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BS: It was the guns (Columbine HS)

GUEST,BensSon 10 May 00 - 02:42 AM
The Shambles 10 May 00 - 04:34 AM
Joe Offer 10 May 00 - 06:10 AM
catspaw49 10 May 00 - 06:18 AM
kendall 10 May 00 - 07:29 AM
Dharmabum 10 May 00 - 08:37 AM
Grab 10 May 00 - 08:45 AM
Amos 10 May 00 - 09:11 AM
Whistle Stop 10 May 00 - 11:09 AM
GUEST 10 May 00 - 12:04 PM
Willie-O 10 May 00 - 12:46 PM
Metchosin 10 May 00 - 01:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 May 00 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,Common Sense 10 May 00 - 01:43 PM
GUEST,Aldus 10 May 00 - 02:38 PM
wysiwyg 10 May 00 - 02:44 PM
GUEST,James 10 May 00 - 02:50 PM
Whistle Stop 10 May 00 - 03:16 PM
Whistle Stop 10 May 00 - 03:17 PM
Whistle Stop 10 May 00 - 03:27 PM
wysiwyg 10 May 00 - 03:29 PM
Whistle Stop 10 May 00 - 03:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 May 00 - 03:39 PM
wysiwyg 10 May 00 - 03:41 PM
Lonesome EJ 10 May 00 - 03:47 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 May 00 - 04:48 PM
Amergin 10 May 00 - 05:18 PM
Grab 11 May 00 - 10:01 AM
Whistle Stop 11 May 00 - 10:43 AM
Peg 11 May 00 - 11:03 AM
Amergin 11 May 00 - 11:38 AM
GUEST,Aldus 11 May 00 - 12:11 PM
Lonesome EJ 11 May 00 - 12:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 May 00 - 01:19 PM
JPRameau 11 May 00 - 02:53 PM
Peg 11 May 00 - 03:00 PM
Amergin 11 May 00 - 03:06 PM
Midchuck 11 May 00 - 03:20 PM
Whistle Stop 11 May 00 - 03:27 PM
Midchuck 11 May 00 - 03:31 PM
Whistle Stop 11 May 00 - 03:34 PM
Amergin 11 May 00 - 03:41 PM
Peg 11 May 00 - 04:18 PM
JPRameau 11 May 00 - 05:31 PM
JPRameau 11 May 00 - 05:31 PM
GUEST,Cara 11 May 00 - 05:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 May 00 - 05:41 PM
Lonesome EJ 11 May 00 - 06:34 PM
Midchuck 11 May 00 - 06:44 PM
JPRameau 11 May 00 - 07:26 PM

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Subject: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: GUEST,BensSon
Date: 10 May 00 - 02:42 AM

For the life of me, I can't understand what could
have gone wrong in Littleton, Colorado. If only the
parents had kept their children away from the guns,
we wouldn't have had such a tragedy.

Yeah, it must have been the guns.

It couldn't have been because half of our children are
being raised in broken homes. It couldn't have been
because our children get to spend an average of 30
seconds in meaningful conversation with their parents
each day. After all, we give our children quality time.

It couldn't have been because we treat our children
as pets and our pets as children. It couldn't have
been because we place our children in day care centers
where they learn their socialization skills among
their peers under the law of the jungle while
employees who have no vested interest in the children
look on and make sure that no blood is spilled.

It couldn't have been because we allow our children
to watch, on average, seven hours of television a day
filled with the glorification of sex and violence that
isn't fit for adult consumption.

It couldn't have been because we allow our children to
enter into virtual worlds in which, to win the game,
one must kill as many opponents as possible in the
most sadistic way possible.

It couldn't have been because we have sterilized and
contracepted our families down to sizes so small that
the children we do have are so spoiled with material
things that they come to equate the receiving of the
material with love.

It couldn't have been because our children, who
historically have been seen as a blessing from God,
are now being viewed as either a mistake created
when contraception fails or inconveniences that
parents try to raise in their spare time.

It couldn't have been because we give two-year prison
sentences to teen-agers who kill their newborns.

It couldn't have been because we teach our children
that there is no God, there are no laws of morality
that transcend us, that everything is relative and
that actions don't have consequences. Take the
president - even he gets away with it.

Nah, it must have been the guns !

-Paul Harvey


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 May 00 - 04:34 AM

Thanks Paul. This may be of interest also Gun Debate IN SONG


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 May 00 - 06:10 AM

Paul Harvey has been broadcasting his view of the news since 1944. When I was a kid, I used to like listening to him. Now that I'm a little older, I find he tends to beg the question. Many of the things he cites may well have been factors that contributed to the killings, but I'll betcha the bullets came from guns.
I don't think banning firearms is the solution to all our social problems, but I do think Paul Harvey is a bit short in the logic department.
-Joe Offer, Good DAY!-


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 May 00 - 06:18 AM

Yeah Joe............Let's just go to "Page Two".........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: kendall
Date: 10 May 00 - 07:29 AM

I get really tired of that "broken home" crap. I and many others I know grew up in broken homes and we didnt kill anyone. Why? In my case it was simply Fear of punishment.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Dharmabum
Date: 10 May 00 - 08:37 AM

I wrote this song on April 20th 1999 while watching the story unfold on tv.

SWEET COLUMBINE

April 20 just another day,

Oh columbine,

Except for those who got in the way,

Oh sweet columbine,

The class of 19hundred ninety nine,

With the smell of smoke& columbine,

Fifteen gone before their time,

In sweet columbine.

Some are injured some are dead,

Oh columbine,

It could've been our kids instead,

Oh sweet columbine,

It might have been you or me,

No one knows what their fate will be,

It could've been our destiny,

To be in sweet columbine.

The experts sit and anylize,

Oh columbine,

Won't stop the tears falling from our eyes,

Oh sweet columbine,

They'll never find the reason to be,

Anything but stupidity,

The answers up to you and me,

In sweet columbine.

What kind of boys could cause this pain,

Oh columbine,

Something snapped & they went insane,

Oh sweet columbine,

What could we do what could we say,

That might have changed that fatefull day,

This will never fade away,

In sweet columbine.

There is a flower that grows in spring,

Oh columbine,

Upon the graves of children gone,

Oh sweet columbine,

Where they will lie for the rest of time,

In a bed of columbine,

Their memory burning in our minds,

In sweet columbine.

April 20 just another day,

Oh columbine,

Except for those who got in the way,

Oh sweet columbine,

No matter what the reasons be,

It'll never make sense to me,

Cause it could never happen here you see,

In sweet columbine.

For all the people who have lost children to voilent crime. Ron.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Grab
Date: 10 May 00 - 08:45 AM

Read Neal Stephenson's "Interface" - a very good commentary on society. A good summary would be that if parents just don't give a shit about raising their kids with values, then they get kids without values. And that's the problem. A disruptive bully isn't "expressing himself", he's a spoiled brat taking advantage, and needs an adult to step in and discipline him. Basically, if you learn you can get away with stuff, what's to stop you doing it again?

Let's face it, some kids are naturally good, and some plain aren't, and most are in between somewhere. Best example was a kid across the road from us - a nice kid, but prone to being disruptive simply cos he could get away with it. His mum would do the "if you do that again, ...." bit, but would never actually do anything. My mum 'babysat' him fairly often, and the first time over he played up. She told him to stop or she'd give him a smack, he carried on, so she slapped his leg. The effect was a total shock for him, the first time anyone actually did what they said, and basically he didn't give her any more trouble. Make of that what you will.

Grab.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Amos
Date: 10 May 00 - 09:11 AM

Nothing says it better than a firm bump against Reality; it's a great cure for head-noise and the kind of psychotic lack of orientation that many kids suffer from. It is easy to forget how MUCH orientation someone needs to be able to relate to most things in our highly derivative, abstract and insulated culture.

But, as regards the Columbine kids, the parents have taken an awful beating on both sides of the killing zone. The two shooters had some really bizarre stuff going on inside them, of that we can be sure. But it is a little too easy to attribute that to the things Paul Harvey rants about. Even calling it "bizarre", an easy thing to do, makes it a little harder to see, doesn't it. Has anyone ever gathered any real data about the boys and what their real lives (in contrast to their media profiles or their school counselor profiles) were like? Each of them had some kind of screaming emergency or major conflict or some thing of that nature locked up behind the acceptable social interface they showed the world up untiltheir last morning. Guns firing bullets were a solution, but I have not heard that anyone has really tracked down the problem.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 10 May 00 - 11:09 AM

There were lots of problems there, I'm sure. I'd love to think that we could solve all these problems today, or this week, or this year, and end up with nothing but happy, well-adjusted kids from now on. I'm not optimistic, though. For the time being, I'd like to see if we could do something to keep guns away from people who might have these undiagnosed and unsolved problems. Restricting access to guns is not a perfect solution to the many problems facing our society, but it's a little more pragmatic than just saying we should solve ALL those other problems first.

As for parental discipline, I agree that it's needed, but let's recognize its limits. Remember, the Columbine shooters shot themselves when they were done shooting the other kids -- does anyone really think that fear of a spanking would have deterred them?


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 00 - 12:04 PM

I have worked in schools for many years and I bet that any teacher could tell you that a child is who he is going to become by grade three. These kids live in homes where there is no parental supervision, little parental involvment in the school and a a lack of understanding as to what it means to be a member of a community. A student I taught has recently been convicted of murder...it came as no surpise to anyone who has know this child since he was about eight. He grew up in a culture that saw guns as toys, saw others as victimes and had no regard "values". The right to be a parent often mitigates against these poor children as they are forced to live in that environment simply because some misguided social idea says that the parents have the right to ignore , abuse and set atrocious examples for them. When will we ever learn ? As for broken homes causing violence....Not all single parent families are "broken"....the things I related above are the cause of many a child turning into some monstrous replica of a human being.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Willie-O
Date: 10 May 00 - 12:46 PM

>It couldn't have been because we teach our children that there is no God, there are no laws of morality that transcend us, that everything is relative and that actions don't have consequences.

This kind of bullshit--Harvey's whole spiel, not just the snippet above-- really gets to me, it is an attempt to promote religious intolerance by attributing several negative characteristics at once to those who don't share your theological viewpoint.

I don't believe in God, my kids know this; I don't "teach them that there is no God"; that's a theocratic approach. I damn sure don't tell them that everything is relative and that there's no such thing as morality. This is a well-worn sham debate tactic.

Last month on the anniversary of the Columbine thing, (to the minute) an alienated 15-year-old in a high school near where I grew up pulled a knife in computer lab and used it on several people, including himself. Five injured counting the perpetrator, none seriously. It was upsetting, traumatic, became a media circus for awhile, and is still the subject of heated debate, accusations and counter-accusations But nobody died. Because he didn't have a gun.

(Handgun permits are very hard to obtain in Canada, therefore few houses have easily-concealed weapons lying around.)

People that use a tragedy like Columbine to promote their own theocratic, narrow-minded agenda AND DEFEND the widespread availability of extremely lethal weaponry, they're the ones that need their values examined.

Willie-O


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Metchosin
Date: 10 May 00 - 01:36 PM

couldn't agree more Willie-O.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 00 - 01:36 PM

Gun debate IN SONG


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: GUEST,Common Sense
Date: 10 May 00 - 01:43 PM

When you strike your thumb with the hammer, don't blame the hammer. Like a hammer, firearms are tools. It is a tool of precision and of destruction.

Restricting access to someone with an 'undiagnosed' condition is not possible without restricting or infringing upon the rights of others to keep and bear arms. That right is the key to our freedom.

Scottish games are a holdover from when large rocks and heavy poles were used to train for war by the Scots. The Scots did this because thier ability to keep and bear arms was denied by the King of England.

That King's successor wanted to do the same in the Colonies. He sent troops to sieze the colonial's arms at Concord Mass. En Route at Lexington, a shot was fired that was hear 'round the world.

We do have restrictions on those already diagnosed. We have controls on youths carrying firearms. We do not enforce those existing laws yet. Let's keep pressure on the politicians to enforce those laws now. It will work. If it doesn't, then we can worry about new laws.

In reality, it is the population who enforces any compliance with gun control laws now. The honest citizen complies, the criminals do not.

Common sense.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: GUEST,Aldus
Date: 10 May 00 - 02:38 PM

Dear Common sense, I hate to be blunt, By you ought to change your name......guns are made for one reason...to kill things....they are not toys...they are weapons and nothing they destroy requires destruction by private citizens. As for the Bloody king of England nonsense..it is time to get into the 20th century...many countries have won and maintained freedom without resorting to the foolishness of the "right to bear arms". I think there are many of us who find that arguement specious and worn out. Guns ought to be banned, plain and simple,,,over four thosand American children were killed by guns last year...that alone should make it clear that a ban is essential..in all countries. And don"t resort to that overworked but illogical statement that guns don"t kill people..people do. As for the discussion about blaming the hammer..it is absurd..however, if the hammer was designed to hit my thumb I would blame it..guns are designed to kill..we should blame them for it.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 May 00 - 02:44 PM

I'm sorry, I am spending the day helping to clean up other people's messes, and I am damn crabby about it. Even here among 'Catpals.

The question isn't, WAS IT THIS, THAT, OR THE OTHER?

It's, WHAT IS IT NOW?

Because yes, it WAS all of the things mentioned, and more. Not which ones-- ALL of them.

But what it IS? NOW?? Easy. You. Me.

See a problem the world needs to solve? Go ahead, solve it, today, as you see fit, in your own backyard, powerfully and with all your passion for it. Now. Today. Or as soon as you see what to do.

Start with what you can see, pick anything, and ACT. Because that is what it really is. ACTION. Taken. Or not. By you. And me.

~Susan~


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: GUEST,James
Date: 10 May 00 - 02:50 PM

Susan; I didn't understand a word you said.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 10 May 00 - 03:16 PM

Susan, I understood it, but have a hard time relating it to the discussion at hand. I have solved this problem in "my own back yard" by refusing to own a gun, or allow one in my house. That doesn't solve the problem, which still may encroach upon my backyard at any time. Given the mobility of society and commerce in the modern world, the only way to solve this problem in my back yard is to enact and enforce laws that would severely restrict the availability of guns in our society.

I'm really not enthusiastic about getting into the gun control debate again in this forum -- it simply is not what I come to the Mudcat for. But I have to agree with Aldus; the argument that we need unrestricted access to as much firepower as we can get our hands on so that the King of England will stay away is absurd, and the Second Amendment argument is only seriously advanced by people with little understanding of the Constitution.

As for the argument that we need to be able to match firepower with our own government in order to guarantee our freedom, that is madness. My government possesses "arms" in abundance, including heavy conventional weapons, nuclear bombs, nerve gas, biological weapons, etc. I can't hope to match that, nor would I want to. The threat that concerns me now, in the year 2000, is not from my own government -- it is from a society that is growing increasingly violent and irrational at the level of the individual. THAT is what is directly threatening my freedom today; the Redcoats don't even come into it.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 10 May 00 - 03:17 PM

Susan, I understood it, but have a hard time relating it to the discussion at hand. I have solved this problem in "my own back yard" by refusing to own a gun, or allow one in my house. That doesn't solve the problem, which still may encroach upon my backyard at any time. Given the mobility of society and commerce in the modern world, the only way to solve this problem in my back yard is to enact and enforce laws that would severely restrict the availability of guns in our society.

I'm really not enthusiastic about getting into the gun control debate again in this forum -- it simply is not what I come to the Mudcat for. But I have to agree with Aldus; the argument that we need unrestricted access to as much firepower as we can get our hands on so that the King of England will stay away is absurd, and the Second Amendment argument is only seriously advanced by people with little understanding of the Constitution.

As for the argument that we need to be able to match firepower with our own government in order to guarantee our freedom, that is madness. My government possesses "arms" in abundance, including heavy conventional weapons, nuclear bombs, nerve gas, biological weapons, etc. I can't hope to match that, nor would I want to. The threat that concerns me now, in the year 2000, is not from my own government -- it is from a society that is growing increasingly violent and irrational at the level of the individual. THAT is what is directly threatening my freedom today; the Redcoats don't even come into it.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 10 May 00 - 03:27 PM

Gee, it was so good I had to say it twice. Sorry about that; it's a computer thing. (There I go, blaming the tool again...)


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 May 00 - 03:29 PM

Whistle Stop, this is not to argue, but to encourage you to the additional action you name as necessary above.

You said, "Given the mobility of society and commerce in the modern world, the only way to solve this problem in my back yard is to enact and enforce laws that would severely restrict the availability of guns in our society. "

OK, what would be the first thing you could do to move in that direction? What would be the possibly-small step that you could take that could have a powerful result? What is the passion that would move you to take it?

A wise person once told me, "It takes longer if you don't start." I'm not here to say who has started and who hasn't, or how far anyone has gotten. But some have not started or need to re-start. And it must also be true that "It takes longer if you don't keep going."

I guess my passion on this topic is ACTION, because although I can imagine loving each arguer enough to discuss all possible sides, I can't justify the time that would be wasted doing it. It would delay my own action. We are called to action, every day. I know I don't answer it as fully or promptly as is justified, and I guess being as crabby as I am today my opinion probably came out like I have it all solved, tra la di dah. I just would rather see a thread that has all brags in it-- what I did today to stop killing, what I dream of doing tomorrow, what I see others doing....

But then, to follow my own principle, I guess I would need to start that thread myself.

See how this approach works?

~S~


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 10 May 00 - 03:37 PM

Praise, I agree with you. The first thing most of us in a democracy should do to bring about change is vote; I do that. The second thing is to advocate particular positions, in the hopes of being persuasive enough to convince others to vote the same way we do. I do that too. Doesn't sound like "action" in quite the same way that manning the barricades does, but it's kind of how democracy works, and I believe in it. Perhaps this isn't the ideal forum in which to apply my powers of persuasion to this issue, but who knows? In my more confident moments, I like to think that I can win some hearts and minds with my eloquence. Dare to dream.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 00 - 03:39 PM

"Scottish games are a holdover from when large rocks and heavy poles were used to train for war by the Scots. The Scots did this because their ability to keep and bear arms was denied by the King of England."

Now that's a brilliant idea. The right to bear arms really means the right to toss the caber and so forth...


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 May 00 - 03:41 PM

Whistle Stop,

I like talking with you. See the new Simple Heroes' thread I just began as a result of our short encounter in this thread. Hope to see you there.

Personal message me anytime!

~S~


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 10 May 00 - 03:47 PM

This "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is such unmitigated horseshit, that it's difficult to believe that some otherwise intelligent individuals resort to it. With that logic, rocket launchers, handgrenades and Sherman tanks are basically harmless unless they fall into the hands of the criminal element: therefore they should be legal? It is a matter of degree. Klebold and Harris could not have wrought the kind of wholesale slaughter they achieved at Columbine with knives, slingshots or even bolt action carbines. To flatly state that a criminal will use a rock to kill someone if he can't find an AK47 is a bogus point that has no relevance to the gun control argument.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 00 - 04:48 PM

In 1996 a member of a gun club went into an infants' school at Dunblane in Scotland, and killed 15 children and a teacher, and wounded another 10 children and three teachers, using guns which he legally possessed.

Prince Philip commented that it was silly to talk about banningb handguns because oif this - he said that it would be possible to take a cricket bat into a school and beat children to death with it. So should cricket bat be banned?

The consensus was that Prince Philip was talking out of the back of his trousers, not uncharacteristically for him. Under heavy popular pressure - since one school massacre was seen as one too many by most people - the Tory government brought in significant further restrictions on handguns. And the new Labour government kept a promise made during the elections, and banned private possession of handguns.

Clearly Prince Philip's logic has more resonance in the United States. So it's odd that people opposed to gun control seem so fierce about "the King of England" - since the husband of the Queen of England is so clearly on their wavelength.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Amergin
Date: 10 May 00 - 05:18 PM

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ............


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Grab
Date: 11 May 00 - 10:01 AM

Prince Philip was quite right. The guy involved in Dunblane was found by a doctor to be mentally unstable and unfit to own a gun. But bcos this doctor wasn't the same doctor who issued the licence, there wasn't anything he could do about it. In other words, a completely daft condition of the UK gun laws, which contributed to it. As a result, a section of the population practicing the perfectly OK sport of shooting have been shut down.

And for anyone who says that shooting isn't a sport, I'd ask them just what fencing, javelin, discus, archery and darts started off as - all of these were designed as weapons of war, and could still be used to injure or kill people today. Or on the unarmed side, there's all the various martial arts too - judo is an Olympic sport, but the techniques were originally used in battle to pin down a man in armour so that your mate could slice his head off!

But carrying guns on the street, and distributing them to just anyone "for self-defence" - that's just daft.

Grab.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 11 May 00 - 10:43 AM

I'm happy that people like sports. But we're weighing sporting interests on the one hand against dead kids on the other -- an easy choice for me. Take up golf; I'm sure nobody would have an issue with that.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Peg
Date: 11 May 00 - 11:03 AM

thanks Aldus, Whistle Stop, EJ and the other voices of reason...If I hear one more person say guns are merely tools and we have so many mindless gun deaths only because of people and their horrible godlessness and sad upbringings, I'm gonna go shoot someone with an easily-obtainable weapon of mass destruction...I mean, I could use a knife or a big rock or some poison to express my rage but a gun is just so much faster and more lethal!!! Why I barely even have to blink or expend any effort, just pull the trigger and BLAM! instant gratification...


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Amergin
Date: 11 May 00 - 11:38 AM

Guns are merely tools and the reason we have so many tragedies like Columbine are because of the lack of god in schools and the lack of two parent homes.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: GUEST,Aldus
Date: 11 May 00 - 12:11 PM

Tools for what ?


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 11 May 00 - 12:30 PM

Personally, I find it easier to drive nails with a hammer than with the butt of a 44 Mag.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 00 - 01:19 PM

As I said, "Clearly Prince Philip's logic has more resonance in the United States."


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: JPRameau
Date: 11 May 00 - 02:53 PM

I am not going to take sides in this, because I am just a piano player (and please, no comments about "Shoot the Piano Player"!) and so somebody else generally does the talking and books the gigs.

The thing that I don't understand is why you all keep dredging this issue up again and again. Everyone justs gets mad and then gets madder, and says the same things. There are a few people who have walked away from this discussion group in disgust and even fear from the bad feelings that have poured out here. What is the point?

I would honestly be afraid to be in a room with people talking the way that you are talking here. Maybe some of you would have guns, but even the ones that are against guns sound like you wouldn't hestitate to draw blood with anything handy.

Maybe you don't have to read this thread if you don't want to, and maybe some people don't, but take it from me, a longtime lurker, a lot of people read this and don't say anything. Anyway, I don't see how you can just cut over to a thread about some old song without carrying the bad feelings with you, and without remembering that someone came close to threatening to shoot you in another thread.

I had music theory question, and I hate music theory, but there are a couple of people here who know their stuff and have patience with those of us that don't, so I sent a private post to one of them, only to be told that he was out and for good, because of some of this sort of stuff.

If I want to hear all the gun talk, I just turn on the TV or radio, or open the paper. But if I want to hear about music, there is only this one place, and it seems like pretty soon everybody worth talking to will be chased away.

JP


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Peg
Date: 11 May 00 - 03:00 PM

JPRameau; If you are referring to my post... I wasn't actually threatening to shoot anyone; that was meant with complete and utter tongue-in-cheek sarcasm and I am not sure why you didn't get that...I hope no one else is as literal-minded as you are.

yes, gun-toting morons screaming about their Second Amendment rights make me crazy, but I am not about to hurt anyone over it, get real!!!!!!

Peg, total pacifist


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Amergin
Date: 11 May 00 - 03:06 PM

BTW, had my tongue in my cheek so hard it was drilling through to the outside, when I posted the above comment. It was in response to Peg's post. Sorry, I should have put TIC afterwards. Just figured that you all would have seen it.

Amergin


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Midchuck
Date: 11 May 00 - 03:20 PM

If you find it necessary to characterize people who disagree with you as "morons," just by virtue of the fact that they disagree with you, then there may be some element of reasonableness in your hoplophobia. A person who can't argue a societal issue without getting into the use of insulting terms for people who take the opposite position may not have his/her behavior under primarily intellectual, rather than emotional, control, and may, therefore, have no business owning or possessing firearms, or anything sharp, or baseball bats, for that matter. But why generalize to people in general?

(I realize it's wrong to get personal in a negative way on this list, but hey, I'm a moron, I can't be blamed.)

Peter.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 11 May 00 - 03:27 PM

Peter/Midchuck -- What's "hoplophobia"? No criticism intended here, just curious.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Midchuck
Date: 11 May 00 - 03:31 PM

Uncontrollable fear of weapons...

From the Greek hoplon, a tool, weapon...

Same root as hoplite, a heavily armed foot soldier in classical times.

(I know that, not because of my classical education, but because I had to look it up myself, first time I saw it.)

Peter.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 11 May 00 - 03:34 PM

I tried looking it up before posting that message, but couldn't find it. Thanks for filling me in; word origins fascinate me.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Amergin
Date: 11 May 00 - 03:41 PM

Here while we're at it let's discuss something like abortion, prayer in schools, gays in the military, or any other sensitive subject we can think of.

Amergin


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Peg
Date: 11 May 00 - 04:18 PM

re: my use of the word "morons" I did not mean to imply that I think EVERY peron who is pro-gun is a moron, I was characterizing those who maniacally defend their right to tote such deadly things about while citing an arcane, archaic, old document which does not relate in any way to the way our current society functions...THOSE folk are, I think, morons...

just my opinion, and you may disagree...and there is, BTW, nothing "uncontrollable" about my "fear", I have spent plenty of time around guns and safe gun users...and my views on the subject are carefully considered and thought out after many years...

If the laws aren't being enforced, and there is nothing to show that is changing anytime soon, people are gonna die. Best solution; take the goddam things away. Find something else to play with, Learn to bow hunt and fish for your food. It is that simple.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: JPRameau
Date: 11 May 00 - 05:31 PM

There is nothing left to say here. If you can't see how one insult leads to another, perhaps it is no wonder that you are surprised when people start shooting at each other.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: JPRameau
Date: 11 May 00 - 05:31 PM

There is nothing left to say here. If you can't see how one insult leads to another, perhaps it is no wonder that you are surprised when people start shooting at each other.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: GUEST,Cara
Date: 11 May 00 - 05:37 PM

I think this thread has been very civil and reasonable for the most part and I hope it stays that way. Obviously this is a discussion that some don't tire of, and so they should be able to discuss it. Although it's been said over and over, if you don't want to read about guns, hey--don't click on the threads with GUN in the title. It truly is that easy.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 00 - 05:41 PM

"Morons", and other words like that, have been the subject of a couple of threads just recently.

Here's a dictionary definition of the word: "A term used by American psychologists and criminologists of children and of adult persons of feeble, undeveloped or degenerate mind or character."

Which in my view is a disgusting definition and makes this a disgusting word to use in any context. For a couple of stories about people whom the aforesaid "American psychologists and criminologists" would no doubt have called "morons", click here.

And I suppose that's thread drift, if you like, but I think this thread could do with a bit of thread drift. As JPRameau says, we really aren't going to get anywhere with this.

But as for why it keeps on coming up, it seems to come up up every time there's another gun massacre in a school in America, which seems to happen pretty frequently. Wouldn't it be great if that stopped happening?


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 11 May 00 - 06:34 PM

I characterized the "guns don't kill people , people do" as a horseshit argument used by erstwhile intelligent people. I certainly didn't call them morons. It just strikes me as a gross oversimplification, a way of not having to consider the real aspects of the problem. I'm not mad at anybody, other than maybe McGrath of Harlow, and he's agreeing with me.

PS. I am not afraid of Hoplites, although centurions do put me on edge.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: Midchuck
Date: 11 May 00 - 06:44 PM

How does calling it horseshit make it less valid?

Guns (without people to use them) don't kill people. People do kill people. Many of them use guns. Many use other things. A great many use cars, but no one even mentions restricting access to cars.

There are a lot of people on this list who think they can use as nasty language to others as they wish because their motives are good. Since I'm one of the horseshit morons who likes guns, I have to be civil. Doesn't seem fair, somehow...

Peter.


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Subject: RE: IT WAS THE GUNS-
From: JPRameau
Date: 11 May 00 - 07:26 PM

For me, the issue is not really guns. but the "Make my day" sort of thinking that allows people to move easily into verbal and then physical violence when they don't care for what they see or hear.

Pardon me for bluntness here, but it seems that Americans, whether for or against gun control, often seem ready and willing to make this jump.


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