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Thought for the Day - ANZAC Day

Peter T. 25 Apr 00 - 09:02 AM
katlaughing 25 Apr 00 - 11:16 AM
GUEST,Pete Peterson 25 Apr 00 - 11:34 AM
Wotcha 25 Apr 00 - 11:53 AM
Billy the Bus 25 Apr 00 - 09:39 PM
Wolfgang 27 Apr 00 - 05:21 AM
GUEST,The boys from Hamel Platoon 27 Apr 00 - 06:30 AM
Hyperabid 27 Apr 00 - 06:38 AM
GUEST,John Gray / Australia 27 Apr 00 - 07:30 AM
Ditchdweller 27 Apr 00 - 01:54 PM
Ditchdweller 27 Apr 00 - 01:57 PM
Peter T. 27 Apr 00 - 04:27 PM
Rowan 24 Apr 10 - 12:02 AM
Little Robyn 24 Apr 11 - 06:16 PM
Jack Campin 24 Apr 11 - 06:36 PM
Charley Noble 24 Apr 11 - 08:16 PM
Stewie 24 Apr 11 - 08:19 PM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Apr 11 - 08:27 PM
Dead Horse 25 Apr 11 - 11:47 AM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Apr 11 - 09:01 PM
Charley Noble 25 Apr 11 - 09:12 PM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Apr 11 - 09:24 PM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Apr 11 - 10:05 PM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Apr 11 - 10:07 PM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Apr 11 - 10:13 PM
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Subject: Thought for the Day - ANZAC Day
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Apr 00 - 09:02 AM

Today marks the 85th anniversary of Anzac Day, the start of the ill-fated campaign in Gallipoli on the Turkish Coast. 1500 Australians were landed, the first of almost 500,000 troops who were sent there over the next 4 months in one of the miserable failures of that miserable war. Moorehead's famous book, Gallipoli, recounts the sad story of how close this harebrained scheme came to early victory, and then ground down everyone into mincemeat associated with it. Of the 500,000 sent, 250,000 were wounded or killed. Like Vimy Ridge for Canadians, Gallipoli signified the moment when Australians and New Zealanders decided that the mother country was not the source of all wisdom. There is a service at Anzac Cove today, where a new memorial is being inaugurated...."And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda..."


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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - ANZAC Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Apr 00 - 11:16 AM

Thank you, Peter.


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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - ANZAC Day
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 25 Apr 00 - 11:34 AM

I hadn't realized today 4/25 was ANZAC day. What a stupid mess-- anybody who thinks Winston Churchill was always right needs to learn what he was resposnible for in WWI. I was surprised to find nobody noticed that yestreday was the 84th anniversary of the Easter rebellion. This is the FIRST time since 1916 that Easter fell on April 23th, so this is the first time since 1916 that Easter Monday was April 24th.


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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - ANZAC Day
From: Wotcha
Date: 25 Apr 00 - 11:53 AM

The Aussies and Kiwis of Kuwait did ANZAC Day a little early last week but it was poignant. The Turkish Ambassador was present and paid his respects.
Ironically, the folk singers who provided the first part of the entertainment were all POMs of some description ... but the music was familiar to all ears.
As part of the opening proceedings, an individual read "The Ode" which was followed by a minute of silence ... quite a privilege to have been a part of it all.

Cheers
Brian


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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - ANZAC Day
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 25 Apr 00 - 09:39 PM

Peter, thanks for the succinct summary of ANZAC Day. And, Brian, thanks for the efforts learning "Down-under" songs.

Sam


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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - ANZAC Day
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 05:21 AM

Don't forget to read The watchers of the water, a song perfectly fitting for this day and added by Stewie conveniently for ANZAC day.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - ANZAC Day
From: GUEST,The boys from Hamel Platoon
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 06:30 AM

here are some poems to read whilst thinking about ANZAC Day

At the going down of the sun...

I crouched in a shallow trench on that hell of exposed beaches... steeply rising foothills bare of cover... a landscape pockmarked with war's inevitable litter... piles of stores...equipment... ammunition... and the weird contortions of death sculptured in Australian flesh... I saw the going down of the sun on that first ANZAC Day... the chaotic maelstrom of Australia's blooding.

I fought in the frozen mud of the Somme... in a blazing destroyer exploding on the North Sea... I fought on the perimeter at Tobruk... crashed in the flaming wreckage of a fighter in New Guinea... lived with the damned in the place cursed with the name Changi.

I was your mate... the kid across the street... the med. student at graduation... the mechanic in the corner garage... the baker who brought you bread... the gardener who cut your lawn... the clerk who sent your phone bill.

I was an Army private... a Naval commander... an Air Force bombardier. no man knows me... no name marks my tomb, for I am every Australian serviceman... I am the Unknown Soldier.

I died for a cause I held just in the service of my land... that you and yours may say in freedom... I am proud to be an Australian.

For The Fallen

With proud thanksgiving, a mother for her children, Australia mourns for her dead across the sea. Flesh of her flesh they were, spirit of her spirit, Fallen in the cause of the free.

Solemn the drums thrill: Death august and royal Sings sorrow up into immortal spheres. There is music in the midst of desolation And a glory that shines upon our tears.

They went with songs to the battle, they were young, Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow. They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted, They fell with their faces to the foe.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old; Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn. At the going down of the sun and in the morning We will remember them.

They mingle not with their laughing comrades again; They sit no more at familiar tables at home; They have no lot in our labour of the day-time; They sleep beyond Australia's foam.

But where our desires are and our hopes profound, Felt as a well-spring that is hidden from sight, To the innermost heart of their own land they are known As the stars are known to the Night;

As the stars that shall be bright when we are dust, Moving in marches upon the heavenly plain, As the stars that are starry in the time of our darkness, To the end, to the end, they remain.

ANZAC Requiem

(An adapted version suitable to use as an introduction to an ANZAC Day Commemoration Service)

On this day, above all days, we remember those Australian men and women who died or suffered in the great tragedy of war.

On the morning of April 25th, 1915, Australian and New Zealand troops landed under fire at Gallipoli, and it was then and in the violent campaign which followed, that the ANZAC tradition was forged. The elements of that tradition have inspired and offered an enduring example to later generations of Australians.

Each year we pay homage not only to those original ANZACs, but to all who died or were disabled in their service to this country. They enrich our nation's history. Their hope was for the freedom of mankind and we remember with pride their courage, their compassion and their comradeship. They served on land and sea and in the air, in many places throughout the world.

Not only do we honour the memory of those Australians who have fallen in battle; we share the sorrow of those who have mourned them and of all who have been the victims of armed conflict.

On this day we remember with sympathy those Australians who have suffered as prisoners of war, and those who, because of war, have had their lives shortened or handicapped.

We recall staunch friends and allies, and especially those of the first ANZAC Day.

May we and our successors prove worthy of their sacrifice.


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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - ANZAC Day
From: Hyperabid
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 06:38 AM

Pete Petersen is quite correct that it was Winston Churchill who came up with the idea of Gallipli after we had already telegraphed our plans to the opposition. It took him around a year to recover from this disaster...

Who knows maybe it should have taken longer... I guess history suggests that it was a good thing he eventually did recover from this disasterous mistake.

Maybe it doesn't do any good to rake over such old coals - nobody would say that this wasn't a defining motion in the national identity of both Oz and NZ. Their bravery was exceptional in the face of a defending Turkish army that was pretty much in the habit of summarily executing captured allied prisoners.

I would just put in a brief word for UK Gallipoli veterans - pretty much the same percentage of them were killed. It was a mistake all three allies paid for.

None-the-less - A salute to the brave ANZAC!

Hyp


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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - ANZAC Day
From: GUEST,John Gray / Australia
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 07:30 AM

Yeah, Churchill sure made his fair share of mistakes, and I'm certainly no fan. Especially after his reluctance to release the Australian Divisions from the Middle East in WWII ( after Rommel had been defeated for the last time ) so they could return home to defend against the Japanese onslaught. But, if he hadn't of been around in WWII, tell me another Brit who was capable of rallying a dispirited nation and putting them on the road to victory ? I don't think anyone would disagree - that he was a "leader of his nation"

JG / FME


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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - ANZAC Day
From: Ditchdweller
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 01:54 PM

Churchill's original plan for the Gallipoli landings was trimmed down in both scope and numbers by the Chief of the Imperial General Staff. The advanced force was half way across the Med. towards Turkey at the time. Had the original plan been kept to instead of being emasculated, the campaign would have probably succeeded and knocked Turkey out of the war fairly quickly. Sapper


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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - ANZAC Day
From: Ditchdweller
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 01:57 PM

Forgot to add, to any Aussies and Kiwis reading, Thanks mates. Your help then and later on is still appreciated by some of us Pommie Bastards! Pity our political masters do not show the same appreciation. Sapper


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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - ANZAC Day
From: Peter T.
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 04:27 PM

Yes it is strange to read the story -- I have read a couple of books beyond Moorehead's, some Aussie memoirs, and got out the maps -- Canadians have a small interest too. As do the Turks -- a defining moment for them too. There were so many points at which amazing things could have worked -- failures to capitalize on absurd weaknesses in the Bosphorus, misguided landings, hours lost here and there in the crucial first few hours. And Churchill's original idea -- something to get out of the useless Western front -- was a good impulse. And then you can watch it all go wrong, and it all get stuck into a mini-version of the Western Front, and everyone gets entrenched all over again. And everyone keeps dying. It is such a mess, such a tragedy.

Churchill must surely be the classic example of someone who can make so many stupid decisions, and bad mistakes, and still be obviously the greatest person of the century just past (Time magazine notwithstanding), just for one moment when he was it really, thank God.

It should make one a bit more forgiving of one's own mistakes, I guess.
yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - ANZAC Day
From: Rowan
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 12:02 AM

Tomorrow, they all march again. A few, particularly those at Anzac Cove, will see the inscription, written by Atatürk, which pays tribute to the ANZACs and reflects his understanding of the cost of war:

"Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives... you are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours... You the mothers who sent their sons from far away countries wipe away your tears. Your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. Having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well."

The same inscription is on the Kemal Atatürk Memorial on Anzac Parade, the main ceremonial area outside the Australian War Memorial in Canberra. Surrounding Atatürk's memorial are pine trees Pinus halepensis grown from seed collected from the Gallipoli "lone pine".

The tunes played by the bands during the march haven't changed much, certainly since WWII.

Peace, Rowan


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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - ANZAC Day
From: Little Robyn
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 06:16 PM

It's Monday 25th April already here in NZ and again it is Easter.
It's been very wet this morning but no doubt the Veterans will have been out for the dawn parades all over the country.
This song
tells the story of the first ANZACs at Gallipoli but today we think of all wars and all the young men who were killed. They're just interviewing a young bloke whose relative was at Biggin Hill - he would have been known as "the old man" but he was 23 years old! Kids!
There are lots of old threads that tell you more but here's one from the late Sam Sampson - Billy the Bus

Robyn


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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - ANZAC Day
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 06:36 PM

It's about turning militarism into a religion.

Sick, emotionally manipulative garbage, and I'm delighted I'm half a planet away from having to put up with it any more.


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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - ANZAC Day
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 08:16 PM

And here's a song based on a poem by Cicely Fox Smith called "Farewell to ANZAC": click here for MP3 and lyrics

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - ANZAC Day
From: Stewie
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 08:19 PM

There is now a clip on Youtube of Paul Hemphill singing his fine song.

Watchers of the water.

--Stewie.


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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - ANZAC Day
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 08:27 PM

It's nothing to do with militarism. But I wouldn't expect non-Aussies to comprehend.

Like the Rats of Tobruk, it was a moment when a group pf people said 'fuck you, we not going to crumble'. There is great respect between Turks and Aussies to this day. many Turks migrated here.

ANZAC was the beginning of realizing for Aussies that the Mother Country was a bunch of ignorant idiots. We did not serve as Aussies with Aussie leaders, but with British Officers, some of whom may actually have been clinically insane. The British Officers - with orders to reach the heights before the Turks, who could clearly see them moving and pulled out all stops to reach the heights on the run, stopped to make tea! They didn't get there before the Turks - who then had the highest spots from which they could sight artillery, and see also the Dardanelles! This set the tone for the whole disaster. The British Officers behaved as did the Yanks In Vietnam - sending back glowing reports of how well they were doing. It was an Aussie journalist who let the cat out of the bag.

On the Western Front, just after this, there was an enormous political struggle before Aussie generals were allowed to lead Aussie troops. Only after that were the Aussie allowed to fight with intelligent effort, before that they were just considered dumb thug shock troops, who fought pretty well for just colonials, (h)actually...

It's got nothing to do with militarism, but governments had tried to corrupt it to be so. The Aussie People resist that push. We honour and remember those who served and died. My mother's father was 'over there' on the Western Front - he came back. We also never forget the incompetent fuckwits who led us. That has become a serious part of the Aussie Spirit - we as a Nation intensely dislike incompetent fuckwits.


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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - ANZAC Day
From: Dead Horse
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 11:47 AM

Blame the stupidity of the officers if you will, but dont blame the British. We were led by those same incompetent officers and died in thousands as a result.
We hold our commonwealth allies in the highest regard.
It is not generally recognised here that Australia has the largest number of non NATO troops engaged in Afghanistan, with three of their soldiers being awarded the VC.
The commitment of Australian forces cannot be overstated, in past conflicts or the present. They were also present in large numbers in Vietnam. A conflict we managed to 'avoid'.


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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - ANZAC Day
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 09:01 PM

"Blame the stupidity of the officers if you will, but dont blame the British"

Nothing personal mate, but many of the British Officers were mostly pretty hopeless in WWI (Slaves of Ancient Military Ritual, unable to react to changing conditions). Of course, they were behind the times, as indeed many others were too, as Industrialized Warfare had begun to be devastatingly effective. Only a few nations really understood this (in spite of the efforts of many individuals) by WWII too, which is why the medium range 'blitzkreig' style was so effective at first - failing in Russia. Of course even they were hamstrung by their own shortsighted leaders for some technologies, for if the desired numbers of submarines, and the advanced types of submarines had been produced in sufficient numbers when they were first planned, things would have been even nastier.

My dad went on ship to the USA (prior to Dec 1941) across the Pacific, then by the Queen Mary across the Atlantic to England. He never would have made it across the Pacific if enough of the 'super subs' with high underwater speed were around then.

"We hold our commonwealth allies in the highest regard."

Thanks mate, but that was definitely not the opinion of those British Officers of the time that were Slaves of Ancient Military Ritual and Racist Colonial Classism. Even the Yanks wanted our Special Forces guys in Iraq ... :-)

Which reminds me what one of them I was chatting to at a party told me about Iraq, when he was there. They were zooming along in their jeep, and came to a US truck with a flat tyre, and the guys sitting around. "Can we help you change the tyre?" "No thanks, we're waiting for the Specialists to get here." Aussies left at high speed, not wanting to wait around in Sniper Alley....

Of course, this may not have been true, and just have been Aussie Humour ....


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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - ANZAC Day
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 09:12 PM

Here's a link to a tribute from the Allpoetry Forum of poems for ANZAC Day, ignore or fight over it as you may: click here for link

I especially like the 1934 statement by Ataturk.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - ANZAC Day
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 09:24 PM

That statement is repeated every ANZAC day here now - it was 'rediscovered' some years ago. It is in fact read by a member of the Turkish Military or Government at the Turkish ANZAC sites ceremonies.


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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - ANZAC Day
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 10:05 PM

http://www.anzacsite.gov.au/1landing/bartlettbio.html

Ashmead-Bartlett's dispatches praised the prowess and bravery of the troops but became more and more critical of their leadership and what he believed was the futile sacrifice of so many men. On 10 May his dispatch in the Daily Telegraph in London warned readers of the strength of the Turkish troops. This differed from previous reports and was certainly a very different message from that in official GHQ communiques.

Despite the warning about censorship, Ashmead-Bartlett was nevertheless surprised when, in May, the British Admiralty confiscated a package of undeveloped films he had taken: he had been given permission to take his cinematograph and had taken many lantern slides of the operations. Then, on 27 May he lost all his notes and possessions with the sinking of HMS Majestic off the Gallipoli peninsula. Ashmead-Bartlett returned to England to replace his typewriter and wardrobe and while he was there he attempted to advise English politicians of his impressions of the problems in Gallipoli.

He continued to have problems with missing dispatches and censorship after he returned to Gallipoli. On 18 July he complained bitterly:

    I thought there were limits to human stupidity but now I know there are none. The censorship has now passed beyond all reason. They won't let you give expression to the mildest opinions on any subjects …There are now at least four censors all of whom cut up your stuff … All hold different views and feel it is their duty to take out scraps. Thus only a few dry crumbs are left for the wretched public. The articles resemble chicken out of which a thick nutritious broth has been extracted.

    [Ashmead-Bartlett, diary, 18 July 1915, Mitchell Library, State Library of New South Wales]

In late August, Australian journalist, Keith Murdoch, received permission from General Birdwood to visit Anzac for four days. Despite having signed the official declaration regarding censorship, he agreed to carry a letter from Ashmead-Bartlett to the British Prime Minister, Herbert Asquith. A British army officer in Marseilles confiscated the letter. Before his ship had reached England Murdoch had composed an 8000-word letter to the Australian Prime Minister, Andrew Fisher, which he sent on 23 September. His letter praised Australians lavishly but attacked the British army at all levels. It contained many errors and exaggerations but provided ammunition for the anti-Dardanelles faction in London. It contributed to Sir Ian Hamilton's recall on 17 October and to the eventual evacuation of the allied troops.


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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - ANZAC Day
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 10:07 PM

So a Govt & Military censoring negative reports about failing war strategies in the early 1900s .... couldn't happen again could it?

:-)


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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - ANZAC Day
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 10:13 PM

"Keith Murdoch"...

yes, he was young then... ;-)


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