What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Kim C
Date: 06 Apr 00 - 11:00 AM

But Mbo, I only started playing the fiddle at age 31, and the guitar at about 23. Maybe it wasn't so hard because I had piano education from about age nine... didn't have to start at complete ground zero.

Anyway, I haven't tried that thumb thing. I never would have thought of it until I saw a friend of mine play, who is BEYOND MIGHTY GOOD, and he did it. I said, Jonathan, did I see you do that? And he grinned kinda sheepishly, yeah..... (come to think of it, I've seen bass players pull that trick)

For the record, our favorite household guitar is a cheap used Epi that we picked up for $60 at a neighborhood music store, so we could have something to take camping and not worry about losing a large investment. I have a nice guitar, Mister has a nicer guitar, but that little cheap nylon-string baby is so easy to play, and has a really good sound. It's great for practicing those nasty chords! (I think because the action is a little lower than on the other ones.)

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: SDShad
Date: 06 Apr 00 - 11:33 AM

Sorry, flatttop. I go into Usenet mode far too often. ["There are already a million monkeys with a million typewriters--and Usenet is nothing like Shakespeare."] YYMV=your mileage may vary.

Chris

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: SDShad
Date: 06 Apr 00 - 11:33 AM

Sorry, flatttop. I go into Usenet mode far too often. ["There are already a million monkeys with a million typewriters--and Usenet is nothing like Shakespeare."] YMMV=your mileage may vary.

Chris

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 06 Apr 00 - 11:42 AM

I've played both the barred and "thumbed" F chords as long as I can remember---currently trying to remember last week---but the value of the thumbed version started to hit home in the early sixties when I had the chance to watch the great country blues players up close. I was hearing all these wonderful licks and runs but their left hands seemed almost motionless. It was as though they were holding onto a ball bat or a golf club. Yogi Berra is quoted as saying "You can observe a lot just by watching" but that wasn't necessarily true with those guys.

Some years back, I taped a PBS special featuring a reunion concert by the Everly Brothers. The history portion featured very short clips of Ike and Mose and if you play that part over and over, you can start to make out what they are doing. Of course the thumbed F pattern figures strongly in their playing.

My brother gave me a commercial video tape of Merle Travis containing performances by him throughout his career. Of course he used the thumbed F pattern as the root chord for almost every key. He also used a thumbed D pattern a lot and added the fourth finger on the fourth string. He always tried to get two correct bass notes for his alternating thumb picking style. He also used a thumbed C pattern made like an A-7 at the fifth fret. You could really just barre all the strings at the fifth fret and not sound the fifth string but he use the thumb and index finger.

I think Blind Gary Davis' great show piece "United States March" would be impossible to play if you didn't start out in a thumbed F. Come to think of it it's almost impossible to play anyway.

Still, Chet Atkins published a small instruction book in the fifties---music notation, no tab---in which "Bye Bye Blues" is played using the barred F. And of course if you're "comping chords" behind a band, you'll be using the four-string F pattern a lot.

This is a terriric thread and, along with the Quinn thread, seems to start this forum on a return path to what I imagine as its original purpose.

Thanks,

- Mark

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Apr 00 - 12:27 PM

Mark- Thanx for mentioning mis-spelling; 'twill be fixed in the upcoming Spring00 edition.

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 06 Apr 00 - 12:47 PM

Mark, I am not sure it was a terrific thread before your post, but it was after--anyway, what is the thumbed D pattern, string by string? I have a pretty good idea what you mean, but I want to be sure--

Flattop--sad but true that people need this basic guitar technique stuff--I have said it before, and I'll say it again--when you try to teach yourself to play guitar, you miss an aweful lot--

If you play guitar, and Flattop's clear, concise, and helpful post was a revelation to you, then a warning bell should sound--you need to sit down with someone whe is a good guitar teacher--not to learn some note for note of a Blind Blake tune, but to fill in the gaps of your basic technique--

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Sean Belt
Date: 06 Apr 00 - 01:10 PM

I've got small (but mighty!) hands and have never been able to comfortably use my thumb for chording. On the other hand (no pun intended, alas), after a week or so of practice many years ago, I never had problems with barre chords. I suspect it comes from being subjected to the wisdom prevalent among many St. Louis musicians in the 60's and 70's when I was just learning, that if you played an F any way other than a barre, you weren't a 'real' guitar player and weren't to be taken seriously. I guess you'd say that peer pressure forced my hand.
...Or not.

Sean

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Fortunato
Date: 06 Apr 00 - 01:42 PM

Mark Clark,

I would enjoy owning that Merle Travis tape you mention. Do you know where I could obtain a copy?

I own albums but I never saw him play, so I had to try to reproduce the style blindly. It's interesting to hear your description. Thanks.

Fortunato

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Apr 00 - 01:59 PM

"Another thing that works in certain limited places is to substitute a Dm for the F."

What works more often is a Dm7 instead of an F - make a thumby F, but lift the little and ring finger. A very pretty sounding chord, and almost always seems to fit in satisfactorily for an F, to my eaqrs anyway.

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 06 Apr 00 - 02:14 PM

M.Ted,

Okay, suppose you wanted to play an F chord up the neck. One of the fingerings I see Merle use on the video tape is to make a standard three-fingered D pattern at the fifth fret (A F# C), add the Bb (8th fret) with the fourth finger and catch a bass A on the sixth string using the thumb. As is often the case, the fifth string is not played.

Merle seemed to use this pattern quite a lot. Of course he would use a lot of seventh, ninth and diminished chords staying away from major triads as much as possible. Rick may have additional (or better) information, this is just what I have surmised watching his hands on the video tape.

Sean (et al.),

As for the pain involved in these chords... just get over it. After using them extensively for a year or two you'll either get used to the pain or learn to play through it; I forget which. If you need to play comfortably I suspect you've chosen the wrong instrument. Many years ago in a late-night bluegrass jam session, I watched the bass player stop to wipe his own blood from his strings and fingerboard, then wrap the ends of his fingers with tape so he could keep playing. Now that's determination.

Good luck,

- Mark

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 06 Apr 00 - 02:27 PM

M.Ted,

Correction!

That is, of course, (A F C). I have no explanation for my adding a sharp sign. Must have been a "senior moment." Perhaps I was absorbed by the thought that it was a D pattern. Anyway I certainly wasn't paying attention.

Feeling foolish,

- Mark

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Brendy
Date: 06 Apr 00 - 09:26 PM

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Brendy
Date: 06 Apr 00 - 09:49 PM

I hate when that happens: a whole page typed, and I hit Clear Entries instead!

Long story short:
I was going to say that I think we should be acquainted with all available ways of playing all chords. For one it is good for tecnique building, two, it keeps the mobility in the fingers and gets them more 'used' to be in the positions that are sometimes demanded of them. Look at Chet Atkins. An example of how the 'fat fingers' excuse doesn't work!!

Being economical with my fingers is what I've learned over the years. Having enough 'hand' there to do the job, and no more. But I wouldn't substitute lets say a D minor for an F. I think it sort of changes the accent, and if it doesn't 'work' when you listen to it, then the F should be put in at all costs, or versions of it.

I'm not all that against teaching yourself either, in that by doing so you learn at the same that you understand, and it is good to be a master at your own level. The more people you meet, the more you learn. The more you experiment, the more you see how it all hangs together.

One of my older brothers showed me G C and D when I was five. I could only manage G by putting my fourth finger on the top E, third fret. The bigger I got etc. Of course my brother showed me things here and there; he showed me more to figure it out myself.
He is a Mathematics teacher, and the way he explained to me was something in the way of.."It's all a series of patterns and inversions of patterns, and patterns of inv..." Know what I mean?

He's right, you know.

B.

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 12:24 AM

Fortunato,

The video is called "Merle Travis (Rare Performances 1946-1981)" and was produced by Vestapol Productions, a division of Stefan Grossman's Guitar Workshop, Inc. National distributin was by Rounder Records. My brother is a labor leader and only knew of Merle as the composer of "Dark as a Dungeon" and "Sixteen Tons." I think he ordered the video and then realized that Merle was a commercial country performer in every sense and was put off by it. So his narrow attitude toward music became my very good fortune. Too bad, I'll bet his rank and file would have loved it.

M.Ted,

Well, I was wrong again. You've no doubt realized that already. I should never try to explain guitar fingerings while at the office, miles from my guitar, with my mind on other matters. Of course there is no Bb in an F major triad. The little finger plays A on the fourth string seventh fret to create an octave with the A on the sixth string.

Another "thumbed" chord Merle used I've also seen used by Blind Gary Davis, Doc Watson and Ike Everly. It's a moveable thumbed 7th chord. It's a little tricky but well worth learning and using. To make it as a C7, the fingering is as follows---and I have a guitar this time:

C on the B string is noted by the index finger but it also lays down flat on the E string as well.
The fourth (pinky) finger notes G on the E string.
The third finger notes the flatted seventh (Bb) on the G string.
The second or middle finger notes E on the D string.
And the thumb notes both a C on the A string and a G on the bass E string.

This allows you to play all six strings if you wish although the A string is often damped and an alternating bass played on the sixth and fourth strings.

McGrath of Harlow,

Yes, a D-7 is used more often as an F substitution. You talk about lifting your little and ring fingers from the standard thumbed F pattern. Everyone works out their own technique and there really is no right or wrong way but you might want to try making the thumbed F without using your little finger at all. If you use your ring finger to note both the F on the fourth string and the C on the A string, you'll have a finger left over to do all kinds of neat things with.

- Mark

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Clifton53
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 01:04 AM

Indeed a very helpful 'effin thread! For years I couldn't play the barre version, always used the middle four strings and muted the E's. Then, and it took some years and a lot of pain, I gained enough strength in my fingers to play it properly. But old habits die hard, and I still prefer the cheat version, or the three finger jobber I guess it's an Fm7? But that's just laziness on my part, or the particular song's tempo calls for a faster switch. S'why it's hard to play in a song circle, everyone's watching and listening to your dirty little tricks.

And working the B flat a lot also builds up that strength neede to play these chords. I play a Gibson J-45, and only recently switched to a lighter string. Seems to ease the pain a bit.

Hey, it ain't never been called easy!

Clifton53

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: ddw
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 01:09 AM

McGrath, your observation that a Dm7 sounds good as a substitute for and F chord has a reason; the notes are the same, except that you throw a D note in on the open fourth string. The other notes are A (third string), C (second string) and F (first string). Neat, huh — the way the same chords change names when you change the keys you're playing them in? Same thing happens with Em7 and G. Same notes, just different bass notes.

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: GUEST,Neil Lowe
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 11:31 AM

flattop's suggestion of releasing pressure on the barre chords between beats is heard in a lot of Hank Williams' tunes.

I think I'll stick to the random chance method of discovery on my journey to guitar utopia. Suits my style.

Neil

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 11:34 AM

Lots of good advice in this thread. I began as a classical guitarist, and so I learned to barre the F chord with my first finger -- no exceptions, no excuses. But there are enough good guitarists who play the "thumb over" approach that I have to recognize it as a legitimate thing to do, my early training notwithstanding.

Ergonomics are an important, and often ignored, consideration in playing any instrument. Rick made a good point about a lot of this having to do with your wrist. Basically, if you're planning to do a first-finger barre, you need to make sure you're holding the instrument with the neck up high enough to accommodate this. This is a big part of the reason classical guitarists (who actually pay a lot of attention to body positioning) typically rest the instrument on their left thigh -- it brings the neck up, allowing your left wrist to stay relaxed, and making a first-finger barre much less work.

Conversely, if you plan to use the thumb-over approach, you need to make sure you're holding the instrument with the neck down low enough to accommodate this -- otherwise, again, you will be forced to contort your left wrist unnaturally. You will see a lot of low-slung guitars on rock and blues musicians, many of whom prefer the thumb-over approach; whether they started with the low-slung guitar to adapt to their hand positions, or vice-versa, it makes sense.

BUT, if you initially learned your hand positions from your classical guitar studies, and then started playing your electric slung low (because it looks cool, you know), you'll end up with an unnatural arch in your left wrist. This is an invitation to carpal tunnel syndrome (the voice of experience; trust me, you don't want to go there).

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Mbo
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 11:44 AM

Thanks, Whistle! I never thought about that! The body positioning DOES help a great deal. I've been doing some home recording, and found that when I tried to do fingerpicking near the mic, I kept making mistakes of every kind. I then realized that my classical guitar position would work out better, so I pulled out the old foot stand, put the steel string in classical position--and I was like having an old friend back, it felt so comfortable--no mistakes, and clear recording! I tell you, absorb techniques from ALL different styles, and it will make you a much better player! Oh course folk & rock guitarists laugh and think we're wimpy cause we sit down and have foot stands....

--Mbo

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Rob-IL
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 11:48 AM

Im not sure if this option has already been listed, but if you play a "C" shaped chord with your index finger starting on the sixth fret, you can add your pinky on the high e string, and get a really nice open sounding F (but again, this is only a five string chord, the low e has to be muted with the thumb... I haven't ever really had problems with the chord.. so good luck..

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 12:47 PM

Mbo, such a pleasure to connect with another lapsed classical guitarist! I only play a little bit of classical now -- not well enough to be considered "serious" -- but I find that there are a lot of indirect applications for the principles I learned, regardless of the style I'm playing in. At least, keeping the concepts in mind (paying attention to how your posture affects your hand position, how certain kinds of right-hand attack can have a dramatic effect on tone, etc.) can help you work through difficulties you encounter wherever the muse happens to take you.

I think your next point -- learn everything you can, from wherever you can, and it's bound to help -- is right on the money. Now if only I could perfect that Pete Townshend windmill in the middle section of Recuerdos de la Alhambra...

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Mbo
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 03:51 PM

HA HA HA HA!!! Whistle you're a riot! Windmill in Recuerdos....I'm laughing so hard tears are in my eyes!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 03:52 PM

Mark Clark,

I was with you all the way--that funny G7 is curious chord, isn't it?

I used to work with a guy who had made a paper cutout of his guitar neck that he kept in his desk, for just such situations--he eventually brought a real guitar in, which he bought but didn't want his wife to know about--

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 04:26 PM

Gary T,

You might try first finger on the 2nd fret of the fifth string and instead of barring the whole second fret, learn to isolate the joint on the ring finger so that it bends back and does a small barre on the fourth, third and second strings at the fourth fret. Mute out the first and sixth string and play the 5,4,3,2 strings.

Frank

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: GUEST,dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 05:01 PM

Fortunato- I sem to keep repeating myself, but you can get the Travis Video ay Camsco (where else?)

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 08 Apr 00 - 04:07 PM

M.Ted,

Actually, the thumbed dominant seventh chord isn't really strange at all. Follow this and you'll see.

Make a standard first position full C7 chord. By that I mean a three-fingered C mjajor chord using the little finger to note Bb on the G string and making sure your ring finger is covering both the bass strings so you could play a three note alternating bass. Never mind if you don't normally make it that way, just go along for now.
Now that we have the standard C7, we want to move the G from the bass E string to the trebble E string. In order to do that we need to move the little finger over to the trebble E string and move our ring (3rd) finger over to the G string to fill in for the missing pinkey.
Now we only have a four-string C7 chord so we fill it out by thumbing the bass strings at the third fret taking the place of the purloined 3rd finger.

You see, it's really just a standard C7 chord fingered so that it becomes mobile.

You can play with a lot of chords this way. If you learn the chord spellings, you can find a chord that sounds right wherever you are on the neck.

- Mark

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 08 Apr 00 - 04:50 PM

It's funny because of the thumb hanging over the top-that is what I meant--

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 08 Apr 00 - 05:05 PM

Sorry, I guess I'm over-explaining again.

The paper cut-out is a good idea, I'll have to give that one some thought.

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Night Owl
Date: 08 Apr 00 - 05:17 PM

Mark...puhleeze...don't apologize for "over-explaining" (don't think you did!.) Some of us REQUIRE explanations like yours and are VERY grateful!!

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 08 Apr 00 - 05:28 PM

Well then, I'm glad my post wasn't entirely wasted. (grin)

In some kinds of music---jazz especially---it's considered bad form to move very far from your current position to get the next chord; and when you're changing chords twice each measure you need a few alternate fingerings for each chord at your disposal.

- Mark

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 08 Apr 00 - 07:01 PM

Mark is correct about the jazz chords. This is called "voice leading" when one chord leads smoothly to the next as if each "voice" were being sung by a chorus. Skipping around from chord to chord in various areas of the guitar would be like a chorus singing one note in the lower register and suddenly awkwardly jumping to a note in a higher register. The ones who consider it "bad form" are the ones who have had some musical theory training. This exempts many rock and rollers as well as folkies.

Some folk players hear the voice leading without knowing it, though.

Frank

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 08 Apr 00 - 10:43 PM

The object is to move in half steps, whenever possible, and you can do this either motion in then the bass or with the motion on the top of the chord--voice leading really just refers to putting the melody note or the solo on the top of the chord--

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 10 Apr 00 - 12:03 PM

FWIT, I've been playing around with better ways to describe chord fingerings to each other and found a chord dictionary site at the University of Virginia. Here my own construction of the "funny C7" chord M.Ted and I were talking about. Not only can you see the chord but you can hear it as well.

Happy chording,

- Mark

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 10 Apr 00 - 01:09 PM

Mark,

Too bad you didn't find that before--it is always grueling for me to work through word descriptions of fingerings--this is much better!!

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 10 Apr 00 - 01:43 PM

Yes, and if we're willing to type in the fingerings we seem to have absolute control over the choice of strings and fingers. Their site may not seem to contain the fingering we want but we can construct it ourselves and still see and hear the result.

- Mark

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Apr 00 - 11:44 PM

Hi. I put up an "Eb" thread, but got carried away with my cutesy headers. Sorry 'bout that.click

Rick

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 12:32 AM

I know there are thousands if not millions of songs that can be played using just the basic F bar cord at different positions on the neck. One that I like and sounds pretty good is "Riding Down The Canyon". Key of F. Give it a try.

Cap't Bob

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Marion
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 01:01 AM

So far I haven't found a thumby F to be any easier than a barre F, but I have found that it has one major advantage that hasn't been mentioned yet.

The difficult thing about the thumby F (for me, anyway) is the high E string - it's very difficult to fret those two treble strings with one finger while reaching around for all the other notes you have to fret. I always end up muting the high E string instead of fretting it.

However, the chord doesn't sound bad with that string muted. On the other hand, when I play a barre F badly, I get buzzing, which is very objectionable.

Insofar as a muted note is a lesser evil than a buzzing sound... a badly played thumby F will sound better than a a badly played barre F.

Marion

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: RichM
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 08:25 AM

The Barre F is WAY overrated.

I know classical style players have to use it; I certainly did when I was a classical player. But in every other music, you need to find a chord shape that lets you move quickly and smoothly to and from F.
What's that? Mostly, it's the 4 string version: xx3211 (low E string to High E). And occasionally put down the 5th string at the 3rd fret to give you the C note for a fuller sounding version.

And someone suggested using 4 string jazz chords, the kind where you mute some in-between strings.

Wonderful idea; use everything you can learn from all types of music.

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 08:33 AM

The Barre F not easy to shift to and from???? In my experience, it's very easy! Even in places where you have to go from a barre F to and up-the-neck Ebmaj7, it still works. And I have small hands and only been playing 7 years!

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Jande
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 12:59 PM

Great Thread! Thanks Rick and all contributers!

It really does depend on all the variable of length of fingers, how young you were when you started learning (myself age 25), whether you took lessons or not, how much practise time you get, what song/music style you prefer, what position you hold the guitar in (eg, left or right thigh).

The only trouble I have with barre chords is that my hands/fingers get tired quickly. This indicates to me that I need to practise more. My whole lifestyle has changed recently bringing me back my desire to make music which I lost in a car accident in the early '80s. So I really need to practise more to get not only my strength back up but my callouses built up again.

What whistle said sturck a chord with me (so to speak ::grin::) I have never been able to play thumby chords. (I have small hands, and a recalcitrant pinky to boot!) But, I repositioned my guitar to my right thigh and low and behold... I could get my thumb over the string! Couldn't play it worth a darn, but hey, first things first, eh? ;`)

~ Jande

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 03:48 PM

I've never liked playing in F. So I'm now pretty fluent in transposing to D with the capo on 3.

And I can't play any chords with my thumb on the bass. I play one song which uses Am with an F bass - and I have to reposition my Am to leave my first finger free for the F bass.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 09:33 PM

RichM's opinion on the Barre F chord is a minority opinion--I've played many kinds of music in professional settings over more than thirty five years, and I can assure you that most players use that fellow a lot--I am curious to know how you'd manage to get those bass notes with your little four finger, anyway, when you play rhythm guitar, those bass notes are often more important, and the high ones get in the way of the soloist--

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: 53
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 09:46 PM

Rhythm Man and I like these threads on guitar chords.

One of the main differences in your choices of how to play the F chord is your music style, like Jande said.

The following is advise from Rhythm Man:

The way to play an F depends on the song you are playing. If you want to have an open, ringing sound (like you want in most country music)then you need open strings and you can capo in 1st fret, play in E or Capo 3rd fret, play in D or Capo 5th fret, play in C. All these are F chords.

If you barre an F or wrap the thumb, this is great for Texas swing style, blues, and up-tempo country music that calls for closed chord positions.

A good rhythm player must know when to use what position of the chord he needs.

Gotta Go.

Glenda & Bob

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: GUEST,Chris
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 07:40 PM

Wonderful chord, lousy key...

Listen to The Dubliner's 'Whisky in the jar' for max effect. Chordshape 'C' to start (sorry can't remember if it's capoed) Down to to A min, then the 'F' with the lush driving bass. Thanks Ciarnon..

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Orac
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 08:50 PM

I can't see whats difficult about the F chord. B flat is far worse.

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Marion
Date: 05 Jun 01 - 12:59 AM

Rick, in your experience, is anybody who keeps working at it (assuming the average number of fingers, and a steel string guitar) capable of learning the thumbed F chord? Or are there some individuals whose hands or guitars make it impossible?

Thanks, Marion (trying and trying and not getting anywhere)

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Marion
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 04:16 PM

Frigging F chord! I am refreshing this since I'm still not getting anywhere with learning a thumbed F, and since I'm trying to decide whether to keep at it or give up and go back to trying to play the barre chord well.

Let me just spell out what I'm trying to practice to eliminate the small possibility that I've misunderstood what a thumbed F is:

- index finger on E and B strings, first fret
- middle finger on G string, second fret
- ring finger on A string, third fret
- little finger on D string, third fret
- thumb on low E string, first fret.

The problem is the high E string - when I rotate my hand far enough round that my ring and little fingers can reach their places, my index finger lifts slightly on the high E and it ends up muted.

For what it's worth, I often try playing this with a capo on the fourth or fifth fret, with a view to lowering the action and making the horizontal stretch smaller. And I know that going up the neck makes the neck slightly wider though. Both the high and low positions seem equally impossible to me.

Willie-o is now my guitar teacher, and he thinks that my hands are too small for the thumbed F and that I should concentrate on the barre. But I haven't quite given up, for two reasons:

1. I can see the advantages of the thumbed F - easier to change between it and C and G, and the ability to get the scale notes A, D, and G by lifting fingers.

2. I keep seeing here the claim that learning this and other thumbed chords is a question of practice and wrist mobility, not finger length.

So again my basic question is - is this really a chord that anybody can learn if they keep at it? Or are there some - like maybe me - who it won't work for.

I play a folk-sized Seagull, and while my hands are a touch on the small side, I'm not a candidate for the circus or anything...

Marion

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 05:37 PM

Hi Marion. The trick (and there are a thousand tricks) is to only practice it for about a minute or two a day...but EVERYDAY. You'll learn it.....but.....you need the Barre F as well. There are things each can do that the other can not. Hang tough.

The main thing that I try to emphasise to my students is that the Thumb F is THE HARDEST THING YOU'LL EVER HAVE TO LEARN ON A GUITAR. Nothing else comes close. So when you DO master it, your sense of self-accomplishment will be immense.

One more little trick that I may or may not have mentioned in this thread. And this REALLY works.

Run your index and middle finger up and down the back of your guitar neck..to the point where you can really feel them stretching. Then do it with your middle and ring finger. tthen your ring and little finger. Once a day for about twenty seconds. Your finger span will increase noticeably within a couple of weeks. To test the results, play a four string Gmaj7. Index on the ist string second fret, middle on the second string 3rd fret, ring on the 3rd string fourth fret, pinky on the 4th string fifth fret. Should be damn hard at first. After a couple of weeks of the finger streching excercises you'll get it easily. The Thumb F shouldn't be far behind.

Rick

Subject: RE: What the 'F' is goin' on at Mudcat?
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 06:42 PM

Hate to contradict Rick, but there are harder chords to finger, such as the C fingered Eb chord on the third fret--though you can easily avoid ever having to use it--I only mention it because that nasty little sucker(complete with chord diagrams) does appear in a lot of older song books--for instance the old, black "Complete Bob Dylan" songbook--