Really dumb guitar question

Subject: Really dumb guitar question
From: MK
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 03:27 PM

I'll preface this by stating that this is probably a really stupid question, and that the answer is probably right in front of my face, but it could be a question of not seeing the forest for the trees.

I have a newish guitar that has had very little play-in time. It also has an under-the-saddle-pickup on it.

The other night I was changing strings on it and giving it a polishing, and during the process at one point the saddle literally fell out of the bridge.

For the life of me, I couldn't figure out which way the saddle should be put back in. I do know the bottom part of the saddle is flat, and not bevilled like the top part that the strings cross over. But because the saddle height is pretty well uniform all the way across, and there are not really any well-worn indentation marks from string wear, grooved into the saddle, I was unsure when I put it back in whether the high strings were crossing where the low ones should be and vice versa.

It seems to play allright and the intonation seems okay. Is there a way to tell if I have it back in properly, or, given the previous sentence do I even need to worry about it.

Any thoughts?

Subject: RE: Really dumb guitar question
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 03:34 PM

... well, if I'm not mistaken, you're bridge fell out of the saddle, rather then the other way around. I believe you'll find the saddle is the part glued to the face into which is set the bridge ... but, having said that, I suspect there will be a difference top vs bottom, but if it sounds good and the intonation is good you probably have it right.

Anyway of getting it to your favorite guitar repairman for a quick verfication?

Subject: RE: Really dumb guitar question
From: Toad
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 03:37 PM

Well I do a lot of guitar set ups and I think that in your case there really is no way for you to tell. If the saddle height it the same for the sixth string as the first and the second as the fourth and so on then it shouldn't matter a whole lot. One way to tell for sure is to check your string height at the twelvth fret. The sixth string is usually a little higher than the first. It needs to be this way becuse the sixth string makes a wider pattern when it is sounding than does the first.

Subject: RE: Really dumb guitar question
From: Toad
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 03:40 PM

The saddle is the part that fits into the saddle slot. The saddle slot is the slot that is cut into the bridge. You can remember shich is which by thinking that the string straddels the saddle.

Subject: RE: Really dumb guitar question
From: MK
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 04:09 PM

Thanks toad. I'll measure it and see.

(And thanks Jed. By the way Toad is correct. You have it backwards. *BG*....but you just play it and enjoy it right?...without having to know all the semantics and part names. It's like me driving a car. I do it, but couldn't tell a water pump from an alternator. *BG*

Subject: RE: Really dumb guitar question
From: Scotsbard
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 04:22 PM

Depending on your guitar's construction, the bevel on top of the bridge may not be symmetrical. In some cases it may actually have some abrupt changes to compensate for the different string characteristics.

If the bridge bevel is symmetrical for its full length (like this ./\. ) then the height method Toad describes is your best bet.

If the bridge bevel is not symmetrical for its full length (like this ./|. ) "usually" the flatter side faces towards the neck.

If the bevel changes along the length of the bridge and the saddle slot is cut perpendicular to the strings and neck, then usually the bridge is set to make the bass E string longer than the treble E string.

To check things after you get it restrung, the harmonic at the twelfth fret for each string should sound the same pitch as when the strings are fretted. If not, then you either have the bridge backwards or need some setup work on the guitar.

~S~

Subject: RE: Really dumb guitar question
From: folk1234
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 04:50 PM

Lesson learned - Change only one string at a time. Long ago I heard that you could damage a guitar if you took off all the strings. It would seem to me that damage would be more likely to occur when all but one or two strings were removed, especially if the remaining strings were either the 1st and/or 2nd or the 5th and/or 6th.
Bye the way, there are no stupid questions. Howevere here at the 'cat, you'll find some pretty tangential responses from time to time. Good luck to you, and Happy chords.

Subject: RE: Really dumb guitar question
From: Mooh
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 10:21 PM

If your saddle comes out that readily, it's too loose. You should almost (!) be able to pick up your guitar by the saddle if there are no strings on it. Why? A snug fit ensures that the saddle doesn't lean, in effect shortening the string length and screwing up the intonation. It also ensures good coupling of the string to the soundboard over the saddle/bridge, improving tone and sustain.

My advice is to get a proper saddle cut, and yes even the finest guitars sometimes come with lousy saddles, particularly if there's been an aftermarket installation of a pickup. Do not shim! Lots of good saddle materials out there, but I prefer bone.

A simple pencilled 1 or 6 on the relevant end of the saddle below the top of the bridge will solve your problem in the meantime.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Really dumb guitar question
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 10:55 PM

Well, since we're talking about saddles...........

Because the sadlle imparts sound to the soundboard, it is a very critical part. Yes, it should be tight, but that doesn't mean you need pliers to remove it. Bone is of course classic, but antler is very hard and does a nice job too. "Tusq," a synthetic, is popular among some of the top makers right now too. It is friction free which is a major plus. Another big trick at the moment is a "blended" saddle using Tusq or bone and a graphite block underneath it. The matching sufaces have to be perfect for best results.

Also....Once again, that "change one string at a time or you'll damage the guitar" stuff is an old wive's tale. ..........Yeah, I know....Y'all know some smart ol wives........but really, its crap!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Really dumb guitar question
From:
Date: 13 Apr 00 - 07:11 AM

I have two guitars. The instructions that come with one of them say that you should remove all the strings when changing them so that you can wipe off the fingerboard, etc. The other one says to always change one string at a time. Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chance. I usually tune down all of the strings on my steel string guitar so I can part the strings and reach into the sound hole and push up the *@!! buttons that hold the strings on the bridge end. Then I take off all the strings, and put them on under lower tension--about a fourth below pitch. When all the strings are on, I tune up the guitar. On the other hand, with my nylon string guitar, I take off one string at a time, put on the new string and bring it up to pitch. Why? That is the way I was taught by the two different teachers for the two different styles.

Incidentally, some saddles have a little notch cut out for intonation correction. If yours has that it should face the nut and be under the "G" string.

If this thread were advertised as a stupid question, I would have considered it beyond me and not have resonded. It was the "really" that got me ;-}

Murray

Subject: RE: Really dumb guitar question
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 13 Apr 00 - 08:23 AM

Spaw, thanks for putting that old wives' tale to bed -- it's a persistent one. Like you, I mean no disrespect for old wives, or young ones, for that matter.

Murray, as a rule your bridge pins shouldn't be so tight that you have to push them out from the bottom. Once you've loosened any given string and allowed the ball end to drop away from the underside of the bridge, the pins should come right out when you pull them with your fingers. I only mention this because some people are under the mistaken impression that you need to pound the bridge pins in so that they'll keep the strings securely fashioned. This is a good way to split the bridge (a fairly common problem).

Subject: RE: Really dumb guitar question
From: tar_heel
Date: 13 Apr 00 - 01:29 PM

back in the saddle again ,out where a friend meets a friend...mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm it''s cold and rainy here today and i'm bored ....you can tell,i'm sure.

Subject: RE: Really dumb guitar question
From: Bert
Date: 13 Apr 00 - 01:38 PM

I agree with Spaw. If taking all the strings off could damage a guitar, how did they make the bloody thing in the first place?
Bert.

Subject: RE: Really dumb guitar question
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Apr 00 - 05:41 PM

I've never yet seen a compensated saddle that was compensated on the G string rather than the B