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Only in Canada eh? Pity!

Metchosin 07 Apr 00 - 12:04 AM
Kelida 07 Apr 00 - 12:12 AM
Rick Fielding 07 Apr 00 - 12:13 AM
GUEST,I hope that the poor shop owner 07 Apr 00 - 08:05 AM
GUEST,aldus 07 Apr 00 - 08:20 AM
Allan C. 07 Apr 00 - 08:27 AM
Peter T. 07 Apr 00 - 08:27 AM
Mooh 07 Apr 00 - 08:41 AM
Midchuck 07 Apr 00 - 09:11 AM
GUEST,Rana 07 Apr 00 - 10:17 AM
Allan C. 07 Apr 00 - 10:25 AM
catspaw49 07 Apr 00 - 10:36 AM
GUEST,Sophocleese 07 Apr 00 - 10:54 AM
Mooh 07 Apr 00 - 11:27 AM
catspaw49 07 Apr 00 - 11:43 AM
GUEST,Rana 07 Apr 00 - 12:20 PM
Eluned 07 Apr 00 - 12:36 PM
Mooh 07 Apr 00 - 01:11 PM
Allan C. 07 Apr 00 - 01:11 PM
MMario 07 Apr 00 - 01:23 PM
Clinton Hammond2 07 Apr 00 - 01:59 PM
Metchosin 07 Apr 00 - 02:16 PM
MMario 07 Apr 00 - 02:18 PM
MMario 07 Apr 00 - 02:40 PM
Margo 07 Apr 00 - 02:50 PM
Metchosin 07 Apr 00 - 02:51 PM
kendall 07 Apr 00 - 02:51 PM
MMario 07 Apr 00 - 03:03 PM
richardw 07 Apr 00 - 08:22 PM
Metchosin 07 Apr 00 - 09:43 PM
Eluned 07 Apr 00 - 11:22 PM
MMario 07 Apr 00 - 11:25 PM
Metchosin 08 Apr 00 - 03:40 AM
kendall 08 Apr 00 - 12:45 PM
Mooh 08 Apr 00 - 01:32 PM
Bill D 08 Apr 00 - 02:32 PM
pastorpest 09 Apr 00 - 01:01 PM
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Subject: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: Metchosin
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 12:04 AM

In the news today, a Canadian boutique owner has come under SOCAN's gun, for playing Canadian music over her store sound system.

The store owner thought she was promoting Canadian culture in her two small stores in Toronto and Newfoundland, as she exclusively handles Canadian designed clothing, but apparently you can't do that to the strains of Loreena McKennitt, Great Big Sea and others less well known.

She's had to retire her stack of Canadian CD's for American ones, in order to comply, as the tariff to Socan was beyond her means.

My husband's comment to SOCAN's tactics was "Nobody move or I'll cut off my dick with these shears!"


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: Kelida
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 12:12 AM

I would take those shears away quickly--that sounds a little dangerous.


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 12:13 AM

Read it Met. Sad isn't it? I know where they're comin' from (I'm a member) but they have no clue when to make exceptions.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: GUEST,I hope that the poor shop owner
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 08:05 AM


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: GUEST,aldus
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 08:20 AM

sorry about the above, started in the wrong place. I was going to say that it is a good thing the shop wasn't in Quebec...Loreena sings in English...that must be a no-no there...what a strange set of rules Canada has regarding this sort of thing. I understand the position of the artists, however, they must be the only people on the planet who curb free publicity. There is a small shop in this city that plays the music of local artists......a pair of young women who play beautiful celtic music have sold hundred of cds as a result of this merchants desire to support local musicians........socan would stop this. I have a number of cds I purchased after having heard them in shops who play local music, is this not a good thing. Most Cdn radio stations, CBC is the exception, cater to the mass market and give little or no time to local musicians... I think socan is shooting itself in the foot and the rules need to change. Artists have to realize that free publicity is hard to come by and stop prosecuting those who provide it.


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: Allan C.
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 08:27 AM

Sorry to be so ignorant of the subjet here. It sounds interesting; I haven't a clue what you guys are talking about. What is SOCAN and why/how can anyone dictate what kind of music you play ANYWHERE?


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: Peter T.
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 08:27 AM

I think it is important that these stores hire musicians to play while people are buying their clothes or buying groceries. This would improve life. The big problem would be stuffing them into elevators, but I am sure it could be worked out. Lastly, instead of those Walkman things, musicians should be hired on an individual basis to roller-blade beside strollers, joggers, and others as they do their workouts. yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: Mooh
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 08:41 AM

Now are we sure this isn't a delayed April Fools stunt?

If this ever happened to me I'd rap myself in the Canadian flag and defy the socan bastards in the courts, and in the streets. Talk about a new folk hero! The court of public opinion would side with the business owner on this one for sure. How about continuous renditions of O Canada, too much Canadian content? The fascist music police are at it again!

Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: Midchuck
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 09:11 AM

At least there's only the one of them. Down here we have ASCAP and BMI competing to see who can be the biggest nuisance.

I wouldn't mind if they didn't demand royalties for live play in clubs, etc., then base the payout entirely on radio play - and then only on the stations they monitor. So the folky songwriters who don't get pop station radio play get squat.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: GUEST,Rana
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 10:17 AM

Actually, it isn't only in Canada where common sense and good judgement seems to be lacking on the part of beaurocrats. There was a thread on another folk list serverer a couple of years ago which mentioned the US equivalent of SOCAN was trying to get fees for campfire singarounds at a girl guides event.

I suppose they see this as a commercial business broadcasting the songs and apply the same rules as for a bar. I suppose record stores would also have to pay.

I can see that wording of the legislation could be difficult - much like the squeegy-kid legislation (which I felt was draconian) in Ontario will also affect charities and cxar wash events (and presumably us morris dancers when we bag). But loose interpretation should be allowed with the officials

Rana


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: Allan C.
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 10:25 AM

So, is anyone going to let a po' ignan't 'Merican know what it is you are talking about?


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 10:36 AM

Uh....like, I'm with Allan here. Anybody like to explain this to us? Allan and I may be the only "'Mericans" who DON'T know what the hell this is about, but we're both interested........"ignernt but innersted." (Well Cletus probably doesn't know either, but that's to be expected)

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: GUEST,Sophocleese
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 10:54 AM

Catspaw and Allan C. If I got it right this might help you understand. SOCAN


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: Mooh
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 11:27 AM

Hi again,

I just came back from running some errands in my humble little compact car which btw holds tons of gear for gigs with the back seats folded down...and anyway, I had my window open and the tape deck playing. What's next, the socan police pulling me over for broadcasting and not giving them their due?

I'm only partly sarcastic.

Sorry to all the uninitiated Mudcatters for not explaining socan, but the above post sends you to their site I think.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 11:43 AM

Yeah it does Mooh........and I think you need to keep your windows closed.

After reading their site, I see the point, but seems to me this bunch is way overboard! Great Zot!!! Somewhere along the line they seem to have gotten carried away with their mission. Has this practice gotten progressively worse or did they actually start out this way? Typical of any bureaucratic set-up, they obviously have a rule for everything and I'm sure they have revisions to the revisions as their size has increased.

It seems to be the natural law of humankind. I once suggested a "Murphy's Law" thing exists around this type of stuff..........

CATSPAW'S LAW: "The easiest thing to do is to take a simple thing and make it difficult."

I'm convinced that if I gave someone a job of pushing a button once every minute for one hour a day, within 6 months there would be a two inch manual of button pushing rules and statutes. Why we are forced to do this is beyond me. I know that situations always come up, but do we have to write rules and revisions every time? A more relaxed approach to governing things would be refreshing wouldn't it?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: GUEST,Rana
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 12:20 PM

SOCAN is the agency that monitors and collects royalty fees for music which is performed either live and recorded be it radio, tv, club, concert, bar etc. We have to pay a SOCAN fee (which is a % based on gate) for the folk club I'm involved with. Basically, I suppose, and others could correct me, it is a like a licencing agency. For the life of me, I can't remember the US equivalent - that may explain this to all. The artist, songwriter etc should then eventually receive a cheque from the agency.

Trust this helps.

Rana


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: Eluned
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 12:36 PM

So, let me get this right. Socan is a kind of guild for performing musicians, in Canada. Whether you agree to it or not, and even if you're not canadian (I read their rules), anything broadcast or played by any commercial enterprise in Canada is subject to a kind of tax, which will then supposedly be paid to you. You can't just let someone, or ask someone to, broadcast or play your music, they'll fine the business anyway???!!! How do you advertise then???!!! Don't they know how many people have gone out and bought tapes and CD's because they 'heard it somewhere and liked it'??!! Geez, and I thought American Beaurocracy had it bad!! (No crit on Canadians, I just thought we were worse!)


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: Mooh
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 01:11 PM

Yeah well, Eluned, Big Brother has relatives elsewhere...My blood isn't boiling as bad as it was earlier today over this issue, but as much as I love music, I love to colour (live) outside the lines too. Thanks for listening...Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: Allan C.
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 01:11 PM

Thanks for the enlightenment. Now, if we could only shine the beacon of enlightenment into the nether regions where these copyright police seem to dwell, (and get their rules of play) maybe good sense will reign.

I have to agree with 'Spaw. It appears to be that an ostensibly good idea has gone bad due to overregulation of the regulations.


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: MMario
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 01:23 PM

For those in the US...why the surprise? ASCAP and BMI have been doing this for years and years....and they include playing ANY music if store is over a certain square footage, if there are more then four speakers, etc, etc. etc....


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 01:59 PM

Shhhhh!...

Don't tell SOCAN, but 1)my show is mostly covers of good Canadian folk music... and 2) the pubs I play in play lots of Canadian music while I'm on break...

Screw SOCAN!

We're doing each other a service by playing each others songs.. and that lesson was taught to bme by James Keelaghan when I asked him how he felt aobut people covering his music.. he was flattered...

SOCAN can bite my bum!


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: Metchosin
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 02:16 PM

Sorry I din't explain what SOCAN was people, I haven't been able to get back online since last night. Thanks for the link Sophocleese.

MMario, it would seem to me that the regulations you defined are a least a bit more reasonable. I have no idea how large a store this is, but it didn't sound like a major retailor from the interview that was broadcast.

It did sound a bit like going after a gnat with a sledge hammer or perhaps a better analogy might be, a humming bird, as I do believe that Canadian musicians need the exposure in their own country.

Apparently the shop owner is requesting that SOCAN give her a list of other shops, from whom they have demanded fees, to determine if she is the only retailer in the area that has been singled out. She was doing that with some trepidation, as she felt that other owner's would not be pleased that their practices, regarding in-store music, might come to light.


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: MMario
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 02:18 PM

oh - believe me, the footage they have is miniscule.....


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: MMario
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 02:40 PM

I just checked, per ASCAP you need to pay fees for any PUBLIC PERFORMANCE - which they define as "a performance anyplace people gather" with the following exceptions - small family gathering;face to face instruction at a non-profit organization; worship services AS LONG AS NOT PIPED OR BROADCAST TO ANOTHER ROOM OR BUILDING.

"Performance" they define as live; TV or Radio if more then 1) integral speaker set or screens (and only if in 1 room); OR the playing of tapes, CD's, LP's, etc.....

Using music for "hold" on your phone entitles ASCAP to a fee, according to them....


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: Margo
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 02:50 PM

That was my question: What constitutes a "broadcast". Playing the music in a store is considered a broadcast? I went to the SOCAN site and found this very interesting bit from their FAQ's:

"Q: I've heard my song on the radio. Is my royalty cheque in the mail? A: It would be impossible to log every radio station in Canada 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. The cost of administration alone would leave little money for distribution to members. As a result, all societies in North American employ some form of a "sampling" system for radio performances. If your music was played on a station not being sampled at that particular time, and if it does not turn up on other sampled logs, no radio royalty will be paid. We cannot accept data that is from outside our system."

So they enforce the royalties only if they have monitored the station. Sounds like a big loophole to me. Ah well, I am ignorant of such things, but it seems funny to me. Margo


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: Metchosin
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 02:51 PM

Aha! no difference in the regulations Stateside. Guess she should shelve her U.S. CD's too.


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: kendall
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 02:51 PM

I'm doing a benefit for the homeless tomorrow night, and, I will be doing copyrighted material. Now, if Utah Phillips or Tom Paxton minds, I'd be glad to send them a royalty.


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: MMario
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 03:03 PM

I don't think ANYONE would truly mind sending royalties to the copyright holders, under reasonable conditions. ASCAP brags that their overhead fees are "only" 18%, and freely admit that their payouts are baised.


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: richardw
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 08:22 PM

I know of a small restaurant in BC that was playing Canadian music and was told they had to pay $500 a year or stop--guess what?-- they stopped.

Also there was once a circuit of house concerts in the interior of BC--three venues. They often paid the whole door to the performers but when they could they took something for expenses such as coffee, rentals etc. SOCAN said, pay a licensing fee or else--[this would also provide a paper trail for revenue Canda who would want records kept, could lead to the fire marshall attending and a business license etc.] ---guess what? they stopped, after providing 40 x 3 concerts for travelling musicians.

The major complaint about SOCAN is that fees do not trickly down, but only go to the top performers.

Where are those shears?

richard


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: Metchosin
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 09:43 PM

If that is the law, I would assume that every pub, restaurant and store in Canada, if it has a sound system, must pay royalties to SOCAN for playing CD's and tapes.(and the U.S for that matter) Jeez they must be raking in the dough!

I assume that businesses wouldn't have to pay SOCAN and others for playing radio stations over their sound systems, as the royalties have already been paid by the radio stations or is SOCAN collecting twice in this circumstance?

Gee, maybe I should report my Dentist to SOCAN, his taste in radio stations is lousy, I might be able to force him to turn it off.


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: Eluned
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 11:22 PM

Richardw, I think you have it in a nutshell. The "trickle-down theory" is only so much BS. A local restaurant here in Charlotte once had a water-sculpture that was labeled "Reagan's Trickle-down Policy". The top cups were over-flowing with water, but with each descending cup the flow became less and less. The penultimate one got the occasional drop. The bottom one got none.
Guilds were traditionally the rich man's enforcement agencies.
Looks like the tradition still goes on.


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: MMario
Date: 07 Apr 00 - 11:25 PM

Metchosin - by the letter of the law, yes, it is the law....


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: Metchosin
Date: 08 Apr 00 - 03:40 AM

Does anyone know if SOCAN collects twice on in-store radio broadcasts?


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: kendall
Date: 08 Apr 00 - 12:45 PM

What ever happened to "Of the people, by the people and FOR the people? is that a crock of s..t like that sign over the door of the Supreme Court that says.."Equal justice under the law?"


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: Mooh
Date: 08 Apr 00 - 01:32 PM

Kendall,

I illustrated this once to my kids by using the dog of the house and saying "Dogs of the world unite, rise up and overthrow your masters..."

Some are more equal than others...

Some of us convince ourselves that being underdogs is a more honourable and righteous place in society...

Others of us would rather there not be a society if society is what it is...call it something else if it refuses to be societal...

Socan is not a society, no matter what it professes.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Apr 00 - 02:32 PM

ASCAP & SOCAN is mostly job security for their own personel...I doubt seriously that musicians are a lot better off WITH then than they would be WITHOUT them


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Subject: RE: Only in Canada eh? Pity!
From: pastorpest
Date: 09 Apr 00 - 01:01 PM

We are on to important issues here. I know small business people who are committed to folk and independent artists who play CDs in their stores and work places. Now I am sure not going to name them! How do we improve the system? How do we make it possible for supporters of independent artists to play the music and let people know about it and at the same time respect the creations of the artists and see to it that they are paid for what they do? Our folk club at open mikes plays the CDs, before, after and at breaks, of artists who are doing up coming concerts. Some how we should be able to list the situations for this one up to and including the small shop keepers committed to the cause for exemption from fees, especially when those business people are selling tickets for the club concerts as a favour.


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