Forget the world; I'm makin' music!

Subject: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: SUZIE
Date: 24 Jun 97 - 09:47 PM

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: SUZIE
Date: 24 Jun 97 - 09:51 PM

MY HUSBAND SAYS THE HOUSE COULD BURN DOWN AND I'D JUST CONTINUE PLAYING. WHAT HAVE YOU MISSED WHILE MAKING MUSIC. THE PORK CHOPS BAKED ABOUT 45 MINUTES TOO LONG. DANNY SAID THAT'S OKAY, I LOVE JERKY!! MY POOR SON IN LAW KNOCKED AT THE DOOR FOR FIVE MINUTES THEN WENT HOME. HE KNEW I WAS THERE, HE COULD HEAR THE MUSIC, BUT THE DOOR WAS LOCKED.

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Bert Hansell
Date: 25 Jun 97 - 08:47 AM

Suzie,
We solved that problem. We leave the door open and the neighbors just wander in.
Bert.

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Kiwi
Date: 26 Jun 97 - 02:34 PM

I can't think of a specific instance, but the house could probably burn down while I was singing, playing, or doing a music mix.. and I wouldn't notice.

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Old Folk
Date: 01 Jul 97 - 10:48 PM

The wife and I are a "folk duo". We have been making music together since we were 13yrs old, we are 49 now. Without a doubt the best times in our life have been when we were playin' and singin' the old folk songs. Life is good.

Trent

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Laoise, Belfast
Date: 02 Jul 97 - 05:25 AM

I wish I could forget the world and just make music. I cycle home at full speed every day after work and I'm in a rotten mood until I pick up my mandolin, my guitar or my fiddle, or switch on my CD and listen to some fiddle-dee-dee. The only thing that keeps me going at work is reading these folk threads on the internet. I wish there was such a thing as a virtual "instrument" you could play via computer without the need for expensive gadgetry!

Tiocfaidh ar la.

Fair play to the Old Folk. You inspire us 20 or 30 somethings!

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Bert Hansell
Date: 02 Jul 97 - 11:23 AM

"OLD FOLK" at 49??? I think not. You youngsters have a long way to go yet.

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Bo
Date: 03 Jul 97 - 09:08 AM

A friend of mine has a bumper sticker that says:

_Real Folk Musicians_ have a Day Job !

grin

bo.

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Kiwi
Date: 03 Jul 97 - 10:50 AM

Nice bumper sticker.. I can think of a few friends I'd love to buy that for. :)

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jul 97 - 02:29 PM

I want one!...I want one!---*making notes for my 27 volume thesis on "What Really Constitutes Folk Music"*

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Kiwi
Date: 05 Jul 97 - 08:47 PM

Bill, what are some of your other notes for the thesis? :)

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From:
Date: 06 Jul 97 - 12:49 AM

well, there's an e-flat...and a G#...and....hmmm...never mind..that's silly...

Seriously...I have had this discussion so many times, I have promised a friend I would actually sit down & write it out sometime. I cant do it in a few lines (27 volumes may be a slight exaggeration)- but I think there is an approach to the question that avoids the problem of a precise 'definition'.. I typed 5 or 6 paragraphs after those dots;and decided not to post it all... I dont want to throw it out on the table before I have it clear in my own mind...if you'd like to see the rest that I saved to my word processor file, I'll e-mail it...I guess I'm not sure how serious your question was..*smile*

I do, however, think the bumper sticker line really gets at part of the question--and I'd really like to have one!!

Bill..

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Kiwi
Date: 06 Jul 97 - 01:46 PM

*nods* I can definitely see that.. all of the folk musicians that I know and am friends with have day jobs. :) And, well, I would LIKE to be a folkie musicker, but I haven't yet made enough money at my day job, and what little I make goes into pub runs to see folkies and blank tapes or albums of folk / Celtic music. :) I'll be sending you an Email shortly.

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: MusicMaker
Date: 06 Jul 97 - 09:05 PM

Why do "folkies" seem to have an attitude about the definition of folk music? Bob Dylan was castrated (not literally) at Big Sur when he brought his electric guitar. Did that make him less of a folkie? Does commercial success take you out of the folk world? I don't feel it did that for Mary-Chapin Carpenter or Allyson Krause(sp?). Can't the music speak for itself no matter where it's found? After all, it does come from "folks" like you and me.

$.02

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jul 97 - 05:28 PM

Bob Dylan was never IN the folk world ..Nor is Mary C. Carpenter... doesn't make 'em good or bad...just not folk...ask me in 40 or 50 years whether either of them have begun to acquire 'folk' status.(Allison Krause can...and sometimes does, do trad. stuff...but not all the time..)

Use of the word 'folks' in the way you do simply involves a standard logical fallacy called "equivocation"...see this page for more explanation

Downes explanation of logical fallacys

This is a very common thing people do...usually with the best of intentions, but I mention this because when flawed logic is then used to defend positions, we end up yelling at each other unnecessarily.

In this case, there is really a different meaning applied to two usages of the word 'folk'- which is why I more & more tend to refer to 'traditional' music (which, of course, has its own dangerous variety of interpretations!)

To reply to your question.."Why do "folkies" seem to have an attitude about the definition of folk music? " ...well, if anyone who comes by can define it anyway they want, pretty soon they are overwhelming the scene with stuff that is not like what we started with...and then the problem becomes...What do we old 'folkies' call the stuff WE like after the new kids have taken the name just because it is an easy and established catagory?Sure some of us have an attitude! (yes...my attitude is more noticable than some...like some environmentalists, I guess)

disclaimer: I am NOT 'in charge' here...I can't stop or control anything! I just defend my ideas...

(gee that was more like $.15 worth!)

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From:
Date: 08 Jul 97 - 01:08 AM

Uh-oh, Bill D, I was planning on someday doing *my* thesis on the difference between folk and pop and when does a song cross it someday! Since I'm so behind in everything else, you go first, ok?

:-)

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Laoise, Belfast
Date: 08 Jul 97 - 07:50 AM

I think, Bill, that you are hitting on really interesting contemporary music issues. I'm relatively new to the folk/traditional music world and actually started off listening to stuff by Bob Dylan and Joni Mitchell etc. I agree with you, they are not "folk music" but this isn't as MusicMaker suggests, as a result of their commercial success, but because folk was only one of their musical influences. One could come to a compromise and bring such artists into a new box entitled "contemporary folk music" but I guess you might get a whole load of pop artists who have a wee bit of folk in their style jumping on board - Suzanne Vega springs to mind.

A similar argument is currently found in Traditional circles over here in Ireland. You've the old style traditional players, and they usually tend to be the older generations (60+) who are playing traditional music as was taught them by their forefathers. This is the true traditional music and nearly every County in Ireland has it's own style.

After the Second World War the trad music became less interesting as Jazz and Rock 'n' Roll grooved their way over the airwaves from America and England. Trad nearly died out. And then in the 60's and 70's bands like Planxty and The Bothy Band started forming, bringing trad music into the late 20th Century, with soul grinding Uilleann Pipes and dizzy reels on flutes and fiddles. The rock element in modern Irish Trad is unmistakable. But is it still Trad? There are some that say that the essence of Traditional music is that it is dynamic and changes as the people who play it change. They believe that it is trad. Then there are the people who believe that Trad is keeping to the style of the forefathers and trad music taking on modern influences makes it undeserving of this title. Therefore it is not trad.

My opinion: if I like it then I don't give a toss what the hell its called!

Laoise.

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jul 97 - 02:38 PM

Laoise...well, I feel sort of the same way...if I like it, I like it...even if it was written yesterday! However, MOST of what I like is older...both in age and style...therefore, I need some way to differentiate when looking thru records..(uh...CD's), deciding what concerts to attend--and discussing styles in a forum.

Traditional music (and most other music) has always been dynamic(just look at the term 'folk process' which is used so much)...but the RATE of change these days---driven by commercial interests---has accelerated tremendously! There are many musicians who simply seem to be bored if they don't hear and do something 'new' on a regular basis. If they MUST do it that way...who am I to tell them nay? I only plead for a little space and (and a label to identify it) for those of us who don't want to go that fast! It is becoming more & more difficult for me to find concerts, radio programs,open mikes,festivals, etc. where I can hear large doses of my favorite kinds of music...I would at least like to be able to hold up a sign that says.."hey..if you like folk/trad music come join me". If I did, I would likely get great numbers of the younger generation who simply do not understand what I am asking for!

I often ask myself..(and others)..if I were to start a WEB page in order to discuss MY kind of music....what could I call it that would attract those of similar interests and NOT those who want only the newer stuff?

Ah, well...the struggle goes on...perhaps I should use 'Sisyphus' as my screen name..*wink*

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Henrik W
Date: 08 Jul 97 - 03:05 PM

I wonder if folk music (or traditional music, if you like) isn't really defined in the way it propagates? Probably more than any other genre of music, folk music is transmitted orally from one person to the other: You turn up at a session, hear someone sing a great song, and you ask him/her to teach you the words/chords - or, you buy an album and try to pick out the tune and scribble down the words. This changes the music and the lyrics along the way, but what the heck - that's folk music!

In a way folk music is still handed over from one musician to another - in general rock isn't, or classical music for that matter. I think that makes it different from most other categories of music.

So, if you accept this definition, well, then Bob Dylan has probably written a few folk songs, but he's also written a lot of "non-folk songs". Perhaps "traditional music" is simply the music "ordinary people" sing (and will keep singing for a long time)?

Any comments?

Henrik

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jul 97 - 06:29 PM

I suspect that, in time, a few Dylan songs may indeed become as traditional as some of Woodie Guthries are becoming......

as to 'Perhaps "traditional music" is simply the music "ordinary people" sing'....

"strive for simplicity...but learn to mistrust it.."...Alfred North Whitehead..

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Kiwi
Date: 08 Jul 97 - 08:52 PM

Laoise, I'm inclined to agree with you. I put things in different genres depending on time of day, mood, and whether the sun is shining directly on my head. :) Generally, I don't give a hang how it's supposed to be defined.. I just tend to lump it together in my own mind as "cool stuff to listen to", occasionally lending it the title "folk", "filk", or "Celtic" so I can put it on a thematic tape mix. :)

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Bert Hansell
Date: 09 Jul 97 - 09:06 AM

Can't resist joining in this one.

I think that a song is 'Folk' if people are singing it independently of any commercial, government or academic patronage.

I should really have written ...PEOPLE ARE SINGING IT... because that is the important thing.

I know that this definition might exclude a lot of 'traditional' songs that exists in standard archived collections, but if people don't sing them any more then I don't think that they are really songs, just archived representations.
Now if you are one of those people that disagree with this, don't come back and complain to me about definitions. Get out there and SING THOSE SONGS and I'll be the first to applaud.

Then there is all that Singer/Songwriter stuff that is passed off as folk music. Not that I am against Singer/Songwriters (I'm one myself) but if the S/S is the only person who sings his/her songs then they are not folk songs. Should they be lucky enough that a lot of other people would start singing, and keep on singing, them then they would become 'folk'.
So keep singing, and keep on submitting songs to DT so that we can share them ,

Bert.

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Alan of Oz
Date: 09 Jul 97 - 10:27 AM

See the thread "What is a Folk Song?"

Cheers,
Alan

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Music Maker
Date: 09 Jul 97 - 06:46 PM

I thought I'd get a flurry. I tend to agree with the notion that "traditional" music is something passed down. In fact, when I studied music in college the definition of Folk Music was not only defined as traditional, but it's origins were hazy at best. Especially where the subject of author or composer were concerned. Then comes the 20th century. If we adhere to the TRADITIONAL definition as taught in music history books, then Woody's and Leadbelly's songs aren't folk music either.

Hence my point. Many artist write and/or perform music that is strongly influenced by traditional folk music(music history definition) and have achieved commercial success, allowing their songs to be sung by millions(reference to Bert's definition). These are folk STYLE musicians (Dylan included) whether we like it or not.

If you want to differentiate by attaching the "TRADITIONAL" label, that's fine. We always have to categorize. That's the way we are.

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Kiwi
Date: 09 Jul 97 - 08:05 PM

Heh. How about we just toss everything into traditional folk and neo-folk? No, no, ignore that. I'm going to refrain from trying to express a hard-and-fast opinion because, well, I can't form one. I tend to think of folk music as a generalization with no hard-and-fast boundaries. Kind of like Celtic.. are we talking traditional Celtic stuff like "She Moved Through the Fair" or are we talking neo-Celtic like Black 47 or clan na gael? Hence, I lump things together. And when all else fails, I just clasify it as "fun to listen to" :)

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Bill F.
Date: 10 Jul 97 - 02:12 PM

Well said, Kiwi! If we enjoy it, and if we play it, and if we like it enough to adapt it to whatever style we prefer, why worry about defining it to death?

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Gisele E
Date: 10 Jul 97 - 06:51 PM

I think folk music is more rare that just the kind of music that is passed down orally or music that people like to sing to themselves.

I think it's important to include the kind of songs written by ordinary people rather than professional musicians. There is a woman in the city that I live that writes songs about the history of this city (and she's come up with some really interesting stuff!) and current events. That's what alot of what we call 'traditional' songs once where - songs about current events - ie Bonnie Dundee, Four Marys (sorry, I'm a French Canadian with a penchant for Scottish fiddle tunes...)

The point is although Bob Dylan is important and he does kind of fit in the 'folk' musician definition, it is the 'Stevedore Steves", "Frances Helyars", and 'Stompin Toms" of this world that make real folk music - music that is catchy, entertaining and not necessarily commercial.

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Les Blank
Date: 10 Jul 97 - 07:46 PM

Wow !! I'll wager that Don King is going to promote Sound and Fury II -- Kiwi vs Elsie. I hope it is on PPV !!

My own opinion, which I have held back for fear of the wrath of Elsie, who incidentally doesn't know much about Italian food -- Lime Jello and pesto sauce is tantalizingly tasteful, is that I listen, like and purchase most anything that is pleasing to my ear and is played acoustically. Occasionally I listen to mild electric, but sound made the natural way is most appealing to me. Most of all, I have the freedom to filch whatever I want from everybody and everything at Mudcat and I DO !!

Ain't it great ?? Now back to my coffin for another fortnight !!

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From:
Date: 10 Jul 97 - 08:01 PM

Hi

Thought this would fit in well here.

HAPPILY ADDICTED TO THE WEB
Sung to the tune of "Winter Wonderland"

C
Doorbell rings, I'm not list'nin',
G
From my mouth, drool is glist'nin
', I'm happy--although
My boss let me go--
C
Happily addicted to the Web
.

All night long, I sit clicking
, Unaware time is ticking,
There's beard on my cheek,
Same clothes for a week,
Happily addicted to the Web
.

E A
Friends come by; they shake me,
E
Saying, "Yo, man
! A E
Don't you know tonight's the senior prom?"
G D7 G
With a listless shrug, I mutter, "No, man;
C D7 G G7
I just discovered letterman-dot-com!"

I don't phone, don't send faxes
, Don't go out, don't pay taxes,
Who cares if someday
They drag me away?
I'm happily addicted to the Web
!

Enjoy

What about we all head over to the fantasy folk circle and try it out? Slainte

Alison

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Kiwi
Date: 11 Jul 97 - 11:48 AM

Les: Oh, I hope not! I do relish a good debate, but I'm afraid of overstepping the bounds of credibility and looking like a fool. After all.. I'd been listening to these styles of music for years without realizing it (my father got me addicted to Enya at least four years ago) but I didn't become a hard-core Celt and folk junkie until last summer. So I'm still a relative newbie, just a dedicated one. :) Alison - now, why does that song make perfect sense to me? :)

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Ferrara
Date: 11 Jul 97 - 04:28 PM

Loved the "Web" song. But we didn't want to quit singing after one verse, so I wrote a second one. Here it is:

People phone, male and female,
And I say, "Send an e-mail"
I can't talk to you,
There's too much to do,
Happily Addicted to the Web.

Can you guess my elation
When I locate information
On bagels with dill
Or pigs in Brazil --
I'm happily addicted to the Web.

In sixty-eight discussion groups and forums
I show a brilliant grasp of what is right;
Then there are the ladies soft and war-m,
Whose photos only show up late at night.

In the tub I would sit,
But the keyboard doesn't fit.
I eat what they bring
From the Carryout King,
I'm Happily Addicted to the Web.

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Bert Hansell
Date: 11 Jul 97 - 04:44 PM

Perhaps we should rename this thread "Forget the World I'm visiting DT"
Bert.

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: alison
Date: 12 Jul 97 - 12:05 AM

Hi

Ferrara

I loved your version.

Slainte

Alison

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Kiwi
Date: 13 Jul 97 - 08:26 PM

Bert... I like the idea. :) Though with all the music mailing lists I've signed up for, my personal one would have to be "Stop the world, I'm checking Email and then visiting DT, thereby passing gobs of time." :)

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Marsha
Date: 13 Jul 97 - 09:02 PM

Alison, Thanks so much for the web song! I was beginning to worry about you! Ha!

Ferrara's verse was great also!

I'd rather be making music than doing most other things in life, too!

Subject: RE: FORGET THE WORLD, I'M MAKIN' MUSIC !
From: Alison
Date: 15 Jul 97 - 08:00 AM

Hi

Just here to clarify things. People seem to think I wrote the song.... I didn't. I found it at "Jen's lyric" site, and thought I'd share it with you. There was no acknowlegment of who wrote it.

Marsha, what exactly were you wondering about.?

Slainte

Alison