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Origins: Hound Dog?
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Subject: Query: Hound Dog? From: harpgirl Date: 13 May 00 - 06:51 PM ...Dr. Peterson, who sits beside me in the flesh at this very moment, is pondering who made the original recording of "Hound Dog". Was it Big Mama Thornton or Big Boy Crudup or neither of the above? harpgirl |
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: catspaw49 Date: 13 May 00 - 09:44 PM Hi Harpy........The Blue Flame Cafe Bios gives the song credit of course to Crudup, but gives the "first recording" credit to Thornton. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: Joe Offer Date: 13 May 00 - 09:47 PM Funny you should ask while I'm listening to Elvis, Harpy. Here's a quote from David Ewen's American Popular Songs: From the Revolutionary War to the Present (1966, Random House) Hound Dog, words and music by Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller (1956). Introduced by Willie Mae Thornton in 1953, but published in 1956 and popularized that year by Elvis Presley in an RCA Victor recording that sold over two million disks.-Joe Offer, in respectful disagreement with 'Spaw- |
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: catspaw49 Date: 13 May 00 - 09:53 PM Sorry Joe,,,,You're right on the authorship. Crudup covered it too but wrote "Its Alright Mama" which was Elvis' first biggie. Sorry....wasn't thinking. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: Sourdough Date: 13 May 00 - 10:56 PM I've never been a fan of Elvis' and didn' think much one way or another about "Hound DOg but recently I heard Big Mama Thornton's recording of that song. Suddenly the song had power. Now I find from this thread that it was written by Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller! Their versatility is astounding. Sourdough |
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: catspaw49 Date: 13 May 00 - 11:07 PM I told Joe when I wrote and apologized for screwing up that I too was a fan of Lieber and Stoller. Sourdough, are you as amazed as I am that they wrote qll of those great rock, R&B and Motown hits? Its so damn ironic. What we associate with the black sound and the R&B artists were written by 2 white guys. I mean its like finding out that "Mein Kampf" was written by Woodrow Wilson or something. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: DADGBE Date: 13 May 00 - 11:22 PM I wonder if there's any truth to the rumors about Lieber and Stoller which I've heard from a very reliable R&B source in private conversation. It's claimed that they had a genius for rushing songs to publication which they heard from black artists before the originals could lay claim to them. Maybe slander...maybe truth. I don't know |
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: Sourdough Date: 14 May 00 - 12:26 AM Yes, Catspaw, I am amazed. Didn't they also write the theme to Picnic? DADGBE: I am not all all surprised that there is a rumor that they stole their songs. There would be a predisposition for that kind of rumor since it fits into the feeling that so many African-American musicians have that they have been ripped off (considering the careers of Hank Williams, Elvis Presley and a whole bouquet of popular singers who reached "idol" status by turning "black" music styles into the mainstream - tehre is certainly some basis for thinking this.) Since no one could come up with music so steeped in someone else's trafdition without being familair with that tradition, there has to be some connection but where it is stealing and where it is transmutation, that 's always the hard part to tell. However, black artists took up their music and that must mean something. Sourdough |
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: GUEST,SINSULL Date: 14 May 00 - 12:38 AM Joan Morris did a wonderful collection of Lieber and Stoller songs including "Black Leather Jacket With The Eagle On The Back". Interesting pair rescued from the sinking Andrea Doria (?) and went right on to a meeting unfazed.Have to dig out my copy to see what else is on there. No "Hound Dog" I'm sure. Not Joan's style. |
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: Sourdough Date: 14 May 00 - 12:47 AM Black Leather Jacket! They wrote that too!!. A great period song. I always think of that when I pull out on Highway 101 on my bike. I have an eagle which I am having sewn to the back of my jacket before I leave Sonoma County (CA) for Wyoming (maybe Iowa) and Colorado on a motorcycle trip next week. My favorite recording of that song though is by Edith Piaf. It is called "Le Fou", "The fool was the terror of the country all around." Sourdough |
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: Barbara Date: 14 May 00 - 02:52 PM Well, Sourdough, Ray et al, if the song was covered by Big Mama Thornton three years before Stoller and Lieber copyrighted it, it seems very likely it was around in the black community before they took it over. Seems like her words are a little different too. I'll go give it a listen. Possibly it isn't as simple as "stealing" either. There were some very different attitudes toward song authorship in the 50's. People who discovered or collected the songs felt justified in putting their names on the sheet music. Witness the 3 people who "authored" Malvina's "Little Boxes" or "Turn Around". Perhaps L&S both wrote songs in the style of black singers, and collected songs from black singers, and put their imprimatur on both. Blessings, Barbara |
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: Gary T Date: 14 May 00 - 04:48 PM I understand that Lieber and Stoller more or less grew up with American Blacks, and had a genuine affinity for and familiarity with the Black community's music. In other words, they were writing music they really liked, and not simply trying to exploit the genre for a buck. Elvis' "Hound Dog" is noticeably different from Big Mama Thornton's, though similar enough to have had to have been derived from it. If I recall correctly, their "Kansas City" was likewise based on a song Big Joe Turner had been doing. It appears they modified and arranged the songs, and copyrighted their version. Probably legal and basically ethical, but certainly not as clean a process as writing a song from scratch. Still, I believe that the great majority of their songs (and there were probably hundreds) were essentially original. |
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 15 May 00 - 03:59 AM I prefer Mama Thornton's version and the lyrics make more sense than the Elvis version. I believe Mama felt L& S had stolen the song but hadn't the resources to fight them (legally that is, I'm sure they kept well away from her in the flesh, knowing her reputation as a brawler!). RtS |
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: TheOldMole Date: 15 May 00 - 10:21 PM Leiber and Stoller wrote Hound Dog for Big Mama Thornton; thet didn't appropriate her version of it. Joe Turner's "Piney Brown Blues" ("Well, I've been to Kansas City...everything was really all right") is similar to the song Leiber and Stoller wrote for Little Willie Littlefield, later covered by Wilbert Harrison, in that they both use the words "Kansas City." Outside of that, there is no resemblance in either words or tune. But why stop there? There have been lots of songs written about American cities, and certainly a lot about Kansas City. There's Joe Jackson's ("Walked up Tenth Street and I walked down Beale/Tryin' to find that gal that they call Lucille/She done moved to Kansas City...") There are lots of other songs about women named Lucille, too, but that doesn't mean they were all stolen from Joe Jackson. |
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: TheOldMole Date: 15 May 00 - 10:28 PM I'd have to double-check this, but I'm fairly certain Lieber and Stoller produced the Big Mama Thornton record, as well as writing the song. |
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: Brian Hoskin Date: 16 May 00 - 08:03 AM Yes, Leiber and Stoller definitely wrote Hound Dog, and Thorton's recording of this provided them with their first major hit, in 1952. I'm also pretty sure that they produced Thornton's recording. Brian |
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 16 May 00 - 08:08 AM Mama's resentment may have been at the greater publicity & marketing given to the white artist's version. A common complaint at the time when black artists were often relegated to small so-called "race" labels. I wouldn't have liked to cross her when she was in her prime! RtS |
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: Jon W. Date: 16 May 00 - 01:55 PM It seems I saw something about this on TV a couple of years ago. The gist was that Big Mama Thorton sang it with somewhat more vulgar lyrics, they had to clean it up to record it, and replaced the original words with "hound dog." No doubt it was cleaned up even more for Elvis. |
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: TheOldMole Date: 17 May 00 - 10:12 PM The lyrics on the Willie Mae Thornton version (as written by Lieber and Stoller) described a straying lover: You ain't nothin' but a hound dog Stop sniffin' round my door You ain't nothin' but a hound dog Stop sniffin' round my door You can wag your tail But I ain't gonna feed you no more Of course, black artists in the early 50s got ripped off...but there was something else happening here, as well -- the gradually growing awareness that there was a bigger market out there, and it would take smoother-edged songs to reach it. Champion Jack Dupree's "Junker's Blues" -- They call, they call me a junker 'Cause I'm loaded all the time was cleaned up by Fats Domino as They call, they call me the fat man, 'Cause I weigh 200 pounds All the women they love me 'Cause I know my way around A lot of songs of the blues and R&B era were reworkings of, or borrowings from, earlier songs, and it was not a dishonorable practice. However, Lieber and Stoller's work was original.
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: catspaw49 Date: 17 May 00 - 10:32 PM Jon W.------There WAS a TV thing on and I don't recall if it dealt with L&S only or them as part of a series. Could have been on the VH1 History of Rock, but I don't remember.In a way, I recall it as a stand alone show. It was really good with lots of great video clips too....about 2 hours too. I hate to say it, but VH1 has some excellent programming. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: TheOldMole Date: 18 May 00 - 02:11 PM Robert Palmer has a good book on L&S. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: HOUND DOG (from Big Mama Thornton) From: Jim Dixon Date: 22 Aug 04 - 12:03 AM Lyrics and notes copied from "Music 103-Listening CD2: United States" Henry Spiller, Kenyon College, Gambier, OH http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Music/SpillerCourses/ M103/PDFFiles/Listening.103CD2.US.pdf
As sung by Willie Mae ("Big Mama") Thornton You ain't nothing but a hound dog been snoopin' round my door (x2) You can wag your tail but I ain't gonna feed you no more You told me you was high class but I could see through that And daddy I know you ain't no real cool cat [Repeat verse 1] [Harmonica solo] You made me feel so blue you made me weep and moan I'm sorry to tell you baby, I'm gonna send you home [Repeat verse 1] This song fits somewhere between the genres of R&B and Urban Blues. This version features the quintessential blues instrument-harmonica-but also emphasizes the backbeat. The song form is basically a 12-bar blues. Though the song was written by the New York songwriting team of Lieber and Stoller (who also brought you hits like "Love Potion No. 9" and "Yakety Yak"), it is said that Big Mama changed a lot of the lyrics, making the song distinctly her own and bringing the sexual implications to the foreground. http://www.thewire.co.uk/archive/charts/100_records.html
The record came together more or less accidentally at a recording session in Los Angeles in August 1952. Precocious songwriter Jerry Leiber (20 years old) came up with a few phrases for Willie Mae to spit out with gleeful venom, The Johnny Otis Band hit a funky mambo groove, and Pete Lewis was goaded into playing one of the best guitar figures ever, especially in the solo where Willie Mae exhorts him to growl and moan like a dog without a bone. Three years later, Elvis truly did shake the world with his reworking of the song, and Leiber & Stoller had to take Johnny Otis to court to establish that, young as they were, they really had written the song without his help. Later, when everybody thought that the only credible performers were those who wrote their own material, Willie Mae said she wrote it. But I look into Jerry's eyes (one brown, one blue) and I believe he thought up those words - "You can wag your tail but I ain't gonna feed you no more". CG |
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Subject: Lyr Add: HOUND DOG (from Elvis Presley) From: Jim Dixon Date: 22 Aug 04 - 12:04 AM *** Lyrics and notes copied from "Music 103-Listening CD2: United States" Henry Spiller, Kenyon College, Gambier, OH http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Music/SpillerCourses/ M103/PDFFiles/Listening.103CD2.US.pdf HOUND DOG As sung by Elvis Presley You ain't nothin' but a hound dog cryin' all the time (x2) Well you ain't never caught a rabbit and you ain't no friend of mine Well they said you was high classed well that was just a lie (x2) Well you ain't never caught a rabbit and you ain't no friend of mine [Repeat verse 1] [Guitar solo - 1 time through the progression] [Repeat verse 2] [Guitar solo - 1 time through the progression] [Repeat verse 2] [Repeat verse 1] [Elvis's version is similar in several ways to that of Big Mama Thornton. The band consists of electric guitar, bass, and drums, and the backbeat is emphasized (although not as prominently as in Big Mama's version). The form is straight 12-bar blues with no variation. However, Elvis' version is much faster than Big Mama's, and it features the very smooth vocal support of the Jordanaires during the guitar solos. Elvis sings only two different verses in his version, both with the same last line. Big Mama sings three different verses, each with different lyrics. Her lyrics reflect a decidedly female perspective, while Elvis' lyrics, ostensibly sung from a male perspective, do not seem gender-specific.] |
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: GUEST,allan S. Date: 22 Aug 04 - 08:39 PM Wasn't there a song that went Hound dog bay at the moon Hang down your long [ears??] sing your sad tune Hound dog bay at the moon I remember that one back in the 1950's Any ideas |
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: Bobert Date: 22 Aug 04 - 08:53 PM Funny thing about blues music is that lots and lots of lyrics were passed around from musican to musican and Hound Dog ain't do different. Sure Mama Thornton recorded it first but whe she performed it live she'd mix and match lyrics, just as blues folks did back then and still do today. There was a period of time when everyone was singing "walkin' Blues" yet it somehow get accredited to Robert Johnson. Shoot, there's pieces of it in Son House's old stuff and pieces of Son House's in Charlie Patton's ol' stuff and pieces of Chalie Pattons in.... And the beat goes on... Blues is kinda hard to pin down when it come to authorship but we do know that Mama Thorton recorded Hound Dog before Elvism though Elvis being from a hotbed of blues players mighta been playin' it fir years... One has to know that he played a lot of blues before he became known.... Bobert |
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Subject: Lyr Add: HOUND DOG (James Smith & Katie Lee) From: BanjoRay Date: 23 Aug 04 - 08:16 AM The first record I ever bought as a teenager was 'Hound Dog' in the mid fifties. I took the 78 home and couldn't believe my ears - it wasn't Elvis but Vaughan Monroe singing the following ditty, from "The Toughest Man In Arizona" - 1952. Lesson - read the label proprly! Cheers Ray Hound Dog (James Smith & Katie Lee) chorus: Hound dog, bay at the moon. Lay back your long ears; sing a sad tune. Lift up your long head and bay at the moon. Hound dog, bay at the moon. My crops are all ruined and my taters have rot. No corn in the bin and no beans in the pot. Ain't no kind of trouble that I haven't got, Hound dog, bay at the moon. Got holes in my socks just as big as a barn Can't sew them up 'cause the dern things won't darn Can't sew them up 'cause the dern things won't darn Hound dog, bay at the moon. My hound dog is weary, his coat has turned gray. Now all he's good for is to scratch fleas and bay. Now all he's good for is to scratch fleas and bay. Hound dog, bay at the moon. Rotten potatoes and a dirty tow sack, Pain in my belly and a crick in my back Pain in my belly and a crick in my back, Hound dog, bay at the moon. That the Lord should forget me, it brings my heart pain I guess he's forgotten how to make it to rain, I guess he's forgotten how to make it to rain, Hound dog, bay at the moon. |
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: Cool Beans Date: 23 Aug 04 - 01:16 PM I have the 45 of Willie Mae Thornton's "Hound Dog," on the Peacock label. It credits Leiber & Stoller as writers. It also credits the musicians as "Kansas City Jack and His Orchestra." I've always wondered who they were. Thanks for revealing their true identity. And just to make things more interesting...Johnny Otis: white guy. Real name John Veliotes. His brother Nicholas was at one time American ambassador to Egypt. Famous story Leiber and Stoller told in interviews prior to Broadway opening of "Smokey Joe's Cafe," a revue of their songs: Stoller (not both) was on the Andrea Doria, survived the shipwreck, arrived in NYC on another ship. Leiber greets him at the dock, informs him they have a big hit on their hands with "Hound Dog." "Willie Mae Thornton?" Stoller asks. "No," says Leiber, "Some kid named Elvis Presley." |
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: GUEST Date: 05 Feb 05 - 10:32 PM How many beats is in the song |
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: GUEST,Sidewinder Date: 06 Feb 05 - 01:39 AM Whilst Elvis,Scotty,Bill and DJ were performing in Las Vegas in 1956 Elvis during his time off went to watch other performers at work. One such combo was Freddie Bell & The Bellboys who performed their frenetic version of "Hound Dog" which Elvis took a liking too and chose to perform on The Milton Berle Show some weeks later.The reaction was unbelievable and a studio date was arranged in New York to get the song recorded.Apparently,Elvis had to be convinced that he should record it as he saw it merely as a knockabout tune for fun rather than a song with serious hit potential.The rest,as they say is history, I would,however, add that; during his performance of the song on his legendary 1968 TV Special he did sing a more "Big Mama Thornton" influenced version adding the "creeping round my door" part for the first time. Regards. Sidewinder. |
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: Barry Finn Date: 06 Feb 05 - 07:44 PM I got the chance, back in the late 60's to hear Big Mama Thornton in concert at the Boston Tea Party. She gave a not so short intro before doing Hound Dog. She said her song was stolen & was pissed that she didn't get the credit due her. Her disliking of Elvis & his part of not giving her any credit was quite a source of anger that I believe that if Elvis were in the city as the same time as her he wouldn't have survived her wrath. If I remember correctly the way Big Mama sang Hound Dog there was no mistaking it for what Elvis sang. Nina Simone was another pisssed off singer who recieved no credit for one her songs that became a big hit for the Animals. There seemed to be a wide spread practice back then that if a singer wouldn't credit themselves for a song they would, at the same time, intentionaly not give credit to the author & lead the public, by an act of omission, to belive that the song was their's. The lesser of two wrongs? Barry |
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Subject: RE: Query: Hound Dog? From: Nerd Date: 06 Feb 05 - 11:39 PM Yeah, Johnny Otis is a Greek American. He is still kicking, doing a radio show, performing, and teaching a course on African-American music at Berkeley! How I'd love to sit in, but I live on the East Coast! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Hound Dog? From: Genie Date: 24 Aug 11 - 03:32 AM Interesting, Barry. Big Mama Thornton, while explicitly excoriating singer Elvis Presley for "stealing her song" was tacitly discrediting the two guys who had actually written the song FOR her (even though she may have improvised some lyric modifications). Not a good thing. [[Cross-referencing this thread with the Obit. thread for Jerry Lieber, who died yesterday at age 78.]] Genie |
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Subject: Hound Dog - Lieber & Stoller From: Genie Date: 24 Aug 11 - 07:31 PM Forgot the cross-reference link: Obit. Jerry Lieber, Aug. 2011 |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Hound Dog? From: GUEST Date: 11 Dec 12 - 12:52 PM David T Smith yep my Dad James William Smith MD PHD copywrited "Hound Dog Bay At The Moon" in 1943 it circulated through Hollywood and ended up in a movie Titled "Toughest Man in Arizon" I imagine the following song writers had heard it but do not know if they used it as inspiration to write "Their Version" Dads song was a VERY poor pitiful me type song I do have an Origional recording NOT with Katie Lee |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Hound Dog? From: GUEST Date: 11 Dec 12 - 12:57 PM actually this is a "Rewrite" version of my Dad's copywrited song "Hound Dog Bay At The Moon" very different from the one my father wrote i 1943 Rotten Potatoes and dirty tote sack Pain in my belly and crick in my back my cotten is weebly and my sogum gone bad kin folk have et up all that i had david t Smith burpenta@yahoo.com |
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Subject: Lyr Add: HOUN' DOG (from Homer & Jethro) From: Jim Dixon Date: 16 May 13 - 09:47 PM HOUN' DOG As sung by Homer & Jethro on "The Very Best of" (2010) You're a puny little hound dog; you ain't very stout. (2x) Well, you look like an Airedale with the air let out. Well, they said you was-a high class, that you had a pedigree. (2x) You ain't nothin' but a mongrel, and you got a million fleas. Well, they said you was a bird dog, but you look like a goat. (2x) But you couldn't be a bird dog; you ain't never sung a note. Now once I had a hound dog, and her name was Kim. (2x) She ain't never had a puppy so I got rid o' him. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Hound Dog? From: GUEST,Felecia Date: 10 May 14 - 11:57 AM I recorded that's alright mama by Arthur C. I need to release my album on distribution through iTunes and need permission... how do I go about that? Is it under public domain? anyinfowouldbeappreciated..links too |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Hound Dog? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 May 14 - 01:18 PM "That's All Right," written by Crudup, was released on Victor in 1946, hence is not public domain. Some of the lyrics were taken from Blind Lemon Jefferson, 1926, on a Victor label, also not in public domain. At BMI, the work is Crudup work no. 1479466 Unichappell and Crudup were the two publishers. You would have to get permission through BMI. |
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