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Santana - The Grammy & Plagiarism???

MK 11 May 00 - 09:01 PM
Bob Bolton 12 May 00 - 01:44 AM
MK 12 May 00 - 07:19 AM
Callie 12 May 00 - 08:30 AM
MK 12 May 00 - 09:17 AM
Kim C 12 May 00 - 10:06 AM
Callie 12 May 00 - 10:15 AM
MK 12 May 00 - 11:35 AM
GUEST,Airto 12 May 00 - 11:39 AM
Whistle Stop 12 May 00 - 01:15 PM
raredance 12 May 00 - 09:46 PM
GUEST 12 May 00 - 10:37 PM
catspaw49 12 May 00 - 10:51 PM
MK 13 May 00 - 01:45 PM
Rick Fielding 13 May 00 - 02:25 PM
GUEST,Raphael Mota 04 Jun 18 - 04:00 PM
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Subject: Santana - The Grammy & Plagurism???
From: MK
Date: 11 May 00 - 09:01 PM

Hi all.
(I need to know whether I am still rational or have completely lost my mind. Please, no flames. *BG*)

To those of you who have Carlo Santana's Grammy Award winning album "Supernatural", listen carefully the 11th cut on the album called "El Farol".

As soon as the melody kicks in (after the intro) tell me that for the next 8 bars it isn't an almost dead lift including chord changes, of Fly Me To The Moon. It repeats throughout the entire tune.

Have I missed something here, or shouldn't he be getting his ass sued off by someone somewhere????

By the way a most excellent album for the most part. I question his choice of using rappers for some of the tunes...in the same way my stomach turned hearing Bono (U2) sing a duet with Frank Sinatra. But Carlos's playing as always is truly inspired.


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Subject: RE: Santana - The Grammy & Plagurism???
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 12 May 00 - 01:44 AM

G'day MichaelK,

Plagiarism ... quote ... reference ... homage ... It all depends on who is talking and about what.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Santana - The Grammy & Plagurism???
From: MK
Date: 12 May 00 - 07:19 AM

Apparently if you use more than a certain number of notes (or bars? ---can't remember which) you've crossed the line beteen "quoting" and stealing, as far as copyright infringement.

I certainly think that is the case here, but since I don't speak or understand Spanish, for all I know, the title of the song could be "Fly Me To The Moon". (I doubt it though.)

This melody and chord changes just seemed extremely obvious to me upon the very first listen, played it for my wife (who like myself is well versed in jazz standards) and she agreed that it was really really close, so I'm curious as to how it got by so MANY people?


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Subject: RE: Santana - The Grammy & Plagurism???
From: Callie
Date: 12 May 00 - 08:30 AM

I don't know the song and can only comment that although not very inventive, it can't be plagiarism to copy a chord progression. Look at "How High the Moon" and "Anthropology". Same chords. Charlie Parker "ripped them off". Look at the number of songs that use a Rhythm Progression: eg Ornithology (Parker again), Straighten Up & Fly Right, That Cat Is High and on and on.

I can only imagine that Santana - who must know that progression -was doing something inventive with it??

--Callie


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Subject: RE: Santana - The Grammy & Plagurism???
From: MK
Date: 12 May 00 - 09:17 AM

Callie, I'm not simply talking about the chord progression here, I'm talking about the melody.

Did you ever see the movie "Wall Street" with Michael Douglas and Charlie Sheen?

Fly Me To The Moon, was the opening song in that movie.


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Subject: RE: Santana - The Grammy & Plagurism???
From: Kim C
Date: 12 May 00 - 10:06 AM

I'm Thinking Tonight Of My Blue Eyes and The Great Speckled Bird are the same song...


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Subject: RE: Santana - The Grammy & Plagurism???
From: Callie
Date: 12 May 00 - 10:15 AM

I didn't realise you were talking MELODY. Well, he's just downright RUDE then, if he hasn't acknowledged his source in the credits. Funny, coz "Fly Me" is a pretty well known tune. Hard to get away with it. Have you thought of dropping him a line about it? I don't know if megastars would write back to you, but it could make for interesting correspondence.


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Subject: RE: Santana - The Grammy & Plagurism???
From: MK
Date: 12 May 00 - 11:35 AM

Will those who actually have the album mentioned in the first message, respond and give me your take on my question? Thanks.


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Subject: RE: Santana - The Grammy & Plagurism???
From: GUEST,Airto
Date: 12 May 00 - 11:39 AM

I don't know if those of you outside Europe have ever heard of the Eurovision Song Contest. For your sakes I hope you haven't, because it's unbelievably corny. Its main audience nowadays appears to be people into post-modern irony, and it seems to have gained special status among the kitsch-loving tendency in the gay community. Each country enters a song and the Irish have recently shown a rather dubious aptitude for winning it. Each year in Ireland they hold a national song contest to select the Eurovision entry. There are hundreds of entries of which six or so are shot-listed for a TV broadcast and the public then vote for their favourite. A few years back it was discovered a few days after the event that the winning song had the identical air to Julie Felix's Moonlight. Deep embarrasment all round. If I had been watching that night I could have told them because I've had that song on a 45 single since I was barely a lad.


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Subject: RE: Santana - The Grammy & Plagurism???
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 12 May 00 - 01:15 PM

I don't have the album or know the song, but what the hell, I'm going to comment anyway. It's customary, and completely respected, in jazz circles to lift melodies from other songs and rework them, insert them into other songs, etc. Sometimes it's done with a knowing wink, but a lot of time times the musician is too damn busy thinking through what he's doing to try to make it obvious to others that he knows what he's doing.

"Fly Me to the Moon" is a standard, and nobody is going to lift that tune in a dishonest attempt to "get away with it". More likely Carlos (who has one foot in jazz circles) knew exactly what he was doing, figured other people would know what he was doing, but just didn't think there was anything wrong with it. I don't either. With all the millions of songs that are out there (constructed of the same 12 notes that we're all accustomed to using), if we have to get too obsessive about avoidance or attribution, it will have a deadening effect on our creativity. I realize that this concept could be abused if taken too far, but to me, creative freedom is more sacred than ownership.


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Subject: RE: Santana - The Grammy & Plagurism???
From: raredance
Date: 12 May 00 - 09:46 PM

An interesting account on what constitutes a song and who gets credit for it was found a couple days ago at the Salon site. Here is a copy & paste: http://www.salon.com/ent/music/feature/2000/05/10/pop_song/index.html

rich r


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Subject: RE: Santana - The Grammy & Plagurism???
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 00 - 10:37 PM

As Whistle Stop alluded, this is apparently a device Santana has added to his repertoire fairly recently. On his *Live In South America* CD, Sacred Fire, he does this quite often during solos on some of his older tunes, almost as if he were amusing himself. I heard the little half-step melody run to *Paint It Black* by the Rolling Stones in the middle of one of his solos, parenthetically placed in such a way there was no mistaking it was intentional, as if he were trying to make it so obvious the audience couldn't help catching the allusion. The result was it sounded awkward and gimmicky.

Compare and contrast to a tune on Chick Corea's Akoustic Band's CD, Alive. Chick plays a couple of bars of the song the Scarecrow sang in The Wizard Of Oz (If I only had a brain, etc....), woven deftly into the melody as an afterthought, like the lingering fragrance of a beautiful woman after she's left the room.


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Subject: RE: Santana - The Grammy & Plagurism???
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 May 00 - 10:51 PM

Michael, you were around the jazz world for a long time and you know its a relatively common practice whether done as mentioned above in homage or in jest. I remember Clark Terry tailing every exchange on a piece with the last 4 bars of Pop Goes the Weasel.........

OK .... Quick Test: Hum the opening strain of "Autumn in New York" and now do "Moonlight in Vermont."

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Santana - The Grammy & Plagurism???
From: MK
Date: 13 May 00 - 01:45 PM

'Spaw,
It is one thing to (in musical terms) "quote" another song or piece of melody, during the course of performing a solo (which of course is considering a compliment or tipping of the hat to the original composer), as opposed to using the actual MELODY of another well known song, as the focal point and backbone of a new so-called original tune.

Having spent a good part of my professional music career as a "jazzer" of course I am aware of the difference.

But I'm talking about something altogether different here that no one seems to grasp, possibly because they haven't referenced the specific song on the album I am talking about.

Yes there are clearly similarities to Autumn In New York and Moonlight in Vermont, but there are enough differences as well to know that these are two entirely separate songs.

The main head (chorus, refrain, whatever you want to call it) of the Santana tune I mentioned, to my mind clearly violates copyright...and it is so blatant, that it astonishes me that something so obvious could have gotten by Carlos, the producer of the album, the publisher, the general public, and the Grammy nominating committee. That is not to say that the song isn't nice. It is. In fact with just a few exceptions, the album is bloody brilliant and wonderful to listen to.

Anyway. I'm done talking about. Obviously I am in a class by myself on this one, and have therefore concluded I must be insane. *BG*


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Subject: RE: Santana - The Grammy & Plagurism???
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 May 00 - 02:25 PM

Yup, I've heard 'em both, and I'd have to say Carlos did a substantial amount of "borrowing". As to his motives (assuming he WAS conscious of it...and I'm not convinced of that) who knows? Has there been anything in print about conflicts and lawsuits?

Remember George Harrison and the infamous "My Sweet Lord". He payed big...but under no circumstances did he try to "steal" the Chiffons "He's So Fine".

I've never known a really creative artist who wouldn't be horrified, knowing they had accidentally lifted a complete melody line. Perhaps Carlos worked it out behind the scenes. I sure would!

Rick


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Subject: RE: Santana - The Grammy & Plagiarism???
From: GUEST,Raphael Mota
Date: 04 Jun 18 - 04:00 PM

I didn't knew the Santana's song "El Farol" till now, when I'm first listening , and I THOUGHT THE VERY SAME THING , The first thing I thought was the song FLY ME TO THE MOON..

I've seen this before with a famous pop song here in Brazil called "Lanterna dos Afogados" which afterwards I found identical (melodically) with a song called "Pensiero Stupendo" ..

it sounds like plagiarism to me


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