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Lyr Req: Coal-Black Smith? / Two Magicians

DigiTrad:
HIDE WILLIE HIDE
THE TWO MAGICIANS
TWA MAGICIANS
TWO MAGICIANS


Related threads:
Lyr Req: The Two Magicians (A. L. Lloyd) (18)
(origins) Origins: Two Magicians (61)
Chords Req: Two Magicians (14)
Lyr Req: Two Magicians -at Reed College Renn Fayre (5)
Twa Magicians (7)


In Mudcat MIDIs:
The Coal-Black Smith, or The Two Magicians (Child #44)
The Twa Magicians, or The Coal-Black Smith (Child #44 Steeleye Span recorded on Now We Are Six)


Rex 12 Apr 00 - 11:59 AM
MMario 12 Apr 00 - 12:12 PM
GUEST,aldus 12 Apr 00 - 12:18 PM
GreatGoo 12 Apr 00 - 12:24 PM
Malcolm Douglas 12 Apr 00 - 01:44 PM
GUEST 12 Apr 00 - 03:35 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 12 Apr 00 - 03:35 PM
Rex 13 Apr 00 - 11:55 AM
Malcolm Douglas 13 Apr 00 - 12:24 PM
Margaret V 13 Apr 00 - 07:59 PM
Malcolm Douglas 13 Apr 00 - 08:55 PM
Margaret V 13 Apr 00 - 09:42 PM
Malcolm Douglas 13 Apr 00 - 11:48 PM
Alan of Australia 14 Apr 00 - 01:06 AM
MMario 14 Apr 00 - 09:12 AM
Malcolm Douglas 14 Apr 00 - 09:51 AM
GUEST,Alison Hull 08 Jul 13 - 02:41 AM
Phil Cooper 08 Jul 13 - 09:46 AM
Phil Cooper 08 Jul 13 - 09:56 AM
Brian Peters 08 Jul 13 - 10:43 AM
GUEST,John Foxen 08 Jul 13 - 11:58 AM
Brian Peters 08 Jul 13 - 12:26 PM
Phil Cooper 08 Jul 13 - 01:11 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jul 13 - 02:40 AM
Brian Peters 09 Jul 13 - 07:14 AM
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Subject: Bold Black Smith
From: Rex
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 11:59 AM

Well I checked in the Digitrad first. Don't look for songs without it! One pops up but not the one I'm seeking. Then I checked the forum search. Nothing. So then I just tried "Black Smith". Nothing. Hmm, is the forum search working? I put in "possum". Whoa! Yep the forum search still works.

Anyway. I'm looking for the version that ends each verse with "lusty, musty, tusky bold (or coal) black smith". Anyone know it? Thanky,

Rex


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Subject: RE: Bold Black Smith
From: MMario
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 12:12 PM

I THINK you want "the Two Magicians"

lusty lyrics


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Subject: RE: Bold Black Smith
From: GUEST,aldus
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 12:18 PM

It is called Two Magicians. I know it has been recorded by Steeleye Span.


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Subject: ADD Version: Coal Black Smith
From: GreatGoo
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 12:24 PM

God, this must be deja vu. I was sitting here at the MadCat for the first time in a long time and thinking of this very song. (Que the "Twilight Zone" music)

I heard this on a tape by a local group in Kodiak Alaska. I remember the album name was Freest Fancy, might have been the groups name too.

From Memory...

Oh she looked out of the window
As white as any mirror
And he looked into the window
As black as any seer

(Chorus)
Hello hello hello hello
You coal black smith
You have done me no harm
But you never shall have me name and that
That I have kept so long
I'd rather die a maid, she said
An be burried all in me grave
Than to have such a musty, lusty, crusty coal black smith
An then an I should die

And she became a star
A star all in the night
And he became a thundercloud
And bundled her out of sight

(Chorus)

An she became a trout
A trout all in the brook
And he became a butterfly
And touched her with his crook

(Chorus)

And she became a fly
A fly all in the air
And he became a spider
And touched her to his lair

(Chorus)

And she became a rose
A rose all in the woods
And he became a bubblebee
And whisked her where she stood

(Chorus)

And she became a corpse
A corpse all in the ground
And he became the cold clay
And smothered her all around

Hello hello hello hello
Hello hello hello hello
Hello hello hello hello
You coal black smith!


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Subject: Lyr Add: COAL-BLACK SMITH / TWO MAGICIANS^^
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 01:44 PM

It may be found in a number of poetry anthologies, none of which I seem to have.  I did find the following, however, on one of those neo-pagan sites; I believe that it's the version Steeleye Span recorded on Now We Are Six, and is pretty close to what I remember.

COAL-BLACK SMITH (The Two Magicians)

She looked out of the window, as white as any milk
He looked in at the window, as black as any silk

Chorus:

Hello, hello, hello, hello you coal-black smith
You have done me no harm!
You never shall have my maidenhead
That I have kept so long!
I'd rather die a maid, aye, and then she said,
And be buried all in my grave,
Than to have such a nasty, husky, dusky, fusty, musty, coal-black smith!
A maiden I will die!

She became a duck, a duck all in the stream
And he became a waterdog, and fetched her back again

She became a star, a star all in the night
And he became a thundercloud and muffled her out of sight

She became a rose, a rose all in the wood
And he became a bumblebee and kissed her where she stood

She became a nun, a nun all dressed in white
And he became a chantry priest to pray for her by night

She became a trout, a trout all in the brook
And he became a feathered fly, and catched her with his hook

She became a quilt, a quilt all on her bed
And he became a coverlet, and gained her maidenhead!^^

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Bold Black Smith
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 03:35 PM

As noted in Bronson's 'The Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads' (#44), the version that Cecil Sharp collected from Mr. Sparks on Aug 8th, 1904, was published in many places, starting with JFSS #6, p. 50, 1905, wherre his title for it was "The Two Magicians; or, The Coal Black Smith". [Earlier in the same issue of JFSS, starting on p. 40m Sharp gave 3 versions of "Hares on the Mountains". These tunes are also given by Bronson as well a tune for it from the complete Petrie collection. All of these tunes are stressed note and mode coded in file COMBCOD2.TXT on my website.]


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Subject: RE: Bold Black Smith
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 03:35 PM

Sorry, I fogot to sign the last.


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Subject: RE: Bold Black Smith
From: Rex
Date: 13 Apr 00 - 11:55 AM

Whoop! That's it! I read the post from GreatGoo in amazement and then ran downstairs and dusted off another old disk. The group you recall is (or was) Banish Misfortune and the album is indeed Freest Fancy offered through Kicking Mule Records. Remember them? Gosh, I had it right here all the time. A shame that I should forget they did it. And so well too. I saw them once at Swallow Hill in Denver. What may have become of them? GreatGoo, thank you for reminding me of this great album. And thank you Malcolm for fleshing the words out a little more. It's such a fun version of the song. Well Mudcatters, you've made my day.

Rex


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Subject: RE: Bold Black Smith
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 13 Apr 00 - 12:24 PM

Bruce's comments reminded me that I do actually have a copy of Mr. Sparks' version (he was a blacksmith, incidentally!); the Steeleye Span recording -text, that is, I don't recall the tune they used- would seem to be his set, with more verses added from other sources.  He sang "maiden name" instead of "maidenhead".

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Bold Black Smith
From: Margaret V
Date: 13 Apr 00 - 07:59 PM

I'm sorry to say all my Steeleye Span is trapped on vinyl (I am without a turntable, alas) but if memory serves, their last verse is not the one Malcolm's neo-pagan pals included about the quilt but as follows: "She became a corpse, a corpse all in the ground, and he became the cold grave and smothered her all around." Margaret


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Subject: RE: Bold Black Smith
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 13 Apr 00 - 08:55 PM

Pals??  Er, no...just something I found.  While I have nothing against neo-pagans in principal, they do have a tendency to romanticise traditional music and insist on a fanciful -and imaginary- "pre-christian" origin for the most surprising things.

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Bold Black Smith
From: Margaret V
Date: 13 Apr 00 - 09:42 PM

(Malcolm, I wasn't in earnest when I called them your pals. I was merely being fanciful and imaginary in my choice of words! No offense or confusion intended. Sincerely, Margaret)


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Subject: RE: Bold Black Smith
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 13 Apr 00 - 11:48 PM

Not at all!  I do have some quite embarrassing friends, after all...

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Bold Black Smith
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 01:06 AM

G'day,
Thanks to Malcolm the tune for "The Coal-Black Smith" can be found here at the Mudcat MIDI site.

Cheers,
Alan


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Subject: RE: Bold Black Smith
From: MMario
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 09:12 AM

for the final verse I've always liked

She became a bottle of wine, filled with sparkling red
And he became a big thick cork and gained her...

The lyrics all told,that I am used to, are a bit more suggestive then the ones quoted in the thread, though similair to the ones in the DT


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Subject: RE: Bold Black Smith
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 09:51 AM

Many of the source-singers in those days toned down the more suggestive material, either because they were personally uncomfortable with it, or in deference to the sensibilities, real or perceived, of the collectors, who tended to be "gentry".   I think it was Lucy Broadwood who had a terrible time getting hold of one particular song; the singer absolutely refused to sing it in front of a lady.  Having said that, some of the more explicit verses one sometimes hears in this song are likely to be recent additions, like the one above!

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Coal-Black Smith? / Two Magicians
From: GUEST,Alison Hull
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 02:41 AM

I have read that the tune is quite new while the words are very old and was seeking an older tune for this.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Coal-Black Smith? / Two Magicians
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 09:46 AM

Check out the version from Martin Carthy's first album or the version sung by John Roberts & Tony Barrand from their album Dark Ship in the Forest. You may find someone has done a youtube version of either of those.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Coal-Black Smith? / Two Magicians
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 09:56 AM

Here is a link with the more usual tune performed by Bob Fox & Stu Luckley. I'm not good at the blicky thing so you can cut and paste the link and go back to youtube and find it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w74cH5McVBM


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Coal-Black Smith? / Two Magicians
From: Brian Peters
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 10:43 AM

"I have read that the tune is quite new while the words are very old and was seeking an older tune for this."

I believe Bert Lloyd made up the tune that's usually used for the Buchan text, so you're right on that score.

The 'Coal Black Smith' tune, though, is at least 109 years old - that's when Cecil Sharp collected it - and it may of course be a hundred or more years older still. You can now see it online here, at the Full English website.

James Madison Carpenter notated a tune (actually more than one, though that's another story) from Bell Duncan, to a text not unlike the Buchan one, only much shorter. That one two goes back further than Bert Lloyd!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Coal-Black Smith? / Two Magicians
From: GUEST,John Foxen
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 11:58 AM

In his notes to the song he collected from William Sparks in around , Cecil Sharpe says he believes the tune to be more recent than the lyrics. But he could not find anyone else who knew the song let alone an older tune.
The other tune appears to be one that Bert Lloyd created.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Coal-Black Smith? / Two Magicians
From: Brian Peters
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 12:26 PM

"Cecil Sharpe says he believes the tune to be more recent than the lyrics."

Ah yes, so he does. But he seems nonetheless to be saying that the tune is as old as the 18th or 19th century. It does have a rather sing-song character, like the comic songs Sharp realtes it to.

The Scots version of the ballad was published in 1828 and, since Buchan claimed to have taken down his ballads from 'very old people' that would push it back in to the mid 18th C. It would be interesting to know how much further back it could be traced - probably as a folk tale.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Coal-Black Smith? / Two Magicians
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 01:11 PM

Brian, you're comments reminded me that I had also heard Bert Lloyd doing the tune version that I posted. I do have a fond memory of being asked to back John Roberts & Tony Barrand up on guitar for that song in a workshop at Fox Valley one year.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Coal-Black Smith? / Two Magicians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 02:40 AM

Hi Brian.
"I believe Bert Lloyd made up the tune"
This from the notes to MacColl's recording of the ballad on volume 5 of the 'Blood and Roses' set
"Child's only version of this fine ballad, a Scots one from Aberdeenshire, was "Englished" by A.L. Lloyd in the 1960's and wedded to a Greig-Duncan tune of "Katherine Jaffray" (Child 221). It became, and deservedly so, a very popular item in the repertory of folk-revivalists. France, Poland, Italy, Catalan Spain, Greece, Roumania and Turkey have all yielded sets of the ballad."
Personally, I'm rather fond of Roger Corman's rendition of the story in a beautifully over-the-top film based on an Edgar Allan Poe story (The Raven?), where a wonderfully hammy Vincent Price exchanges spells with a rival magician - maybe not to everybody's taste though!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Coal-Black Smith? / Two Magicians
From: Brian Peters
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 07:14 AM

"...wedded to a Greig-Duncan tune of "Katherine Jaffray" (Child 221)"

Yep, you're right - there it is in Bronson (221:10). Now I come to think of it, it's been said before of Lloyd that he usually used an existing tune rather than just making one up. I'll watch my words more closely next time.

When Carpenter is published, I think the Bell Duncan tunes for this ballad are going to excite some interest. I believe that the version in Roy Palmer's book used only a part of what she sang.

'The Raven' is a classic, but then I'm a big fan of Vincent Price. His Shakespearian hamming in 'Theatre of Blood' takes some beating.


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