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Most Difficult Song You've Tackled?
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: keltcgrasshoppper Date: 24 May 00 - 08:17 PM The Name Escapes Me Reel by Kenny Chaisson..and The Mathmatician as played by J.P. Cormier..KGH |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Vixen Date: 24 May 00 - 03:27 PM Rick-- Row, Row, Row is a different thread... But I must say I'm proud to be in such original company! V |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: catspaw49 Date: 24 May 00 - 12:11 PM John "Big Tree" Song...Running back on Whitehall's High School football team, made first string all-state, 3 years in a row......Very tough to bring down. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Rick Fielding Date: 24 May 00 - 11:52 AM Hey there Vixen, you're welcome to climb into the boat with bert and I. We may drown, but we'll do it "Originally". Rick |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Whistle Stop Date: 24 May 00 - 10:51 AM The hardest I've ever tried to learn was one of my own -- a classical/flamenco guitar piece that I wrote when I was sixteen (some 26 years ago!) that had a couple of passages that still give me pause. What made it so hard, of course, is that it was my own, so I didn't feel I had the option of giving up on it in favor of something easier. And, prima donna that I am, once it was written I wasn't about to change it to make it easier. I also remember having a pretty hard time with "The Last Steam Engine Train" by John Fahey, learned off a Leo Kottke record. Probably there was an easier way to play it than what I was trying to do, but it was pretty tough to get all the right notes in the right places and still maintain that beautiful percussive train sound that Kottke did so well. |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Vixen Date: 23 May 00 - 01:55 PM I'm in the same boat as Rick and Bert. My most difficult piece (so far) is one of my own. It was the first melody I wrote on the guitar (instead of with my voice or the recorder), and it took me nearly two years to learn to sing. When I took it to my vocal coach, he told me that it was a challenging melody, and singing it would be as much work as splitting wood. I had to go at it note by note, measure by measure, and then, once I could "just do it," I had to go back and find all the feeling I had for the words and the melody way back when I wrote it. What made it so challenging? The intervals. The breath control. The range. The confidence. It takes all my concentration. I can't perform it even now without a careful and extended warm-up. There is no way I could play my guitar while I'm singing it. I am now thoroughly sick of it, but I still love it and can't stop myself from singing it in places like the shower and the car! V |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Jim Krause Date: 23 May 00 - 01:10 PM Without doubt, St. Louis Tickle. I still haven't mastered it after near twenty years or more. Another close second, although considerably more simple in its chord formations is Blind Blake's West Coast Blues. Been working on that one since 1974. I play it, but not note for note the way Blind Blake did. |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Mbo Date: 22 May 00 - 07:05 PM Yes! Prelude is C Sharp Minor!!! BUM BUM BUM! BUM BUM BUM!! --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: lamarca Date: 22 May 00 - 05:36 PM I fell off the ladder operators, Peter - I just couldn't think in or outside the box... Seriously, the most difficult thing about learning any song or tune is making it sound like music, rather than a laboriously learnt series of notes and words. Once you've got the words and tune down, you're not done! You need to practise, to live inside the song (or tune) so it feels like a part of you, so the phrasing and rhythm and ornaments and words all join to make real music. Otherwise, it's just a sterile exercise and a way of showing off technique devoid of feeling. (And I've been guilty of doing that more than once!) |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: MK Date: 22 May 00 - 05:20 PM Piano wise: Rachmaninov's (sp?) "Prelude In C# Minor". The hand positions are unbelievable! (Learned it back when I was around 15 and fearless.) |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Peter T. Date: 22 May 00 - 05:19 PM How could you ever be certain you flunked Quantum mechanics? yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: lamarca Date: 22 May 00 - 05:09 PM Being a person of many, many words, I am drawn to equally verbose songs, because I like the challenge. Learning an umpty verse ballad to a beautiful tune and trying to make it expressive, understandable and interesting for the whole length is a real challenge. I think the hardest song I ever learned was Tom Lehrer's "The Elements". Gilbert and Sullivan patter songs are hard enough to sing; you have to stay on pitch, go fast AND enunciate, but at least they have sort of a story line to help you keep your place. "The Elements" are sung to "Modern Major General", but in no particular elemental order (the periodic table doesn't make a very good crib sheet), so you have to learn it by rote memorization of the rhyme scheme and rhythm pattern. It helps that I was a chemistry major until I flunked Quantum Mechanics... |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Bert Date: 22 May 00 - 04:09 PM Altogether now |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Peg Date: 22 May 00 - 02:37 PM hot pazooza??? indeed, Peter T!!! I like to whip this one out, so to speak, when the moment is playful and the acoustics are good...having sung it so many times all those years ago I can go back to it any old time and hit the notes pretty cleanly...and it is such a melodramatic song the difficulties are somehow smoothed out by the very outrageousness of singing it out of a classical or commercial context...did a snippet of it at the singers' club at Paddy Burke's one night and there was much admiring mayhem... peg
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Peter T. Date: 22 May 00 - 02:25 PM I agree with it all Peg except for the octaves part -- the hardest ones to me are 6ths and 9ths. You have nothing to work with. At least with an octave you know when you have gone wrong, with the rest you have to wait and see what happens next before you realize that you have gone seriously wrong. But you are right about the simplest being the hardest -- or at least being so out there -- I read Gerald Moore's book about accompanying singers on the piano, and he more or less said that it was the hardest because it was so soft and understated -- there were these tiny little changes that made or broke the song. On the other hand, if you can even make a stab at "O mio babbino caro", that is pretty hot pazoozas as my grandmother used to say. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Peg Date: 22 May 00 - 02:15 PM I think the songs that seem most simple can be most difficult to master. I wonder if this is as true for instrumentalists as it is for singers??? I am primarily a singer and even in my classical, art song days the simplest-spunding ones were the toughest to make sound effortless...like "O mio babbino caro" that aria that is on all the commericals these days...that octave jump is rough! as is the jump in "Danny Boy" that bane of all Celtic singers...this is sung so badly so often that to do it well takes extraordinary effort so your performance can wipe away everyone's bad experience of it...I find octave (or greater) jumps difficult because of the confidence factor; this is a different issue for women someimtes since it can involve a shift from chest to head voice and my own way of keeping pitch and tone level in those two ranges is fairly different (since one resonates more in the head and the other in the throat, to some degree)...and no, I am not one of those people who think the head voice/chest voice thing is hogwash! I have long and intimate experience of it...and poor understanding of it leads to vocal chord abuse and, in women, can lead to vocal nodes...this is also one of the reasons women's voices tire and "blow out" more easily than men's, also that people enjoy hearing men sing in a high range )tenor) and enjoy women's voices in the lower registers (alto) and this is where that head/chest split can cause problems... Songs which have a lot of movement in that area (near the split)are hard for me to master vocally, too, because of working with the best way to "place" the song: keep it all in head voice to avoid any awkward shift? (the smooth transition within a phrase takes lots of practice and I will usually try to sing a song twenty or more times before performing it in public) Finding the proper key for one's voice can be crucial to get the best sound...but at the same time I am not one to move a classic like "Lakes of Pontchartrain" to anything weirder than C or D... that said, one of the most difficult traditional songs I have ever worked on is "Turlagh og O'Boyle" because of its vast range, tempo and density of lyrics. It is exhausting...but worth the work. I have a demo recoridng of it i did and wish the vocal exhaustion by song's end were not so apparent (of course no one but me notices it but!) and that i could find a way to get through it with breath left over...is that a sign of a good performance? I guess it means you give your all...and why some songs are left specially for the end of the set! Peg |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Kim C Date: 22 May 00 - 01:52 PM Well, back when I was a classically chained musician, I learned Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata in its entirety. I haven't played anything like that in many years, and the other day I heard it on the radio. I thought, I played THAT??!!?! Dang! Lately I am working on Billy in the Lowground and I know millions of people play this with little effort but I don't generally like the key of C on the fiddle so it's giving me a few fits. But I am bigger than it so I must endeavor to persevere. |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Rick Fielding Date: 22 May 00 - 01:41 PM Soph, we ALL deserve better guitars! Rick |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: sophocleese Date: 22 May 00 - 09:53 AM The hardest thing I find is to unlearn mistakes made when I first learned a song. That takes hours of patiently going over and over the passage or interval that I didn't learn properly. Its better to slow down the first time I'm learning something and get it right. With my guitar I'm getting to the point of really needing a teacher. I'm a singer first and can play simple basic chords, all self taught, but I want to do more so that I can help the songs along that I'm singing, but I don't know enough about guitar to know what I should focus on. I'm investigating one local teacher right now and hope to start lessons in about a month and then maybe take off. I had a wonderful comment yesterday when somebody who hadn't heard me in a while said that I had outgrown my guitar. When I win the lottery I'll get something better, but its nice to know that somebody thinks I deserve a better guitar. |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: GUEST,Bert - at home. Date: 22 May 00 - 12:45 AM Well at least -I'VE- got the sense to NEVER tackle anything that could be remotely considered difficult. Which is why you'll never hear me singing anything modal or even in a minor key. But like Rick I have one of my own songs which I screw up every single bloody time. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Rick Fielding Date: 21 May 00 - 11:26 PM Tab is like regular music notation, except the 6 strings of the guitar are represented by six lines. Numbers represent which fret the fingers go on. It's been around for almost a thousand years. Lotsa lute pieces are written in tab. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: bbelle Date: 21 May 00 - 10:43 PM I've never used tablature and am not even really sure what it is. My cousin, the flatpicker, says he can teach me in 15 minutes to read it. I read music and I play by ear ... is this not a good way to do it anymore? Why is tablature used now? What is it? Damn ... if you "experts" ("expert" being my word for anyone who plays a whole lot better than I) keep on making threads like this, I may turn out to be a real geetar player one of these days! I'm going to have to make a binder just to hold all this guitar information ... Jenny |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Rick Fielding Date: 21 May 00 - 10:31 PM Going back to pre-history (mine) I remember the song "Don't Think Twice, It's All Right" as being devilishly hard to learn (correctly) It was my first attempt at syncopated thumb and two finger picking, where you had to keep the "bum,bum,budda,budda" rhythm going with your right hand while playing bass, chords and lead with your left. Took me about 6 months to learn. The good thing was, that by learning the song by ear, I was able to use that style with hundreds of other songs almost instantly. The learning process from then on was exactly as long as it took to memorize the words. One of the reasons that I'm "iffy" about tablature (except for the odd really difficult chord structure) Rick |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: GutBucketeer Date: 21 May 00 - 04:58 PM One of the things I love about music is that I don't believe I have ever finished learning a song, or instrumental piece of music. Starting from being completely musically challenged (about 5 years ago) to today where I think I'm almost at the point of getting it, learning music has been a continuous spiral upward. New vistas continue to open up for me as I learn more, and I continue to re-learn songs in more challenging ways. Richard Hefner has a neat banjo page "EZbanjo" that has tabs for each song in 4 levels: basic melody, basic frailing, hammer-ons and pull-offs, and double thumbing. Each successive version adds a little more complications with the new technique. Each new level that I tackle has been the hardest I've tried. I learned a simple song like Little Liza Jane years ago, and I'm still learning it. The hardest time I have had with music (not a specific song) is learning to go from background playing to melody playing smoothly when singing. I still mess it up about 50% of the time. Maybe a teacher would help. JAB |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: MK Date: 21 May 00 - 04:50 PM There is no "ire" to raise. (IMHO)You are both valued and respected members here, and your intentions are always honorable. |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Little Neophyte Date: 21 May 00 - 04:21 PM Okay Jenny, you are absolutely right. Even though I was having a whole bunch of fun mucking up Michael's thread. I bet Michael will even be kind of sad when this conversation packs up and moves elsewhere, won't you Michael? Little Neo |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: bbelle Date: 21 May 00 - 04:11 PM Bonnie ... if you don't mind ... let's take this to another thread I will start ... "Being True to Oneself." Since this was begun as basically a instrumentalist thread, I don't want to further encroach on it. Nor do I want to raise Michael's ire. Jenny |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: MK Date: 21 May 00 - 03:59 PM ...but they'll love you even more if you can play "Foggy Mountain Breakdown"...*BG* (just kidding.) |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Little Neophyte Date: 21 May 00 - 03:55 PM For me it has just always been dealing with my personal hidden agenda. I use to think that if I accomplished something grand whether it was local accomplishments or dreaming of global big stuff, I was doing it for the wrong reasons. I was doing it to establish some value or prove to others I had some worth. As I realize I need do nothing more than just be myself, it doesn't take away my drive to excel in things, but rather my striving comes from a healthier place. What I am saying is, I would like to become a good banjo player, but if I did not, people would still love me the same. Little Neo |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: bbelle Date: 21 May 00 - 03:39 PM The need to be global has always intrigued me. Never did like big crowds of people. It takes a person with titanium perspectives to go global and keep their wits intune. As long as I'm working on new music and keep my interest up, local is fine. Anyone who would chose to live in Fairbanks, AK or Tallahassee, FL, must like "local." There's also a comfort zone involved ... Jenny |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: MK Date: 21 May 00 - 02:58 PM I agree Peter. I'll stick with local. No need for me to make the treck to Winfield, Kansas. *G* |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Peter T. Date: 21 May 00 - 02:54 PM I think it is important to make a distinction between what we could call "local perfectionism" and "global perfectionism". Unless it turns completely wierd, local perfectionism seems to me to be necessary for all crafts, to do Michael's tough passages, etc., practicing, whatever. When it comes to global perfectionism -- to be the best X in the world -- it works for some people -- gives them a good self image, a goal to strive for, whatever. But it wrecks other people, partly because it is often way too grandiose, and also not specific enough so you can tell whether you are making any progress towards it, nor can any counter-evidence of fact make any dent in it. It is just a vague obstacle or burden, and not empowering at all. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: bbelle Date: 21 May 00 - 02:21 PM The strive for perfectionism in music is, fortunately or unfortunately, the nature of the beast. But it shouldn't be the "be-all, end-all" to the enjoyment. Again ... sorry for the threadcreep. I want to hear more about how y'll have mastered or are mastering the "difficult." Jenny |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: MK Date: 21 May 00 - 02:20 PM I agree with you Neo, and your rationale. I honestly started this thread because I was curious if others had the staying power (or mildly obsessive-compulsive traits I have) in working through a song, to the bitter end, regardless of how much time it takes to nail it down, once you've made the mental committment to learn it.
My process if I find something that piques my interest is in listening to the original artist perform it (and of course I have to like the song/arrangement), and say to my self "How difficult can it be?" Things always appear more complex when you don't understand them. Once you understand them the aura of mystique is removed. |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Peter T. Date: 21 May 00 - 02:12 PM Right with you on this one, Bonnie. I have one advantage over you: I have no grandiosity when it comes to music -- but it is an endless trap for me in writing or scholarship. The reason it never arises in music is I have never had any image of myself as a great musician, and have no expectations at all of any kind. So I find it very relaxing, if frustrating. But get me onto a zillion other things, and the demons arise, howling. My only solution in these other areas -- because perfectionism is so sneaky -- is to plunge into the very detailed hands-on work, and forget about outcomes. I have to police myself very carefully to stop thinking about goals and glory, and just enjoy the little bits as they come. Pure in the moment stuff. As soon as I head for the big picture: boom -- the larger than the average bear stuff growls!! It is not much of a solution maybe -- but it is better than the crap. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Peter T. Date: 21 May 00 - 02:00 PM Interesting Jenny -- and you are right about the beginning being the big problem. I have been learning an Irish song (The Cuilinn) for the last two weeks, and the opening intervals are murder. After you are in, of course, things get easier. But the first 3 notes! I have another one I am starting, and it is equally a mess (Bantry Bay). I find that thinking of the notes of the chord that the opening notes usually are trying to set out works a bit, but it is still hell. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Little Neophyte Date: 21 May 00 - 01:56 PM That was very funny Peter And another thing........ Learning to play an instrument when I feel like I have no clue of what I am doing has been one of the most humbling things I have ever done. It is not just the perfectionist in me that is being threatened but the part of me that feels I need to do grand things, accomplishing more than the average bear. I have had to let go of all that crap because it is a ridiculous demand on myself when it comes to becoming a musician. And who really care? I am so tired of doing things to feel of value to the point I am boring myself with my own crap. I really do not consider this as thread creep because when I look at the thread title 'Most Difficult Song You've Tackled?', it is what it makes me think of. Michael I am quite sure this is not what you were thinking of when you created this thread, but for me it has hit a personal core issue I have been trying to address for sometime now. Little Neo |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: bbelle Date: 21 May 00 - 01:52 PM Me, too, Peter! Who care ? A lot of singers do that ... the problem is that if you don't sing it right out, you cannot hear the counterpoint between the correct interval and the incorrect interval. After a while of doing this, you will be able to sing the interval correctly. If you read music, visualize in your mind the scoresheet and the notes at every step of the interval. You may find yourself using your eyebrows to "punch" (for lack of a better word right now) the notes. This may help. I don't know if visualization came naturally, or if I learned it along the way, but that's how I do it and it works. And, Peter, Rick's right ... "nail the sucker." Jenny |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Peter T. Date: 21 May 00 - 01:44 PM It was a joke, Jenny! Who care ? My problem with intervals in singing is that I try and avoid the mistakes by quieting my voice, which gives me no strength to "nail the sucker" as Rick Fielding would demurely put it. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: bbelle Date: 21 May 00 - 01:36 PM Peter ... I'm a lover of the written word and a hardshell grammartist AND a "prisoner of perfection." If Bonnie has mastered the art of being able to do it wrong until right, "who cares" if her punctuation is amiss. I'm trying to escape, as well. Apologies for the threadcreep. Since I play guitar, but am not even remotely close to the league which encompasses the likes of Michael, or Rick, or a few others, I wouldn't call myself an instrumentalist, in that sense. But I am an accomplished singer/vocalist and I do consider that my major instrument, so ... Notes, phasing are rarely difficult for me, however, intervals can be a real bear ... and it took me longer to learn and be comfortable with the song "Cry Me A River" than with any other song I've ever sung. It's the intervals! When I sing "Cry Me A River," I still have to visualize the opening interval. If I don't, I fall "under," and it makes me crazy. If there are musical passages, that I find slightly difficult, I concentrate on those and add the rest around them. Sometimes, I will work on a song for months before I debut it. That's my "perfection prison." Jenny |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: mactheturk Date: 21 May 00 - 01:27 PM I have a friend that does "Flight of The Bumbble Bee" on his Tuba, unbelievable, you have to see this guy...!
just kidding,(of course)
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Peter T. Date: 21 May 00 - 01:11 PM "cares", Bonnie, "cares": the phrase is "who cares". Plus punctuation at the end, probably inside the quotation marks, but outside is acceptable too. (joke, joke, joke!!!!!!!!!) yours, PeterT. |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Little Neophyte Date: 21 May 00 - 12:43 PM Rick's suggestion of just play it wrong 25 times and then the 26th or 126th starts sounding right, has been a very good approach for me. Coming from a place where I have always felt I had to excel in everything I did, it has been cathartic to say the least. To be wrong so many times and get to the point where I'd say, "ah what the hell, who care" This is freeing me from the perfectionist prison I had created. Bonnie |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: kendall Date: 21 May 00 - 12:17 PM songs that dont follow a logical sequence give me the bends..Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald, for one. |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: gillymor Date: 21 May 00 - 11:08 AM Probably my version of Blind Blakes' version of West Coast Blues. The left hand is pretty simple but getting the bass to sound right is another story. I've been playing it for a couple of decades or more and some days I can get the bounce and some days not. I think Michael K's thoughts on not letting your reach exceed your grasp are dead on, especially for those starting out. When learning difficult pieces I concentrate on playing the hard parts, usually just two or three bars worth, over and over and at increasingly faster speeds (never faster than I can play it properly, though) until I become brain dead and nauseous from the sound of them and then I leave it alone 'til I can bear to hear myself play it again (usually a week or two). Every time I come back to those passages after going through this routine they become progressively easier. Frankie |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Susan A-R Date: 21 May 00 - 10:42 AM For some reason I have a lot of trouble bringing Blackberry Blossom up to the speed I'd like to have on the fiddle. As for songs, (I guess you could call it a song) Spike Jones The Man on the Flying Trapeese. I DID IT though. |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: RichM Date: 21 May 00 - 09:05 AM :The Auctioneer. Finally learned the auctioneer's patter on a trip from Ottawa to Toronto- four-and-a-half of listening to a tape loop of just that part, from Lightfoot's version. Do ANYTHING for 4+ hours and you never forget it.... |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: GUEST,Rosebrook Date: 21 May 00 - 01:41 AM I've been playing the hammered dulcimer for the past 5 months now. The most challenging tune for me to learn has been Liberty. Regarding strategy, I start really slow and find the notes. Then I determine which hand to use for smoother play. Then I practice over and over. Then hopefully I can get faster and faster until it is up to speed. Rose |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Lady McMoo Date: 20 May 00 - 07:17 PM For me the hardest song always seems to be the one I'm working on at the time...to try and bring something new or personal to it. Not a very informative answer I know but I feel it's the tru answer for me. Peace mcmoo |
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult Song You've Tackled? From: Jon Freeman Date: 20 May 00 - 07:10 PM Out of Court and a tune that I think was called "The Eclispe" both from a Chris Newman/ Maire Ni Catheseigh album called Out of Court. I tried to learn them because I liked them and they sounded challenging. I managed to get as far as being able to play the Eclipse in time with the cassette on my tenor banjo but never got as far as managing to do the same (trying to follow some of the guitar work on banjo) with Out of Court. At that time, I used to practice a lot but I haven't done any real practice for several years and it shows in my playing. In fact I have hardly played at all this year but I keep telling myself that music will come back to me when it is ready... I don't know when this will be but I feel sure it will hapen sometime and I don't know how to force it. One thing is for sure though, I will have to work over a lot of easier tunes before I can get back to being able to consider trying these tunes again. Jon |
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