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Can clarinet be a folk instrument?

Kelida 16 Apr 00 - 09:05 PM
Ed Pellow 16 Apr 00 - 09:09 PM
sophocleese 16 Apr 00 - 09:10 PM
Dale Rose 16 Apr 00 - 09:20 PM
Mark Cohen 16 Apr 00 - 09:29 PM
Kelida 16 Apr 00 - 09:39 PM
GUEST, Threadie 16 Apr 00 - 09:42 PM
Sorcha 16 Apr 00 - 10:08 PM
Mbo 16 Apr 00 - 10:11 PM
Kelida 16 Apr 00 - 10:16 PM
Bill D 16 Apr 00 - 10:23 PM
Malcolm Douglas 16 Apr 00 - 10:36 PM
Kelida 16 Apr 00 - 10:47 PM
Bob Bolton 16 Apr 00 - 11:43 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 17 Apr 00 - 12:53 AM
Jeremiah McCaw 17 Apr 00 - 01:41 AM
Callie 17 Apr 00 - 03:45 AM
alison 17 Apr 00 - 04:28 AM
GUEST,Roger the skiffler 17 Apr 00 - 04:41 AM
GUEST,Sian in Wales 17 Apr 00 - 05:29 AM
IanC 17 Apr 00 - 05:48 AM
Mark Cohen 17 Apr 00 - 05:50 AM
Mooh 17 Apr 00 - 09:00 AM
Jon Freeman 17 Apr 00 - 09:55 AM
GUEST,Calum Galleitch 17 Apr 00 - 12:20 PM
Willie-O 17 Apr 00 - 01:41 PM
Willie-O 17 Apr 00 - 01:53 PM
Kelida 17 Apr 00 - 01:54 PM
GUEST,Phil Cooper 17 Apr 00 - 02:01 PM
Jon Freeman 17 Apr 00 - 04:30 PM
rpm 17 Apr 00 - 09:07 PM
GUEST 17 Apr 00 - 09:16 PM
DougR 17 Apr 00 - 11:23 PM
John in Brisbane 18 Apr 00 - 02:37 AM
Jon Freeman 18 Apr 00 - 09:38 AM
Jo Taylor 18 Apr 00 - 07:36 PM
Bob Bolton 18 Apr 00 - 09:06 PM
Kelida 18 Apr 00 - 09:51 PM
Seamus Kennedy 19 Apr 00 - 01:24 AM
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Subject: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: Kelida
Date: 16 Apr 00 - 09:05 PM

I keep mentioning this, but my friend and I both play clarinet as our primary instrument, and we want to start a celtic folk band. However, I was wondering if anyone had any input as to whether or not clarinet could even be a folk instrument.

I've always thought that clarinet is more of a baroque-originated instrument, but am I wrong? Does it have origins in an earlier time period?

--or--

Are there any earlier clarinet-like instruments that might be more suitable for the type of music we want to play?

Also, any thoughts on whether or not it's sacreligious to play a jig on clarinet? Would celtic purists lynch us if we did?

Peace--Bridget


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 16 Apr 00 - 09:09 PM

Your instrument is a few pieces of wood, combined with some metal. What you do with it is entirely up to you.

There really aren't any rules

Ed


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: sophocleese
Date: 16 Apr 00 - 09:10 PM

Might as well play a jig on a clarinet as on a bouzouki, that's an ancient Irish instrument for you. I play some tunes on recorder. Clarinets, being reed instruments are probably descendants of doodlezacks, bagpipes whatever, so I think you could play what you wanted on them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: Dale Rose
Date: 16 Apr 00 - 09:20 PM

There used to be an old time string band in the St. Louis area which featured a flute at times. Quite effective actually.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 16 Apr 00 - 09:29 PM

Listen to klezmer music if you want to hear the clarinet in a folk tradition. I can't remember most of the names offhand and don't have a link for you, but if you do a search on Andy Statman or Klezmer +clarinet that should get you started. No, it's not celtic, but there was a Jewish Lord Mayor of Dublin not too long ago, and of course there's Leopold Bloom. And on your original question, if you're a good clarinetist and you like Celtic music, then do it. Since the clarinet is probably the closest wind instrument to the timbre of the human voice, you might do something wonderful with the slow airs and sean nos tunes. You might even start a new tradition!

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: Kelida
Date: 16 Apr 00 - 09:39 PM

Actually, I've found that with a little coaxing, a clarinet can even sound similar to a bagpipe, and I do love the way it blends with a nice, mellow vocalist.

Mellifluous tone.

Peace--Bridget


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: GUEST, Threadie
Date: 16 Apr 00 - 09:42 PM

If Keith Donald could play jigs and reels on the saxophone on the first Moving Hearts album (1981), then you can do it with a clarinet, or oboe, or anything else that tickles your fancy.

Anecdote:

A well known fiddle player was sitting in a session in Gary Pepper's pub in Feakle along with some others.
In the door comes a long haired gentleman with a long hollow piece of wood. He asks the well respected fiddler, as a matter of courtesy, could he join the session.

After sitting beside him for about thirty minutes, the fiddle player turns to the young gentleman and asks him

"What do you call that then?
"It's a Didgeridoo" says the visitor.
Paddy turned around as quick as a flash, and said

"Well didgeri don't"


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Apr 00 - 10:08 PM

If De Dannan can play "klezmer hornpipes" you can play "hornpipe-y klezmer! No rules!


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: Mbo
Date: 16 Apr 00 - 10:11 PM

It works, K! Mixing it up with new instrumentation is DEFINATELY a plus! Reels & strathspeys on a clarinet instead of say, a tin whistle or fiddle, is a delightful surprise, and a change from the norm (not that anything's WRONG with the norm!) Clarinets have that neat fluid sound...I know lots of traditional tunes that would sound EXCELLENT in such an arrangement!

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: Kelida
Date: 16 Apr 00 - 10:16 PM

The only real problem with the clarinet over a tin whistle is that songs take much longer to learn a song on because the fingering is so much more difficult. That, plus I didn't play clarinet for almost two years after middle school, and I've only now found time to practice regularly again. On the other hand, it's a lot like riding a bicycle. . .

Peace--Keli


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Apr 00 - 10:23 PM

we have a friend who plays clairinet quite well...she uses it on some things and makes a nice sound...she doesn't 'horn' in on people's Child ballads, but it adds to many things...(I used to play myself, but no longer own one, so do recorder instead()


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Apr 00 - 10:36 PM

The clarinet is commonly used in Central European dance music; in its present form it's a new arrival, but single-reed instruments like it have been around, as other people have already said, for a very long time.  Earlier versions of the instrument ("clarionet" for example) were certainly popular in English vernacular music in the 18th century, particularly in church bands.  I've played what you'd call "celtic" music from time to time with clarinet players, and it works very well indeed; though the commonly-used keys are not always the most comfortable ones for them.  Go for it, and good luck; if anybody quibbles about it, you can tell them that the clarinet is older than the uilleann pipes (true.)

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: Kelida
Date: 16 Apr 00 - 10:47 PM

The most common "troublesome" key I've found is anything where C's are sharp, because the fingering between B/Bb and C# on a clarinet is VERY VERY awkward. Other than that, I haven't seen any other problems. I usually just play natural C's, and it isn't that noticable of a change in most pieces where the "problem" occurs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 16 Apr 00 - 11:43 PM

G'day Kelida,

This doesn't relate specifically to "celtic" music (and especially not to Irish music post 1920s ethnic cleansing), we (Backblock Musicians) have had some lovely work with a C clarinet in Australian traditional music. The early settlers often brought personally owned instruments from there past in English / Irish / Scottish / Welsh / German / &c towns and villages when they migrated.

The level of playing in many small towns and villages was far higher than we children of the TV set can credit and people often saved long to buy good instruments. I have seen photographs of small music groups in the Australian outback of the last century with mixtures like:

clarinet, fiddle and Anglo concertina,
2 autoharps, an Anglo concertina and a fiddle,
portable harmonium, button accordion and flute

and what I have never seen in the old photographic record is a guitar! They were too quiet, too delicate, too fragile ... and too prone to disintegrate in the long dry heat of the inland. Only modern adhesives (and judicious use of plywoods) have made the guitar a popular instrument in country districts - yet EVERY folk group has at least one guitar. Why ... because they WORK!

If you make clarinet work ... it works. It has been around for centuries - less changed than the current forms of many instruments happily accepted in folk groups. "Folk keys" will probably be the greatest problem - I don't image that 'D', 'G' - and especially 'A' - are enjoyable on a 'Bb' clarinet. A 'C' clarinet is a lot better off with these keys, but that may be another instrument.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 12:53 AM

Kelida,
A friend of mine, Monica MacDougall, plays Scottish Fiddle Music on her Soprano Saxaphone.

I definitely believe that you should be able to play your clarinet with the music you choose. Of course, in some instances, you'd have to transpose to get it to fit properly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 01:41 AM

If Rufus Harley can play jazz on the bagpipes, you can damn well play folk music on a clarinet!!! :-)

If you're interested in hearing what folk-rock clarinet might sound like, there's a band called "Night Sun" who work out of the Kingston area that is very good. Highly eclectic: Folk/Celtic/Klezmer/whatever.

Kelida's observation is right on: the "throat" notes, particularly Bb are like the 'B'-string on a guitar - God's way of telling musicians that there is a purgatory! There is supposedly an adaptation of the standard (Boehm) system that get around that. It's called the "Mazzeo" system; I believe Selmer makes them in their student Bundy line.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: Callie
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 03:45 AM

There's a local session where a clarinet player used to turn up quite regularly and keep up with the fiddles pretty well.

I reckon the worst thing about it will be the transposing. Most folk tunes are in D or G - which would put you in E or A. The fingering on clari is so awful that it could be very tiresome.

However, if you persevered &/or found more suitable tunes, I'm sure it would sound beautiful.

--Callie (a reformed clari player - now sax player!!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: alison
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 04:28 AM

In defence of the poor didge... it can sound great in folk music..... I played "she moved through the fair" on a whistle accompanied by a "D" digeridoo... very haunting..

as for the clarinet.. go for it.... you can play celtic on anything...... aren't some button accordions in Bb/C??... if so they'll play in keys more suitable for you....

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 04:41 AM

One of my favourite UK jazz clarinettist/sax players, the late Bruce Turner (aka the Dirty Bopper - B'ham Town Hall 1957) is featured on some of Ewan McColl's records and blends in nicely, IMHO.
RtS


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: GUEST,Sian in Wales
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 05:29 AM

Siwsi George's group, Mabsant, here in Wales has included a clarinet for years. And a number of twmpath bands, and groups accompanying folk dance groups, use them ... and whatever else is handy and 'works'.

Sian


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: IanC
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 05:48 AM

Hi!

If you're interested in English traditional music, there is a lot for clarionet. Try looking up "West Gallery Music" or Thomas Hardy (in a musical context) on the internet.

Cheers! IanC


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 05:50 AM

Bridget, another resource might be a clarinetist named Billy Novick, a good friend of my sister's in Lexington, Mass. He recorded several albums of traditional and jazz music in the 70s with an outstanding fingerstyle guitarist named Guy Van Duser. They have an album called The New Pennywhistle Songbook (or something like that) on which Billy plays amazing Irish traditional and jazz pennywhistle. I just saw Billy two weeks ago (at my nephew's Bar Mitzvah) and he's mostly playing jazz, film scores, and the like, but I'm sure he could give you tips on playing Celtic music on clarinet, good keys, fingerings, etc. If you're interested I can get his snail or email address for you. Good luck with the band.

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: Mooh
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 09:00 AM

Oh Kelida,

Anything can be a folk instrument! No doctrine here. Much of what one of my groups play was written (at least the melody was) before many commonplace folk instruments of today were evolved. Something from the 12th century predates every instrument we play and it really doesn't matter anyway. What matters is the spirit of the music. Electric keyboards, bass guitar, banjo, whatever, it's all interpretive anyway. Make the music yours with what you've got.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 09:55 AM

My rule is simple, if you can make it fit in, that is all that matters and I think that some people (not in this thread) can get too fussy over what "belongs" and what doesn't and half the people who moan are clueless anyway. My main instrumet is the tenor banjo and it seems to be readily accepted but the actual tenor banjo which is the most poular form of banjo for Irish music did not exist until round about 1915.

I can't remember hearing a clarinet played in a session but I know somebody who has been known to make a bassoon work very nicely.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: GUEST,Calum Galleitch
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 12:20 PM

After percussion, woodwind is the oldest type of instrument around, and the clarinet in particular can trace it's descent from, among other things, the binou of Brittany, still played popularly today. Folk music is the music you make with what you've got, not what it other people have. If your instrument changes it, so what? Until the purist ballad collectors came in, no-one on this planet gave two hoots about what folk music was, or whether it had been faithfully passed on. It just happened and whatever instument you care to name has been used to aid the process somewhere around.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: Willie-O
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 01:41 PM

Kel, there's a large and excellent collection of tunes in ABC format (check the ABC home page) called the Richard Robinson Tunebook. (Or Tune Collection, I forget.) Richard mentioned to me once in an e-mail that he plays em all on clarinet.

Generally they don't seem to be in weird clarinetty keys...you should ask him.

Best
Bill


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: Willie-O
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 01:53 PM

Here, I found the bookmark for Richard Robinson's Tunebook

Have fun...
W-O


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: Kelida
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 01:54 PM

I'll check that out--I might even have it bookmarked. Unfortunately, I don't really know how to read ABCs. Any thoughts on that?

Peace--Bridget


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: GUEST,Phil Cooper
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 02:01 PM

You may want to check out some Scottish Tune collections (Fraser, Skye, etc.) for some clarinet friendly keys. There's a lot of tunes there in Bb, F, and some of those relative minors. Good luck.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 04:30 PM

Kelida, This thread is short and gives links to some of the more popular websites for tunes. Several of these sites including Richard Robinsons mentioned above offer the tunes in gif format as well as ABC and you should be able to print those files straight off.

I would also suggest that you consider getting some ABC software as there is plenty of free and cheap shareware software available. Further details can be found at Chris Walshaws ABC home page (link in other thread).

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: rpm
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 09:07 PM

Awesome, simply awesome! I love the note(s) re klesmer music... I don't play an instrument but am a singing fool. I deerly want my children to have a voice when words won't come and I think that's at the root of the haunting sould of some fiddle and clarinet music. I've a dear freind 20 yrs. on from college who introduced me to klesmer, brisket and religion at the dining room table. I've a twelve year old who might be staying up late IF I can sneak him past the door to the computer. Mom thinks its too late to start on the web tonight. Sorry for the stream of consciousness.. did someone mention Bloom? -Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 09:16 PM

Mabsant, Mabsant, I haven't heard of them in years!!!

Does 'Ar Log' still exist?


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: DougR
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 11:23 PM

Who would have thought a cello might sound good with a rock band? I guess the Beatles did! Don't see why clarinet couldn't be used to play folk music.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 02:37 AM

Just a few odds and ends that might help:

Song For The Mira has a beautiful oboe obligato which would sound just fine on clari for what is a beautiful song. I have the oboe score if you'd like it.

Most fiddle players at sessions won't go out of their way to re-tune, but get one away from the herd and he/she might agree/condescend to either play in another key (if they're good enough) or agree to re-tune. Tuning up or down a tone is a novelty for them. They will be a bit frightened though that if they re-tune too much that they'll be transformed into banjo players.

Many clari players who leave the comfort of the woodwind/brass Bb/Eb nest buy a C clari (as Bob suggested). The prime benefit is the ability to use a standard score and hence avoid the need for transposition.

If you stick with your current clari you will probably wish to transpose scores that you download from the Web. While it is certainly true that there are many thousands of trad tunes in ABC format on the Web I would recommend the use of the MIDI style files for a PC user who wants to learn new trad tunes AND wants the flexibility to transpose and print. I will have to rely on others' generosity to give you the URl's but I would point you in the direction of NoteWorthy Composer (the free trial version is very useful) or the free MIDI printer that we've had a go at recently - sorry, forgotten the name.

The most comprehensive site that I know of for trad tunes and some software is Tunes At Ceolas - easy to find with a Search Engine. This site will direct you to all sorts of resources for ABC, MIDI and tunes you can print out.

Enjoy your playing. Regards, John


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 09:38 AM

I don't know how common this feature is but as well as transposing the score, Cakewalk can transpose one or more parts for playback. I have not tried to use it for clarinet transposition but I have found it useful when writing for instruments like the tenor banjo which play an octave lower than written. A slight drawback is that the files need to be saved in Cakewalks own format as saving as a MIDI produces a score written as it sounds. Another drawback is the price. CakeWalk Home Studio 9 which I believe is thier basic program is currently US $129.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: Jo Taylor
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 07:36 PM

Kelida, I have (although I don't play it much now) an old - circa 1900 - clarinet in C, simple system. (Not as many keys and twiddly bits.) I think they were used mainly in marching bands. One manufacturer started producing C clarinets in good quality plastic in the late 70s or early 80s but they were tonally a much harsher sound than my old wooden one. Wonderful for traditional music, the fingering is much easier, especially for the keys usually involved in trad music. (Yes, I know, but it's usually G or D when melodeons are involved!) I bought a Bb one afterwards, but couldn't really get on with that, and switched to sax.
Have a listen to Token Women 'The Rhythm Method' - I'm sure they've released further albums but that's the one I have - or to Jo Freya and Kathryn Locke (soprano sax & cello)- 'Strange Combination'. Wonderful stuff.
Jo


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 09:06 PM

G'day Kelida and Jo Taylor:

The Clarinet that Jo describes is pretty much what I mentioned in my earlier (16 April) posting. It only needs 1 and 2 semitones for 'G' and 'D', respectively, so it isn't too hard technically ... (?).

I seem to remember coming across (in one of the Americam Musical Instrument sites - bookmarked on my home machine) a Turkish metal Clarinet in 'G' for ~US$450 new. Slightly tricky fingering (Albert's System) but a great key for folk sessions.

There is no reason to think that the cliché instruments of the typical "Folk Band" in any way limit the individual's choice of instruments to play their music. If yoy aren't a 'folk' - what are you?

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: Kelida
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 09:51 PM

I saw a G clarinet at Lark in the Morning for that price--is that what you are thinking of? I really want it, but unfortunately I can't afford it right now. . .

Peace--Bridget


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Subject: RE: BS: Can clarinet be a folk instrument?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 01:24 AM

Kelida, I agree with Calum Galleitch. In fact, a lot of the old Irish céilí bands used horns and woodwinds. On my annual pub tour to Ireland (I bring Americans over every year) there are a couple of older gents who join us for a session in Seamus Delaney's pub in Kilkenny who play traditional tunes on clarinet and sax,. And damn fine they are too, I might add. And just like a lot of American string bands had musicians who doubled as comedy/comic relief, so too did the céilí and show bands, and the two gents I'm talking about still do some of their old routines between sets of tunes. Great stuff! All the best
Seamus


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