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Lyr Req: The Ratcatcher's Daughter

In Mudcat MIDIs:
The Ratcatcher's Daughter


scouse 09 Apr 00 - 04:56 AM
Ed Pellow 09 Apr 00 - 06:10 AM
GUEST 09 Apr 00 - 12:24 PM
GUEST,Ed Pellow 10 Apr 00 - 07:00 AM
GUEST,Bruce O. 10 Apr 00 - 01:10 PM
Ed Pellow 10 Apr 00 - 05:10 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 10 Apr 00 - 05:35 PM
Ed Pellow 10 Apr 00 - 06:15 PM
Liz the Squeak 10 Apr 00 - 06:20 PM
Ed Pellow 10 Apr 00 - 06:41 PM
GUEST,Murray on Saltspring 10 Apr 00 - 09:06 PM
Uncle_DaveO 11 Apr 00 - 02:34 PM
Steve Parkes 12 Apr 00 - 03:28 AM
scouse 12 Apr 00 - 03:21 PM
Dave Bryant 12 Apr 02 - 06:22 AM
GUEST,shazam 12 Apr 02 - 07:30 AM
Joe Offer 11 Jan 03 - 03:30 PM
Uncle_DaveO 11 Jan 03 - 04:23 PM
Compton 11 Jan 03 - 07:39 PM
Cluin 11 Jan 03 - 07:53 PM
GUEST 11 Jan 03 - 07:55 PM
Jim Dixon 08 Feb 03 - 03:25 PM
GUEST,MCP 08 Feb 03 - 05:23 PM
Jim Dixon 08 Feb 03 - 05:49 PM
Steve Parkes 10 Feb 03 - 07:08 AM
Steve Parkes 10 Feb 03 - 07:09 AM
Schantieman 10 Feb 03 - 07:40 AM
Deckman 11 Feb 03 - 06:47 AM
Steve Parkes 11 Feb 03 - 07:38 AM
GUEST,Peter Reynolds 11 Feb 03 - 10:38 AM
Steve Parkes 11 Feb 03 - 11:20 AM
Schantieman 12 Feb 03 - 09:31 AM
Steve Parkes 12 Feb 03 - 10:28 AM
Schantieman 13 Feb 03 - 03:53 AM
Steve Parkes 13 Feb 03 - 05:12 AM
Schantieman 13 Feb 03 - 06:29 AM
GUEST,David Perry 15 Dec 05 - 08:00 PM
Jim Dixon 18 Dec 05 - 10:35 PM
Billy Weeks 21 Dec 05 - 04:19 PM
Billy Weeks 21 Dec 05 - 04:21 PM
MMario 21 Dec 05 - 04:23 PM
GUEST,pavane 22 Dec 05 - 07:35 AM
GUEST,Robin 'Slim' Gray 30 Apr 06 - 11:06 AM
Leadfingers 30 Apr 06 - 11:33 AM
GUEST 10 Sep 06 - 03:02 AM
GUEST,oigle 26 Dec 07 - 05:21 AM
GUEST,Owen The Nutter 16 Apr 09 - 06:22 AM
Jim Dixon 17 Apr 09 - 02:16 PM
GUEST,MadauntieCat 09 Apr 10 - 05:12 AM
John MacKenzie 09 Apr 10 - 05:19 AM
GUEST,Sheet Music collectibles..Barbara Hospel 14 Sep 11 - 10:49 PM
Stilly River Sage 15 Sep 11 - 12:18 AM
Steve Parkes 15 Sep 11 - 09:16 AM
GUEST 14 Mar 14 - 10:14 AM
GUEST,Litto 14 Mar 14 - 01:56 PM
thnidu 23 May 18 - 12:36 AM
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Subject: Ratcatchers Daughter
From: scouse
Date: 09 Apr 00 - 04:56 AM

I used to sing this song in the 70's. It's I surpose a London street song,I think it was also song by a ??John Forman. If I'm right can any one tell if Forman is still around and help with the Lyrics. Thanks


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE RATCATCHER'S DAUGHTER^^
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 09 Apr 00 - 06:10 AM

The Ratcatcher's Daughter

Not long ago, in Westminster
There lived a ratcatcher's daughter
But she didn't quite live in Westminster
Cos she lived t'other side of the water
Her father caught rats, and she sold sprats
All around and about that quarter
And the gentle folks all took a fair vouch
For the pretty little ratcatcher's daughter

Do dul dee
Do dul dum
Dye dum do dul da

Now rich and poor, both far and near
In matrimony, sought her
But at friends and foes, she turned up her nose
Did the pretty little ratcatcher's daughter
But there was a man, sold lily white sand
In cupid's net that brought her
And right over head and heels in love
Went the pretty little ratcatcher's daughter

Do dul dee
Do dul dum
Dye dum do dul da

To ratcatcher's daughter, he ran in and said
He couldn't tell what he was after
So instead of crying "do you want any sand?"
He cried, "do you want any ratcatcher's daughter?"
His donkey cocked his ears and laughed
And he couldn't think what he was after
When he heard his lily white sandman cry
"Do you want any ratcatcher's daughter?"

Do dul dee
Do dul dum
Dye dum do dul da

They both agreed to married be
Upon next Easter Sunday
But ratcatcher's daughter, she had a dream
That she wouldn't be alive on Monday
She went once more to buy some sprats
And she tumbled into the water
And down to the bottom all covered in mud
Went the pretty little ratcatcher's daughter

Do dul dee
Do dul dum
Dye dum do dul da^^

A tragic ditty telling of love between a seller of sprats and a vendor of white sand (used for cleaning knives, lining bird cages, and other purposes). The lyrics are by a clergyman, the Rev. E. Bradley, and the song was first performed by the popular singer Sam Cowell. In 'Out of Season' Charles Dickens notices the sheet music for the Ratcatcher's Daughter in a music shop 'having every polka with a coloured frontispiece that ever was published'. The original is in cockney dialect.

You can here a real audio of the song here

I'm sure that there should be a couple more verses, maybe someone else can help.

Ed


Click to play


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatchers Daughter
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 00 - 12:24 PM

Elsa Lancaster sang it on a phono record I have.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatchers Daughter
From: GUEST,Ed Pellow
Date: 10 Apr 00 - 07:00 AM

The words I've supplied here seem unfinished to me. Is there a final verse or two that I'm missing?

Thanks

Ed


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatchers Daughter
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 10 Apr 00 - 01:10 PM

There are 9 verses (8 lines each) and a little spoken dialogue in a copy of it on a 19th song sheet photocopyed in Leslie Shepard's 'The Broadside Ballad', p. 152, 1962.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatchers Daughter
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 10 Apr 00 - 05:10 PM

Bruce O,

Would be most grateful if you could provide the extra verses here.

Thanks

Ed


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatchers Daughter
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 10 Apr 00 - 05:35 PM

It's in the Levy sheet music collection (Mudcat's Links)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatchers Daughter
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 10 Apr 00 - 06:15 PM

Bruce O,

Many thanks for that - I knew of the Levy collection, but had never explored it much before. What a splendid resource!

Thank you.

For Scouse, if he or she still wants to find the rest of the lyrics, click here: THE RATCATCHER'S DAUGHTER at The Lester S. Levy Collection of Sheet Music.

Ed


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatchers Daughter
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 10 Apr 00 - 06:20 PM

There is an excellent version on one of the CD's by a UK group called Paescod (Peascod - means pea pod) although it is quite difficult to get hold of. Can't remember the name, the CD's are all downstairs, but I will have a look and post tomorrow if you'd like.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatchers Daughter
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 10 Apr 00 - 06:41 PM

Thanks Liz,

would appreciate that

apologies that my 'link' above doesn't work

Ed


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE RATCATCHER'S DAUGHTER
From: GUEST,Murray on Saltspring
Date: 10 Apr 00 - 09:06 PM

As I remember it, there is one more verse:

Now when Lily White Sands he heard the news,
Both his eyes ran down with water;
Says he, "In love I'll constant prove,
Blow me if I live long after."
So he cut his throat with a piece of glass,
And he stabbed his donkey after;
So the donkey and Lily White Sands both died,
For love of the rat-catcher's daughter.
Deedle dum etc.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE RATCATCHER'S DAUGHTER
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Apr 00 - 02:34 PM

Richard Dyer-Bennett's version ends similarly to that last one, as follows:

When Lily White Sands did hear this news
Both his eyes poured down with water.
Said he, "In love I'll constant prove,
And I'm blowed (blood?) if I live long after!"

So he cut his throat with a square of glass
And he stabbed his donkey after.
There was an end of poor Lily White Sand
And his donkey and the ratcatcher's daughter!

Doodle dye, Doodle Dee
Dah Dum Doodle Dum.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE RATCATCHER'S DAUGHTER
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 03:28 AM

Penultimate verse (with the worst Latin pun I've come across in a long while):

The verdict was as too much wet this poor young woman died on,
'Cause she made a great hole in the River Thames, what the penny steamers ride on.
'Twas plain it were an accident, not nothing like self-slaughter,
So not guiltee of fell in the sea [felon de se!] theybrought in the Ratcatcer's Daughter.

Great song, I've been singing it for years; I've even got sheet music for it somewhere. John For[e?]man used to do the 'donkey' line in the last verse like this:
... and stabbed 'is donkey arter [spoken:]Poor ole Arter!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatchers Daughter
From: scouse
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 03:21 PM

Thanks to all you Mudcatters out there for the invaluable help.I well remember John forman, does anyone know what ever happened to him?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatchers Daughter
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 12 Apr 02 - 06:22 AM

John Foreman (The Broadsheet King) is still alive and well and living in the Kentish Town area of London. He sometimes turns up at SHARP'S folk club (Tuesdays at Cecil Sharp House, 2 Regents Park Rd. - nearest tube Cammden Town).

If anyone does want to contact him, PM me and I'll let you have a phone number.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatchers Daughter
From: GUEST,shazam
Date: 12 Apr 02 - 07:30 AM

Hey Liz the Sqeak-look what I found;-http://www.malverns.demon.co.uk/paescod/fible/.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatchers Daughter
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 03:30 PM

This thread it too good to be missed. Looks like we could find more information on this song and get a transcription of the tune before it's harvested for the Digital Tradition.
Refresh!
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatchers Daughter
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 04:23 PM

I can record it on the computer and send a WAV to you, Joe, if that will help.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatchers Daughter
From: Compton
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:39 PM

Scouse,
Have a look at the stuff connected to "Marr-i-ed to a merm-i-ed of about a week ago. We spoke of John Foreman "The Broadsheet King" on that thread.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatchers Daughter
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:53 PM

She was only the ratcatcher's daughter...

But it was her pussy that won reknown.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatchers Daughter
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:55 PM

Dave, there's alredy an audio file above if you click on Ed Pellow's link


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE RAT-CATCHERS DAUGHTER^^
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 03:25 PM

A broadside at the Library of Congress has this text:

The rat-catchers daughter. H. De Marsan Publisher, 60 Chatham Street, N. Y. [n. d.]

THE RAT-CATCHERS DAUGHTER.

Sung by John Winans, of the Bowery Theatre, With Tremendous Applause.

Not long ago in Vestminster there lived a rat-catcher's daughter,
And yet she didn't live in Vestminster, 'cause she loved 'tother side of the water,
Her father caught rats--and she sold sprats all about and around that quarter,
And the gentle folks all took off their hats to the putty little Rat-catcher daughter.

CHORUS-- Doodle dee:
Doodle dum;
Di dum doodle da.

Now, rich and poor, both far and near, in matrimony sought her:
But at friends and foes turn'd up her nose, did the putty little Rat-catcher's daughter.
For there was a man, sold Lilly Vite sand, in Cupid's net had caught her,
And right over head and ears in love vent the putty little Rat-catcher's daughter,

Now lily vite sand ran in her 'ead, as she went along Strand, oh.
She forgot as she'd got sprats on her 'ead, and crid, D'ye you want any Lilly vite sand, Oh:
The folks amaz'd all thought her craz'd, as she went along the strand, Oh.
To see a gal vith sprats on her 'ead, cry, "D'ye vant any lily vite sand, Oh."

Now Rat-catcher's daughter so ran in his 'ead, he couldn't tell vat he vas arter
So, instead of crying, 'D'ye vant any sand,' he cried, 'D'ye vant any Rat catchers, daughter.'
His donkey cock'd his ears and laughed, and couldn't think vat he vas arter
Ven he heard his lady vite sandman cry, 'D'ye vant any Rat-catcher's daughter.'

They both agreed to married be upon next Easter Sunday,
But Rat-catcher's daughter, she had a dream, that she wouldn't be alive on Monday.
She vent vonce more to buy some sprats, and she tumbled into the water,
And down to the bettom, all kiver'd with mud, vent the putty little Rat catcher's daughter.

Ven Lily vite Sand 'e 'eard the news, his eyes ran down vith vater,
Said 'e, 'In love I'll constant prove, and--blow me if I'll live long arter.'
So he cut 'Is throat with a pane of glass, and stabb'd is donkey arter.
So 'ere is an end of Lily, vite Sand, donkey, and the Rat-catcher's daughter^^

Click to play


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatchers Daughter
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 05:23 PM

There are at least 22 responses at The Bodleian Broadside Collection. (The search there is as unpredictable as the Forum search, but rat on title/first line... gets these).

Mick


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE RATCATCHER'S DAUGHTER^^
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 05:49 PM

Here are the lyrics I transcribed from the sheet music at the Levy site.

THE RATCATCHER'S DAUGHTER
As Sung by Harry Lehr
Published by S. T. Gordon, 538 Broadway, New York, [n.d.]
With the Original Extra Verses and the Ghost Story as Encore Verses and the Genuine Original Melody

Not long ago, in Vestminster,
There liv'd a ratcatcher's daughter,
But she didn't quite live in Vestminster,
Cause she liv'd t'other side of the vater.
Her father caught rats, and she sold sprats,
All round and about that quarter;
And the gentlefolks all took off their hats
To the putty little ratcatcher's daughter!
    Doodle dee! Doodle dum! Di dum doodle da!

She vore no 'at upon 'er 'ead,
No cap nor dandy bonnet.
The 'air of 'er 'ead all hung down 'er back
Like a bunch of carrots upon it.
Ven she cried "Sprats!" in Vestminster,
She 'ad such a sweet loud voice, sir,
You could hear her all down Parliament Street
As far as Charing Cross, sir.
    Doodle dee! Doodle dum! Di dum doodle da!

Now, rich and poor, both far and near,
In matrimony sought her;
But at friends and foes she turn'd up her nose,
Did the putty little ratcatcher's daughter.
For there was a man, sold lily vite sand,
In Cupid's net had caught her;
And right over head and ears in love
Vent the putty little ratcatcher's daughter!
    Doodle dee, &c.

Now lily vite sand so ran in her head
As she vent along the Strand, oh!
She forgot as she'd got sprats on her head
And cried, "D'ye vant any lilly vite sand, oh!"
The folks amaz'd all thought her craz'd,
As she vent along the Strand, oh!
To see a gal vith sprats on her 'ead
Cry, "D'ye vant any lily vite sand, oh!"
    Doodle dee, &c.

Now ratcatcher's daughter so ran in his 'ead
He couldn't tell vat he vas arter,
So, instead of crying, "D'ye vant any sand?"
He cried, "D'ye vant any ratcatcher's darter?"
His donkey cock'd his ears and laughed,
And couldn't think vat he vas arter,
Ven he heard his lily vite sandman cry,
"D'ye vant any ratcatcher's darter?"
    Doodle dee, &c.

They both agree to married be
Upon next Easter Sunday,
But ratcatcher's daughter she had a dream
That she wouldn't be alive on Monday.
She vent vunce more to buy some sprats,
And she tumbled into the vater,
And down to the bottom, all kivered up with sand,
Vent the putty little ratcatcher's daughter!
    *Doodle dee, &c.

*Considering the state of the Thames at the present moment, what must she have swallowed?
(The spoken passages may be used or not, at the option of the Vocalist.)

Ven Lily vite Sand 'e 'eard the news,
His eyes ran down vith vater.
Said 'e, "In love I'll constant prove;
And blow me if I'll live long arter!"
So he cut 'is throat vith a pane of glass
And stabb'd 'is donkey arter!
So 'ere is an end of Lily-vite Sand,
Donkey, and the ratcatcher's daughter!
    Doodle dee, &c.

The neighbours all, both great and small,
They flocked unto 'er buryin'
And vept that a gal who'd cried out "Sprats!"
Should be dead as any herrein.
The coroner's inquest on her sot,
At the sign of the Jack i' the Vater,
To find what made life's sand run out
Of the putty little ratcatcher's daughter!
    Doodle dee, &c.

The verdict was that too much vet
This poor young voman died on;
For she made an 'ole in the Riviere Thames,
Vot the penny steamers ride on!
'Twas a haccident, they all agreed,
And nuffink like self-slaughter;
So not guiltee 'e fell in the sea,
They brought in the ratcatcher's daughter!
    *Doodle dee, &c.

(Spoken: *Well, ladies and gentlemen -- arter the two bodies was resusticated -- they buried them both in one seminary -- and the epigram which they writ upon the tomb-stone went as follows -- Doodle dee, &c.)

ENCORE VERSES
OR
THE GHOST STORY

I know full well you've all heard tell
Of the ratcatcher's putty little darter,
Who doesn't now live any vare,
But lies underneath the vater;
Now it is said, ven vunce ve're dead,
Ve never comes back arter,
But list to me, and you shall hear
About the ghost of the Ratcatcher's Darter.
    Doodle dee, &c.

'Neath London Bridge on Sunday night,
In the middle of November,
At twelve o'clock, up comes the sprite
Of a maiden young and tender;
And why in that month of the year,
If you wishes to know the reason,
'Tis 'cos as how she's loth to appear
Ven sprats is not in season.
    Doodle dee, &c.

Then to meet her floating down the stream
Sails the sandman's ghost in a basket
And vy it travels 'at ere vay --
If you vant to know I'll ask it.
But worser still, your blood to chill,
The donkey's ghost comes arter;
They all meet under the centre arch,
Jist half vay across the vater.
    (While a chorus of invisible sprats sings the strain of...)
    Doodle dee, &c.

Said she, "Old Thames is a dirty dog,
And smells like sprats vot's stinking.
The old boy takes so many drains
All sorts of stuff he's drinking;
Off I shall hop. Here I can't stop,
In the vater Cockneys swizzle.
Let's have a dance upon the heath
Till daylight makes us mizzle!
    Doodle dee, &c.

And she flew till she came to a lonely heath
Where deadly nightshade groweth.
'Tis only with nightshade ghosts may stay
And start when first cock croweth.
There stood Sand, and the Ass, and the werry piece of glass
Vot did the double murder.
They tried to embrace, but it didn't take place;
They could speak, but could not go furder.
    Doodle dee, &c.

They were lost in a mist; she longed to be kiss'd
His eyes were getting foggy;
She being a sperit with vater long mix'd,
No vonder she felt groggy.
Now the first cock crew, the sound they knew,
They both began to shiver
While he and the ass sunk down in sand,
She slid back to the river.
    Doodle dee, &c.^^

Click to play


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatchers Daughter
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 07:08 AM

"Fell in the sea" is, in case you hadn't spotted it, an excruciating pn on "felo de se", i.e. suicide.

Steve


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatchers Daughter
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 07:09 AM

... an excruciating pun!!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatchers Daughter
From: Schantieman
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 07:40 AM

I've sung this song for years and never come across anyone else who knew it. Now it seems we all do!!

I've only ever done five verses (quite long enough for performance purposes!) but with the addition of 'street cries' at the end of each chorus. I got these (and indeed the whole song) from the singing of (as they say) John Foreman, probably when I was a student in about 1978.

The chorus to the first three verses therefore goes:
Doodle-dee doodle-dum,
Ri-dum-doodle-ay
Sprats! (pronounced "Sper-aaaaats!")

...and then after Mr Lillywhite Sand is introduced his cry is added: "Do yer want' any lillywhite sand?" (going down a fifth (I think) on the last word). It starts about halfway through 'sprats'.

The gentlemen are invited to sing this while the ladies carry on with their sprats.   The overall effect is quite, er, interesting!

Stop me and ask me to sing it (if you must!).

;-)

Steve


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: Deckman
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 06:47 AM


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 07:38 AM

I went for years without realising there were two or three more verses than the ones I'd learned. But I can't be bothered learning the ones about "D'you want any ratcatcher's darter?". I always sing "Sper-raaa-haats!!!", in a voice which, if it can't be heard all down Parliament Street, is certainly audible half-way up Stony High Street. And (vich I pinched off John Foreman) after "...and he stabbed his donkey arter" I say "poor old Arter!" Just think, in the old days any of us could have survived on just this one song, doing the Halls!

I was looking through some back copies of the Black Country Bugle last night and found a piece on Lower Gornall -- famed for its donkeys, as they say on the cover of Woman's Weekly -- with a photo of some workmen moving sand "of the 'lilly-white' variety", said the caption, "in other words, salt". Now I know LG is also famed for its silver sand, but I never heard salt called l-w sand. Any observations? I'll dig out the article tonight and post it here if it's interesting.

Steve


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: GUEST,Peter Reynolds
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 10:38 AM

I remember Cosmotheka singing this in their very very early days as a duo at Redditch Folk Club - might have been the first they ever did together in public. 150 in the place for a singer's night - those were the days.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 11:20 AM

I've never heard Cosmotheka do it: they musthave dropped it very early on. We gave them one of their first gigs at the Shantasea Centre in Brum, back in 1974 (I think!), and we worked with them for a good few years after. Those were the days, weren't they!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: Schantieman
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 09:31 AM

Dunno really.   Before my time!


(Only just, akshly - I started about 1975!)

:-)

Steve


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 10:28 AM

Ha! I made my first (post-pubertic) public appearance in 1969!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: Schantieman
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 03:53 AM

I am yet but a mere child


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 05:12 AM

And a tautological one, at that!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: Schantieman
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 06:29 AM

Oh yes.   Sorry!

Many years ago I was teaching a fairly bright fifth form. One of them had written something tautologous so I noted "tautology" in the margin. The following week he made exactly the same statement in a subsequent piece of work (this was in the days when I used to mark work every week!) and had added, "This is known as tautology."!

I suggested he buy a dictionary.

;-)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: GUEST,David Perry
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 08:00 PM

I think it was in the 60's that the John Bambling show on WOr played selections from Anachriotics that included "Down among the Dead Men" and "The Rat Catchers Daughter". I bought the record and it may have been one of the popular labels like RCA. Anacriotics are drinking songs. Unfortunately, by mistake, I set a flood lignt down on a corner of the record, and the outside edge is warped, but some of the songs are still there on the inside.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 10:35 PM

Anacreontics, named for the Greek poet Anacreon.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 04:19 PM

And the song that often preceded a bibulous harmonic meeting (following the custom of the eighteenth century Anacreontic Society) was the Anacreontic Hymn, whose tune was later adopted as the American national anthem. A lot of drunken Englishmen by the dawn's early light, you might say.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 04:21 PM

Sorry. A bad case of thread drift.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: MMario
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 04:23 PM

Billy - for this forum that practically qualifies as dead on-topic!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 07:35 AM

I still have a cassette tape (somewhere) with John Foreman singing the song in about 1973, at the Valley Folk Club in Pontardawe. See Schantieman's posting above from 2003.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: GUEST,Robin 'Slim' Gray
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 11:06 AM

I was in the Catford Taverners, Brothers Gray, and Four Sqare Circle folk bands and got the Rat Catcher's Daughter from John Foreman when we ran 'Folk Song at the Railway',Railway Tavern, Catford. I know Dave Watts used to sing the song and I have sung it ever since I first learned it, and still do. It always goes down a bomb with every one joining in. I am amazed at how few people know it.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 11:33 AM

Its interesting to see how many people got songs from John Foreman !
A lovely man and a fine entertainer , and not at all jealous of his material !


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 03:02 AM

First heard this song on an Elsa Lanchester record, and had a bitch of a time finding lyrics to it (or any of the others she sang). Glad to see that there are other people who've heard this; I was beginning to think myself quite the freak for even knowing of it. But, then again, I was born in '82, so I stil may cross that freak mark.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: GUEST,oigle
Date: 26 Dec 07 - 05:21 AM

Hello Everyone,
My dad used to sing this song when I was a boy and I always remember the end,"and that was the end of lilly white sands,
    The donkey and the ratcatchers daughter".
I was born in 1937 so it was a while ago.I just googled up "the donkey and the ratcatchers daughter" and got all this fine information.
What a beaut site.
Oigle.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: GUEST,Owen The Nutter
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 06:22 AM

Hey people
for all you music trivia fans out there, it may interest you to know that the son of The Broadsheet King John Foreman, Chris, is the guitarist of the deathless ska-pop band Madness, and can be heard playing on their new album, The Liberty Of Norton Folgate, a great album conceptually based on the history of London, in particular the epic ten minute title track.
ta.


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Subject: Lyr Add: DER SCHÖNEN RATTENFÄNGERS-TOCHTER
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 17 Apr 09 - 02:16 PM

Anybody craving a German version? From Der Einfluss äusserer Faktoren auf das Geschlechtsleben in England by Iwan Bloch (Berlin: M. Lilienthal, 1903):

In Westminster lebte vor kurzer Zeit
Eines Rattenfängers Tochter.
Geboren war sie auf der anderen Seit'
Des Wassers und kam auch von dorther.
Ihr Vater fing Ratten und sie rief Sprott
Auf den Strassen aus und wer mocht' ihr
Vorübergehen? Alle kauften Sprott
Von der schönen Rattenfängers-Tochter.

Sie trug keinen Hut auf ihrem Kopf,
Noch Mütz' und modischen Schwindel,
Die Haare flogen um ihren Kopf
Just wie ein Rübenbündel,
Wenn sie Sprott ausrief in Westminster,
So laut von der Lippe floss ihr
Das Wort, dass man's hörte ganz Parliamentstreet
Bis hinauf weit nach Charing-Cross, Sir!

Die Reichen kamen von Nah und auch von Fern
Und sie gaben viel gute Wort' ihr,
Doch sie that auslachen wohl Freund und Feind,
Ja, das that des Rattenfängers Tochter!
Denn da rief ein Mann aus lilienweissen Sand,
Und der war süsser Trost und Hort ihr —
Und über Kopf und Ohren in Liebe war
Des schönen Rattenfängers Tochter.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: GUEST,MadauntieCat
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 05:12 AM

Just to resuscitate this thread...
I sang Ratcatcher's Daughter on Widdlesday at the session at the Plume at Castlemorton.
I used the Paescod version, which has the gentleman's name as Lily-White Sam...a misprunt? Also in the spoken post-script the bodies is bose resuscitated and buried in one seminary but the epitaph is writ on the epiphilamium for all to see.

Some of the old muddyevil rinactors present went slightly moist at the gills at the reminiscence of Paescod playing the Beer Tent at the Tewkesbury M-evil festival. Ahhh those were the days...


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 05:19 AM

There was a man, sold/called "lily white sand"!.
Sand was used for a lot of household tasks, from 'blotting paper' to knife polisher, and pan scourer.
So it was sold by street vendors for these purposes.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: GUEST,Sheet Music collectibles..Barbara Hospel
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 10:49 PM

I havae the sheet music published in London and it says it was immortalized by PUNCH. I have been trying to date this sheet music with a great cover so I can sell it. Any idea as to date?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 12:18 AM

Ms. Hospel - Ideas? - yes. Start a thread with the topic of the music, don't drop a non-sequitur request into the middle of another thread. Use a consistent guest moniker so people know who they're talking to. And come back occasionally to see if you get a response.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 09:16 AM

And take no notice of anything that looks like criticism -- it probably isn't.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 10:14 AM

This is for Dave Bryant, if he notices this. Actually, I do want to contact John Foreman, the Broadsheet King. It's to request an interview for a book I'm writing about one of his friends from the old days, Bill Leader. Can you help, Dave? (Hopefully in time for my trip to London next week, 19-22 March.) Thanks, I'm contactable on 0161 226 5461 or wildchild.butler@gmail.com.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: GUEST,Litto
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 01:56 PM

sorry, I forget my mudcat monicker for the above message to Dave Bryant.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Ratcatcher's Daughter
From: thnidu
Date: 23 May 18 - 12:36 AM

GUEST,David Perry wrote (13 years ago!) :
>>>
I think it was in the 60's that the John Bambling show on WOr played selections from Anachriotics that included "Down among the Dead Men" and "The Rat Catchers Daughter".
<<<
I grew up in Noo Yawk in the sixties, and I well remember that show on WOR. The man's last name was Gambling, with G not B, and the show was called "Rambling with Gambling". Wikipedia has an article about the program.


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