SeriousBS: Elian2

Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 12:28 PM

What I'm doing isn't America bashing. Every time I've said anything critical of aspects of the United States, I have pointed out that people can validly say the same kind of things about other countries, including the one I'm living in

My point is very much the same as M.Ted's, actually - I'm objecting to people looking at other countries and saying that everything about them is worse than the country in which they are living. MTed took it that I was saying that about his country (which I wasn't), and rightly objected to it.

Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 12:46 PM

MTEd said, Most Americans know how to filter the political spin out of the news, and they have learned how to discount the lurid and distorted tabloid coverage--

I have to say, MTed, you have a lot more faith in the general populace than I do; especially since it is such a small percentage who even care enough to turn out to vote. It is my belief that the masses "eat up" the political spin and other pap which is so prevalent in the media, otherwise the media wouldn't be dishing it out. No ratings=no coverage.

I also don't think of what McGrath has posted as bashing. Just my opinion.....

kat

Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 01:20 PM

Unfortunately I am being put in the position of defending my country in a thread where the main concern should be what was and is best for Elian. I will say this: the level of freedom and opportunity within the United States is probably the greatest in the world. As an experiment in self-rule by a country's own population, where the will of the people is exerted by their government, I find the United States second to none, and certainly far ahead of a Dictatorship like Cuba. Our actions in the world arena have been essentially motivated by these beliefs in freedom and self-rule. Since World War 2, the US has been put in a role we had never experienced: World Power, Bulwark against Communism, Policeman, and World Larder. We have made many mistakes, as the British did when in this position. But let me ask this....when Iraq seized Kuwait, should that action have been ignored, or did someone need to step up and stop it? And who would stop it if not the US, with the aid of its allies? And I believe this... if not for the Berlin Airlift in the early 50s, that city would have fallen to the Russian occupying forces, just as South Korea and Taiwan would have been subdued. Furthermore, I doubt that Europe would have endured in its present form without the presence of American Forces to counterract the Communist Block forces in the Fifties and Sixties. The fact is, you cannot be a World Power without committing transgressions, sometimes huge transgressions.

As for the action of the Vincennes, I believe it was a tragic mistake. If their commander was decorated for shooting down a passenger aircraft, then that was also wrong. Perhaps our "guilt" in this matter is somewhat mitigated by the loss of hundreds of soldiers and civilians, as well as Scots on the ground, when one of our civilian aircraft was destroyed by terrorists over Locherbie.

Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 02:15 PM

"The fact is, you cannot be a World Power without committing transgressions, sometimes huge transgressions."

Great Powers do indeed commit appalling "transgressions". List a few of the ones committeed by the countryt I am living in, and I wouldn't feel any need to excuse them.

Maybe it's inevitable. Maybe the level of "transgressions" can be reduced, especiallly if the citizens of then great powers concerned refuse to tolerate them.

Equally one could say that you cannot be a small neighbour of a World Power, under siege from that World Power, without committing transgressions.

Planks and splinters. Motes and beams. Pots and kettles.

Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 02:22 PM

Sorry Yank, you have no idea what I know about the US--or anything else for that matter--

I worked for most of the last five years with a United Nations affiliated NGO that delivered Global Education/Problem Solving Workshops to everyone from General Motors executives to school kids in Harlem, from LA to Estonia, to Singapore--

I can tell you how many mud houses you can build for what Americans spend on Video games, or how much it would cost to provide an electrical power grid to rural Paraguay--

I can also give you numbers related to how much the nations of the World spend on standing armies, armaments, and the like, and I can show you how much it might cost to solve the world's"insoluble" problems--

I spent(and spend) lots of time poring over newpapers from all over the world--I spend a fair amoount of time writing materials related to Global political and educational issues--More to the point, I spend a lot of time discussing these and related issues with international educators, business people etc So I do know something--.

One thing that I have discovered is that most of the things that people believe to be true are not quite so true when you look into them--

Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: GUEST,The Yank
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 05:07 PM

Wow! What a guy! He knows EVERYTHING- and he's humble, too.

Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: GUEST,GRNJ
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 09:37 PM

Having read this whole thread, here are the important things that no one is saying:

(1) A law enforcement agency is not required to "negotiate" with someone who is breaking the law. If they choose to do so tactically in some situation, fine, but to express outrage when they give up talking and make their move is ridiculous.

(2) Statements that there was no court order are also ridiculous. In addition to the several decisions that supported the INS'legal authority, there was a search warrant to seize the child, which happens to be a court order, which amounted to a finding that the child was being held illegally, and ordered officers to seize the child.

(3) An order specifically ordering L.Gonzalez to surrender the child would almost certainly have been ignored. L.G. would likely have simply gone to prison for contempt, and taken on the martyr role, while the family would still have the child for months on end.

(4) Never spoken by Reno or anyone else, but something I am *sure* was considered, (professional experience): There was certainly a growing risk that the Miami family was going to sneak the child out of the house and hide him, which would have totally thwarted the government and been disastrous. The family would have gone to jail, but they would have just soaked up the "martyr" business and kept this thing going for years.

(5) There is no issue about whether excessive force was used, because no force was used at all, except on Lazaro's door and on a few people who got shoved out of the way. This is well within what is permissible in executing a search warrant, and was clearly necessary. The minimal force used was absolutely lawful.

(6) Carping about officers being "armed" and guns being "drawn" is nonsensical. Law enforcement officers are always armed, and submachine guns have to be "drawn". Have you ever seen a submachine gun holster? You could ask whether SWAT uniforms, equipment, and tactics were overkill, but this is just a style point; it has no bearing on the legality or propriety of the raid. I am inclined to give the benefit of doubt to those who had to execute the raid.

Bottom Line: The raid was legal and nothing was done during the raid that was legally or logically objectionable. There is nothing to "investigate". There is nothing for "hearings" to "look into".

Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 09:38 PM

Oh, Uh, I sometimes look things up in a dictionary too, and just noticed that "yank" can be a synonym for "jerk"--

Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: GUEST,The Yank
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 09:59 PM

Oh yeah? Well, So's Yer Old Man! Nyah, Nyah, Nyah!!

[might as well keep this on an adult level....]

Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 01:04 PM

"yank" can be a synonym for "jerk"

Now that does sound a bit like America-bashing...

Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 01:11 PM

Yer mudder wears army shoes!!!

Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 06:56 PM

"Yer mudder wears army shoes!!!"

Well, there's no answer to that is there? I can't completely see the relevance of it, but never mind. "Yer mudder wears army shoes!!! " How profound.

Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 07:34 PM

I suppose it might be be "mudder" as in "Mudcatter"? In which case it all becomes blindigly clear:

"Your" as in "yours" at the end of a letter
"Muddeer" as in "Mudcatter" "wears army shoes" - "I'm a patriot" -

"Your mudder wears army shoes" = "This Mudcatter is a patriotic American - yours sincerely"

Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 08:43 PM

You just don't recognize Ted's genius!
CLICK HERE

Subject: RE: SeriousBS: Elian2
From: zenduck
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 09:57 PM

Thank you, Aine - whatever happened to a sense of proportion? According to people who keep track of these things, Elian has outpaced the Death of Princess Di and the Great JFK Jr. Plunge in media saturation, and is closing in on OJ himself.

Think of how different it would be if:

1) Elian was Haitian: 2) Elian was a BLACK Cuban (the racism of the Miamistas is notorious); 3) It was Elian's mother that wanted him back.

If we really wanted to get rid of Castro we would take away the soapbox we've handed him with the embargo and let him rot away the way that the other collectivist nightmares of the 20th Century have. Castro is a pig - the US has prolonged his life in power by giving him something he can blame for the wretchedness of his country other than his own Stalinist idiocy.

The Miami community is dominated by families like the Mas Canosas who hate Castro because he broke their oligarchic Mafia-like hold on the country under Batista. We should be taking them just about as seriously as we take the folks who want to restore the French monarchy.

Anybody remember the armed federal troops that were sent to desegregate the schools in Little Rock pursuant to a federal court order? Were they storm troopers?