words and forgets the audience. Only problem I have is with Rise Up Singing. Print's too small for me so I call it "Rise Up Squinting". Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Apr 00 - 06:01 PM For a singer who isn't playing an instrument, a book or a word sheet hed in the hands can be used as a prop, the same way a "performance poet" will sometimes use it.
With a song that's new, or tta I haven't sung for sometime, I like to have the words handy - skim through them whie I'm waiting to sing, have them somewhere I can refer to if I run dry. But if I'm playing an instrument, I'll try not to, and most times I won't need to. For one thing, if you're playing an instrument, you can stick in a crafty instrumental while your memory battles through. I thinkm of the written words as a safety harness rather than a cheat. They are there in case you fall, and since you know they are there, you don't fall. And if you know you are going to need them, use them as part of the act. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: kendall Date: 05 Apr 00 - 06:31 PM I guess I'm lucky. I'm 65, and, I still learn songs quite quickly. Vitamin E and Ginko Biloba. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Jeremiah McCaw Date: 05 Apr 00 - 07:09 PM Cheat sheets? Hate 'em. Use em'. *sigh* |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Caitrin Date: 05 Apr 00 - 09:33 PM If I'm going to be singing in public, I always try to know the song well. Now, the lyrics will get intensely studied just offstage before performing, but they stay offstage. But that's just my personal thing. I hate looking in the slightest unprepared. Just my slightly obsessive nature showing through. However, other people can use lyric sheets as much as they want, as far as I'm concerned. It doesn't especially bother me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Mbo Date: 05 Apr 00 - 10:08 PM Ah yes, Mbo the cheat-sheet junkie! I used them ALL the time! But of course, I only play for ME so no one can complain! I've only got a few songs, words & chords, completely memorized. It's not like I have all day to sit around memorizing songs! --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Bill D Date: 05 Apr 00 - 10:40 PM It is really nice not to need 'em...if you KNOW the song cold, you can concentrate more on delivery....however, I will keep a 'reminder' sheet near sometimes. The only thing that bothers me is people who simply do not KNOW the song and are stumbling thru it, inventing a tune and reading haltingly, just because they want their turn ( I see this a LOT!)...A cheat sheet should allow one to perform a song smoothly that they might otherwise mess up...like a song you have not done in awhile, but need to coax out for a special occasion, or a new song you are 'almost' sure of...........If you can't sing the song even WITH the cheat sheet, dont! |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: JamesJim Date: 05 Apr 00 - 11:44 PM I've used "cheat sheets" to remind me of song title and often, the first words of verses. Prefer not to. Just feel more in control when I don't. Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: rangeroger Date: 05 Apr 00 - 11:53 PM I firmly believe in "paper memory". If I'm doing a gig I try to do songs that I'm familiar with and that my neural synapses will allow me to dredge out of my "archives".My books are always near to me,however.for those songs I know only slghtly,or that I need to refresh.Plus,over the years,I have accumulated scads of sheets of notebook paper with songs on them that I had learned at one time and then not sung for a while.It"s always a pleasure to find one of these little treasures and say " I remember that song,it was agood one".And then do it again. I've just been doing that with Elton John's "First Episode at Hienton" Now Valerie's a wooommann. rr |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Cap't Bob Date: 05 Apr 00 - 11:54 PM I personally do not use them and with my eyesight it would be next to impossible anyway. If you plan to use them and are playing outside be sure to take along a lot of clothes pins. I was watching a fellow one time who was playing everything from the sheets. The problem was that it was a windy day and the pages kept flipping over. It was funny and rather sad all at the same time. Cap't Bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 06 Apr 00 - 12:26 AM I suffered a Traumatic Brain Injury about 14 years ago, and lost a good chunk of memory, as well as the ability to memorize-- I spent about three months writing and learning chord/melody arrangements of Christmas music for a well paying set of seasonal gigs--the day I was to start, the whole thing came up blank, and I have never been able to remember a note-- I was pretty disturbed, and felt like giving up, when I ran into an old acquaintance, Joe Valino who was quite a well known Jazz/Pop singer and songwriter--Joe had had a stroke, and couldn' remember the lyrics to songs he'd been singing for thirty years--and he was still performing!! He would write out the words for requests on napkins, pieces of paper, anything he could find, and he have two or three people helping him out--he had no hesitation about holding sheet music--and his voice was just as good as it had ever been-- He told me,"Do whatever it takes" I think of that advice everyday-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Mark Cohen Date: 06 Apr 00 - 01:07 AM I think if you're going to cheat you should definitely change the sheets. But seriously, I'd much rather watch someone use a cheat sheet than suffer with someone who refuses to use one but constantly forgets the words in the middle of the song. The song is what's important, not the singer's ego. Aloha, Mark (already feeling the effects of ginkgo deficiency at only 46!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Rick Fielding Date: 06 Apr 00 - 01:19 AM Great Line Mark. Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: WyoWoman Date: 06 Apr 00 - 01:24 AM Frank -- "Rise Up Squinting" -- love it! Well, since I'm now a weekend warrior - and an infrequent one at that - with my singing, I use cheat sheets when I need 'em. My work schedule is intense and the music is for fun. I do like to perform and people like to hear me (at least they SAY so, but you know how nice people can be). I wish I could memorize a bazillion songs, but at this point in my life I figure if I have time to show up, rehearse a couple of times and then perform, I'm doing pretty well. So the answer is: Hate 'em, use 'em when I must. Hope for someday, one day when I won't need to... WyoWoman |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 06 Apr 00 - 01:40 AM Kendall, I've been a professional entertainer performing Celtic/humorous(?) for over 30 years and I take Vitamin E and Gingko Balboa (no relation to Rocky) when I can remember. I have over 700 songs and fragments in my head, and until recently I have never felt the need for a cheat sheet.Songs I learned over thirty years ago but had forgotten are coming back at an alarming rate, and stuff I learned within the last 5 years is going. I still don't use music stands or cheat sheets, or set lists, even when I'm singing a new song for the first time, and I can tell you folks there's nothing like that frisson of fear that you'll dry up on a new song especially if you've given it a big introduction. Talk about pressure! All the best. Seamus |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: DADGBE Date: 06 Apr 00 - 02:36 AM So far, the prevailing opinion is, "Do what you have to do" and I agree. It's interesting,though, that many of us still feel uneasy about using written lyrics. When we sing for ourselves, of course it doesn't matter. But most of appear to feel that props can become a barrier between singer and listeners. So the problem isn't really the memory aid. It's about getting a song across to an audience. That's a skill which can be practised, song sheets or no. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Callie Date: 06 Apr 00 - 04:26 AM I think that if you need the music in front of you, you don't really know it and shouldn't perform it. I don't even use music at the local folk club. My memory's lousy, but I learn songs in the car on the way to & from work by listening to tapes. Once you know a song inside out, you can start to make it your own, rather than just sing a song coz it's there. However, I'm not offended when others use 'em! --Callie |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Spider Tom Date: 06 Apr 00 - 06:24 AM Poets work from books, that's O.K. Surgeons work using monitors, scopes and all sorts of assorted doo-flangers, that's O.K. Engineers used to use their slide rules and books, but now use an overworked laptop (Oo! Eer!,sounds a bit rude,that's O.K.) Air piloys use screens, meters, maps, charts,radar (assorted hostesses) and computers (I'm sure I wouldnt want them to try their hand at whatever, without their security-blankets)and that's O.K. I sing songs containing all the above charactors and I need my cheat sheets. Too many words, too many songs and too little memory installed within my head, for me to get through the hurdles I set myself. Also in this way I can always perform songs at a whim depending on the mood in the room, and thats O.K. So, reach for a cheat sheet, if it makes you complete. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Mbo Date: 06 Apr 00 - 08:11 AM Tell 'em Spider Tom! --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Crowhugger Date: 06 Apr 00 - 08:34 AM So, how is it that choirs who rehearse weekly don't seem like unprofessional jobbers with their bookful of music and words in hand, yet for bluegrass or folk etc, many see it as an indication that one is at a less-than-professional performance? I don't get it. CH |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: AndyG Date: 06 Apr 00 - 08:43 AM I use so called "cheat-sheets" all the time, this is because I know my limits. I'm likely to freeze in the middle of a line and lose the lyric entirely when I do.
I do not regard preventing this happening as cheating.
I'd be interested to know your answers to the following questions:
1) Do you regard singing from a songsheet as;
2) Do you perform songs yourself
Answers by personal message please. I'll post the results if I get sufficient replies to be significant.
AndyG |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: DonMeixner Date: 06 Apr 00 - 08:44 AM I'm of two minds on this. My Total Accessibility Mind says, " If you need a reasonable accommodation to do your job, then accommodate." My Performing Mind says if you need to use sheet music, you should save the song until you know it. Eye contact with the audience is a major tool to use and you can't use it when you are looking at the words. Also as I approach middle age the words need to be bigger and bigger all the time. That means bigger sheets. The members of my band are always at odds with each other about this too. I think that if we don't know a song well enough to do it without sheets we shouldn't attempt it just because some one requested it. Not so with others in the band. Still, we've been a band for 30 years. My feeling is its better to not do a request and substitute something else than it is to do a poor job of it. Every body but one in the audience hears a botched job and one person says, "Thanks for trying." I've seen Seamus a dozen or so times and shared a bill with him half as often and I've never heard him flub a line. Of course it could be live and it could be Memorex. :-)(Milli M'Kennedy). Regards Don |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: AndyG Date: 06 Apr 00 - 08:47 AM Oh yes...
3) Why is this a "BS" thread ?
AndyG |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: black walnut Date: 06 Apr 00 - 09:24 AM i studied classical music for many years...nobody played in my orchestra without the music on the stand. nobody sang in my choirs without the music in their hands. and what about those conductors, who should have known the music better than the rest of us? they used their music books too. a few years ago i joined a folk-music song circle. it's a miracle i stayed with the group, because i received frequent hammering about the fact that i was singing with words and playing with chords much of the time. it's a constant theme of tension in our 'informal, supportive, non-judgemental' group. after so many years of using the music, and memorizing only a small amount of it, i find performing formally or informally without cheat sheets very difficult. i am in awe of those who know a thousand songs and can retrieve them flawlessly at 2 am, but i am not among them, and never will be. that said, i have taken a GIANT step forward. when i began studying celtic harp a year ago, i asked my teacher (sharlene wallace) to help me play 'by ear', rather than from a book. the results have astounded me. not only can i play and accompany without notes on paper, i have found that the part of my brain which learns songs and plays all of my instruments is loosening up and starting to find a new confidence in knowing words and playing instruments without the paper. it takes me longer than most, but i actually have a 'repertoire' of folk music that i can deliver without the cheat sheets. what i dislike so much is the judgementalism that comes along with this topic. i have been insulted and centered out for using words for songs in the 'safe' world of the song circle. i have been told that because i have all of this training and a music degree, that i should have no problem with this. i have been told that the music is so much better when the singer/instrumentalist is free of the page. yes, i have had some others jump to my defence. but nonetheless, it takes a lot of guts to sit at the piano or dulcimer or harp or sing a cappella without the notebook, when you've grown up learning music from the paper. so, let's all do what we need to do. and let's learn new skills. but let's not continually feel that we need to apologize for what we do when we're doing our very best. long live folk music! ~black walnut |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Mooh Date: 06 Apr 00 - 09:28 AM Good discussion! I use and need cheat sheets. Some songs are in my head, others aren't. One band I'm in doesn't play frequently enough for me to dispose of my books (all looseleaf binders) and has a repertoire of hundreds of songs and tunes. However, if there is a firm set list, I'll only take on stage what I need, keep the music stand low and unobtrusive, make a conscious effort to avoid the stand when I don't need it, and look up at the crowd alot (I obviously don't wear bifocals). Even a rock band I recently quit which had a well rehearsed 40 or so songs, meant that I needed some reminder taped to my amp/mic stand/monitor/floor/set list or whatever. I am not the front man so I don't feel it interfers with my persona, but I'm not sure that it would if I was. I recently have been recording solo material most of which was originally written by me and for me to sing. (Sometimes I write for others.) I have trouble memorizing even my own stuff but I'm not reading the music so much as being reminded or comforted by it in the studio. I discovered long ago that cheat sheets need respect too, which makes it easier to get away with using them live. Use dark print on a light background, large print, reinforced 3 ring holes, have a backup copy at home and in your gig bag or car, arrange them so that either one page or facing pages will do so there's no page turning during songs (or even have a couple of songs open at a time to reduce the use of the book), mark the pages with key and capo uses, writer's name and maybe a bit of history about the song. The idea for me is to make the stand and/or cheat sheets as invisible as possible while making the performance appear natural. I often have my stand off to one side a bit so it's not too obvious. A high quality stand is vital because a cheap one will eventually and inevitably collapse. I have spent 20 years trying to avoid the cheat sheet syndrome, but I do much better when I accommodate it. Peace, Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Easy Rider Date: 06 Apr 00 - 09:51 AM Before you criticise a performer for using a "cheat sheet" on stage, close your eyes and LISTEN to the performance. Is it good? Can you tell that (s)he's using a cheat sheet? I bet everybody uses them in the studio. Can you tell, when you are listening to a CD? |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Ebbie Date: 06 Apr 00 - 12:39 PM The main way I feel less served when seeing someone on stage using the cheat sheets (unfortunate term!) is when they are locked onto the books, glancing only peripherally at the audience. It seems to make a rollicking song less rollicking, a sad song less sad. We in the audience can't see that they're listening to each other or are aware of us. (It's too bad that human's ears aren't like those of horses and cats- if you could see the ears flicking and cocking back and forth there'd be no doubt about it.) But when it comes to chamber music or a chorale group, or an orchestra, to me it's more like visible background music- and yes, I dooften close my eyes to listen. That said, I don't begrudge the use of the sheets- I just think that it's not the optimum way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: kendall Date: 06 Apr 00 - 01:21 PM Comparing a choral group with a single performer, is like saying "What's good for the goose is good for the gander."Thats just not so. Whats good for the goose would be quite painful and degrading for the gander!! Hey, if you MUST use cheat sheets, avoid picky people. Or, ask yourself, "Whose problem is this, theirs or mine?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 06 Apr 00 - 01:35 PM Well, Ebbie and Callie, and the rest of you who condescend to allow us to use our music--I am truly curious about how much variety there is in your performance material--are you among the hordes who "know" three hundred songs and one arrangement? Maybe I should come to listen to you with my red pencil, and note everytime you have fudged the real melody and sung a chord note instead--or the times that you stuck a measure in between phrases, or played the wrong chords, because you didn't really know the melody when you worked them out--or twenty other things that people who don't look at the music, don't count the beats, and figure that their version is as good as anyone elses, and better than mine, because I have the music-- As a disabled person, for whom musical notation. fake sheets, lyric sheets, etc are necessary assistive technology, I regard these persistant and unyielding remarks as offensive--it has been explained why these things are necessary, and you keep pounding away-- Would you say that I shouldn't come onto the stage until I can do it without my cane? |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Allan C. Date: 06 Apr 00 - 01:38 PM Odd. Every time I look at this thread title it reads: How do you feel about clean sheets? Guess it is time for new glasses. Then I'll be able to read all those tiny notes I have taped to my guitar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: clansfolk Date: 06 Apr 00 - 01:38 PM Can't see a problem using stands (or list stuck to side of Guitar) - every major professional orchestra in the world uses them - all TV productions have "Dummy" boards - no there's nowt wrong with aide memoirs it's the music that counts - and a lot of us "old 'uns" can't remember all the words, order and keys whilst doing a 3hr stint especially those of us who change their sets at most venues. Keep singing with or without the aides Pete |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: BlueJay Date: 06 Apr 00 - 01:50 PM I'd probably choose to NEVER play in public if I couldn't use my lyric sheets. Depends on the situation I guess. I'm not a pro, and only play informal type situations where no one really seems to mind. I have the lyrics and sometimes chords(if not already internalized), to hundreds of songs all typed out, in case someone requests "Walk Away Renee" or I want to ham up "Barabara Ann" for some odd reason. If I were to play a "serious" gig, I would stick to the material that I know well, and practice like hell beforehand. I'm reminded of Steve Goodman, trying to remember the words to Michael Smith's "Wonderful World of Sex":
I can't remember the words to the verses, |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Ebbie Date: 06 Apr 00 - 01:50 PM OK, OK! I'm backing off... with apologies to all. I was merely ruminating on optimum conditions. (And M. Ted, I imagine you would agree that your physical situation is not optimum? I have to wear glasses- I don't begrudge the use of glasses- but in an optimum world I wouldn't need glasses. And now, can we go back to being friends? |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 06 Apr 00 - 02:36 PM If I need a cane, or glasses, or any assistive technology, it is my right to use it or not, without having someone like you coming along and making a comment about what is optimum or not-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: black walnut Date: 06 Apr 00 - 02:58 PM oh, come on! give ebbie a break. i don't think this thread is about the 'right' to use or not use cheat sheets, for whatever reasons. it's about what we like or don't like about it, in our own performing, or in others' performing. and that's a totally valid thing to discuss here in the forum. up above i talked mostly about my own use of crib sheets, primarily in a song circle situation. ON STAGE i almost always stick to the stuff i know cold...although i have sometimes used a sheet for tunings and first words. it frees me to connect with my song and/or instruments, my guitar player and the audience. when watching/listening to others ON STAGE, i have to admit that in the realm of folk music, the use of music stands almost always takes away from the performance. not always, but usually.....in my humble opinion. but there are other, more graceful ways, to cheat! ~black walnut
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: MMario Date: 06 Apr 00 - 03:01 PM The general consensus seems to be use them or not, individuals choice. As I said before, I am not given a choice under most circumstances, and thus don't use them in others. I felt strange using music when singing over HearMe the other day, and no one could even see it! But THAT is due to circumstances, not whether or not it is "right" for me to use it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Bert Date: 06 Apr 00 - 03:04 PM It seems from reading all these messages that most of the 'sheet' users do it to help with the words. Is there anyone else out there like me that rarely has trouble with the words and regularly uses a cheat sheet for the chords? I know Spaw gets on at me about the old CRS, but the tin ear is much worse. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 06 Apr 00 - 03:27 PM What it is about is different for you and me--and, unfortunately, you are interested in my hearing what it is about for you, but you want to disregard what it is about for me-- I think that when you make statements about what is "optimum" you are imposing your judgement--and I particularly resent it when people who make a show about being non-judgemental and accepting about performers musical abilities and tastes turn around and judge pass judgment on people for things like whether someone uses a cane- as in "I would imagine that you would agree that your physical situation is not optimum" The whole point is that if I can do what I say I'm going to do, if I can play what I say I'm going to play, you have no right to make any sort of statement about how you don't think it is "optimum"--
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: black walnut Date: 06 Apr 00 - 03:42 PM Bert: chords and words, both. trouble and trouble. MTed: we're interested in what everybody thinks. Ebbie: good thread. Addition to topic: i have a friend who hangs little crib sheets from his tuning pegs. they look like little 'for sale' signs. it's quite funny, really. he knows we all chuckle at it and he doesn't care a hoot....good for him. ~black walnut |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Kim C Date: 06 Apr 00 - 03:44 PM We play some of those way old songs that have twenty million verses. Mister often tapes reminder notes to the top of his guitar. A friend of mine put together a very nice songbook, with lyrics only, tied up with a ribbon and all that, so if I need it, it's there. Use it a lot around the campfire and living room, only used it once performing solo. Looks nice when you're standing there holding it. Now for Christmas songs, I put together something like my friend's songbook, only much smaller, and made several copies (don't worry, it's all PD stuff) so that when we play holiday events, people can sing along with us. Besides, we only do Christmas songs about two months out of the year, and just can't remember them all. I say, do what you have to do to get the job done. After all, isn't how the music makes you -feel- the most important thing? |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Caitrin Date: 06 Apr 00 - 03:54 PM Hm...I was just thinking about a public performance situation. In an informal setting, I'll use cheat sheets without the slightest qualms. And if I'm playing guitar, the chord sheet is always out! There are so few songs that I'm confident of that I don't dare try to just play something. But, I don't do any actual formal performance with guitar. I also sing in a choral group. We all use music, because the stuff we sing is very complicated, and we're usually using our weekly two hour meeting to get cutoffs and dynamics and the nuances of the music down. If we have the notes and words there to rely on, we can concentrate on other aspects of the music. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Apr 00 - 04:16 PM Calling them "cheat sheets" is a cop-out. It implies that what matters is that people listening to you are going to sneer at you because they see singiong as some kind of obstacle course, in which a feat of memory is important.
What matters is what helps you sing the song the best way you can sing it. It shouldn't be about trying to impress people that you can remember it. Reciting a page out of the telephone book would be much harder, and a much more impressive feat of memory.
I find that if I sing a song from a word sheet or a book, even if I'm doing it into a microphone on my own to record it, it doesn't come out as well as if I sing it without the words in front of me - provided I remember the words. And if I'm playing a guitar and I have to keep squinting at the words it's even worse.
So if it's a song where I need the words at this particular time (it's too new to have in my mind yet, or it's too long since I last sang it), I want the words as big as possible and easy to see. Trying to give a false impression that you know all the words if you don't is phony and a waste of time. And it doesn't work either, unless maybe you're using braille.
Some of the best traditional singers I've seen always have a songbook, one they made themselves, or which was passed down in the family. Using it is part of their tradition, even when they hardly even glance at it.
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 06 Apr 00 - 04:38 PM I tend to keep notecards with chord charts on them, with the chords layed out in patterns--so I can immediately key onto the part that is unique to each tune(and that I might confuse with another tune) I play both Just a Gigalo and The Sheik of Araby, and I tend to blank when I get to the bridge in each--just a sneak peak at the chords brings it all back and none the wiser-- The lyrics are separate--as I must emphasize, I know how to play this stuff, I just need key words, or prompts, when I go blank-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Ebbie Date: 06 Apr 00 - 04:54 PM I am sorry, M. Ted. I used 'optimum' in the sense of 'the best of all possible worlds'. And since you stated your situation matter-of-factly I chose to accept it that way. I didn't mean to offend. Let me go on record as believing that EVERYONE should make music in any way that he or she wishes and can manage. I, personally, plan to go out with a tune in my head, and if I can manage it, a song in my heart. So here's to ya! Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: kendall Date: 06 Apr 00 - 05:48 PM Right on Ebbie..as Tom Paxton wrote .."we're gonna go out singing when we go" I love that line. Now, as I stated before, the only ones I ever hear bitch about cheat sheets and song books are other performers. Do we play to please them, or the audience? |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 06 Apr 00 - 11:40 PM Granted you can sing the song with a cheat-sheet/music stand, but when you want to close your eyes, throw back your head and belt one out with feeling, you need to know the words/chords. Or if you like to establish eye-contact with your audience to sing a song, the stand gets in the way. However, if you're playing to an audience of blind people (as I have) then it doesn't really matter. All the best. Seamus. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 06 Apr 00 - 11:58 PM I have had occasion to read speeches, poems, literary texts of various sorts, and I assure you all that it is eminently possible to make as much eye contact as anyone could want with an audience, and to roll your head back, down or sideways, if that is what you want to do--and even to project great emotion with your voice, all while reading from a printed page-- The tricks for doing this sort of thing are generally taught in the first few days of a public speaking or interpretive reading class, and in performance classes for singers as well-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Little Neophyte Date: 07 Apr 00 - 12:43 AM So for, it seems I do not have too much difficulties learning the lyrics to the songs I am working on. But I must admit, my repertoire is still kind of small. I make it a goal to memorize the lyrics before I have my next lesson with Rick Fielding. That way I get the song down pat and I also have a chance to perform as if I were on stage. I have found it to be a very good habit that I plan to keep up. One day I plan to show up to my lesson wearing an evening gown as part of my rehearsal for Carnegie Hall. Little Neo |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Callie Date: 07 Apr 00 - 12:57 AM Hey, M.Ted: My unreserved apology if anything I posted was insulting. I was merely posting from MY point of view. Until I know a song without looking at the music, I don't consider that I know it - and I perform in lots of different groups: folk, jazz, choral. However, that's just me. It's different for everyone. I was very influenced by a jazz teacher who told us that while we were still looking at the page for the next chord change, we couldn't possibly play it well as a whole piece. Same goes in other kinds of music. For me, if I have to keep looking out for what's coming next I get tense and forget the audience. If you ever come to one of my performances with a red pencil, it will probably be blunt by the time you leave! While I (and others) strive for perfection, no one is. We all do the best we can guided by whatever our musical voice, inspiration and experience allows. Long live all kinds of music - cheat sheets or no! --Callie |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 07 Apr 00 - 01:32 PM Apologies accepted all around--and, a day later, as I look back at what I said, I may have put too fine a point on it- Your Jazz teacher was probably referring to your particular situation--Jazz players work from charts and arrangements all of the time--especially in the studio, and especially when working with big band type arrangements-- As pointed out above, orchestral musicians always read--and never attempt to memorize--they are counting all the time--everything comes from the score--increasingly, mainstream "Jazz" players require strong formal music training, because much of the music they work with is through-composed, (which is to say, it has a more complex architecture than simply that of repeating the verse structure of a song) in the manner of classical music--so memorization is not practical-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: BlueJay Date: 07 Apr 00 - 01:51 PM Wow- what a worthwhile thread! A subject of substance and wide interest, a few disagreements with no flaming, and many useful insights. In other words, a discussion! |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: kendall Date: 07 Apr 00 - 03:01 PM Great isn't it? This is what the Mudcat is all about. Now, this idea of perfection.. does this have a place in folk music? sounds a bit elitist to me. As far as I'm concerned, if it is done with feeling and conviction and done reasonably well, thats perfect enough. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: TTCM (retired) Date: 07 Apr 00 - 05:56 PM That's right Bluejay. Amazing what a little bit of shock therapy will do to this place. Rest assured all, that even when we are quiet, we're still here, lurking. For those many fans who would like to express an opinion good or bad about our presence here and the effects it's had on the Forum, you can now contact us at: ttcm_2000@yahoo.com Let us know what sort of threads you'd like to see us start; who is worthy of special attention, etc. Either myself, Threadie, A.C. or a couple of others in the ''collective'' will be glad to get back to you. See, McGrath, we're not cowards. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Clinton Hammond2 Date: 07 Apr 00 - 06:57 PM I'm reminded however... The last time Garnet Rogers played here, he was playing a song he'd written so recently that he had to have the lyrics in front of him... If it's good enough for a great like him, gods damn but it's good enough fer me!!!
{~` |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Mbo Date: 07 Apr 00 - 07:17 PM Oh, I don't know, M.Ted--I always had to memorize my classical guitar stuff. You have to practise each tiny section over and over and over again...not to mentional that classical guitar music is more than just chords & words, it's, well, classical music! And I supposed it holds for all classical musician soloists, that we must memorize. For my final recital last May, I had to memorize 6 complex pieces in only 4 months...needless to say, not an easy thing to do. I had more than a few brain slips! --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Barbara Date: 07 Apr 00 - 08:03 PM From my own experience, attending a song circle where paper was anathema, I found that memorizing the songs I wanted to sing vastly improved them. I would therefore recommend to those of you that have the words in front of you all the time that you learn one thing to perform without the book...if you can.. One of the fascinating things I've found out about myself is that I own two separate ways of learning and performing music; one analytical and one intuitive. For a long time I relied primarily on the intuitive for folk and the analytical for classical. Joining the song circle above forced me to use more analytical on folk, and to work things up as performances rather than "oh, let's sing something, get the book". It's harder than you might think to make your mind jump the gap. I am in awe of many classically trained musicians' performance ability, and then am surprised to discover that they lock up totally when asked to improvise, or even just change something from how it is written. So it seems to me that we need to use both analytical and intuitive mind to make a song sound good, and we should all keep stretching whatever ways we need to to strengthen our skills. If you're paper dependent, try it without; if you're entirely an ear performer, try writing out a piece of music you routinely perform. Blessings, Barbara |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Caitrin Date: 07 Apr 00 - 11:40 PM I don't think classically trained musicians always clam up when asked to improvise or change what's written. Jack Bruce of Cream and all the members of Yes are good examples of gifted improvisers who were classically trained. Good musicians are good musicians. However, it's true that in orchestral or choral situations, things aren't usually changed. Also, the decision to change things rests with the director, not the performers. That probably does result in a lot of people being a little afraid of messing with elements of the music. Mbo, I guess soloists tend to be more likely to memorize because the performer is more in focus than in a group situation. There are also fewer elements to work with as a soloist, no matter how complex the music is. When you have to be note and rhythm perfect with other people, memorization is a lot tougher. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Mbo Date: 07 Apr 00 - 11:57 PM Yes, so imagine just HOW talented "da men" like John Williams or Pepe Romero must be to be able to play Rodrigo's mind-boggling "Concierto de Aranjuez" from memory--WITH an orchestral accompaniament. I can't imagine the amount of time and practise it takes to memorize things like that! No wonder John & Pepe (and Dr.Frank from ECU) just close their eyes and never look at the audience--they need total concentration. --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Mooh Date: 08 Apr 00 - 10:55 AM I've spent alot of time thinking about this since my last post to this thread due mostly to the thought that I am unable to recall quickly enough the elements of what I want to play/sing, sometimes. This lack of instant recall was also a problem in a former occupation that required me to be involved in (sometimes hostile)negotiations. It isn't always true that I can't recall, but often enough that I will stumble unexpectedly. Normally I would just blow this off but I've been watching my Dad degenerate mentally for a few years as a result of strokes and the way his mind works now is strange compared to his former mind, and I wonder if my recall troubles could be genetic. Dad used to remember everything he ever encountered, recite everything, sing everything, play instinctively, and had a very inventive mind, but in later years just couldn't find some things readily or quickly from his head even though those things were still there. So when I can't exist without cheat sheets, well, maybe it's who I am as much as I what I am able to train myself to do. Nevertheless, I will keep trying...what was I talking about? Peace, Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: Bugsy Date: 10 Apr 00 - 05:44 AM Hate them! Don't use them... With 2 exceptions, when I made them into the centrepiece of my act. Cheers Bugsy |
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Subject: RE: BS: How do you feel about cheat sheets? From: GMT Date: 10 Apr 00 - 09:17 AM I don't play out these days but when I did cheat sheets were the order of the day. Chords and words. That band played many covers and it seemed only fair to the audience that the words were right. They often knew the words by heart and would of course here them in their heads. It always jars me when a standard pop song has its words changed by someone who doesn't care if they get it right or not. Traditional folk may be different in this respect. Almost all frontmen/women (newsreaders, broadcasters, speachmakers) use prompts. The 16k of memory I was issued with back in the fifties means I always use them too. I admire greatly musicians and singers who can remember dozens of tunes. I never will and do not intend to try, lifes to short and I'd rather play than practise (oops another bone of contention). Cheers a good thread. Gary |
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