How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 04:05 PM

Exactly.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 03:37 PM

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: GUEST,greymalkin
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 12:51 PM

Yeah, the Iranian leader is a fun guy in reality. The Mullahs repressive? Not a bit. Twinkly-eyed and avuncular - always ready for a kick-about with a soccer ball. Or a woman's head.

    Ironic way to argue a point; make a different point. Four and a half years ago when I tried to convince people that going to war in Iraq was a horrible idea, all I heard was what a bad guy Saddam was. "He kills his own people (Kurds and Shiites) and attacks his neighbors (Kuwait, Iran)." Of course he's a bad man ,I said. The world is full of them. We can't make war on them all. Nor should we. Especially not when we are going to make the situation a whole lot worse. Which we did.
    Now people want to say Ahmadinejab is a bad guy. A fundamentalist.
He funds terrorism. He stifles free speech. He oppresses his people. Okay, I say, he's an asshole. The world is full of them. We can't go to war with all of them. Nor should we.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 01:57 PM

So what? I didn't SAY Ahmadinejab is a nice guy, nor did I say I like the Islamic regime in Iran one bit. I don't like them one bit. What I SAID was that he has been misquoted in the media, for propaganda purposes, because he never said one single thing about wiping Israel off the map. He has been lied about.

And that doesn't suit your purposes very well at all, does it? ;-)

That's why you're bringing up other peripheral matters in the form of innuendo to try to evade my point, which is that the main propaganda effort justifying a pre-emptive strike on Iran is based on a 100% myth propagated by the media.

That's how Goebbels did it too, he created myths and innuendo to justify aggression, and the Germans launched pre-emptive attacks on just about everyone in Europe...feeling totally justified, I'm sure. Their reward for that has been to be remembered as war criminals...which they were. So is the Bush administration.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: GUEST,greymalkin
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 12:51 PM

Yeah, the Iranian leader is a fun guy in reality. The Mullahs repressive? Not a bit. Twinkly-eyed and avuncular - always ready for a kick-about with a soccer ball. Or a woman's head.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 11:22 AM

Here is the widest spread myth of all...and it's not limited to conservatives...

The myth that Ahmadinejad said he wanted to "wipe Israel off the map".

He did not say that. He never said that. He said nothing of the kind. He did not use any such words.

Yet it has been repeated so many times now by so many people that it's useless now to even point out that he didn't say that.

The first people to misquote him were, ironically enough, a couple of Iranian publications! Their misquotes were then picked up by world news services and repeated ad infinitum, since it was a very handy misquote for the purposes of anyone wishing to have some damaging propaganda about Iran.

What he literally said, in Farsi, was this: He himself quoted an old statement from the late Ayatollah Khomeini, which was to this effect....that "this regime", meaning the present Israeli Zionist government will one day "vanish from the page of time". All governments and regimes one day vanish from the page of time...and they are replaced by some new government and regime. Study your history for confirmation of that.

Ahmadinejad then went on to say, in reference to the Ayatollah's quote, that the Zionist government presently ruling Israel would one day "vanish" as did the oppressive Soviet regime in the late 80's.

The Soviets did NOT meet their end by a foreign attack, and Russia was not wiped off the map by anyone. The Soviets met their end through a popular revolution, a peaceful one, and they collapsed from within. Russia is still "on the map", and it has not been wiped out.

Ahmadinejad did not, anywhere in his speech, assert that Iran had intentions of attacking Israel, or of wiping anyone off the map, let alone Israel. He did not use the words in Farsi which would translate as "wipe off the map". He did not suggest a military attack by Iran on Israel. What he did suggest (or what Ayatollah Khomeini suggested in the quote) was simply that the present Zionist government was not going to last forever, therefore opponents of it could be glad of that. Well, yeah! NO government lasts forever. To say that is not to threaten to militarily attack Israel.

But the propaganda sources in the West would have much preferred that Ahmadinejad directly threaten to annihilate Israel since THEY want to annihilate the Iranian Islamic regime, so when some oeverzealous fools in an Iranian news service carelessly misquoted Ahmadinejad, the West was absolutely delighted...and they have used the misquote ever since to foment war fever against Iran.

And I know...you probably don't care...or even believe me...because your mind is already made up....so just forget I even said all the above and go on believing forever that he said he would "wipe Israel off the map".

But he didn't. Sorry. He just didn't. He said that "this regime will vanish from the page of time". The "page of time" is a very long page, and all regimes vanish from it in due course, one way or another, and are replaced by some other regime.


The actual statement, translated into English is:

"The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time. This statement is very wise".

The Iran News Agency (IRNA) later referred to Ahmadinejad's speech saying:

"As the Soviet Union disappeared, the Zionist regime will also vanish and humanity will be liberated".

This quote was then "massaged" a bit by the Associated Press and changed to:

"The Zionist regime will be wiped out soon the same way the Soviet Union was, and humanity will achieve freedom".

Note the difference in the words...not accidental. "Wiped out" is an active end by violence. "Vanish" implies no such thing.

Ahmadinejad never said that Iran intended to wipe out anyone...but he has been quoted as saying that by the West, because that's the sort of thing they want him to say, in order to justify their pre-emptively attacking Iran.

See this link:

The rumor of the Century

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: GUEST,Rog Peek
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 09:32 AM

New Labour!

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: kendall
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 09:13 AM

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Boy, are we in trouble... This woman is frightening. Take special note of the last paragraph. Is she really this whacked out?

         Nancy Pelosi condemned the new record highs of the stock market as "just another example of Bush policies helping the rich get richer".    "First Bush cut taxes for the rich and the economy has rebounded with new record low unemployment rates, which only means wealthy employers are getting even wealthier at the expense of the underpaid working class".

      She went on to say "Despite the billions of dollars being spent in Iraq our economy is still strong and government tax revenues are at all time highs. What this really means is that business is exploiting the war effort and working Americans, just to put money in their own pockets".

      When questioned about recent stock market highs she responded "Only the rich benefit from these record highs. Working Americans, welfare recipients, the unemployed and minorities are not sharing in these obscene record highs". There is no question these windfall profits and income created by the Bush administration need to be taxed at 100% rate and those dollars redistributed to the poor and working class". Profits from the stock market do not reward the hard work of our working class who, by their hard work, are responsible for generating these corporate profits that create stock market profits for the rich. We in congress will need to address this issue to either tax these profits or to control the stock market to prevent this unearned income t o flow to the rich."

       When asked about the fact that over 80% of all Americans have investments in mutual funds, retirement funds, 401Ks, and the stock market she replied "That may be true, but probably only 5% account for 90% of all these investment dollars. That's just more "trickle down" economics claiming that if a corporation is successful that everyone from the CEO to the floor sweeper benefit from higher wages and job security which is ridiculous". "How much of this 'trickle down' ever gets to the unemployed and minorities in our county? None, and that's the tragedy of these stock market highs."

       "We democrats are going to address this issue after the election when we take control of the congress. We will return to the 60% to 80% tax rates on the rich and we will be able to take at least 30% of all current lower income tax payers off the rolls and increase government income substantially." We need to work toward the goal of equalizing income in our country and at the same time limiting the amount the rich can invest."

       When asked how these new tax dollars would be spent, she replied :   "We need to raise the standard of living of our poor, unemployed and minorities. For example, we have an estimated 12 million illegal immigrants in our country who need our help along with millions of unemployed minorities. Stock market windfall profits taxes could go a long ways to guarantee these people the standard of living they would like to have as 'Americans'."      

       Send it on to your brilliant friends. I just did

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: kendall
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 08:41 AM

Doug, one thing I have against the conservatives is all those fibs they make up and spread around like they were gospel. You mentioned one. Al Gore never said he invented the internet. What he did say was that he had been instrumental in developing it for government use. Big difference.
Now, They are spreading all out lies about liberals. I get them all the time, not a word of truth in them. For instance, one claims that Nancy Pelosi has a plan to take away windfall profits with a big tax.
They claimed that the Cinton gang vandalized all the computers before they left Washington. Again, not a word of truth.
Bill O'Reilly was one of the spreaders of this gem, and when the truth came out, he refused to apologize.
Today, a conservative is someone who will say ANYTHING to keep a democrat out of office, and if that democrat happens to be a woman, God help her.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 07:04 PM

John, are you the seventh son of a seventh son? That would explain it.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 07:01 PM

BTW, this was originally posted before the BS/nonBS division was instituted- would a clone kindly move it below?

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: bobad
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 06:42 PM

A conservative estimate would be - not very often.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: John Hardly
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 06:27 PM

cool. How often do you score the 100th post on a seven year old thread?

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 06:22 PM

And it all depends on how things are where and when you are. A Cuban conservative today would be pro-Castro.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 05:47 PM

I would define conservative as: having a fondness for established things and a resistance to innovation; cautious; traditional; old-fashioned; wanting to keep things "the way they used to be".

That's what the word actually means, aside from the political labelling that goes on about it all the time.

Subject: Is Dubya 'conservative'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 04:31 PM

7 October 2007
"Paul Krugman writes that contrary to those who would say that Bush strayed from right-wing principles, he is in fact a true Conservative.

* For example, people claim to be shocked that Mr. Bush cut taxes while waging an expensive war. But Ronald Reagan also cut taxes while embarking on a huge military buildup.

* People claim to be shocked by Mr. Bush's general fiscal irresponsibility. But conservative intellectuals, by their own account, abandoned fiscal responsibility 30 years ago.

* People claim to be shocked by the way the Bush administration outsourced key government functions to private contractors... Yet back in 1993, Jonathan Cohn...explained that "under Reagan and Bush, the ranks of public officials necessary to supervise contractors have been so thinned that the putative gains of contracting have evaporated."

* People claim to be shocked by the Bush administration's general incompetence. But disinterest in good government has long been a principle of modern conservatism. In The Conscience of a Conservative,, Barry Goldwater wrote that "I have little interest in streamlining government or making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size."

* People claimed to be shocked at the Bush Justice Department, making a mockery of the Constitution, issued a secret opinion authorizing torture despite instructions by Congress and the Courts that the practice should stop." But:

* People claim to be shocked at the Bush adminisration's efforts to disenfranchise minority groups..." But:

* People claim to be shocked at the Bush administratoin's attempts- which for a time were all too successful - to intimidate the press..." But:

* People claim to be shocked at the Bush administration's attempts to equate dissent with treason." But:

* Above all, people claim to be shocked by the Bush administration's authoritarianism, its disdain for te rule of law." But:

"Now as they survey the wreckage of their cause, conservatives may aks themselves: "Well, how did we get here" They may tell themselves: "This is not my beautiful Right." They may ask themselves: "My God, what have we done?"

"But their movement is the same as it ever was. And Bush is movement conservatism's true, loyal heir."

Bush, the Standard Bearer

(By the way, I miss Rick. Nothing new here)

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: mjm
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 09:40 PM

Kendall, was that question directed to me? The last time I voted in a presidental election, was when Ross P. was running against you-know-who. (I voted for Ross) It was also the first time had ever voted. Shame shame on me. Alas, my worst fear was to have "Them" get my number, so to speak, and then be called for jury duty. That's how it works, here in Connecticut. Well it happened, and I suspect that my employer paid a hansome amount to get me out of that jar of pickles. It won't happen again, because in this life, I will not stand in judgement of another human being. That's that.

Peace, m

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Ditchdweller
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 12:37 PM

Well the Bloody line breakes were there when I posted it!!!! Sapper

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 05:14 PM

My enemy's enemy must be my friend,
We've made that same mistake time and again.
And each time we make it, we learn pretty soon,
When you sup with the Devil, you need a long spoon.
And when you're done with your words of betrayal and cant,
When the pacifist says "Peace", who stops the Tyrant?

Well, that looks better with the lne breaks - I thought for a moment you were being rude to me friend Sapper! Not that I'd be with you on the last too lines, but that's another discussion. Siding with Stalin or Pinochet, for example, aren't exactly pacifist attitudes.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Ditchdweller
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 03:37 PM

To McGrath of Harlow; My enemy's enemy must be my friend, We've made that same mistake time and again. And each time we make it, we learn pretty soon, When you sup with the Devil, you need a long spoon.

And when you're done with your words of betrayal and cant, When the pacifist says "Peace", who stops the Tyrant?

Sapper

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: JedMarum
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 11:15 AM

"... and when you go carryin' pictures of Chairman Mao
you ain;t gunna make it with anyone, anyhow ..."

Mary, agreed! It seems John Lennon was not amused by the Chairman either.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: GUEST,mary g
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 11:33 PM

someone wanted to know if anyone over the age of 48 was not taking in by Mao's stuff..

me and most of my friends.

mg

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 08:45 AM

But Radical doesn't just mean left Radical, InOBU - you can have Radicals at any point on the political spectrum, insofar as there is a spectrum (it's a tempting and often useful metaphor, but it is just a metaphor). Nazism can in some ways be seen not so much as rightwing extremism, but as extreme Radicalism of the centre.

A Radical solution to a problem is to pull things up from the roots, and start all over again. There are times when that's what you need to do - but the crucial thing is knowing what kind of plants you want to plant when you've pulled up the ones that have grown wrong. Some people want top plant very nasty plants indeed.

Sapper 82's point about political misjudgements is valid, but applies across the board. The basic corrupting factor is the old saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". If you were in a barroom fight there might be some validity to that, but it is so dangerous. It's why you had people who can be reasonably described as "conservative" or for that matter "liberal" who in their time supported, encouraged and financed the most disgusting regimes, like that of Pinochet or even Hitler.

So far as the left is concerned, it is easy to see how, when you are engaged in a fight against people close at hand whom you can see to be vicious and dangerous, youn can be tempted to fool yourself that the people far away who send you words of encouragement, or who are also engaged in some kind of struggle against the same enemies are better than they really are.

Sometimes you have to take help from where you can get it - but you can never afford to trust people just because they help you. Which is very sad.

(And Brendy, yes there was a plane crash on the outskirts of Harlow a couple of days back, two light aeroplanes using a local airfield collided, and the people on board were killed. But all well away from me.)

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: InOBU
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 08:16 AM

Shades of red,
My old friend Bertel Olman used to define radical marxist and liberal in the following way... most likely still does, I should drop in on him...
Liberal... has noticed one or two social problems, like save the whales, which if done, evil would be erradicated and the world perfect.
The radical knows that if you took all the liberal observations and rants and lumped them together, you would have a pretty good polical plan and the problem underlieing all these problems is something or other to do with the evils of capitolism.
The marxist knows the other two are generally right, but has the intelectual tools to understand why they are right and that we will likely never live in a Eutopia, but just envent better problems.
Best to all
Larry

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 08:08 AM

I dont understand how you can vote for the "best candidate" or for whatever is best for the country/people, without knowing anything about politics?

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: GUEST, No.3
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 08:13 PM

We will soon put an end to that when we get in power!

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: mjm
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:03 PM

Nothing to add, folks, I'm socially and politically unaware. But I wanted to cause this thread back up to the surface. I told a friend abouth it and when he arrives, I'd like it to be readily visable. My directions here were sloopy but this one in particular has some really good contents. It amazes me how intelligent and funny some people can be all in the same thought pattern. Wow. m

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:38 AM

sound like a good plan, Amergin.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Amergin
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 07:22 PM

All I know is that I'm slightly in the red. Have no clue what conservative and liberal mean. I just vote for whoever and whatever I beleive is good for the people. It doesn't mean I'm right, though. Blessed be.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: GUEST,dwditty
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 07:00 PM

I grew up in a town where Kurt Vonnegut described the Democratic poll watchers and Republican poll watchers as both being Republicans. Nonetheless, a "conservative" represented everything that I rebelled against - most of which I am now. It's amazing what 30 or 40 years can do to wear a person down.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 06:35 PM

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Brendy
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 03:57 PM

The American term 'liberal', I have difficulty in grasping.
Where I come from, Conservative is right wing - bordering at times on the fascist. Left wing/socialist is more or less always what it has been, and Liberals don't really know what they are, but like to think they do.

B.

BTW Was there a plane crash round your way, Kevin?

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Ditchdweller
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 08:23 AM

Just a couple of penceworth from this side of the big pond. Conservative = right wing and Liberal = left. OK I know it is a bit simplistic, but with this in mind, let us look back 30 years. At this time the radical left had a great leader and master helmsman in the form of Mao Tse Tung, who at the time was leading the Cultural Revolution. How many people of my age, 48, and older, can truthfully state that they were not taken in by the propaganda of Mao's regime? How many of those who did accept the Maoist propaganda then feel shame at being so misled? Particularly in the light of the books "Life and Death in Shanghai" by Nien Chen and "Wild Swans" by Jung Chang. EXACTLY the same mistakes were made by the left in both the UK and the US during the thirties with Stalin. Also, in this country during the thirties, there was a movement towards disarmament that was led by the left DESPITE the obvious trouble brewing in Germany at the time. Mistakes like this are what makes me doubt the judgement of those on the left of the political spectrum. Sapper

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 02:32 AM

To take Ickle Dorrit's point. Our Conservative, leader of the oppositions latest appeal to the 'mean spirited'. Inflaming a difficult situation for votes and political gain, by stating that all political asylum seekers be 'locked-up' pending rewiew of their claim.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: DougR
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 12:24 AM

I think it would be a bit interesting to peruse this thread and see who did the most bashing of the other: Conservatives of Liberals, or Liberals of Conservatives. Without doing so, I'd bet a nickel the Liberals would win.

DougR

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 06:57 PM

conservatives are people who want to defend the right of the individual unless they are asylum seekers in which case they want to bang them up in jail.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 04:41 PM

BaldEagle - "McGrath, you're illiberal! Can't we disagree on some political aspects without your calling me your enemy? Do you wish to rephrase your previous entry?"

Since I don't want to kill you or lock you up if we disagree, that means I'm reasonably liberal on the definition I gave. Doesn't mean you might not be my enemy. "Love your enemy" implies you've got to have a few enemies in the first place. Just that you don't need to hate them, even when you might be doing your level best to defeat them.

I take it that you're probably a radical on some of the points where I'm a conservative, which was where I used the word "enemy".

I suppose I could have said "adversary", on the lines of the old story about the new member of parliament referring to the people on the other side as "the enemy". "No" says the oldere MP - "they are your adversaries - your enemies are on this side, behind you." But then, on some of the issues I mentioned, the people I'd be against are "on my side", so the term "enemy" seems more appropriate. Anyway it's a word I prefer. Can you imagine Jesus saying "love your adversaries" - doesn't have the right ring to it.

But anyway the point I was making was that the terms "conservative" and "radical" are relative and partial. We are all mixture of the two things, depending on where we live, and when we live, and all minds of other things. (And my other point was that when people use "liberal" as if it was the opposite of "conservative" they are debasing the language. So are people (and there are a lot of them round the world, if not in America) who use it as if it was the opposite of "radical".

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 04:31 PM

Great movie isn't it Kendall? The camp music scene mentioned above was well done, but the entire movie is quite compelling. We have an unfortunate tendency nowadays to learn pseudo-history through the movies, but "Matewan" stands out in its accuracy of portraying the times that did exist and the characters, though composite and fictionalized, are very real.

Spaw

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: kendall
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 04:22 PM

That movie "Matewan" shows one of the reasons I'm a Democrat. An old friend who lives in West (by god) Virginia says thats just how it was.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: kendall
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 04:19 PM

I wouldn't say she is gorgeous, but, I wouldn't kick her out of my bed. I did exagerate some, never hears anyone say they wanted to "hang" Clinton...apparently, he already is.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 04:10 PM

Oh, great, another Holywood actor for Prez....sure can pick 'em, NOT!

Rick! I am going to seriously have to question your taste in women! Monica...gorgeous??? Didja have on them funny glasses, again!?**BG**

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: DougR
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 12:31 PM

Naw, Kendall, he was probably just an NRA member.

First I've heard that somebody wanted to hang Clinton, though.

DougR

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 12:19 PM

Nah, Kendall. Probably one of the one's who was jealous of Bubba being a babe magnet. By the way..after 20 serious posts, I'm allowing myself a "trivial thread creep moment". I thought Monica was gorgeous...not bright, but gorgeous. I'll go away now.

Rick

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: kendall
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 11:00 AM

I saw a bumper sticker today that said "CHARLSTON HESTON IS MY PRESIDENT." I wonder if this guy is one of those who wanted to hang Clinton for lying?

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: sophocleese
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 09:45 AM

The example that Ontario is giving to world at the moment shows conservative = bully. A conservative is someone who believes that their right to swing their arms stops at your nose, unless they didn't notice you standing there in which case, if you get hit, it was your fault for not ducking, but why the hell should they have to be the ones looking where their arms are going? If everybody only worked hard, the same way they did (we had it tough, there were days when our incompetent day care providers didn't stop us from pouring blue paint on the small kid in class and then blamed US for the mess and made us apologize to the little crybaby) we would all be able to swing our arms with complete freedom and those that get hit are wimps, failures and burdens on society.

To be fair there are many people who used to vote conservative in this province that changed allegiance directly because of Mike Harris and his cronies. Their brand of conservatism was incompatible with his tactics and substitution of surface charm and cunning for social intelligence and responsibility.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 09:42 AM

What frightens me is not that such a thoughtful and literate a group of human beans as this can't agree on clear definitions of these terms, as much as by the fact that so many people will cast their vote (and their lot) without thinking twice for or against people simply because they have one of these labels plastered to them by friends and/or foes.

Me? Like the late great Jimmie Rodgers "I wear my name (and political affiliation) on the tail of my shirt. . ."

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 09:28 AM

Never having to say you are sorry?

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Ringer
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 05:53 AM

McGrath, you're illiberal! Can't we disagree on some political aspects without your calling me your enemy? Do you wish to rephrase your previous entry?

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: DougR
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 11:15 PM

Thanks, Guest No 2, some levity in this thread was about due!

DougR

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: GUEST, No 2
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 09:44 PM

C'mon, c'mon.
We've had 'Court T.V., we've had real life car chases and gun battles on prime time news.

When are we going to see on-line executions?

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: GUEST, No 2
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 09:38 PM

C'mon, we've had 'Court T.V., we've had real life car chases on prime time news.

When are we going to see on-line executions?

Guest No 2.

Not conservative at all, but giving you an insight into the future with them.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 07:13 PM

Probably Jed, because the words have no meaning anymore except to make some political point as is the wont of our system. Within that system, we have established methodology for this particular means of government and it no longer makes a difference, except to somehow position oneself for acceptability by others.

We can talk and have opinions on a variety of issues and not follow what would be the "logical" assumptive order since each of us has had our experiences colored by the times and circumstances in which we have lived. I am always more troubled by the talk from everyone about freedoms as though they are the sole province of consevatives or liberals, Republicans or Democrats. The fact that we have continually given up freedom to governments or companies is proof that though we may talk a good line, "I'll shave my head for good health care." That is to say, what are we willing to give up to improve the quality of our individual lives? And are we all willing to play? Someone mentioned the "anarchy no-no." My gawd how awful that would be. Why someone could come along and take your stuff just because you didn't want to do it their way and wanted your way instead. 'Course that's pretty much what the IRS does now. Gee........

Responsibility is the key word that must accompany freedom and people of both sides and the middle of the political spectrum are loathe attach it. Without it "freedoms" are simply words without meaning. And frankly, I would submit that true freedom scares the hell out of us. But we love to think about it in personal terms. Once again I quote this.....by Jacques Ellul:

"The people will fancy an appearance of freedom. Illusion will be their native land."

Spaw

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Mbo
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 07:12 PM

"I'm Conservative with a budget, Liberal with a meal..."

--Mbo

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 07:04 PM

I wished I lived in a world where I could be a conservative, with a status quo which I wanted to defend.

There's always going to be changes coming along, and a lot of them are for the worse, and fighting change is technically a conservative thing to do. So, where I live, anyone who tries to bring back Capital Punishment, or make it legal to own handguns, or give refugees food vouchers instead of money, or privatise the health service, or break up the London Tube system, or change the side of the road we drive on, is my enemy.

On the other hand there are a whole lot of changes I would support - I'd like to see fox-hunting outlawed, I'd like to see a maximum wage at a fairly low level, I'd like to see an end to the disastrous "war against drugs", I'd like to see a 15 mph speed limit in towns (for people on bikes and skates as well), the introduction of a Basic Income, the break-up of the United Kingdom...

And all those would mark me as Radical.

And there are some things where I suppose my views are liberal, which means saying there are two sides the question. (For example, abortion, where I do not think there is any moral "right to choose" - but that attempts by the authorities to penalise women who do choose to have abortions would be both wrong and ineffective.)

But I can't understand this weird (sorry) American terminology in which "liberal" is used to mean holding leftwing views (which in many countries would count as fairly rightwing). Being "liberal" surely just means that you don't think your opponents should be thrown in jail or shot? Which means most (unfortunately not all) Americans are "liberal", at least within America itself.

The point I'm making is that asking whether someone is conservative or radical is like asking whether they are big or small - it depends whether you are comparing them with a mouse or an elephant.

But then I suppose it's all just arbitrary terminology when you get down to it. In Russia these days "Liberal Democrat" is the title of a fascist party, and Communists are routinely described as "Conservatives". And a Republican means something rather different in Derry and in Dixie.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 07:00 PM

Rick said he is all over the map. I want to see a song come of this. The GPS (Global Positioning System) for Politics..."you can have your very own, no longer depending on which way the wind blows to tell you which side of the fence you straddle!"**BG**

Oh, and belly up, me boyos! Next round is on me!

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: DougR
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 06:56 PM

Don't know Jed! Just don't know. I sure look forward to meeting you on May 21 at the Fiddler, though.

You sound a bit more conservative to me than liberal but there are both kinds in both parties, you know.

DougR

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: JedMarum
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 06:27 PM

interesting how this thread has accumlated so many thoughts so quickly ... all I can say for sure is; ISSUES DON"T DEFINE US!

DougR defines himself as a conservative, and seems to believe very much as I do on the issues he listed (but I am not a member of the Republican party)... BillD defines himself as a Liberal, and seems to believe very much as I do on the issues he listed (but we may differ on gun control. If the labels we apply to ourselves and others are appropriate; how is this so?

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Gary T
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 06:18 PM

Doug and kat, I'll drink to it also. I believe the U.S. is most accurately described as a democratic republic, i.e. we vote for our representatives.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: DougR
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 06:05 PM

I'll drink to that, kat! Course I'll drink to just about anything. :>)

Dougr

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 05:51 PM

LOL! Too right ya are, DougeR! Thank yew, thank yew veddy much, darlin', for pointing that out! I think I am about spent on this one, too, but I must congratulate us all for once again for having a lively, respectful discussion of hard issues.

Probably should have said this at the first and been done with it:

I think defining conservative or liberal is like defining folk music...we will never, ever come down to a definitve conclusion of what they mean. I always say it takes two wings to fly, so left and right, let's keep it in balance!*BG*

luvyakat

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: DougR
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 05:36 PM

My dear kat: And I do mean "dear!" We have been friends for a long time and will continue to be.

You make some good points and I won't attempt to refute those that I might not agree with. I've pretty much had my say on this subject. But, I must correct you (lovingly) on one point. We do not live in a democracy, the United States is a republic, not a democracy. They are similar, but still different. When we pledge allegiance to the United States of America, we pledge it to the "Republic for which we stand," not the Democracy for which we stand. **BG** back atcha!

DougR

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 05:11 PM

DougeR, I am sorry, I thought I was careful in stressing the "in general". I by no means assume anything about all Republicans OR Democrats! My grandmother was the type of GOP member you describe yourself to be. I agree with BlueJay, though, the Grand Old Party has been usurped and "ain't what she used ta be".

If one listens to the most vocal of the party, one would never believe it to be the party of individual rights and, you are right, it has a lot to do with the abortion issue being used as a political hot potato, as well as prayer in schools, etc. IN GENERAL, it seems to me, the GOP is bent on telling everyone they will adhere to a strict paternalistic, and conservative Christain way of living, with certain freedoms, i.e. owning guns and, limited or no freedom in other areas, i.e. women's right to choice; freedom FROM religion as BillD. mentioned.

I think you and I discussed choice and gay rights a ways back and I knew you were supportive. I am glad you mentioned the Log Cabin Republicans. I have had an interest in them, mostly in a study of how they reconcile the conflicts, for years and, in fact, read a book written by one of them back in the early 80's. I still do not understand how someone can be gay and belong to a party which is known IN GENERAL for being opposed to their way of living; the same way I do not understand a woman choosing to live her life in a paternalistic church way, however I respect their right to and I mean no offense to anyone here at the Mudcat.

Fingers can be pointed at presidents and congress and their affiliated parties. I am more interested in the trenches: how has work-to-welfare lowered the numbers, yet left more children living in poverty; why doesn't our country recognise being a mother as a job and a necessity for the mental/emotional/physical wellbeing of children from birth through school; how is it that two parents have no choice but to work these days to get by; etc., etc. ad nauseum....

I say I am a liberal, even flaming (well the redhair has faded a little, but the flame still burns inside!), but really I find very few politicians whom I believe to be sincere and truly interested in The People. I get extrememly frustrated at people who bytch about this, though, yet continue to not vote. The precentage of people who do NOT vote is shameful and we only get what a small majority wants in any election because of it. If all Americans would dump the apathy/victim thing, realise that we do live in a great democracy and that it IS no ordinary, run-of-the-mill thing, this right to vote as we see fit, in fact it is something we should honour and cherish and actively participate in every chance we get because there are so many in the world who cannot enjoy such freedom and, vote we might actually give a third or fourth or even fifth party a real chance. Until then, I believe we are stuck with choosing between the best of the worst.

My granmda was one of the first to embrace new technology, the phone, refrigerator, etc., but that is not the kind of change I meant. I am sorry if that was not clear. I meant more along the lines of actual ways we live our lives from an ideological standpoint. In my opinion ONLY, I believe many Republicans are fearful of chnage which might free the oppressed, or even the suppressed from their control, be it their spouses, children, employees, employers, other classes, races, religions, etc.

I don't know if any of this is coming out right or not. For me, from what I read, hear, and see, it comes down to the GOP seems to be the hard-assed macho-person (male or female) of the family who believes you should pick the kid up, throw them in the deep end, and let them sink or swim, no matter what concerning advantages or disadvantages. On the other hand, again, from my perspective ONLY, it seems the Democrats are more like the softer fmaily member who believes everyone deserves at least one fair chance and will help people stick their toes in, wade a bit, get used to the water, then teach them to swim, without so much trauma as the other way.

Opinionatedly Yours**BG**,

kat

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: DougR
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 04:57 PM

Big business seems to be the root of America's problems if one were to embrace the beliefs of a lot of folks contributing to this thread (and "fat cats" too of course). So, why don't we abolish big business? Of course if we did, we might have a problem supplying the demand for a few things, like: electricity, automobiles, food (most farms are owned by big businesses now), clothing, oil, computers and software, and on and on. We could look to our friendly neighbors to supply us with all of those things, of course but that would cost a lot of money. We won't have any money because we won't have any jobs. Maybe the government could supply us with it. Nope, we don't earn any money so there are no taxes to support a government. It's a puzzelment. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 04:52 PM

Hi Wesley. Actually I can't see why even an arch-conservative would have any trouble with folk music. You're quoting from Woody's "This Land..." which is hardly a folk song. I can see why they'd be pretty pissed at some of the modern composed songs of the sixties, but the vast majority of folk music is hardly political...lotsa murders, sinking ships, deer shooting, bad man ballads, river and lake songs etc.

Hi Doug. I don't! I don't! Kat's politics and mine are probably fairly far apart, although we agree on some issues. I said she had a "valid point" but I certainly don't think it's true in all cases. Seriously, I try to make up my mind on a "case by case" basis.

Rick

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Wesley S
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 04:18 PM

Then I'm on a non-fat diet

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 04:10 PM

Conservatives are the 'cream' of society, so called because they are rich, thick and always seem to rise to the top.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: BlueJay
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 03:58 PM

Rick R- I agree with you in substance but it seems to be the Conservative movement who are against gay marriages, abortion, and who are always hounding libraries to throw out "Catcher in the Rye". I think this is because the Republican Party has been usurped by the Christian Right and the NRA. If these external PAC's were absent, I might be more of a conservative. One more thing: It wouldn't surprise me if it is the Republicans who finally manage to TAX the internet. Wait and see. BlueJay

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: DougR
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 03:41 PM

Kat! Rick! Why do you assume that ALL Conservatives are opposed to "right to choose"? That ALL Conservatives are opposed to same sex marriages? That simply isn't so! I wish the abortion issue had never gotten into politics in the first place. It doesn't belong there! I believe strongly in a woman's right to choose. Also, I have no objection at all to same sex marriages! Sounds trite to say it, but some of my best friends are Gay and most of them have committed partners. Ever heard of the "Log Cabin" Republians folks? I'll betcha even some of them are Conservatives.

And Kat, I disagree with you when you say Conservatives fear losing control, I think what they fear is losing liberties. After all, the United States Congress was controlled for forty years by Democrats (most of them Liberals). Now THAT's control.

I won't even comment on those remarks some folks made about Conservatives fearing change or being opposed to change. Or wanting to "keep things just as they are." Most Conservatives I know gave up horseback riding to get from one place to another several decades ago, they have refrigerators instead of ice boxes, their homes and cars are air conditioned, they use computers, they rarely eat uncooked food, they sleep indoors, etc., etc. etc. That definition is so simplistic it just boggles my mind. Of course one of our guys DIDN'T invent the Internet, though, that's true. **BG**

One more comment and I'll get off my soap box. The remarks I have made are limited to the United States as it relates to politics. I have no eartly idea what the definition of Liberal and Conservative might be in other countries.

DougR

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Ditchdweller
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 03:29 PM

Hey Kendall, I do not know about the shysters you elect on your side of the big pond, but looking at the shower of s*** on both benches of the House of Commons, what the hell is wrong with being a monarchist? Sapper

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: BlueJay
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 03:16 PM

Wesley- I appreciate your humor, and agree with you in part. But this has all been covered on the "conservative folk song" thread. I don't think I got that title right. I tend toward liberalism in most things, and am fiercely liberal in others. Yet I have flaming conservative friends who are damn fine musicians, we can get together and play my songs or their songs, it doesn't really matter. Politics is politics, and music is music, mostly I don't think you should take it all too personally. I would have no problem playing "Okie from Muskogee" or "Ballad of the Green Berets" as long as I had someone good to play it with. It really shouldn't be any different than playing "Moon River". (How about that as a double-time Dobro piece)?

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: kendall
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 03:06 PM

You are right..congress went along with the Actor because they lacked the guts to oppose him. Thanks to his one liners and professional bullshit, too many voters swallowed what he was saying and the poloticians knew it. Now, I'd still like to know what rights we have lost under the liberals?? Still have seen no specifics.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 03:05 PM

EITHER party tends to take credit for anything good that comes out in the news while they are in power, while blaming bad news on the other party...the question of who got us into or out of, debt, is seldom examined from a neutral position. I suspect that many of the fiscal trends operate partially independant of any one party or individual....like the weather, there are just too many factors to consider to place blame easily.

(oohh, look..a 'wishy-washy' viewpoint! he isn't willing to make sweeping accusations like a true _______ (fill in the blanks)*grin*

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Wesley S
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 02:57 PM

I haven't been able to figure out what conservative fans of folk music listen to.

This land is my land, I'll stripmine it for a profit

Then I'll screw all the workers that used to live on it

Then deny them insurance because they're part time workers

This land is owned by me not thee.

Excuse the scarcasm but I'm not sure why the conservatives would want to listen to folk music. Is it the right wings long history of working for the rights of the downtrodden ? Their struggle to win voting rights for the blues singers we listen to ? Or their well known support of the arts? I'm sure I'm way off base with my opinions - someone please straighten me out. I'm willing to listen.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: DougR
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 02:52 PM

Seems I struck a chord (so to speak) with Kendell, and some others. Don't know how old you folks are; I'm 70, so I've been to a few goat ropin's and more than an axel greasing away from home. Was raised in a family that was politically Democrats (USoA) and I'm certainly not rich. I don't know why, but the definition of "extremism" such as that noted by Kendell in his thread is always equated with Conservatives. There are, I assume, no "extreme" Liberals. Never-the-less, I respect the views that are different than mine (my 74 year old brother is a flaming Liberal and I love him dearly we just don't talk politics). One thing to keep in mind, though and I'm sure everone in the U.S. is aware of this, the President, regardless of political party, can do nothing without a Congress to support and agree with his/her (not yet but soon) policies. And it wasn't a Republican controlled Congress that got this country so deep in debt. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 02:13 PM

To me, the important divisions between people are between those who want fair & equal opportunity and freedom to THINK as they please....and those who want to restrict rights of others and FORCE or INTIMIDATE others to do it 'their' way...I guess I am sort of a liberal with funny digressions...(freedom of religion should mean the right to go to any church of their choosing, etc...NOT the right to insert their beliefs into public gatherings, schools, political campaigns, "pledges of allegience", etc.)

**Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion for those who so choose**

part of the definition problem is that you sometimes find yourself holding positions similar to people you don't really like or respect...and then you realize...THEY hold the position for the 'wrong reason'...and this is where I part company from many conservatives. I have VERY strong beliefs about things like population control, the death penalty, government meddling in peoples lives, education, immigration, race relations...etc. But I seem to approach these issues from a 'liberal' viewpoint, whis to me is sort of a "greatest good for the greatest number" attitude...whereas I see MANY 'conservatives' reaching their conclusions from an attitude that smells to me of "self interest" and the "Golden Rule"..(you know, "them that has the gold, makes the rules").

But in the long run, a lot of it boils down to the old saw, "It all depends on whose ox is being gored"

In Nietzsche's "Also Sprach Zarathustra", he has on old woman saying-"Of course it was a just war, my son died in it"......these days, it could also be "Of course it was a just war, I made a LOT of money from it."

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 02:02 PM

Bald Eagle,(of course I understand the upper case at the beginning of a sentence. I only *harp* about the lower case in deference to the other "Kat")

Sorry for the typo. The sentence you ask about should have read: I believe anything which becomes a cause or political movement for conservatives is generally driven by fear for the personal status quo/self.

Just my opinion/belief; feel free to disagree, of course.

kat

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Ringer
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 01:52 PM

A conservative is someone who believes in small government and that the rights of the individual take precedence over the rights of the state. All government restricts my individual freedoms and as such is a Bad Thing. Nevertheless, anarchy is a Worse Thing, so some government is necessary, but it should be no part of government to run coal-mines or car-factories or mail-services, etc etc etc.

Kat (the capital-K marks the start of a new sentence: I hope you'll understand), what does this mean- "I believe anything which because a cause or political movement for conservatives is generally driven by fear for the personal status quo/self."? I think that, if I understood it, I wouldn't agree.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 01:38 PM

Another thought or two on this subject:

People like to generalize by saying that conservatives are primarily motivated by self-interest, whereas liberals are more likely to consider the interests of others as well. I like to think that we need to see that as we populate more and more of this world, self-interest and the common-good become more and more entwined. Protecting the rights of people who have different sexual preferences than our own should help to bolster our own rights to make choices. But that isn't always true. If I own a two-flat and choose not to rent the upstairs to a gay couple, I do not have that right under the law. If this a good thing or not? Am I trying to protect my children from a life-style of which I don't approve or am I clinging to an outmoded standard of morality that no longer applies in this world? Who makes the call?

In the movie "Defending Your Life", Albert Brooks makes an interesting case about the purpose of life in this realm. As I understand it, the goal is to overcome our fear and to trust in love. That is how you move on. That is also the progression in the Christian Bible - old testament God = Fear and new testament God = love.

I like the idea that letting go of fear benefits us, yet I teach my children to be afraid of strangers, to not jump off tall things, to slow down etc. So obviously there is fear that serves a purpose and simplistic answers won't fit.

To tie this ramble back to our original discussion, are you a conservative out of the fear of change, or for the love of the world as it is? Are you a liberal out of the love for your fellowman or the fear of losing your rights and freedoms? Are you a good witch or a bad witch?

There are good and bad reasons to try to maintain the status quo, just as there are good and bad reasons for advocating change. And the results or our actions rarely get us 100% of what we wanted, needed or anticipated. So I will apply what I know to the choice at hand and hope for the best. And today you might call me a conservative SOB and tomorrow a Liberal navel-gazer. But please don't call me inconsistent - maybe you just aren't seeing the logic that is at work.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: BlueJay
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 01:01 PM

Aye, Dave. A third party, (or fourth or fifth), might shake things up a bit. Unfortunately, in the US, the cards are stacked against that happening. Even the press doesn't give the smaller parties a fair shake. Things seem stacked to favor the status quo- Democrat vs Republican in most elections. Having watched years of Democratic control followed by years of Republican control, (of Congress), they all pretty much sicken me. Like so many others responding to this thread, I'm politically all over the map. I don't think the Feds should tell us how to run our state. Likewise, I don't think the state should involve itself in local issues, but this is what our Republican majority legislature and Rpublican Governor do over and over: from concealed weopons to the Ten Commandments in the classroom. Now talk about status quo: All State owned buildings in the State are smoke free. Except for the Colorado Capitol Building, which the Legislature recently exempted, so they can puff away while arguing what to do about the Columbine High School Massacre. The Best they've come up with so far is to put The Ten Commandments in every classroom in the State!. (Our State Attorney General has stated that bill doesn't stand a chance, constitutionally, should the Governor actually sign it). For the time being, I'll vote Democratic, as overall I sympathize with their platform a little bit more. But if the playing field is ever REALLY levelled for other parties, I just might defect. The Reform Party just doesn't do it for me right now. Thanks, BlueJay.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: ceitagh
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 12:11 PM

This is a really interesting discussion. I guess I'd be labeled 'conservative' by anyone who wanted to bother labelling me. I don't think of myself that way. In one of my classes we answered a group of questions that were supposed to place us on the political spectrum somewhere...i ended up smack dab in the middle- a bit to the left, actually. This surprised my friends a bit, who had assumed I'd be somewhere in the far right because of my 'religiousity'. If it weren't for the moral/social issues, i'd probably join the NDP.

My best attempt at labelling myself would be to call myself a semi-socialist, pro-gun control, anti-big business, pro-community, pro-life, anti-discrimination, pro-welfare (within limits), anti-death penalty (i can't understand anyone who doesn't see all the life issues as being equally important), pro more support for families, feminist (in the style of the suffragettes) who would like to see more local control in government, less war, no discrimination between races (in all ways...hiring quotas strike me as being just one more way to create friction between peoples) and more consideration between varying ideologies on a purely human level. I guess I just liking siding with the 'little guy'. :-)

In my experience (and apparently in most of yours) there's a real problem with the current left-right image of politics. We are all more 3D than that narrow-visioned line.

Ceitagh

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 11:46 AM

I suppose I'm considered Conservative, but like Winston Churchill would support Labour/Liberalism under certain circumstances. The strange thing is people complain but fail to vote; and some complain but re-elect the very same politicians they are disgusted with. Better the devil you know than the devil you dont know? I dont like labels, one should vote for the politician who best serves your interests.. If you cannot find one, start a new party. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 11:33 AM

Kat wrote:

"Yes, I know this may sound simplistic: plenty of people whom I consider to be conservatives work together to ensure each other's rights. An example of what I am trying to say is there are many liberals who would work to ensure gay and lesbians may marry whomever they wish, regardless of thier own sexual preference, so that, if heterosexual, they are campaigning in a true alruistic sense. As a contrast to that, I would opine conservatives who campaign to limit a woman's right to choose, are motivated by their own control over someone else, reagrdless of their gender."

I think that's a valid point Kat,(ie: you'll get flack) and puts in a simple way what I might have taken 3 awkward paragraphs to say.

The whole "hot button" thing is certainly connected to where you live. In Ontario, prayer in schools, gun registration, fetal termination, etc. are "mildly warm" buttons at best. In Alberta....hot, hot, hot. The "hottest button" here is "work for welfare" with "the young offenders act" a close second. Quebec seperation which was THE ISSUE a couple of years ago is practically non-existant now.

Nice to know that Mudcat can still at times be more informative than the morning papers.

Rick

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Gary T
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 11:30 AM

Amidst the tug-of-war among various viewpoints, society/government/culture/what-have-you (or any portion of these) will change over time. In retrospect, this necessary/inevitable change is deemed middle-of-the-road (moderate). Those who want to halt this change are deemed conservative (conserving the status quo). Those who want to accelerate change proportionally to how conservatives want to retard it are deemed liberal. Those who want to not just stop the "normal" change but reverse its direction are considered reactionary, and those who want to accelerate the change proportional to that (i.e., a lot) are considered radical. While some are on either the right (conservative/reactionary) or on the left (liberal/radical) side on most or all issues, I wouldn't be surprised to find that most people are on the right on some issues while on the left side on others.

Naturally, the liberals feel they are advocating change for the better, and that it's overdue. Conservatives feel that the change is for the worse, and that it's premature. Moderates feel that things are progressing at an acceptable pace.

I see myself as conservative on gun control (no need for more laws), moderate on environmental concerns (don't want to stop or go back but also don't want to jump into things), liberal on abortion rights (should be less encumbered by legal restrictions), and radical on religion/state (get those prayers out of legislatures and public school games). I'm probably reactionary on some things, but they don't come to mind right now. Overall, I think of myself as conservative-to-moderate.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 11:08 AM

Interesting points, Bartholomew.

When I moved back to Wyoming, after ten years in New England, the Democrats here turned their noses up at me, declaring me an Eastern democrat i.e. WAY TOO liberal for their tastes. First I'd ever heard of such a thing...since I grew up that way, in the West, I naively thought "a Democrat is a Democrat is a Democrat." Boy, did I learn! It is quite often difficult to tell Dem and Rep apart here and, in fact, the libertarians and others have taken to calling all "Republicrats."

I believe anything which because a cause or political movement for conservatives is generally driven by fear for the personal status quo/self. It may be couched in terms of saving a fetus; perserving tax breaks, etc., but if you follow those to their root cause, you will find fear. Fear of loss of control, loss of status quo, fear of diversity in all ways.I am NOT saying all conservatives are a bunch of paranoid ninnies just that FEAR is a powerful motivator.

I also believe liberals can be motivated by fear, but I think in general, that fear encompasses more than themselves. They are more likely to be concerned for the rights/safety of others, too.

Yes, I know this may sound simplistic: plenty of people whom I consider to be conservatives work together to ensure each other's rights. An example of what I am trying to say is there are many liberals who would work to ensure gay and lesbians may marry whomever they wish, regardless of thier own sexual preference, so that, if heterosexual, they are campaigning in a true alruistic sense. As a contrast to that, I would opine conservatives who campaign to limit a woman's right to choose, are motivated by their own control over someone else, reagrdless of their gender.

Okay, that's enough hot buttons. The recognition of fear as a motivator has come as a result of my six years in Wyoming working for human rights and to promote diversity. Humans are basically fearful of anything new or unknown. If we can addres the fears, of all *sides* it is my hope we can all balance it out, together (notice I did NOT use that overused term "meet on common ground"**BG**!) Now....that sounds like a pretty liberal stance to me and I am proud to be consider so, but I am sure that comes as no surprise to you all.*G*

Good thread, Rick, thanks.

katlaughing

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 11:07 AM

Good writing Cat-friends. Thanks for the feedback.

I think one of reasons that I started (by about 20) to be be suspicious of ALL ideologies was the inability of so many people I knew to back up their beliefs with convincing arguements (rarely a problem at Mudcat). Mob-mentality and peer pressure, often often seemed to colour (or completely define) someone's local AND global view. When I read Marx, I felt compelled to try and understand WHO the man was, how consistant his personal everyday behaviour was with his political views, and as much as possible about how his contemporaries perceived him. Same with other prominent humans who've influenced the times. For a couple of examples: The more I learned about Cesar Chavez, the more I admired him...the more I learned about Jesse Jackson, the more I disliked him...and yet, in the most popular definitions..The two of them would be very much on the same side.

I have tremendous admiration for Pete Seeger. Not only for his life-long dedication to getting people to sing, but for his "I may not be able to change the world, but I'm not going to let the world change me" persona.

It's funny how childhood adventure books can shape some of your beliefs as well. From reading the Robin Hood stories, I formed a picture of "Good" King Richard The Lionheart, as a protector of the poor English peasants...deperately trying to get back to England from his imprisonment, so he could depose his evil "arch-conservative nogoodnick" brother King John. OyVay! talk about someone who's virtues didn't stand up to personal scrutiny!

Rick

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 10:04 AM

I just want to throw a few things out there on this question. I'm testing my opinions on this subject and hope a good battering from the mudcat forum will disclose the holes.

I can't be a conservative because I do not see anything in this world that is ever "conserved". Things change constantly and to keep up you need to constantly check your definitions, question your assumptions and adjust your positions. For example, back in the day when those who owned held absolute power over their employees, the unions were absolutely necessary to achieve workers rights. At some point the balance of power in industry shifted. Now the need for unions in some industries can and should be questioned.

I don't consider myself a liberal, because I don't know what that term means at all. It isn't about freedom, per se, because many so-called "liberal programs" are aimed at limiting personal choice for the benefit of the body politic. If you consider liberalism "freedom with responsibility" you come a little closer to what I believe, and I don't know where on the political spectrum that falls. I am so confused.

If you ask me how I vote when it's time to stop pondering this stuff and it's time to make your choice as a good American, I do not declare party affiliation, but I genearlly find myself agreeing with the Democratic parties positions. However I vote, I do so never forgetting that the party platform is just a bunch of hooie anyway - circumstances will arise and the platform is tossed out and that's the end of that. Politics makes extremely strange bedfellows.

Am I middle of the road? The one thing I do firmly know is that all the interesting stuff that happens in this world comes from out on the fringes. And it's the stuff that works it's way in from the fringe to mainstream that makes life a little better. That's why I'm open to new ideas, philosophies, solutions, assumptions. . .Which party - which end od the spectrum - is more likely to nurture new ideas? You will have to tell me.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: kendall
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 09:59 AM

hey guest Mrrzy at work -- that quote came from Winston Churchill, a well known monarchist

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 09:56 AM

I think I am with Richard Bridge. A conservative is one who strongly believes in all the personal freedoms but would, with a clear conscience consistently deny them to others. I always think of it as pulling the drawbridge up behind you. Those who are not conservative, may still do the very same thing but it would at least bother them more and they would struggle a lot with their conscience.

This split is very deep in us, but narrowing? The following may seem not to have a lot a relevance to the question asked but my brain tends to widen things out a bit.

There was a series of TV programmes on the history of keeping exotic wild animals in Britain. This practice went way back, hence all the lions, elephants and bears depicted in heraldry. The most popular early books, other than the Bible, were illustrations and fanciful descriptions of both these real and mythical creatures.

Our fascination with them continues but our attitudes towards this have developed from ignorance of their requirements, to public shows and cruel baiting, to scientific interest and compassion for their welfare. This progress has been slow but generally welcomed to the point where we now tend to question the whole practice of keeping animals in captivity.

But baiting and exploitation of all types of animals for sport, betting and pleasure does still occur. If Don King organised something like a large-scale public contest, of bear baiting and this were to be legally possible to be staged, in one of our more 'civilised' countries. There would still be some people who would be in favour of it and whose conscience would not at all be troubled by, the unnecessary infliction of pain on the poor animals…… Fact. Unpleasant one but a fact never the less.

I am not suggesting that all conservatives are in favour of torturing animals. I just use it to demonstrate how deep the split can be between the way people look at things.

There appears to me in politics, to be those who appear to hate and as consequence, appeal to those I would describe as, 'haters'. Or at least to appeal to that mean spirited side of all us. You do not have to look too hard or far to find examples of this and of the resulting carnage and on-going misery caused.

The lesson we can learn from our changing attitudes towards the keeping of wild animals does give me some hope for the future, if only we have enough time to learn. For seeing the full knowledge of our past mistakes, does present the opportunity for us to do it better.

Which is why it is so important that we never allow certain individuals and groups to re-write history.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Mooh
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 09:50 AM

James, brilliant! Mooh.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: JedMarum
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 09:47 AM

I don't fit either description. When I watched three people ahead of me walk into the polling location a few weeks ago, the man at the door greeted each of my neighbors - when I approached he reminded me that this was the Republican polling location, and that the Democrates were voting in the door down the hall!

In the US Liberals label themselves as ones who care about their fellow man, and who accept lifestyles alternative to the mainstream - count me in! In the US conservatives label themselves as those who protect free enterprise and preserving the basic tenets of our culture - well I believe in those too!

I hate to let issues define me, but; I believe strongly in personal freedom, personal responsibility, strong personal values, and self actualization. I love and respect humanity and find genuine generosity is a natural trait, to me. I support 'CP', and a 'right to choice', religious freedom - I oppose most gun control, all tax based social engineering programs, censorship.

Where does that put me? Like others in this thread; I suspect idealistically; I'm all over the map!

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 09:46 AM

I have no brain....but that's been pointed out before.

Spaw

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: GUEST,Mrrzy-at-work
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 09:43 AM

Remember the old saying, if you aren't a liberal at 20, you have no heart, and if you aren't a conservative at 40, you have no brain...

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: jets
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 09:39 AM

As for my views on this matter,see above remarks by Kendall for I too lived through the deppresion.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Easy Rider
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 09:37 AM

Many of the people, whom we call Conservative, are really reactionary. They want to change things, but in a different direction from the Liberals.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Caitrin
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 09:28 AM

I was actually discussing this with my father in the car yesterday. It seems to me that a conservative believes in the preservation of the status quo. However, most of the people I know who consider themselves conservative do not fit this profile.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Easy Rider
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 09:22 AM

A Conservative is someone who will never try anything for the first time.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: GUEST,James
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 09:05 AM

I think liberals have embraced political correctness to the point of filling the world with little facsisms....Conservatives on the other hand...are little farcsisms.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Mooh
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 08:41 AM

Rick, personally and politically I'm neither.

Little Neo, I can't imagine being told how to vote, though I know it happens all the time, but not to me. No one would presume to tell me how to vote, and if they did I would tell them how to get off...even if there's not much to vote for...usually it's a choice between evils.

My taste in guitars is quite liberal, but that's as far right as I go. In my neck of the woods I see the Liberals as right wing as the conservatives (who are governing poorly and bizarrely) and I'm so far removed that I don't count politically. We are slowly killing ourselves by killing the environment, little else matters. The meek are not so blessed if there's no earth to inherit. I can't really define myself except to say that capital and lower case C conservative I'm not.

Re voting: if you choose not to decide, you've still made a choice. I've destroyed my ballot rather than voted. Practically no one represents me.

Before I consider politics I always consider this, by considering politics do I risk my belief system? The answer is always yes.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 08:41 AM

"Well I'm liberal to a degree, I think everybody should be free.
But if you think I'd let Barry Goldwater move in next door, marry my daughter,
You must think I'm crazy!"

Actually its an interesting subject Rick...Especially as it pertains to aging. I think the tags flew all over the board and in an effort to pin pols down on a position, the words have become almost meaningless. I heard about a radical conservative and I had no idea what that could be. I'll be checking in on this one a lot. (Sorry)

BTW, am I the only one who just loves Sam's (Billy the Bus) great "Stream of Semi-Consciousness" writing? Great stuff!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: kendall
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 08:36 AM

Conservatives..show me a man who is only interested in his own welfare, and has no sense of humor, and I'll show you a conservative. Seriously, when I think of conservative, I think of hypocrites like Ronald Reagan. He promised to balance the budget, yet, in 8 years he never submitted one balanced budget. In 8 years he drove us an extra 3 TRILLION dollars into debt.
Local control you say? How about the high school principal in South Carolina who said he would cancel the prom if anyone showed up with someone of another race? How about Mississippi? They finally got around to abolishing slavery 5 years ago. Governor Barnett, and George Wallace defying the national government by barring the doors to state colleges. Thats local control!! How many of you are old enough to remember this stuff on a personal level? I was raised on welfare, and not one goddmned dime of it ever went to non essentials. Consequently, I was able to stay in school, go on to college, and now I pay my fair share of taxes. You want to cut down on government spending? Tell Trent Lott to quit forcing unneeded, unwanted ships from his backyard on the pentagon. Corporate welfare has a much higher price tag than food stamps to the needy. Man, I could really get into it on this thread. Finally, I've been there, seen it with my own eyes not from some piece of propaganda from either party. Sorry, I'm not usually this mouthy.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 07:16 AM

It is a good question Rick. No one has ever asked me whether I am Conservative or Liberal. I was always told you MUST vote Conservative or it will be bad for the family business.

But I would honestly say I am someone who leans towards being 'quite' liberal yet I live amongst strong conservatives. I think the conservatives I live amongst like having me around. It makes them feel they are more liberal than they really are.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 05:42 AM

I suppose I would call anyone to the right of me a conservative. It is like the old triplet joke: I am cautious, you are conservative,he is a fascist.
RtS

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 05:03 AM

A conservative is someone who is minded to conserve the status quo. That sounds harmless but it is the corollaries which start to bite so that the final result is that a conservative wishes tohelp the rich oppress the poor so that the rich stay rich and get richer and the poor get poorer, and injustice can be visited by the rich on the poor simply because of the power of the status quo.

Why so you think Margaret Thatcher caused and aggravated the UK recession? Why so that the workers could not get thier just desserts from her capitalist friends! TO compel labour to march to her diktat.

And if that makes me sound like a Marxist - well I started off pretty right wing at 14 - I even believed that some people were better able to form an intelligetn view than others and so deserved more votes! - and now I'm 52 I've seen a thing or two and I know tha tthe only reason that capitalism stick together is that the workers go unrequited for a part of thier labour. I've been an employer, I've been an employee, now I try to do everything myself with a computer. THat way, no class war.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 04:50 AM

Whoops, hit the wrong button, while doing the clever HTML bits....;)

"If you have a firmly fixed position" you are Conservative either on the "Left" or "Right"

Martial music fades Left, or Right...;)

Callie, the first "free-thinker" I ever talked with was wonderfully "over-zealous" - he was involved with a race between a piano and a dinghy, across the mountains on the Milford Track in NZ in the 30s. But, you are correct - be "small-minded" and you can't "free-think".

Liberal? walk that tightrope, teeter from one side to the other, but try to keep in balance. Respect others' viewpoints, but try not to slip with one leg either side of the fence. I did, when I was 8 (balls just dropping) - I "flaked" and probably still haven't recovered....;)

Cheers - Sam

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 04:26 AM

Rick,

Like you, I sang anti-CP songs in the 60s. At that time, I could have probably named every person murdered in NZ in the past decade. Now, I wouldn't even have a clue how many have been murdered this year, let alone their names.

Like you, I now wonder about the Psychopaths" (hate using that word) who are incarcerated for maybe 15 years, set out into society, and kill again within weeks.

This may sound frivilous, but, here are my definitions.

Conservative = One who drives on the right side of the road in the USA/Canada/Europe, and on the left side of the road in Japan/UK?Aust/NZ.

[Aside] - All "Right thinkin' lefties" know "The left side of the road is the 'right' side, and the right side is the 'wrong' side"..;)

Liberal = One who drives fair up the white line in the middle of the road, no matter where in the world. And manages to avoid traffic from BOTH directions. Either by "skill", or "chance"

I'm a "wartime baby" (1943) and grew up with "Ban-the-bomb", Korea, Cold War, Malaysia, Vietnam, "environment" etc....

I've just deleted a zillionteethree "yellow legal pages" of waffle, and had a "Marmite" sandwich.....

If you're "all over the map", Rick, you are Liberal - if you are "all over the road", you still are (hopefully not drunk). If you have a firmly fixed position (either to left or right)

I like to think us 60s "Liberals", tried to steer the middle course, between the "Left/Right, Left/Right..."

• Martial Marching Music fades off to..

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Callie
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 03:39 AM

The thing I find intersting about a lot of "open-minded"/"free-thinking" people I know and love is that they are very small-minded when it comes to people who hold more conservative beliefs. So although they will support causes for social struggle in all sorts of sphere of human endeavour, they will ridicule people who are, say, religious.

The verdict: I think even the most free-minded and intelligent people need to be careful about not becoming so over-zealous that more conservative people are left out of their equation.

I hope I'm making sense. It's the end of a long work day.

--Callie

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: DougR
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 02:07 AM

Rick: As I said in the previous Thread you mentioned, I consider myself a Conservative and I am a member of the Republican Party. My remarks must be limited to the U.S. of course and reflect only what I believe not necessarily what I think everybody should believe. I believe that government should answer to the people, not the other way around; that government should be only as large as necessary to function as the Founding Fathers intended it to based on the U.S. Constitution; that the people should not look to the government to solve all their problems; that decisions affecting the health and welfare of the people can better be decided at the State level rather than at the Federal level; that the U.S. should have a strong defense; that term limits for politicians is desirable; that the government should live within its means; that we should respect the views of those who don't agree with us. I support the death penalty and do not support gun control or gun registration, but I do not believe the citizens have any need for automatic weapons. I could probably elaborate more if I gave it more thought.

DougR

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: GUEST,No 2
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 01:57 AM

Personally, I think that anybody who makes less than $500,000 per year should be sent to jail and executed.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 01:51 AM

I would say I am fairly liberal when it comes to believing in a strong safety net, care for the aged, good public housing, etc. I am an arch-conservative when it comes to believing that people receiving such benefits, and that includes most of us in one form or another, had damn well better behave themselves while receiving it...such as if they live in public housing they had better not use drugs, destroy the property, invite unsavory characters over or intimidate other tenants. Not a compassionate conservative by any means. More of a kick-ass liberal. mg

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 12:57 AM

I think conservatives prefer to define this for themselves, to the nth degree, and that's enuff definition for me.

~S~

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 12:53 AM

Don't mean to monopolize...but one area where I sense quite a change in my views is capital punishment. When I was 20 and singing Phil Ochs' "Iron Lady", I would have been VERY anti- C.P. but now (I guess from reading about so many plea-bargained and loop-holed trial verdicts) I'm pretty ambivalent about violent criminals being "done in" by the State. Guess I've lost the desire to believe that ALL life is sacred. Just too many horror stories....and I guess that gives me a pretty "conservative" slant in that area.

Rick

Subject: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 12:45 AM

I thought about this while perusing the "Folk songs for Conservatives" thread.

The words "conservative and liberal" are often thrown out to describe someone's political viewpoint, but it has occured to me that I personally know very few folks who would fit either description consistently. Many of my "political" friends would be pretty liberal socially, but fiscally quite conservative, and there are some (like me) who are all over the map...with seemingly very contradictory views on issues that some see as related.

Of course in Canada we have the "Liberal" party and the (Progressive) "Conservative" party, which many think are idealogically very close. The New Democrats and Canadian Alliance parties in theory represent the farther "Left" and "right", but are still very mainstream when compared to the splits in most other countries.

I'm just curious how Mudcatters would define "conservative" and "liberal" as it applies to them personally. Certainly in the 60s many "folkies" were quite liberal, but most that I know of have tempered a lot of their views as they got older. Any thoughts?

Rick