Origins: Fields of Athenry (Pete St.John)

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: John Moulden
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 09:06 AM

It's ironic that Pete St John should have chosen "I'm forever blowing bubbles" as the epitome of non-sectarianism. A long time ago (at least thirty-five years) before I was interested in keeping records of such things, a man from the then Irish Free State whom I had met in a Youth Hostel, told me that in his childhood he had been whistling or singing "I'm forever blowing bubbles" and had been told by one of his parents never to do so again - "That's what the British soldiers sang while they were torturing Kevin Barry."

I don't know whether it is true or untrue. Belief has nothing to do with truth.

What's sectarian is very subjective.

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: Big Tim
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 01:54 PM

I've been on four continents and 28 countries, I've been in Athenry too, and found it no better or worse than than anywhere else in the world. In fact I found it as pleasant and peaceful as anywhere else in Ireland and I've been in all 32 counties. Victoria, I agree with you on another thread but not on this one.

Here is a selection from a Pete St John interview in the "Daily Record" newspaper (Scotland's most popular) Feb 19 1999. "It's a song about the potato famine in Ireland, it's that simple. I'd gone to Galway and read some Gaelic tracts about how tough life was in those dreadful times. The people were starving and corn had been imported from America to help them but it was Indian corn with a kernel so hard that the mills here in Ireland couldn't grind it. So it lay useless in stores at the docks in Dublin. But nobody trusted tha authorities, the Crown, to tell them the truth so hundreds of starving Irish marched on the city to get the grain. Some were arrested and shipped off to Australia in prison ships. I wrote a ballad about [in 1979], inventing Michael, Mary and a baby - a family torn apart because a husband stole corn to feed his family...all this information came from Galway so I set the song in Athenry, a little Galway village where the potato fields lay empty". The article was in the "Daily Record" becos the Song has acquired a controversial reputation here after being adopted by the fans of (Glasgow) Celtic, a "Catholic" football team. Pete finished up "it's a song about hard times in Ireland's history, a bit like Flower of Scotland is the same to the Scots. But bigotry? It's about as sectarian as I'm Forever Blowing Bubbles".

I can't vouch for the accuracy of Pete's research, but that is what the man has placed on record.

Recently I read Alexander Irvine's autobiographical novel "The Souls of Poor Folk" (1921)set with his family (which was Protestant) in Antrim town during the famine era. His family was starving, the boy (the young Irvine) stole some turnips from a field but his mother, the saintly heroine of his other great little novel "My Lady of the Chimney Corner", made him take them back.

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: John Moulden
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 12:53 PM

As one of the movers in this matter - let me say that I have just returned from three days in Athenry - and that my daughter lives there - and that I like the place and its people. No one has any right to an opinion until they know at least as much about the place and its people as those who live there. There's more than one kind of small mindedness.

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: GUEST,Victoria McDonnell
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 07:48 AM

True Joe, Athenry is quite a little hole. Then again, I live in Galway City and find most of the tiny towns in the county to be odd and full of small minded people. Gort is most likely the strangest, and then there's all of Co. Clare where, we joke, they're scared of electricity and other new fangled things.

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: Fiolar
Date: 31 Mar 01 - 08:42 AM

To Guest - Whistleworks. Quite believe it. I once recall reading a description of a holiday spent in Ireland by a lady writing for one of the British Sunday papers in which she describes her enjoyment of Irish dancing. I enjoyed the piece until I came to the part where she mentioned the grace of the reel and "the high-stepping bodhran." Nuff said. Some Irish person must have had a good laugh. Nothing against tourists. I think they are great but once when I was in Grasmere looking at the graves of the Wordsworths, one of the blue rinse brigade came up and shouted to her friends - "Oh, look here is another Wandsworth."

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 08:57 PM

A priest in our parish is from Galway. He says Athenry is kind of a dumpy place, not very impressive at all. True?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 08:18 PM

I just read a review in "The Herald" of the Dubliners' concert in Glasgow where the reviewer - a certain David Keenan - referred to the Fields of Athen Rye (sic)

Subject: sharing Athenry Experiences...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 04:27 PM

I've been using this song as the beginning of a meddley now for a couple of years... I call it my "Migration Meddly"

Starts with "Fields...", then into "The Outside Track", and ends with "When The Boys Come Rolling Home"

All in all about 10 minuts of soild music, and a great way to end a second set...

;-)

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: GUEST,Whistleworks
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 03:34 PM

This absolutely happened. I was sitting next to a very heavily perfumed woman on an Aer Lingus A-320 at Shannon which was preparing to take off to Dublin. She chatted continuously about everything under the sun, as she was a self-proclaimed expert on Ireland. As the plane taxied into position on the runway, you could see purple clover growing along the side of the runway. She saw this and gasped "Look...it's the fields of athenry...it grows wild most everywhere in Ireland". And that's that.

Bob Pegritz

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 03:21 PM

"Athenry" < "Béal Átha an Rí" = The mouth of the king's ford (not fort). There may be another such name in Ulster, but it's certainly not a well-known one. But then, there is another Belfast < Béal Feirste other than the one in Co. Antrim/Down and it is on the west coast of the Currán Peninsula in Mayo looking across at Acaill. Not a lot of people know that, to coin a phrase :-)
Annraoi

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 07:54 PM

I think it's a great song, but very sorry that it has become one of those songs you have to be careful about singing because of its association with a certain Scottish football club: I was planning to sing it on St Patrick's night recently but was warned not to because we were in "unknown" company who might potentially object: this is bigotry at its worst and "sad". Someone else then went on to sing "the Town I loved so well" which is pretty explicit in its regret of the British Army's presence in Derry and it certainly did not offend the "unknown" company. Tattie B

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: GUEST,Victoria McDonnell
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 10:30 AM

Hey Paul B., I hope you were kidding about the meaning of Athenry, inc ase you weren't, it comes from the Irish "Atha Rí", which means "Fort of the Kings" kind of. I was never clear on which Athenry they were refering to in the song, we have one here in Galway, but it's been disputed that the song was for us ::pout::. We do have a bay, but my husband said it was more likely an Athenry up in Ulsterish area somewhere. On a side note, my housemate has his new novelty mobile phone ring set to "Fields of Athenry" much to our amusement.

Victoria McDonnell Galway, Ireland

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 07:51 AM

Finding the published song isn't always the end of the story. Someone recently asked if I could find the words to "Granny's old arm chair". I found them in the collection of the Library of Congress. Written by Frank B. Carr "America's Motto vocalist" (whatever that was) published in 1880 in Boston.
Then about 3 weeks later (by accident) I found the same song in the same collection written by John Reid. pub 1881 Boston. There were other songs by John Reid but no other by Frank B. Carr. So was the later Publication the real writer and maybe the earlier one only the performer (Although he claimed to be the writer) What was odd was they were both published in the same town...

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 03:49 PM

So, do we have a copyright date and ond other copyright information for this song? any printed sources? Any corrections to the lyrics that are in the Digital Tradition? I checked ASCAP and BMI - there are three entries under that title, none attributed to St. John. I see that Seamus attributed it to St. John on his CD. Seems we ought to get a definitive version into the database.
Lesley N's "Contemplator" site says The Fields of Athenry was written by Pete St. John and was published in 1985 by Walton Mnf. Ltd., Dublin. Is that considered to be fairly solid information?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 02:51 PM

It's a huge problem on the Web: people just put up any old stuff cribbed without attribution from other places, without bothering to do even the most elementary research, and other people believe it because it's there.  Rumour and misinformation have never before had such huge opportunities for dissemination.  It's all our duties to make sure -so far as we can- that it doesn't happen here!

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: Noreen
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 12:35 PM

And the 'fastdesign' site mentioned above by John Hill has an interesting approach to classification- many attributable songs are classed as 'traditional' when a quick search would find authors: "God Save The Queen" is traditional English...

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: MartinRyan
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 11:22 AM

John

In a nutshell, so far, there is no evidence to suggest that this is anything other than a Pete St. John composition.

Regards

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 10:55 AM

Sorry.. I only had time to quickly skim though the thread... has anyone E-mailed these people to see where their info came from. As you say... one of the locations for it has been removed. On the other hand.. the "original" lyrics must have come from somewhere. Assuming that the owner of the web page didn't make them up.

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 10:40 AM

John: if you read the rest of this thread and follow up some of the links given, you'll find that your question has been quite comprehensively dealt with already, at any rate so far as has been possible.  The site you mention gives no provenance for the "original" text, and presumably got it from either Lesley Nelson's site (from which it has now been removed as of dubious authenticity) or from the original newsgroup posting referred to above.  John Moulden is an expert in his field, and in the absence of new, proven information, his comments should be taken as definitive.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 10:25 AM

Try looking here...
http://www.fastdesign.com/music/irish/fldathen.htm
Is it really new or is it old? ... did Pete St. John really write it .. or was it written in 1888. I think I prefer the original lyrics. Why were the names changed?

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: MartinRyan
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 06:31 AM

Heard Pete St. John talking about "Athenry" on radio this a.m. He said it grew out of reading contemporary reports of the transportation of a group of men who attempted to break into government stores of maize in Cork, around the time of the 1847 famine. He picked Athenry as a locale "because it sounded lonely"!

Regards

p.s. For the Irish - it was Michael D. Higgins who showed him the records!

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: Jed at Work
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 05:28 PM

good thread, wonderful song ... our Seamus Kennedy does a beautiful version of this song on one of his recent albums. Made me want to learn everythng I could about the song ...

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From:
Date: 22 May 00 - 01:15 AM

John Moulden, thank you for the dedicated research into this. It's much appreciated.

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: Robo
Date: 21 May 00 - 09:00 PM

Moloneycaitleen . . .

"Ireland's Call" was written by Phil Coulter, I believe. Heard him perform it here in Denver recently. Well done indeed. Don't know who else may have recorded it.

Rob-o

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: GUEST,Paddy(1)
Date: 21 May 00 - 08:21 PM

Moloneycaithleen

The rock version is by Brush Sheils (or the Brush)

Brush was a rock freak in Ireland before it was popular and profitable

Now living on a farm in Co Meath, still doesn't take himself too seriously

More than slightly tongue in cheek version but that's what the Irish are good at

Paddy(1)

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 21 May 00 - 07:00 PM

This thread has been getting serious- got to put a stop to that. The song has always got my goat anyway - 'Michael, they are taking you away' - perhaps he mght not have noticed?

But be that as it may as they say- I said to Danny the fiddler in the Union when he played the tune, "I know what rye is, but what's ath?"

Danny looked at me with justified contempt. "Juth tun round, I'll thow ye what ath ith"

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 00 - 06:58 PM

Perhaps you should let Pete St John have the results of your labours, John - he's probably been getting pretty irritated by people knowledgeably saying that, of course, he didn't write the song.

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: John Moulden
Date: 21 May 00 - 06:35 PM

Another tuppenceworth:

One penny: Cecil Woodham Smith has been much criticised; I do not wish to suggest that the Great Irish Famine was not a dreadful event, or that Britain's measures to deal with it did not range from the indifferent to the callous but history as politically sensitive as this requires very careful research and most historians (not just conservative revisionists) question her balance.

Two Pennies: I did further search in the 1887,88,89 Thom's Directories - I like to be comprehensive (and fair) and remembered that printers, especially of Music were sometimes engravers - and on copper plate - however there was no Devlin among Copperplate Printers or among Engravers in Dublin at those dates. So I'm in the clear as yet.

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: GUEST,Dan
Date: 20 May 00 - 11:49 AM

If you read the book "The Great Hunger' by Cecil Woodham-Smith, which I beleive is an articulate and highly accurate account of the famine in the mid 1800's, you will find out about Trevelyan and the rest of the English government leaders, who stood by and watched as the irish starved. Trevelyan did not try hard when it came to saving the Irish and the government at large, did nothing to assist the dying. The apology from Blair and the government was WELL deserved and should have never been required. The famines in Ireland were every bit as bad as the Holocaust in Europe during the second wolrd war, TAL, Dan

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: Lesley N.
Date: 20 May 00 - 01:06 AM

I've taken it off both sites now Barry - and put up a file that explains why if anyone searches for it. Reminds me of the Dark Isle - another contemporary, tradtional tune!

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: Barry T
Date: 19 May 00 - 11:27 PM

Yes... good job, John. And thanks!

It would appear that we have the Devlin in disguise!

(Sorry! I couldn't resist!)

Lesley: I won't object if you haul that tune out of the tunebook. Public Domain has been my self-imposed policy, too.

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 May 00 - 06:47 PM

Well, it's traditional now anyway. Sing half the first line, and sit back and listen to it.

But well done, John Moulden, for running the truth down like you seem to have done.

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: Lesley N.
Date: 19 May 00 - 06:39 PM

Good God John - what an incredible amount of research! I'm amazed! Though I admit I am a bit disappointed too - whoever wrote the newsgroup post certainly did an excellent job of it.

I have had to take several songs off my site that turned out weren't traditional (not because anyone asked, but because it's generally my policy - though I am known to make exceptions - like the Flower of Scotland). Guess this one will have to go too.

I started to put up short "error pages" so people know why tunes aren't at the site rather than them coming up with nothing. It makes me feel better anyway!

Thanks for all the hard work!

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: John Moulden
Date: 19 May 00 - 06:39 AM

I've now made searches as I said I would; all is negative.

The assertion is that the Fields of Athenry was printed in 1888 in Dublin by someone called Devlin.

1. There is nobody of the name Devlin listed among:
Printers (letterpress or photolithographic)
publishers
booksellers
Music Sellers
musical instument makers or dealers
music and pianoforte warehouses
print sellers
in the city or county of Dublin in Thom's Directory for 1887, 1888 or 1889

2. The catalogues of the two major collections of Irish Books made in the 19th Century - Bradshaw and Gilbert have no printer or publisher of that name listed.

3. There is no Devlin given in John A Parkinson: Victorian Music Publishers (Harmonie Park Press, Michigan, 1990) (Detroit studies in music bibliography no 64) which used the catalogues of the British Library, the National Libraries of Ireland, Scotland and Wales, the University Libraries of Oxford and Cambridge and also used the annual Musical Directory (1853 - 1931).

It is agreed that this is not conclusive but it does reduce the likelihood that the assertion is true. I now believe that it is up to those making the assertion to justify it.

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: John Moulden
Date: 10 May 00 - 04:09 PM

My daughter and grandsons live in Athenry so I am frequently there -I still don't like this song however; the one Martin mentions is much more within the traditional idiom.

I have managed to track down the author of the original posting in the harp-list and have indicated my scepticism. He insists that he saw the song in some kind of folio song collection, printed by Devlin of Dublin and that the book is owned by the family of someone he used to play music with. Hoewever he has no more than the copy of the words he made.

He was a little testy at being questioned about this and it would not be possible to elicit any more. However, I am in no way convinced, I'll be in Dublin on three occasions in the next two weeks and any references to Devlin will be fully checked - starting with the Street Directories and then with ER McClintock Dix's bibliographies - this is my field - and I'm almost prepared to wager that I'll find nothing to support this contention.

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: Teasle
Date: 10 May 00 - 03:38 PM

I went to Athenry last year... it was magic1 I was kinda reluctant to go, the song being so full of nostalgia and all ... didn;t want a disappointment. I wasn't let down! The walls of the old town are pretty much intact ... the town and the people were charming - and they have turned the old church into a brilliant museum. The local hurling team had just won its very first championship that day and they were celebrating!

Lots of good, fond memories of Athenry ...

Teasle

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: Barry T
Date: 09 May 00 - 08:53 PM

Brakn said Any news of this?

I relayed to John Moulden the newsgroup source (1996 thread in the Harp Digest) that made reference to the early publishing. I don't know if John actually tried to track down the authors in that thread.

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: rpm
Date: 09 May 00 - 06:06 PM

To Paddy(1) arrrgggghhh! but to John, I'm no authority but we'd all know a "bobby" or a "peeler" (SP?) if we saw one, why shouldn't we remember Trevelyan. Perhaps more to the point I think that boycott is pretty well authenticated. I try not to live it but we sometimes forgive if we will, but never forget. -Bob

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: GUEST,Paddy(1)
Date: 08 May 00 - 08:22 PM

Just to add my tuppence worth to this debate

I always felt that

"She watched the last star falling"

is melodic but meaningless (who ever watched all the stars falling?)

It should, of course, be sung as

"She watched the last tarpaulin"

which would give the impression of the final sail (canvass, spineker, etc.) disapearing over the beautiful Irish horizon.

Does this mean I can now claim authorship of this ballad?

Paddy(1)

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: Brakn
Date: 08 May 00 - 07:13 PM

Any news of this?

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 12 Mar 00 - 04:49 PM

I'm with John Moulden on this one - I smell a rat! Mind you, there is another Athenry fields song - but unrelated.

Regards

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: cujimmy
Date: 11 Mar 00 - 08:17 AM

I read an artcal by Pete ST John about the song a few months ago in The Celtic View ( magazine of Glasgow Celtic football club ) where he said that 3 ship loads of inedible corn were anchored off the south coast of Ireland and that some starving people tried to swim over and steal some of it, they were caught, charged and then punnished by Transportation.

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 00 - 07:30 AM

I'd doubt 1888 as a date for Athenry to be written, but it's be quite a reasonable date for a song written earlier to get put into print. Again, the term "broad sheet" can be used in a very loose way sometime to cover just about any relatively informal type of publishing.

Anyway, I'll be interested to hear anything John Moulkder digs up. Strikes me it's be a good idea to ask Pete St John, because he should know. (Alright, you could say he has a vested intyerest in saying he write the words rather than adapted them even if he did adapt them - but I think it's best to assume people are honest about these kinds of things to start with.)

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: zander (inactive)
Date: 11 Mar 00 - 06:40 AM

Thank's Alice, I have not come accross this version before.

Cheers, Dave

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: John Moulden
Date: 11 Mar 00 - 05:58 AM

It's clear that the "original" "1888" version, if genuine, obviates Pete St John's claim to authorship. However, the website which has the "broad sheet words" makes it clear that these were posted in a newsgroup and that no-one involved in posting the information has actually seen the ballad sheet; I haven't, in thirty years of looking at such things in the libraries all over Ireland and in Britain. Nor is the name "Devlin" familiar to me as a Dublin ballad sheet printer. Another point is that dates are very seldom given on ballad sheets and they are difficult to date - especially not to a particular year.

Two further points - if Trevelyan was Secretary around the time of the famine - 1845-49 - his name is not likely to have been widely remembered by the writers of popular songs, or meaningful to their audience by 1888. And - the song, as purporting to originate in 1888 on a ballad sheet is couched in a style of verse and in a style of language absolutely foreign to the medium.

I'm going to check on all these details but I would be very surprised if I find anything to suggest that this posting in a newsgroup was not a hoax, or a fraudulent attempt to muddy a copyright issue.

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 10 Mar 00 - 11:07 PM

Every song was written -- or made -- by somebody. If you can identify the songwriter, so much the better (speaking as a songwriter), but I don't see much point in arguing whether a song is "composed" or "traditional." For many so-called "traditional" songs it is possible to find "the original" -- just ask Bruce O. -- but later folk-processed versions may be just as much, or more, fun to sing. And, to my mind, that's what it's all about. Once you've done the Hokey-Pokey and turned yourself around, of course.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 00 - 05:59 PM

The words of the Field of Athenry are clearly just a variant on the 1888 version - I'd say it's a good variant, with changes for the better, but the changes are pretty minor. I can't see that Pete St John could call it an original song on the basis of them alone. M

On the other hand it is quite possible that the tune might have been made up by Pete St John, which would give him more of a claim of its being his song.

I think the case for "Will you go lassy go" and the McPeake's is stronger. From what I have seen, the development and change from the "The Braes of Balquidder" or the "Highlands of Heaven" (both on the DT) is a lot greater than it is for the text of Athenry. Of course there might be some intermediate version that I haven't come across.

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From:
Date: 10 Mar 00 - 05:29 PM

Mbo, I'm not all that convinced that Pete St. John or the family claiming ownership of those two songs is valid, despite what the legal begals say.

I believe they are both "Traditional", whatever that really means.

I believe both are old songs, whether in the case of the MacPeakes they modified more extensively than Pete St. John.

I suppose that someone will claim the Water is Wide and Carrick Fergus, and such songs.

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: Alice
Date: 10 Mar 00 - 02:35 PM

Zander, go to the Old & New versions link that George provided and take a look.

Subject: RE: Fields of Athenry
From: zander (inactive)
Date: 10 Mar 00 - 02:28 PM

Pete St. Johns songbook gives, ' low lie the fields of Athenry ' and 'our love was on the wing ' Dave