Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 00 - 08:53 AM

*BG* -- No problem from where I sit, Mr. Clark. You're in fine form. Now what was it I was going to post?

Neil (from the shores of Golden Pond)

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: Mark Clark
Date: 01 May 00 - 02:59 PM

Neil,

I see I've reached that age at which I can no longer remember what I've said here before. I can only hope I'm at least being consistent.

I too will continue to annotate charts as you suggest, using dim for the triad and the degree sign for dim7. I have no university education in music so what I do may not meet the expectations of academia but then most of my playing techniques wouldn't pass muster in those hallowed halls either. I believe our usage represents the general case and since language is determined by usage and given that music is a language... And analyzing Schubert sounds like a lot of work to me, though I love to hear him played.

I see I've reached that age at which I can no longer remember what I've said here before. I can only hope I'm at least being consistent.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 00 - 11:47 AM

Mark Clark--

Thanks for reiterating what constitutes a diminished chord (i.e., all minor third intervals). I believe you have posted that explanation before - I'm glad you retyped it for lazy folks like me who didn't print it out the first time and were reluctant to do a search to find it again.

A chord naming program (nod to Tony Burns) I use called Nutchords makes a distinction between a *just plain* diminished chord and a diminished chord annotated with the little degree circle. From what I could see (or hear), it looked like the only difference was the *just plain* diminished chord had only three notes while the *degree circle* diminished chord had four.

From the above posts, I am to assume that the chord naming program seeks to differentiate between a *just plain* diminished chord and a diminished 7th chord (e.g., A#dim is A#-E-C#; A#degree circle is A#-E-G-C#), although what I am reading in this thread tells me there is a difference of opinion between jazz players and classical players as to how it should be notated. For purposes of distinguishing one from the other when using Nutchords, I'll assume that *just plain* diminished will be notated *dim* and consist of three notes, and diminished 7th chords will be notated with the little degree circle, and consist of four notes.

Edifyingly,

Neil Lowe

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 29 Apr 00 - 03:25 AM

Sorry Twitchy, I thought you made up those chords yourself--which is what AC had suggested--though I am not sure why it was included here--

I don't remember suggesting that you were either male or female, either--and it wasn't a backhanded compliment--

From your comment about the G#, it was clear to me that you weren't playing what I thought you were playing with that chord progression--

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: Mark Clark
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 06:33 PM

JZG, Great information! I started out as a "There are no notes to a banjo, you just play it." kind of a guy and slowly realized over the years that knowing how to read a chart doesn't hurt your playing as much as you'd think. Now I'm grateful for every bit of theory that people are willing to share.

Thanks,

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: Mark Clark
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 06:24 PM

Twitchy, thats what I always thought. Well, the folks in the U of V *music* department may not be the morons we're talking about, it may be the morons in Comp Sci who probably built the Web page for them. They "knew" that A# and Bb were the the same note and, like most software developers, figured we didn't need dual semantics for the same thing.

As for theory, I have no accademically sactioned training in theory, just what I picked up from a man I studied some jazz with a long time ago. That's why I'm most comfortable with the notations used by jazz players.

Your point on the major 7th is good too. I always thought it was interesting that the unadorned 7 refers to the dominant 7th (and the flatted 7th is not found in the root diatonic scale) while the major 7th always receives some kind of adornmment to set it apart.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: GUEST,JZG
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 06:09 PM

Oh -- no, you don't rename the chord if you play an inversion. It's always the root of the chord, which is the note that would be on the bottom if you re-wrote the chord as a pile of stacked thirds (in other words if you un-inverted it). That's what I was trying to say, don't know if this is any clearer ...

In formal music theory terms, the little circle just represents "diminished" and a dim7 is written with the little circle *and* a 7 next to it. There's also something called a "half-diminished 7th chord" which is written just like a dim7 but with a slash through the circle. It has 4 notes: the root, a minor 3rd, another minor 3rd, then a major 3rd. It's "half-diminished" because the 5th is diminished but the 7th isn't. (In a dim7 chord you have a diminished 5th interval and a diminished 7th interval both).

That's what I larned in school, anyway, and that's how people use the notation in analyzing Schubert symphonies, etc.... the usage may be different in actual practice among jazz & folk musicians, I don't know.

JZG

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: GUEST,Twitchy
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 05:36 PM

Mark said: Isn't the Bb° notation usually employed to designate the diminished 7th? If this doesn't come through, I used the degree symbol, a little circle above and to the right of the flat sign. A plus sign means augmented, a minus sign means minor and the degree symbol is the diminished 7th.

Exactly, and that's how most jazz transcriptions are written. You are correct. Also, a 7 with a dash through it, indicates a major 7th.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: GUEST,Twitchy
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 05:28 PM

Mark Clark,
Those people at the U. of V. are morons and suffer two dimensional thinking in terms of their musicality.

The rule of thumb, theory wise is quite simple (but confusing to some people nevertheless.)

The key signature determines the semantics. If you're playing in a sharp key (ie: E, A, D, G, B,) than all half steps from the supposed anchored note, are treated as sharps.

If you're playing in a flat key, (Eb, Bb, Db, Ab, Gb) than all half steps as notated, would be treated as flats.

Two exact sides of the identical coin. Just semantics to give musical theorists more tripe to discuss over Cognac and cigars.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: Mark Clark
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 05:24 PM

JZG, you're quite right. I often get lazy and refer to diminished seventh chords as merely diminished. I guess that's because I've never seen one played any other way. Any time I use diminished or simply dim, I'm referring to a diminished seventh. As for naming it after the bass note, isn't that the convention for the basic chord only? When you play inversions of a chord, you don't rename the chord just because the root is no longer on the bottom do you? (This is really a question.)

Isn't the Bb° notation usually employed to designate the diminished 7th? If this doesn't come through, I used the degree symbol, a little circle above and to the right of the flat sign. A plus sign means augmented, a minus sign means minor and the degree symbol is the diminished 7th.

Thanks,

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: GUEST,Twitchy
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 05:20 PM

Thanks for the back-handed compliment (I think?) M.Ted.

(And no, you don't have the slightest idea of who am I..nor whether I am male or female --not that it's relevant in any sense. I just prefer to be a guest for now and be on the outside looking in. No desire for that warm and extremely fuzzy "Mudcatter feeling". Have already seen memberships render too many people into rodents.)

Those changes were lifted from a fake book a long time ago, and I tend to play the song in E as it sounds nice on the guitar in that key. Whether you choose to use an E chord over a G# on the 6th string is your perogative and your taste.

You can also substitute (as you've done) the C#m7 for the E major 7th, or just play a straight E chord.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: GUEST,JZG
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 04:54 PM

Hmm ... Mark said a diminished chord can be named after any of the 4 notes it contains, because they are all equally spaced (all minor 3rds) but that's actually the characteristic of a diminished 7th chord. A "just plain" diminished chord has only 3 notes (all a minor 3rd apart) and it's named after the one that would be on the bottom if you stacked them in 3rds, same as with a major or minor chord. At least, that's the "music theory" nomenclature. I don't know if anyone ever actually plays just plain diminished (as opposed to diminished 7th) chords on a guitar, especially considering the dim7 is more generally useful ... JZG

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: GUEST,Frankie
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 04:42 PM

Actually Mark, you've greatly augmented this thread. I pulled out an old transcription of Doc's version of Deep River Blues and it's call the chord after the initial E7 a Edim7 but, of course, it contains the Bb (or A#) so therefore...

Frankie

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 02:36 PM

I recognize that chord progression, Twitchy, and I know who you are--You are a very dangerous person, because now I am fooling around with this song instead of doing other things--

I started it out -- C#-7//B//Bsus4/C#aug/D9// but don't have time to finish it right now--I like your chords better, though(am assuming that you are starting out with the G# note on the bottom string)--

You are right about this song, I should have added it to my repertoire years ago--

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: Mark Clark
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 01:18 PM

Well those chords didn't work did they? I'm beginning to think MMario is right. There are some mysteries in the universe that mortals aren't supposed to play around with.

The problem, as it turns out, is that the University of Virginia doesn't believe a chord can be called A#dim7; it must be called Bbdim7 or else. Can anyone explain why they think that?

The fingring I use for "Deep River Blues" and the jazz chord fingering should now display correctly except they're now labeled Bb instead of A#.

Go figure,

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: Mark Clark
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 12:43 PM

Well, I hope I can add a post without diminishing this thread.

A diminished seventh chord is very interesting because each note of the chord is a minor third above or below the next. This consistant minor third (three fret) interval between each note means (allowing for inversions) there are really only three such chords.

Any diminished chord may be named after any of the notes it contains since the intervals are all the same. (The choice of name depends on usage.) That is because you use up four evenly spaced notes of the scale playing any particular dim chord. Move your chord up the neck one fret and you have four new notes. Move it up one more fret and you have played all the notes there are. If you move it one more fret up the neck, you have the same four notes you started with.

If my ear (and memory) serves me correctly, Doc Watson plays an A#dim as the second chord of his wonderful rendition of "Deep River Blues." The fingering I use is a thumbed chord but you could skip the thumb and play only the four treble strings.

When chording, I tend to make an A#dim this way. Naturally these forms may all be moved up and down the neck as needed.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: JedMarum
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 12:29 AM

I must say I rarely use the A7 in a 12 bar blues, except as accent ... I do frequently drop the C# and play a B within the A Major .. what's that some sorts suspended something or other? I love the unresolved sound.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: GUEST,Twitchy
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 11:43 PM

ASection

E-maj7th//G7-flat5//F#m7//B7//
E-maj7th//G#7flat9//A-maj7th//A#-dim//
G#-min7th//C#-min7//F#-min7//B7//
1st ending [G#-min7//C#7//F#-min7//B7//]

2nd ending [E-maj7th////D-min7th//G7//]

B Section

C-maj7th////F9#11////E-minor7th//A7th//
D-minor7th//A7th//
C-maj7th////F#-min7th//B7th//
E-maj7th//C#9//F#-min7th//B7//

CSection and ending

E-maj7th//G7-flat5//F#m7//B7//
E-maj7th//G#7flat9//A-maj7th//A#-dim//
G#-min7th//C#-min7//F#-min7//B7//
E//// ending...or E//C#-min7th//F#-min7th//B7//...
and back to the top.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: GUEST, A.C.
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 10:52 PM

Ok, Folks. How about this:

Do you know the song - "Smoke gets in your eyes"?

Well, without reference to any recording, or sheet music; just using your knowledge of the melody line, formulate a set of chords for it.
And enjoy your travels.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: GUEST,Frankie
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 10:41 PM

Thanks Rick, that last progression is especially nice. I hope you get to feeling better.
Paddymac, I should of titled it something like "Does Rick Fielding Have Diminished Capacities" (apparently he does) but it didn't occur to me in time. I'll try to be funier in the future.

Frankie

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: The Beanster
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 01:33 AM

That's a classic, paddymac? I wasn't aware.... hahhaaaa

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 01:24 AM

Hi Banj.

There are sooo many variations to a "standard" 12 bar blues. The term "standard" really means nothing. The most basic (might) be:

E//// //// //// E7//// A7//// //// E//// //// B7//// //// E//// B7////

The "crow jane" or "Key to the highway" blues (might be)

E//// B7//// A7//// //// E//// B7//// E//// B7////

A more "complex" blues (might) be

E//// A// A#dim// E// B7// Bm7// E7// A//// A#dim.//// E//// C#7//// F#7//// B7//// E// C#7// F#7// B7//

Infinite variations (and not all 12 bars)

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: Banjoman_CO
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 01:13 AM

Rick; Question..... I thought that a standard 12 bar blues was the first 4 bars of tonic. I see you have a sub-dominant 7th in the second bar. Is this standard blues. I was just wondering.

Banjoman

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 11:33 PM

Ah, but when you combine a diminished seventh with an
augmented seventh, you reach the musical peak...
a demented chord!

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 11:17 PM

P.S. Glad to see you get the flack for funny/notfunny headers.....but it DOES get folks in, who might not normally bother. Who knows, before leaving in disgust maybe they'll take a diminished with them.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 11:14 PM

Hi Frankie, guess who?

First off, anyone who's not used diminished chords 'cause they feel their "complex" or just "decoration", should actually try a little experiment. This is simple, so give it a shot.

Play a simple 12 bar blues. Just E, A and B7.

(E)////(A7)////(E)////(E7)////(A7)////(A7)////(E)////(E)////(B7)////(A7)////(E)////(B7)////

Remember each set of 4 strokes (beats) represents a bar.

Play the A7 chord with the middle finger on the 4th string 2nd fret, and the ring finger on the 2nd string 2nd fret.

OK, here goes the diminished adventure.

When you get to the last 2 beats of the 2nd bar, put your index finger on the 5th string, 1st fret.

Replace the A7 in the 6th bar with the chord you just played in the 2nd half of the 2nd bar.

Play that same chord for the last two beats of the 11th chord.

Simple, and should sound very good (and a little jazzy). You've just used an A# diminished to make your blues a little fancier....and that's just the beginning.

I'm getting writer's cramp (and battling a migraine). If someone can do a simple explanation of the Diminished and show a couple of positions, we should be on our way.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 11:12 PM

Now, now Paddymac, a trend was started but surely what you mean is that pople no have is SUSed.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: paddymac
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 11:07 PM

Guest Frankie - your question is legitimate, but your choice of a thread title just plain sucks. I know (well, at least I presume) it is intended as humor, but, IMHO, it's about a funy as the classic turd in a punch bowl.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 11:03 PM

The next time I see Rick, I'm gonna' kick his ass................

Spaw

Subject: Mudcat Seems To Be Diminished
From: GUEST,Frankie
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 10:51 PM

Does any one have anything to share re diminished chords, B or otherwise? I use them in raggy blues but don't really know what I'm doing.

Frankie