Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 06:31 PM

Here's a "blue clicky thing" I'd like to ask you all to visit, and to add update information if you have it:

Song Circle Locations

If you know of song circles not listed or if you have updated information or website URLs, please add them.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 07:10 PM

One more matter that bugs me - people who introduce every song they sing with a long apology, explaining that they don't sing it very well, etc., etc. We have one woman who does this at length, every time she sings a song. If you want to sing a song, sing it the best you can, without apology. People will generally appreciate anyone who try their best, even if the results aren't perfect. There's no need for apology, although I realize the temptation to apologize is natural

---

The perennial Battle of the Blue Book reminds me of a battle I've fought in church for the last twenty years, ever since I joined the choir as an undercover spy from the parish council. The official position of the Catholic Church is that choirs and church musicians are to assist and support the congregation in singing, and "performance" is never to be the primary purpose of a choir. Since they are paid by the church, musicians pay lip service to this policy, and then they go off and prepare complicated arrangements of songs that are impossible for congregations to sing. Invariably, the songs are illegally photocopied; and they're never to be found in the hymnals the parish paid megabucks for.
For the life of me, I can't figure out what's so wrong with having a building full of people singing from the same hymnal, but we've sure had a heck of a time finding musicians who will encourage that.

Same thing with song circles. Certainly, it's wonderful to have a roomful of musicians who all know the same songs by heart and can sing all fifteen verses together with gusto. Certainly, it's nice to give great musicians a chance to dazzle others with stellar solo performances. I've sung with circles like that, and they're wonderful. I regularly attend four different circles in the area, so I get a wide variety.
That's not the kind of circle we have in Sacramento, and I'm proud of that. We sing from the blue book, Rise Up Singing, and I see no reason to apologize for that. We make a strong effort to encourage non-singers to join our circle, and we haven't found any aid better than the blue book. The musicians in the group work hard to introduce new songs to keep things fresh, but the mainstay of the group is the blue book. It's not whether you use the blue book that should be the issue - it's how you use the book.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Petr
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 08:09 PM

In answer to the question about tunes being played in a circle, I understand that Cape Breton sessions tend to be like that where an individual plays a couple of tunes and then it moves on to the next person in the circle as opposed to an Irish or Scottish (or other) session where people start tunes whenever they can and everyone joins in. A great story related to me by Finn Mcginty of Seattle: He was at an irish Session in NY. Two guys were sitting at the bar and one of them had a banjo. He approached the session players and asked if he could join them. They all said fine. So when they finished playing a set he started off on a bluegrass tune and they put their instruments down and listened. When he finished they played another set of reels and he followed with another bluegrass tune whereupon they put their instruments down. After this went on for a while he thanked them, got up and sat down by his friend at the bar and snorted "hmh, they dont even know the Foggy Mountain Breakdown!". Petr.

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 09:01 PM

Joe:

The solution to the long apology before every song is simple. At a song circle we used to attend, there was a crying towel ever present. At the first hint of an apology, said towel was unceremoniously thrown at the perpetrator, hopefully hitting the apologist in or around the head. Try it!

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 10:48 PM

Joe. Great point about apology introductions! Glad to see you here, I miss your posts. Have you been hiding out in the Tavern threads? Or is it love?

Bev and Jerry. Even better solution!

Rick

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: black walnut
Date: 25 Apr 00 - 02:22 PM

a crying towel!! perfect!! i'll have to see whether i can get that happening at our song circle. it might get thrown at me though....how embarrassing!

~'nut who tries not to apologize for forgetting words

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Irish Rover
Date: 25 Apr 00 - 04:13 PM

Little Neo, I'm glad you're thinking about public performance. song circles are a great way to get started as most of those people have been where you are and will respect the neofight(ha ha) it's not quite the same high as performing for an audiance but they don't throw things either. It's a great place to start and a good place to learn

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: GUEST,Flawn
Date: 25 Apr 00 - 04:47 PM

The thread about circle etiquette brings to mind last fall's Getaway of the FGSW, which many 'catters attended. There were some fascinating scenes of people who were used to very different etiquettes, differing senses of in-group-vs-out-group, etc. At two points I saw people get up and leave a session, their senses of etiquette offended. But the result of the whole weekend was an outpouring of joy at sharing with a larger, more diverse group.

Re the blue book: I know some of the folks who assembled the book, and the love they have for music and for group singing in particular. I've seen the book give access to singing for a lot of less confident souls, and I've used it myself from time to time. But at one large singing I attended several years ago that was done completely "with the book", the singers were sitting WAY far away from one another. Somehow the books insulated them, let them rely more on the book, and less on hearing--and singing WITH--other singers around them. In that sense, the presence of the books was fighting the development of that wonderfully intimate sense of COMMUNITY that good group singing can achieve.

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Bert
Date: 25 Apr 00 - 04:56 PM

Hi Flawn,

Here's ONE of the things that happened at that getaway.
A handful of singers got together in an empty hall and started a circle. It was well led and everyone was getting a turn. Then a whole load of other folks arrived and took over, usurping the leader and taking people out of turn. All of the original group left. In my opinion such a 'hostile takeover' is bad manners not etiquette.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Apr 00 - 05:27 PM

In Kent (England) we tend to call them "singarounds" - which is nice, because an anagram is "sinaground" which could be even more fun.

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 00 - 05:39 PM

Most Irish sessions I've played in, if someone starts up a bluegrass tune the company would join in and play it. Most bluegrass sounds fine with the odd bodhran and bones and a whistle. Green grass. (Blue grass sessions arern't so accommodating I get the impression. I had a friend visited one, and afrer one tune ended he absent mindedly started playing a jig, and they all just stared in shicked disbelief.)

I think the thing about knowing a song and learning a song often gets confused with memorizing a sing. If having the words in front helps you remember the words and what they mean, and stops you feeling nervous, there's nothing wrong with that - what matters is that you've taken the time before to learn it and to know it, so that you understand what it is you are singing, and aren't just reading it like a machine.

That applies just as much to people who dispense with the book - it is quite possible to memorize a song and be word perfect and note perfect, and have no understanding of it, and not to "know" it any any real sense. (And that goes for tunes as well.)

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: GUEST,Tay in Santa Rosa
Date: 25 Apr 00 - 06:33 PM

MAIN RULES: 1. Keep your instrument tuned. 2. Don't hog the music. TEMPORARY LEADERSHIP PASSES AROUND IN A CIRCLE. (clockwise, in the northern hemisphere -- same as the water in your toilet bowl)

3, The leader chooses the song, key, tempo and words and designates who takes breaks. 4. Be ready to lead BEFORE your turn comes around. 5. As a leader, give breaks to whoever seems ready, willing and able.

WHEN YOU'RE NOT THE LEADER 6. Let the leader lead. 7. Play softly when someone else is playing a break. 8. Don't talk when someone is trying to make music. 9. Ease into and out of a jamming group gradually and inconspicuously. 10. Encourage those who need it. 11. Remember that the closer together the instruments and faces are the better the music will blend. 12. Be friendly.

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: keltcgrasshoppper
Date: 25 Apr 00 - 07:46 PM

I hate song circles.. come on get real.. "Now today we'll sing about gardens.."

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Tony Burns
Date: 25 Apr 00 - 08:42 PM

What a great bunch of contributions to this topic. I just can't resist adding my own. :-) I've just read the whole thread but doubt I'll remember all of it. So please forgive me if .... Hey! Who threw that towel at me? It was only last summer that I was told that (at least some) Irish music makes a very firm distiction between tunes and songs. Tunes are instrumental and songs are acapella. I keep that in mind when reading some of the posts. I also think that there are circles where people 'perform' songs. These are acapella circles. This is what I think of when I read singaround or singers circle. All the other participants listen. As Peter T asked what we each imagined as a song circle. There are quite a few variations. It helps me to remember that when reading. Song circles that I have participated in are the kind where someone leads a song and everyone else joins in the chorus. (It's not 100% that way but that's the basis.) While I appreciate a wonderful song well done and admire the person that can do that I would not discourage anyone from singing regardless of skill. I do like to see that there was some preparation but there is nothing wrong with developing the song over time in the circle. I get a great thrill from seeing someone (especially the newbies) improve and gain confidence. I go to song circle because it is fun to sing and even more fun to sing with a group. Maybe I'll do a really fine job of a really terrific song some day but I'm enjoying the heck out of the journey. I'll paraphrase an earlier sentiment "It's not the use of words/cheatsheets etc.. It's the misuse of them that should be avoided." I like the concept of the crying towel. I'm not sure it can be introduced to the circle I currently attend as it would have to be done very tactfully. There is too much chance that it would be misunderstood. "Right version" -- The rules at the Nautical Song Circle in Victoria BC say that the right version is the one the leader is currently singing. A good rule if ever there was one.

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 07:22 AM

well said, tony. but, why would the towel be misunderstood?

~black walnut

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Tony Burns
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 12:11 PM

'nut

Since this particular circle has been active for close to 20 years I think the introduction of a crying towel, while a good idea, should be done by the right person at the right time. I've only been around the last 5 years and there have been hardly any instances when someone has been told to shut up and sing. So, you have inertia to deal with. People have been making excuses for years. You have to let them down gently.

The chatter before a song may be helpful to the nervous folks in the group too. Sort of a way to get the engine running.

Then again, I could be wrong.

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 03:08 PM

I'm not too sure about this tendency to talk about "acapella" instead of "unaccompanied". I think that the term should be restricted to a certain sort of pure voiced singing that might be appropriate in a church setting.

If you start using " acapella" as if it meant the saame as "unaccompanied" you get the absurd (to my mind) situation where you call the sinmging of sea shanties and rugby songs "acapella", just because no-one's playing any kind of intrumental accompaniment.

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: MMario
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 03:21 PM

McGrath - I asked at a school of music - and they told me that current accepted practice is "unaccompanied" for any music performed solo (instrumental or voice) and "acapella" for strictly voice....

http://www.singers.com/a-cappella.htmlinteresting site

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Tony Burns
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 04:49 PM

Doh! I didn't know there was confusion about a capella (or other various spellings). When I use it I mean voice only. I'll make a mental note to stop using the term but at my age the mental note may have vanished before I finish this sentence.

Thanks for the correction folks.

McGrath, I'm not sure unaccompanied is a great term either. I wouldn't consider two voices together as unaccompanied let alone a whole song circle. Voice only may be the best term.

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: RichM
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 07:09 PM

Rick Fielding said: Soph, it's hopeless. In the 2 years I've been on Mudcat this subject has been done to death! Some folks are just rude...and don't know it. It's back to that "social skills" thing I was talking about. It's why song circles, group therapy sessions, bluegrass jams, Church congregations, and card games all follow the same path. Eventually the ones who take their enjoyment of music seriously, split off into another group....and the same pattern happens again.

The only answer is "closed sessions"....and then you're called "elitist".

Joan, a couple of times at "The Woods Music and Dance Camp" I was asked to facilitate very large song circles. I tried a few things, but the best was to ask folks to break into 3 separate groups. Nobody complained and everyone in each circle got to sing 4 or 5 songs. Naturally, the next day I heard that "someone" complained that I'd messed with the "community spirit". Ya can't win! Rick

... I've been at the Woods a couple of times, and found, as did Rick, that the song circles were indeed too large. I like his idea of splitting them into smaller groups.

I have also hosted music circles, and eventually found that it's necessary to be an active host-- to intervene, albeit gently; to dampen down overexuberant guitar play-alongs and songhogs; make time for, and encourage shy people to do songs; and include commonly known chorus/songs that encourage participation... Include too, some a cappella songs.

I guess it up to all of us at such an event to be aware-- and encourage others to be aware, musically and socially.

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: GUEST,Mark Cohen
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 12:45 AM

Jenithea, when I lived in Seattle there was a Sunday night song circle, and I believe there still is. Check out the website of the Seattle Folklore Society for details. Also try to get hold of the monthly Victory Music Review for an outstanding calendar of music events in the Puget Sound area. I believe Victory Music also has a website.

Now, where can I find a song circle here in Hawaii? I keep hearing rumors about singers and musicians meeting in Lahaina on Maui, but I haven't gotten there yet.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 01:01 AM

Rich, seeing my words come back at me like that, make me feel abit "rude" myself, but obviously I find the situation frustrating.

The moment you suggest any kind of "etiquette" be a part of your song circle, someone will accuse you of "trying to take the fun out of it". I swear this happens constantly. It happens here on Mudcat, without fail. The most often-heard criticism is that you're "trying to make people into professionals!!" I just get really sick of it.

The best "music circle" I've participated in recently was at the home of Barbara and Frank Shaw (Mudcatters of course) in Connecticut. Several folks of varying degrees of experience...but ALL WITH SOCIAL SKILLS! So there was no need for 'rules". T'was fun.

The Circle that Black Walnut and Tony Burns spoke of had the same kind of feeling, the one time I was there. The folks have respect for the music AND each other. You can (and should) ask that of a gathering.

Rick

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: black walnut
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 07:24 AM

twice, rick. separated by a few years, but twice that i can remember.

rick's point about being critcized for trying to make people 'professional' is a good one. a good song circle can be a mix of those who make make money from their music-making, and those who do not. there are a whole lot of people out there, as we all know, who are fabulous musicians, but don't play or sing anywhere for money. there's nothing wrong with having high standards and expectations.

i think that perhaps the criticism might have more to do with the idea of whether or not one must have practiced a piece to a certain level before leading it in a group.

i'm sure that every circle is different in this regard, but i'll just say that at the toronto song circle, it is appreciated if the person leading a song knows it quite well, but if they don't, they can request someone else to lead it who might know it or remember it better. it's understood in the group that there are many of us who have other jobs and busy families, and that song circle might be one of those rare folk music breaks. it would be a shame , imho, to make participation in the circle something that people had to feel they'd had to do homework for in order to feel accepted.

there also has to be room for patience and time for growth. it's fabulous to watch someone's musical skills evolve. including one's own.

~black walnut

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 12:42 PM

If you've got the room for it, the best thing to do with an oversize sing circle is to split it like an amoeba. Or rather, let it happen spontaneously.

At the Fleadh Ceoil in Clonmel a couple of years that happened to such an extent that I think it ended up with three or more song circles spread all over the upstairs assembly rooms and staircases in a hotel, with all instrumentalists playing in sessions downstairs out of the way of the singing.