The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin

Subject: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: John Moulden
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 08:13 AM

Notice of New Publication

Elizabeth Cronin was recorded extensively in the late 40s and 50s by the Irish Folklore Commission, the BBC, Jean Ritchie, Alan Lomax and Peter Kennedy. She is regarded as one of the finest singers and repositories of song in both Irish and English to be heard at that time: Seamus Ennis called her (in Irish) "The Muskerry Queen of Song" - Muskerry being the area of south-west Cork in which she lived. Her best known performances include "Lord Gregory," "The Bonnie Blue Eyed Lassie," "The little Pack of Tailors." Songs such as "Sweet Lisbweemore" and "The Kangaroo" sung respectively by Andy Irvine and Christie Moore, were learned by them from her recordings.

Her entire repertory, compiled from the recordings, her own text notebooks and song lists,lists made by her son and other documents has just been published in book form. Edited by one of her grandsons, Dr Da/ibhí Ó Cróinín, it gives a picture of an extraordinary woman, a wonderful singer and an illustration of the full range of the repertory, in both languages, of an Irish traditional singer of great ability. It includes, family and regional background, all texts sung by her, tune transcriptions from the recordings, illustrative texts of songs mentioned only by title, photographs, notes and references. There are two cds re-mastered in the Irish Traditonal Music Archive by Harry Bradshaw with 59 tracks representative both of her repertory and the recordings.

The set (paperback only) costs £24.99.

Da/ibhí Ó Cróinín (editor): The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin: Irish Traditional Singer (Dublin, Four Courts Press, 2000) ISBN 1-85182-259-3

it is available also from Four Courts Press, c/o ISBS, 5804 Hassalo Street, Portland, OR 97213, USA

I am proud to have assisted with the research for this publication.

Ulstersongs (which I run) hopes to obtain a supply.

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: GUEST,NSC
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 03:32 AM

Congratulations John.

Will you be in Dublin May 19th - 21st for Góilín celebrations. If so I will purchase then. If not maybe Ennistymon?

Your comments about price are confusing. What is the price of the CD,s as against the price of the book.

George Henderson

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: GUEST,NSC
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 10:39 AM

Sorry John,

Your posting is not as confusing as I first thought. It is obvious that the cd's you refer to are in the archives and are not available for sale.

I still want the books though

George

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: John Moulden
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 11:08 AM

I'm afraid it must have been confusing. The book and cds come as a single package - all for £24.99. The cds have 59 performances. Other performances are available at the Archive, others at the Department of Irish Folklore at Nat Univ of Ireland Dublin and some more at the Library of Congress in Washington.

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 11:42 AM

This is great news! Let me urge all Mudcatters to get this set. Elizabeth Cronin was a wonderful traditional singer with a great repertoire. Caroline learned "Lord Gregory" from her singing of the ballad, only a few verses of which were included on the Caedmon LP where it once appeared. To finally be able to hear the entire performance is a really exciting prospect.

Sandy

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: Margaret V
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 02:09 PM

Great news indeed! I was intrigued by the cuts of Elizabeth Cronin on the Rounder CD of Irish music collected by Lomax and Ennis, and am delighted to hear that more is now available. Thanks, John, for your work towards the publication and for announcing it to us. Margaret

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: Conrad Bladey (Peasant- Inactive)
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 09:57 AM

If John worked on this does it mean that he has censored the collection of all the divisive rebel and unionist/orange/loyalist songs- as he is on record as not being interested in letting these see any further light of day? :)

CB

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: MartinRyan
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 04:28 PM

"Her entire repertory", edited by her grandson...

Regards

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: Conrad Bladey (Peasant- Inactive)
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 11:04 PM

Didn't know John was her grandson! :)

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: MartinRyan
Date: 17 May 00 - 12:07 PM

Just back from the launch of this excellent package. Anyone with a serious interest in Irish song (both in English and Irish) MUST get this. It's both comprehensive and beautifully done. Mrs Cronin was quite old when the recordings were made - and it doesn't matter a damn! The quality of the singing and interpretation survives.

I know that John Moulden's Ulstersongs (see top of thread)has indeed got some supplies - he can be contacted through the Mudcat links page.

Regards

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: Frank McGrath
Date: 28 May 00 - 09:06 PM

I saw a copy today and heard some of the recordins thanks to George Henderson. Martin Ryan is right. Anyone interested in folk music must get this publication.

Indeed it is comprehensive and a wonderful job has been done on the indexing and cross referencing. (I note the inclusiion of Dan Milner's "Bonnie Bunch of Roses" as reference material among others)

Mouldy, I want a copy, please keep me one. Are you going to Ennistymon?

Frank McGrath

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 28 May 00 - 09:55 PM

Just back from the Green Mountains of Vermont and delighted to hear about the Elizabeth Cronin book/cd package. I look forward to getting one asap.

I stopped into a pub in her home town last year and, after breaking the ice a bit, I asked a woman of 85 or 90 years if she knew of the famous Mrs. Cronin who had sung so many old songs for the radio. "Yes," she said, "she was very old!" I'm still trying to figure that out.

Mrs. Cronin lived in an Irish speaking "island" in Co. Cork. I'd heard her singing in English for many, many years. Only much later did I hear her singing in the Irish language and, I confess, I nearly fell off my chair when I did.

Im glad money was found to get this project to the public. I'm sure its absolutely first rate.

John Moulden is always up to something very good. Last time we talked back in March, I asked him what he was doing and he told me... but that was his CURRENT PROJECT; he didn't mention anything about this.

All the best,
Dan Milner

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: GUEST,George Henderson
Date: 29 May 00 - 04:02 AM

The recordings are magnificent and the quality incredible when one considers these recordings were made between 1947 and 1952.

I am steadily reading through all of the material in the book. There are some very interseting versions of songs that were not recorded but kept by Bess Cronin and noted down in her own hand.

I simply have not been able to put the book down since I got it last week end.

George Henederson.

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: John Moulden
Date: 29 May 00 - 06:19 AM

OK Frank, Ennistymon it will be; your name is down.

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: Alice
Date: 29 May 00 - 08:28 PM

Thank you for this information.
I have the "Irish lilts and Love Songs" tape recording of Elizabeth Cronin that I purchased awhile back from John's Ulstersongs website. It includes Lord Gregory. This is great news to have more recordings and information available.

Alice

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: GUEST,Johannes Schiefner
Date: 30 May 00 - 07:01 PM

John, that sounds very interesting. Are you coming to Miltown Malbay and bringing a few copies of the above mentioned items?

Regards Johannes Schiefner

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: John Moulden
Date: 31 May 00 - 11:35 AM

Johannes,

Yes, Milltown, and I don't doubt the Pipers' shop will have it too.

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 Dec 00 - 07:43 PM

Click here for an Irish Times article on the Bess Cronin book. If you're interested in Irish/British folksong - get it !

Regards

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: GUEST,Kathleen O'Sullivan
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 05:04 PM

Does the book contain the words of Sweet Lisbweemore ?

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 07:13 PM

Kathleen,
Yes it does and as a bonus it is No. 27 on CD No.1 of the twin CD pack.
A superb collection.
Annraoi

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: MartinRyan
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 07:58 PM

"turbary" is one of my favourite words!

Regards

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: GUEST,viperky
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 08:30 PM

Hello... had to change my name, because they had trouble with my cookie or something- I was, for a short time, Kytrad (and still am at heart). Viper's the name of my little village, so it's OK. Just wanted to brag that my husband George Pickow and I had very much to do with the Elizabeth Cronin book. We visited in 1952, and she was staying with her sister Mrs. O'Connell in Lisbeemuir, Co. Cork (we were criticized somewhere recently for having "posed" her in a cottage when actually she lived in a fancy manor, but we sat before her sister's lovely old fireplace mainly because we were cold!). I suppose the reference to a manor referred to the family home, "The Plantation," which they have not lived in for many years now. When we met her, she actually "lived" with her son in Macroom. I was on a Fulbright scholarship and my project was to search for the source of my own (Ritchie) family songs in the Old Countries. We stayed for a week in that neighborhood, and the O'Connells were so friendly- we became "family" in no time at all. Started with a cuppa tea round that grand fireplace, and developed into endless singing and music and set-dancing and going-to-the-wedding-in-straw (Dan O'Connell made me a straw suit and I went as "the stranger" of the group. The whole little village turned out, and all became our friends; the descendants gave us a party 40 years later, and it was wonderful to me to see so many of them still here. Bess Cronin of course was gone, but the young'uns knew her songs, and they all sang for me! Don't want to take too much space and time here, but over half the photographs and tape recordings in Bess's book are ours. If you have the book, you know that, but reading this great thread brought it all back... it's one of the irreplaceable memories that sustain us.

---

I e-mailed Jean her password and instructions, and asked her to go back to the "kytrad" name. Please don't try to send personal messages to "viperky." Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: Margaret V
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 09:09 PM

Jean, the photos are absolutely beautiful (I especially like the two pictures of the two of you) and as I am listening to "Lord Gregory" right now I'll take the opportunity to thank you for the wonderful recordings. They capture with clarity every pause, every subtle ornament, the quietness and surety of Mrs. Cronin's singing. I can see why the memories of your sojourn there are still so special to you. Margaret

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 09:31 AM

For the life of me I don't know what took me so long to get this book. I realized, during a conversation with my good friend, Pat Broaders (Dublin born piper, bouzouki, and dordan player), that I had forgotten Dan Milner's recommendation to get this. I ordered it from Ossian, USA and received it yesterday. If you claim to be an Irish singer, or a folk scholar, you must have this collection. I sat up until the wee hours listening to the wonderful CD's and scanning the text. Like George Henderson, I doubt I will put it down until I have read it fully.

As I was scanning the book, I come to page 21, and there is Bess with our own dear Jean Ritchie. The picture of the two of them sitting on the bench is priceless. I am envious, dear Jean. To have sat for a cuppa, chatted and sung with this women must be a wonderful memory. I hope to do the same with you one day.

I am so excited to add this to my ever expanding collection. I expect it will be well worn in a very short time.

All the best,

Mick Lane

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 09:52 AM

I had not seen this thread before, but I got my copy direct from Ireland as soon as it was available, think I saw a notice in Irish Music mag, or Dirty Linen, maybe. It's a Great piece of work, music is wonderful of course, but the accompanying book is well worth having as well, if only for the photos, as well as background on the songs. If you haven't got one yet and are at all interested in Irish Traditional Music, go on and get it.

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: sharyn
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 12:59 PM

Can someone tell me where to get this in the States (I've never heard of Ossian USA) or how many American dollars to send to Ireland for it? I'd love to get a copy. Thanks, Sharyn

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 01:15 PM

Sharyn, you can go to their website www.ossianusa.com and order it there. You won't be sorry.

Mick

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 01:22 PM

An in-depth critical review of this by Fred McCormick can be viewed at the Musical Traditions website:

http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/cronin.htm

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: sharyn
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 10:55 PM

Mick, thanks for trying, but your hyperlink didn't work. Don't know why.

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 11:06 PM

I am working on fixing it, Sharyn. In the meantime just cut and paste www.ossianusa.com into your Address Box and hit enter.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: Noreen
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 06:50 AM

Belatedly: http://www.ossianusa.com
(You have to put http:// in front or mudcat looks for it on it's own server, where it isn't!)

Thanks for refreshing this thread.

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: David Ingerson
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 02:18 PM

Thanks for refreshing this thread, Big Mick. I didn't know about this publication. Now I know at least one of my Christmas-Solstice presents!

David

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 02:55 PM

You won't be sorry, David. For the music alone it is a wonderful piece of work, and the CD's are wonderful. GUEST above points to a review that had some problems with the book, but I don't find them to have enough merit to worry about. Could they have improved it? Sure. Is it the most comprehensive look at this phenomenal woman, to whom we owe so much? Absolutely. I am enjoying it tremendously.

Mick

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: MartinRyan
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 04:07 PM

Fred's review sparked something of a controversy - which may still be available in the Letters Page of the same excellent site. Both book and CD's are well worth having, IMHO.

Regards

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 04:13 PM

Well now, I happen to think the above review is quite fair. And it does say that the CDs are the real treasure here, especially considering the faults of the book. I have them, and have spent far more time listening to the CDs than I have reading the book, as I agree with Fred McCormick's asssessment that considering how close the author was to the source and the community, we didn't learn that much about them at all, that can't be gleaned from other sources. But those are really trifling criticisms. The CDs are well worth the purchase price of the book, which is also an interesting read, particularly if you don't have much background on the singing tradition. Though if it is background on the singing tradition you're after, there are better sources. Sorta circular.

But I wanted to also mention that if you are interested in this woman's body of work, you should also have the CD and booklet "Roise na nAmhran: Songs of a Donegal Woman on RTE. The tapes to this one were remastered by Harry Bradshaw, and the liner notes and transcriptions were done by Cathal Goan, who works now for TnaG, and who married into the family, so knows the subject pretty well.

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 04:21 PM

Martin, as I understand it, it isn't just this particular review of Fred's that has sparked controversy, though I followed the debate about it with great interest at the time. Fred has been one of the few who are very vocal in their criticisms about the poor quality of scholarship and writing about traditional music, and I agree with his assessment in that regard a million percent. Too much of what gets published is regurgitated stuff from previous questionable (and often badly romanticised) sources, or just plain bad writing and/or editing.

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: GUEST,Liam's Brother
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 09:49 PM

For those in the USA, I'm almost entirely sure that Dick Greenhaus has copies of this book available.

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 11:18 PM

CAMSCO Music (AKA dick greenhaus) has both the Cronin book ($35 US) and the CD "Roise na nAmhran" Not strange, since CAMSCO sells anything that's in print.

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: GUEST,Bess Cronin's grandneice
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 04:06 PM

Hi all, I'm intrigued to come across this forum as I am Bess Cronin's relative. Her sister was my grandmother and I spent every summer in the house at Lisbwee that was so evocatively photgraphed by Jean Ritchie's husband. My mother was Margaret Cronin (Peg) who was born at Lisbwee - the youngest of a large family. My mother married a Herlihy from nearby Clondrahid and so became a Herlihy once more (her grandfather - Bess's father - was a Herlihy, too). My sisters and I are fascinated by the attention Bess attracts and it's true to say that her spirit lives on in our lives as we all like a sing song now and then!

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 07:45 PM

Hi Bess Cronin's relative.
Bess was one of Ireland's finest singers ever and listening to her recordings was one of my greatest influences and inspired a lifelong interest in traditional singing.
Was Michael a relative; if so, can you tell us something about him?
A pleasure to meet you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 09:21 PM

The book, sadly, has gone out of print.

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 11:18 AM

There were rumours that Daibhí was going to reprint it but it never came to anything.
It stands as one of the most important works on Irish song - and recognised as such; the fact that it sold out and is now out-of -print (despite the efforts of a folkie ego-tripper) is proof enough of that. No chance you might... Dick? Plenty of people looking for it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 12:56 PM

I've been trying to obtain permission for a reprint for several years now...no luck so far.

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: GUEST,Saoirse
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 01:11 PM

'and is now out-of-print (despite the efforts of a folkie ego-tripper)'.

I've been after this book for years, but Jim's statement is very puzzling. Why didn't the 'folkie ego-tripper' succeed in getting it republished?

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 01:54 PM

I may have misunderstood Jims comment, but i think he is referring to the bad review[FredMcCormick]?, and this having prevented it being republished., or have I misunderstood?

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 01:56 PM

or: it sold well, despite freds bad review

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: Jim McLean
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 01:59 PM

The book's in the British Library and I have accessed it on various occasions. Very informative.

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 03:00 PM

"I may have misunderstood Jims comment,"
You got is half right Cap'n - don't think the review stopped the book from being re-published, but neither did it stop the book becoming a best seller.
Never mind - meaybe he'll have better luck next time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 06:33 PM

Dick,
Count me in please if you do get permission. It's at the very top of my wants list.

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 07:34 AM

all I know is that Elizabeth Cronin was a very good singer with an interesting repertoire.
her realtives[daughters?duaghter in laws? neices?] are good singers too

Subject: RE: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 12:20 PM

I got a copy of this great book / cd set a few years ago for 20 euro on eBay. A private sale. Worth setting up an 'eBay watch' thingy or whatever, at least it was for me. A wonderful thing to have - the book / Cds that is - full of treasures.