Hidden agendas within music scholarship

Subject: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 11:29 AM

This was brought up in another thread.

clank

It got me to thinking of where much of my information on folk music came from, when as a teenager I'd read anything I could get my hands on. Certainly both Lomaxes wrote extensively on Huddie Leadbetter (Leadbelly) and the implication was that his violent nature (although somewhat romantically depicted) kept them both on their toes constantly during collecting trips. Many years later I saw copies of the contract they had with him. Talk about "violence inducing!"

For years I'd read about Professor John Greenway's research into folk song being "tainted" because of his conservative political stance. Any thoughts on this?

Not music-related, but a few nights ago, I watched a "new" documentary on the "Shroud of Turin", that appeared at first glance to be the most current scientific thoughts on it's authenticity. It wasn't until the program was nearly over that I realized that the "experts" were "Creation-Scientists", folks belonging to the "Messaianic Judaism" group, and Biblical scholars affiliated with (and apparently funded by) the 700 Club!! All fine fellows and Gals, I'm sure..but hardly likely to arrive at any conclusions that might run counter to those of Pat Robertson! In other words, not as objective as I'd like to see in a documentary. Their conclusion, by the way? It's REALLY real!

This has come up several times in the discussions of sources used in fleshing out the meanings in old folk songs. Some folks site certain authors as the "last word", while others can hardly believe that the same authors are even taken seriously. Needless to say I'm not qualified to be anything but a curious onlooker in this area, but the subject fascinates me. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks

Rick

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: Mark Clark
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 02:42 PM

I think nearly every aspect of human activity is filled with hidden agendas but this seems especially rampant in "scholarship" of all kinds. One can't become a noted scholar simply by parroting what others have said, one must add to the existing pile in some noticeable way; either by new discoveries or by new theories about old discoveries. If a scholar proposes a new theory, then all existing knowledge in the field---or at least the results of contradictory research---must be recast (spun) to support the new theory. The scholar must be successful in spinning everything his or her way or find some other line of work (or at least come up with another theory).

Sometimes it can take me a very long time to realize what a song is really about. I rememer driving Chicago's Kennedy Expressway many years ago passing the time by singing old songs and eventually I found myself singing "The Blue Tailed Fly." Suddenly, like a bolt from the sky, I realized the song is being narrated by a slave who has just killed his master. I'd been singing that song since I was five years old and never realized what it was really about. Talk about slow! Somehow that aspect of the song had never been discussed around me.

Now would you like me to put the Shroud Of Turin controversy to rest once and for all? My own research in this area is particularly extensive and insightful.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: Amos
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 02:45 PM

Huh? Killed his master? What, they were enslaving blue-tail flies and their version of an uprising was to bite ponies?

What am I missing here? Or are we talking about a different song than "Jimmy Crack Corn"?

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: GUEST,T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 02:55 PM

I'm not familiar with Greenway's work. When the 1998 thread on pagan music (not the recent one) drifted into a discussion of Joseph Campbell, I noted that I thought Campbell had a Jew-hating streak in his personality, but that the question of whether he had such a characteristic was separate from the question of whether it influenced his scholarly work. Maybe you'd find the same distinction to be useful in your evaluation of Greenway.

Even if Greenway's political views influenced his scholarship--say, by influencing his choice of questions to research--that doesn't mean that his work is totally useless. If nothing else, it might provide useful data for how scholars' political opinions influence their scholarship!

T.

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 02:56 PM

What nonsense is all this? It should be obvious the song is about a guy with serious foot problems. Research shows that since shoes of that time period were made to fit either foot, bunions, corns, and plantar's warts were serious problems of the day.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: Mark Clark
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 05:15 PM

Think about it. Every verse is narrated with a wink and grin not a sorrowful longing for "dear ol' massa." Consider... "One *chanced* to bite him on the thigh, The Devil take the blue tailed fly." Oh sure, the narrator doesn't actually kill massa with his own hand, he just "accidently missed" a fly or two. (Lawdy, Lawdy, how'd that fly get over there?) "He died and the jury wornderd why, The verdict was the blue tailed fly." And what about... "Ol' master's gone now let him rest, They say all things are for the best." Combine that with the chorus that says "...I don't care, My master's gone away" and I think you have a reasonable case for a homocide. And isn't the blue tailed fly itself simply representative of the slave narrating the story?

I say, more power to him... speaking strictly from the point of scholarship of course.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 05:22 PM

Actually T'in, the majority of the criticism of Greenway came apparently from folks like Irwin Silber et al, and even if you loved his politics you'd still have to admit HE had a MAJOR agenda.

Rick

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 06:27 PM

Which was....?

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: sophocleese
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 06:36 PM

My mother likes to wear a T-shirt which says, "Scientists should clearly state the theories on which their facts are based." Darwin's theories of evolution fit in quite nicely with England's economic theories of the time. No science can be completely objective, although it is a laudable goal. The best you can do is declare all known biases and let the reader beware. The harm that some scientists and an eager public do is let science claim absolute truth in whatever they are doing instead of publishing reasonable doubt. In many cases the burden of proof falls too heavily onto one side, ie, prove that cigarettes are harmful not prove that they aren't. So I always like to check sources before making claims and I like to remember those sources when I'm repeating things. I also tend towards the simplest explanation probably being the closest to truth, but not always. Somebody once explained to me the ancient Celtic background behind the song The Two Sisters, The miller represented this, the sisters were these two.. etc. I thought it interesting but given that many of the variations of Two Sisters were made by people with no knowledge whatsoever of the mythology he was talking of, and that murder between people who are not gods has and does occur, I didn't think highly of the theory.

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: JedMarum
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 06:42 PM

people can have hidden agendum, music is music.

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: Abby Sale
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 08:03 PM

soph: I generally agree but Darwin's theories of evolution had nothing to do with England's economic theories of the time. You're thinking of the truly evil concept "Social Darwinism" which came later and had practically nothing to do with Darwin.

I saw that Shroud Of Turin propaganda and was also aghast by it. I'm always distressed by lies - especially when the agenda is a secret one. It's a great fraud.

But within folklore I think (hope) most agendas are simply theoretical - not secret. Where the theory is so profoundly slanted as to taint the research, I think (hope) it becomes clear in the writing. I occasionally notice writers so slanted as to be silly - Harlow, quoted in Abrahams' _Deep the Water_ or anywhere in Kidson - but in both cases the song reporting seems good enough.

Rick, can you cite an example or two from Greenway of actuually misleading the reader intentionally?

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: bbelle
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 09:22 PM

Jed ... I disagree with you. During the time of the Underground Railroad, the words in spirituals were changed to include directions. I'm sure there are other instances of that nature ... moonchild

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 11:10 PM

I didn't detect any hidden right-wing agenda in Greenway's American Folksongs of Protest, nor did I find him anything other than a bit grumpy when I got to know him in Boulder in 1959. It wasn't until I read his remarkable book, The Inevitable Americans, that I realized the truth of some of the horror stories I'd been hearing from other folklorists. The last section of that book, describing his attitude toward the student demonstrations against the Vietnam War, is quite shocking. The book, like his others, is brilliantly written, but to know that he became a deputy sheriff so he could carry a billy club on campus, that he announced to his classes the day before a planned student demonstration against the war (for which most faculty members were prepared to forgive absences from class) that his classes would be held as usual and a test would be given that would make up a large percentage of their grade. Miss the class and fail the course!

John suffered from a persistent ulcer, and admitted that it made him irritable. He kind of enjoyed playing "king bastard," I think. I found him intellectually stimulating, if cranky, and we got along well. I'll confess, however, that the fact that I knew more verses to "the Ball at Kerriemuir" (spelling?) than he did was what won him over.

Silber's agenda was from the other side of the political fence, of course. People complained about that when he was editor of SING OUT!, but, while I would have liked to have seen more traditional material in the magazine dduring those years, I tended to agree, generally, with the positions it espoused.

Let me urge you all to read Last Cavalier, the Life and Times of John A. Lomax by Nolan Porterfield. It has some very interesting segments regarding the Lomax relationship with both Leadbelly and Iron Head Baker that Rick referred to above. I would also suggest D. K. Wilgus' book Anglo-American Folksong Scholarship Since 1898, an important study with a somewhat surprising chapter on the Lomax collection.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: Art Thieme
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 11:46 PM

I understand the feeling of anger and sorrow that can come from realizing that people who had an ethical position (seemingly) that drew you into a political movement and then, were shown to have had a different agenda --- one that was only recognized long after the fact. But that didn't negate the social issues and values basic to the concepts involved. Those were, and still are, often valuable after the shock and disillusionment fades and settles with the dust of the explosion that, yes, did cause hurt, but actually opened my/your/our eyes to various realities. Rick, this is a good thread topic. I, for one, have thought about and resented some of these very issues over the years.

As I've said before, it's terribly sad that the "babies" that were (and are) extremely positive aspects of Socialism, got tossed into the gutter with the washwater of Communism when that ism was blown apart in recent years. The enemy was not the various humane aspects of some proven socialist concepts. Rather, I feel that it is totalitarian repression, a lack of any human rights and the various murderous practices that are the actual enemy of any thinking person.

I was hurt to find out that hidden agendas existed for people who I admired so very much. Still, many lessons I learned from those folks were worth learning and are now, I hope, positve aspects of the person I have become.

(That said, I now have a difficult time looking seriously at the work of Joseph Campbell. Some things hurt too much, on a visceral level, for me to overlook them. Parting with one's illusions is not painless I have found.)

Love,

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: JedMarum
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 12:07 AM

I don't understand the Joe Campbell complaint? I have never heard or read any hint of Jew hatred, as mentioned earlier, and don't understand Art's complaint.

I think Joe's contribution has been remarkable. What am I missing?

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: JedMarum
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 12:24 AM

moonchild - I was speaking tongue in cheek.

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 12:50 AM

Jed, it is from the previous thread of last year, which T-bird mentioned, which you can find here. Just click on Art's postings and you will see what he is talking about.

Interesting thread, Rick. You've been busy lately.:-)

kat

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: JedMarum
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 01:09 AM

I read through the comments, Kat ... such a careful character assasination, all based on the opinions of one or two who claimed to have known him. I have his taped interviews with Bill Moyers (who surprisingly never asked Bill about these anti-semetic tendencies) and I saw Joe speak with nothing but respect for the Hebrew traditions. I have read some of Joe work, as well, and likewise never seen a hint of this anti-semetic streak.

I guess I need sounder basis for putting Joe in that category. Guilty by accusation doesn't wash with me.

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 01:14 AM

Well, Jed, I was just pointing you in the right direction so you'd know what Art was referring to, didn't say ya had to agree with it.**BG** I haven't read those posts in quite a long time, so would have to refresh my memory to know exactly what was said.

kat

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: Abby Sale
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 09:05 AM

Sandy: I don't believe Silber's agenda could ever be considered a secret one. Just a very strong one. We know John Lomax was a self-agrandizing, using, son of a bitch and was "hesitant" to give credit to others. It seems Lunsford was a racist, Leadbelly an Uncle Tom, Burl Ives variable and I don't like anybody very much. But that did not seem to affect the reporting of songs as far as I know (except for minimizing baudy material & that's a different cause). It's also different from "secret agenda." Is there something I'm missing?

Art: If you like, I'd be interested in specifics (or examples). We had a tendency to think of all folkies as left wing & humane-like because we grew up with that sort in the Revival. But we know that those source singers who taught the Revivalists banjo & mountain music were often insular & ultra-conservative. You mention deceipt, though and that is serious.

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 10:01 AM

My examples here may not be of hidden music agendas, but it is the best way I can relate to this discussion.
I have attented nutrition conferences only to realize later that the material presented was researched and presented by animal rights activists.
I have attended osteoporosis forums funded by the Milk Marketing Board.
I have been a speaker on The Benefits of Soybeans funded by a large soymilk company. I will never do that again
Canadian Dietetic Association has the following corporate partnerships: Milk Marketing Board, Sugar Industry, Meat Marketing Board, Pork Marketing Board, Egg Marketing Board.
Scientific research papers that show the benefits of one glass of red wine per day to reduce heart disease was funding by the red wine producers.
'Eggs aren't so bad for cholesterol after all' was funded by the Egg Marketing Board.
How about going out with a friend for lunch and at the end of a lovely time together being pitched to sell BlueGreen Algae, Amway or some other pyramid marketing product.

When I am exposed to these kind of situations, I try my best to discern where the information is coming from. Take from it what is of value, if any, and drop the rest.
But it does leave me feeling saddened with a bit of a heartache.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: alison
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 10:10 AM

didn't they carbon date the shroud.. and decide it was a Medieval hoax?

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 10:57 AM

They did, alison; still, it may well have been highly contaminated with all sorts of carbon-bearing junk from the last how-ever-many years, which would give a falsely low (i.e. too recent) result.

You should ask yourself, "is it actually important to Christianity or not?". If the answer's "no" (which it should be - most Christians have managed all their lives without ever hearing about the shroud), then it doesn't matter whether it's a fake or not.

Next question, if the answer's "yes", or you're still curious: "could it have been faked?". Never mind whether anyone in the Midde Ages might or might not know how to fool 20th century scientists! The answer to that seems to be a pretty definite "yes", since someone made a convincing fake for the BBC using mediaeval techniques and materials. And if it could be a fake, then it's best to assume it is. If it looks like a duck, and it waddles like a duck, and it quacks like a duck - it's a fake!

Steve

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 10:59 AM

Whoops! Sorry Alison (capitla A!) ...

And if it could be a fake, then it's best to assume it is. If it looks like a duck, and it waddles like a duck, and it quacks like a duck - it's a fake!

Steve

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: Art Thieme
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 11:00 AM

Sandy,

I have no direct knowledge of Joe Campbell's antisemitism. First, someone we both know mentioned it in passing to me in an E-mail after I'd said how much I admired Joe and his work. Then I just put "Joseph Campbell--- antisemitism" into a search engine and so much came up that I found it hard to discount all of it. It's not like he is running for public office and discrediting stuff surfaces as a dirty trick from the other side. I AM saddened by the fact that it has colored my feelings about someone who I truly admire and respect from his many fine works. I don't like it when idols get feet of clay---but maybe it just proves that we are all human and subject to this dark side of our beings.

Also, I see myself as more of a Socialist than a Democrat in that adding Socialist ideas to democratic values and Democracy is palatable, actually desireable, to me. FDR going for Social Security was correct. National health care for all would be correct---even at the expense of the rich (the rich = those that have extra cash.)

Still, this must be done within a system like the one we have where representatives of the people VOTE to make it happen because their constituents (we the people) want it to occur. It shouldn't be done, ever, by the tactics employed by any totalitarian system I've ever observed.

My disillusionment came from seeing moral and responsible people singing about love and peace and altruism and other things I believe in strongly , support nationalistic revolution and violence when it came to securing their organizations agendas. That left me, as a young kid with high ideals who was just getting into folk music, feeling a bit betrayed.

That's all I can tell you. It was how I felt. Hopefully, by hoping for the best while expecting anyone to do anything at any given time, depennding on the situation, I can be less amazed and/or hurt by whatever comes along the pike. That's possibly more Buddhist than anything else. So be it. Whatever.

It might be helpful to keep a certain organization in mind. It was one that Bruce Utah Phillips (the great man himself) once told me about. The organization was called Y. A. W. N.-------Those letters stood for Youth Against Whatever's Next. That just might be where the "one third of the people who are AGAINST EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME come from!!?? ;-)

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: Art Thieme
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 11:19 AM

Jed, I do understand the hurt that prompted you to call my statements about Joe. C. as character assasination. I feel the same hurt prcisely because I admire the man's work so much---same as you. When friends showe me the possibilities that strong antisemitic feelings were in the man, I was angry at them---pissed off someone was sayin' bad stuff about someone I thought highly of.What can I say other than hearing this shit blew me out of the water. I don't want to take it seriously, but now it's there for me--as it is for you. If you can just turn it off you're a better man than I am, Gunga Din.

Art Thieme (who has too much damn time on his hands to ruminate on crap like this)

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 11:31 AM

Art, Jed wasn't calling your words character assasination. I think he was referring to Brendan Gill's words, and the anecdotes that surfaced in response to Brendan Gill's portrait of Campbell.

I don't agree with Jed's characterization of this revision of Campbell's reputation as "character assasination". I think most of the people, including Gill, were giving their honest impressions of the man. One of the most revealing (in my opinion) statements came from Campbell's colleague, who intended his observation that "Joe tended to lump people together" as a statement in Cambell's defence.

T.

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 11:34 AM

Over the years, I have had a decided ambivalence toward the all this--I think that the trade of "folklorist" seems more like an endeavor in academic politics--with all the negatives that go along with that--

The emphasis always seems to be on creating and building the reputation of the folklorist, at any expense--graduate assistants, interns, and informants, are all handled as if they were property, and expendible property at that--

On the other hand, there is a great body of work that has been collected, that otherwise would have disappeared without a trace--

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 12:37 PM

Abby: Too many examples of dishonesty in reference to sources, unreported collations of texts from various sources, including using without credit material previously printed by others (often attached to tunes from other sources), allowing the myth of his role in getting Leadbelly out of prison to remain a popular legend in the folk world, the outrageous exploitation of Leadbelly and Iron Head Baker, paternalistic racism, etc., etc.

John A. Lomax did a lot GREAT collecting, preserving and disseminating much of the most powerful and beautiful music ever recorded in this country, but Porterfield and Wilgus have both made it very clear that his publications are surprisingly deceptive. I also feel that no one should have the right to "own" traditional American folksong, regardless of our debt to them for the gathering of it.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: GUEST,dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 01:30 PM

I know of NO collector or folklorist (with the possible exception of Vance Randolph) who didn't have a hidden agenda. And this hidden agenda colored his/her work. Whether it was Henry Ford's guys trying to prove that America had a culture untainted by the Brits or the Blacks, or the ones trying to prove that Southern Appalachia was really transplanted Elizabethan England, or the Socialists trying to show that folk music was the voice of social protest, they all had agendas.

Think of it like mining--all of them, regardless of intent, helped refine the ore. They didn't do a complete job, but all of them helped make it possible for us to get at the music and words. For which I thank them, from the bottom of my heart.

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 01:55 PM

I generally just read along and learn on these threads, but a couple of thoughts are bothering me here.

Dick's last post was quite true. ALL history is philosophy. I just went through this on another thread, but it bears repeating here. History (on any subject) is colored by the author. Often organizations and their followers are prone to ban or modify things to meet their standards. After this process goes through several individuals who summarize someone else to their ends and some who translate texts and songs between languages, its mish-mash to the 4th, 10th, or 100th power. As long as we are aware, its fine.

The danger is in the "condemning" of someone based on this process. I saw the same thing Jed did and wondered about Campbell on the previous thread, but let it go. At this point though, I again wonder what and how much is true and what is the "agenda" of someone else. Maybe Moyers had an agenda in not mentioning it. Or maybe he too could not document the alleged "anti-semitic agenda."

I suppose the final choice goes to each of us as readers of history on how we view and assimilate what we read. The Lomax stories of "abuse" shall we say, are well documented. For me, the jury is still out on Campbell's bigotry.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: JedMarum
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 03:09 PM

Art and OKI - I was not referring to Art's words as character assasinatio, I meant the indviduals who were quoted in the older posts.

And there may be something to the Joe Campbell, based upon your further research. I was bemoaning the fact that we ought not to be trashing joe without better evidence. I will pursue it. Like you I am disappointed, but the scholarship stands.

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 05:10 PM

According to Bill Moyers, Campbell freely acknowledged and renounced the anti-semitism that he had expressed as a younger man--

Campbell apparently said that it was the type of un-thinking bigotry that he acquired while growing up--and that as he grew older, he realized that it, like so many of the things that we accept, unquestioned, while growning up, was wrong, and that he worked very hard to recognize the old prejudices as they came up in his life, and to correct them.

I have heard Moyers discuss this, but I have not come across evidence of either the earlier anti-semitism or of Campbell's disaffection from it.

I know that there is widespread awareness, at least among Jews, of Campbell's anti-semitism, and there is also a degree of skepticism about his recanting--

I cannot speak to any of this--just mentioning what I have heard--

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: JedMarum
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 11:26 PM

Well, it sure sounds like there's a lot to this. I'd be interested in learning more, and will follow up on it. There's also an ironic anecdote I have to pass on; I went to pull one of Joe Campbell's book from my bookcase today, and it was stacked right next to Wanderings (Chaim Potok).

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 29 Apr 00 - 12:46 AM

I perhaps should have titled this "Slightly harder to find, although not exactly "hidden" alternative agendas in music scholarship". Just wouldn't have fit however.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm learning a lot. My knowledge of Joseph Campbell has not been adequate. I'm attempting to remedy that somewhat tonight. Geez, I wish I'd discovered the computer 10 years ago!

Sing Out's (and Silber et al) Communist affiliations never bothered me in the least. I figure anyone who wants to waste the sunshine and moonlight by going to political meetings (of ANY stripe) is going to be an awfully dull dinner guest.

Rick

Subject: RE: Hidden agendas within music scholarship
From: Abby Sale
Date: 29 Apr 00 - 09:43 PM

Dick: I think you're confusing hidden agenda with bias. I know you feel strongly that most collecters heavily biased their selections of songs to collect by their own, unique, definition of what "folk" is and proved this by "selective attention." I agree. But to my mind there is a wild difference. This is bias, or intellectual dishonesty or even fraud. But a hidden agenda is a sinister device for moving people to action in a subtle fashion. It uses the advertised agenda to sucker people in but moves their opinions or actions to aid some secret thing the suckrers aren't even aware of. This was mentioned by Rick at the top and especially by Little Neophyte. We're not talking about opinionated or biased or feet of clay, but a purposeful con job.

Again, are there examples of a real hidden agenda?