I'm not worthy...or Am I?

Subject: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: MMario
Date: 23 May 00 - 12:37 PM

A comment out at the MudCat Auction made me stop and think. Frequently you will hear people put down their own efforts, whether this is a song, a tune, a poem, or a piece of handcraft, whatever. It seems to be a natural inclination to feel that one's own efforts are "not worthy". I know from personal experience that where I see glaring errors, others will not see faults. (Of course the reverse is also true...to my great chagrin.) What are other people's experiences, feelings, comments?

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: Mbo
Date: 23 May 00 - 12:42 PM

"I am not one of those people who count modesty as one of the virtues." --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

--Mbo

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: MMario
Date: 23 May 00 - 12:48 PM

but Mbo - your actions have (at times) shown that you don't always follow that philosophy. *grin* In fact, you sometimes exhibit the strangest combination of reticent shyness and outgoing conviviality I have experienced.

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 May 00 - 12:58 PM

MMario, ain't it the truth.

After 32 years of playing for my dough, I've never done a concert where I didn't ask someone (Heather for the last 12) "How was it?"

I still worry whether:

My pitch was spot on

My tempos seemed right

Did I talk too much?

Did I enunciate properly?

Was the set paced properly?

Did folks "hear" my mistakes?

Overall, I've got a lot of confidence in the music I sing and play publicly, but that insecurity never REALLY goes away. I'm well aware that most of your friends and family will always say "ooooh that was wonderful..." but I constantly learn from objective criticism...and I KNOW that it improves your performance next time. Keeps you from getting lazy as well. Some folks just radiate "self-confidence" (whether they believe it or not) but most of the worthwhile artists I've met sure don't.

Rick

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 May 00 - 01:06 PM

Most of us grew up being taught that bragging is a no-no. Even when we knew we had done well, it was taboo to even acknowledge a compliment with a simple thank you unless "qualifiers" were attached.

"Pat, that was a tremendous meal, just excellent."
"Well thanks but it really wasn't much. And I think the sauteed veggies were a little overdone."

Sound familiar? Its because that out of all the "self" things that are worth relearning....self-esteem, etc.....what most of us have a difficult time achieving is a "feeling of deservedness." If its negative, we feel we got what was "coming to us." But because we're taught NOT to call undue attention to ourselves or brag, then the positives get treated like my example above. So consider this scenario: You have worked hard and prepared that meal and you KNOW its great, but the above interchange takes place BUT THEN CONTINUES-------

"Ya know Pat, you're right, they were overdone. And I think you may have used a bit too much wine in them too."

Now you're pissed aren't you? We work hard and do our best...we deserve the praise. We don't do our best, we don't. And one more thing.............Sometimes we get something out of the blue and say we're lucky and don't deserve it. Well, think of all the times you worked hard and didn't get what you should have gotten for your efforts. Consider those gifts out of the blue as life's payback for the many times you've been screwed.

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: MMario
Date: 23 May 00 - 01:06 PM

Rick, I'm not sure it that reassures me or frightens the heck out of me!

Objective critiscism is fantastic. But finding someone to give it can sometimes be hard! I think most people tend to go one way or the other, be too critical or too lenient with critiscism.

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 00 - 01:06 PM

When you are a guest, make your way to the lowest place and sit there, so that, when your host comes, he may say "My friend, move up higher". In that way everyone with you at the table will see you honoured. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the man whio humbles hmself will be exalted.(St Luke xiii)

Mind, it doesn't always work out like that. But it's a pretty good rule of thumb.

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 May 00 - 01:09 PM

McGrath that's exactly the problem!!! Nothing like the good old puritanical Christian ethic. Its OK...but don't let it stop the feeling of deservedness.

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: Peter T.
Date: 23 May 00 - 01:23 PM

I find that criticism (including self-criticism) is far more helpful to me than compliments, since you can do something with criticism to improve yourself. The problem with it is that you have to be able to do this from a strong base of original self-confidence. Otherwise it is likely some form of self-abasement, reproducing bad parental criticism, not getting too far ahead of other people, fake humility, etc. -- all basically crippling responses. And it is very important to recognise that other people respond completely differently to criticism than you do -- they have their own demons to fight. Some people thrive on it; some people die under it. You can't tell unless you test it out gingerly. I have a very few students who come up and tell me that I am the first person to take them seriously in their whole lives, because I take what they say seriously enough to criticise it as hard as I can -- but 90% of my students would wither under that kind of criticism because they need lots of positives before you can venture a negative. I used to be judgemental about this -- the old boot camp, Marine corps method I personally learned under -- boy, shape up or ship out -- but I gave it up as stupid, thank goodness, a long time ago -- we are all wired differently.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: kendall
Date: 23 May 00 - 01:31 PM

It's been 50 years of performing in public, and, I still get so nervous sometimes that my shoes wont stay tied. Rick, I just played one of your tapes on the stereo of my new car, a Lincoln with a great sound system, and you sound great!!

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: Homeless
Date: 23 May 00 - 01:38 PM

Spaw - going back to your first post, I agree with what you said, but I'm not sure that it is that same as what MMario was asking. Correct me if I'm in err here, but you mean that you think you actually did the best you could, but verbally will depreciate the actions/outcome to others due to our society's norms? I believe what MMario is asking is when you do your best, do you still see the errors that others miss or neglect to mention.

MMario - yes, I know for myself what you say is true. On anything that I create, no matter how blueprint perfect, I always see places where I could have done it differently/made it better. And somehow those things seem to become the focal points for me. Other people look at it and see the beautiful finished (dulcimer, jewelry box, computer program, song, whatever).
Over the years I've come to adopt what is probably an unhealthy attitude toward audience/criticisers. And that is that I discount or ignore any comments on something unless that person is an expert in that field. I've built a couple lap dulcimers that I've had plenty of people ooh and ahh over, to which my reaction was always, "Yeah, right. Thanx." Until a luthier looked it over and gave me his opinions on it. Those opinions I valued.

I don't mean to come off sounding like the general populace's opinions don't matter - they do, for each person. And if your audience is happy with your performance then you should be happy with it too. But for (constructive) criticism I usually value only an expert's opinion, because mine is usually too harsh.

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 May 00 - 01:43 PM

Dunno' Homeless........I went back and read Mario's post and I see it as both in a way. I picked up more on the "not worthy" angle, although the other is there too.

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: MMario
Date: 23 May 00 - 01:48 PM

Homeless - I think I don't know WHERE I was headed with this. But BOTH are topics worthy of discussion in my opinion.

I have been being told for waytoomany years that I am part of the "me" generation - so how does this fit in with either being supercritical of my own work OR "socialy humble"?

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: Homeless
Date: 23 May 00 - 02:07 PM

OK, I concede it can be read both ways. I was looking at "feel their efforts" as opposed to "represent their efforts."
When was the "me" generation? Maybe I'm too young (34) to have been in the midst of that. Tho I've never had much use for society or their norms. If I feel that I've done a good job on something, I have no problem with saying so. But I am very much the sufferer of seeing flaws in my own work where others don't.

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: GUEST,SINSULL
Date: 23 May 00 - 02:47 PM

MM.
I think you are talking about my comment regarding my newly acquired skills in lampworking. I'll explain. While the rest of the class dutifully turned their mandrels round and round and came up with in some cases wonderful, simple beads, I jumped in with both feet and announced that my first project would be a Corinthian Head Bead. I brought photos of ancient samples. If you haven'seen these - they are a man's head with huge round eyes, heavy brows,broad nose and lips and a head and beardful of ringlets. Now picture trying to get the nose not to melt off while applying ringlets of molten glass. My finished bead was astonishing to my teacher and class as well as myself. However, being a novice, I did not have the control over the temperature of the various parts and colors to assure a stable piece. Glass wants to shatter. And my cracked pieces, though quite beautiful, are not saleable. I designate them "Girl Scout projects gone bad." But I am very proud of the work I did and the envious glances from the round bead makers who unkindly rolled their eyes originally at my ancient pictures. In a year I will be happy to offer one of my treasures for auction here. It was not false modesty but an honest appraisal.

"Moon" on the other hand has perfected her craft and has generously offered her figures for sale. She is very sure of their value and her talent.

MMario, I have worked in sales my whole life and will match my organizational, teaching, and selling skills against anyone in any product line. I can handle a room full of executives in corporate presentations or get any information I need from a prospect or a competitor without them even guessing at what their telling me. I am honest, up front, never cheat, never lie. And my customers appreciate and respect me. I am very good at what I do. When I am not good at something, I accept it and work to improve or move on. I will never sing professionally but I will sing. I will never play professionally but I will play for you on Hearme. Modest offerings. Not a particularly modest person. If I don't appreciate me, why should anyone else?

This is very different from "stagefright". Recently, I was asked to read some scripture at a wedding ceremony. My throat went dry, my mind went blank, and barely waded through the passage. I had to remind people that I was a college graduate after the fiasco. I am much better with CEOs than priests.

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 May 00 - 03:30 PM

I have reset my cookie. Chocolate chip, not humble pie.

Re: the overdone veggies. There is a wonderful scene in one of Amy Tan's books in which a second generation Chinese woman is introducing her American boyfriend to the family. As is tradition, the mother modestly places the various dishes on the table and points out the faults of each. When she finally puts out her SPECIALTY, she states "I think it may need a little salt. It's too bland." The American answers "Don't worry about it" and generously spices the dish with soy sauce to the horror of everyone at the table.

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: MMario
Date: 23 May 00 - 03:34 PM

Sinsull - I did take off from having read your comment; but did not have you particularly in mind when I started the thread. I didn't mean to make you an example especially as I hadn't seen your work nor am I qualified to judge it. Please forgive me if it seems so. Nor did I have any intention of denigrating your character, accomplishments etc. (That's just for the record - in case someone is reading this "wrong")

However I HAVE seen work, better in many instances and certainly no worse then items commercially available whose makers, apparently sincerely, come up with lines like "Oh that's not saleable", "Nobody would pay for that" etc. These are people whom I sincerely believe are NOT being falsely modest (or at least consciously). The corellary is that it seems in some places ~ "Handmade" ~ means "cut-rate" or "cheap". Or people seem to expect it too.

One example...Christmas Greens. For years I made Christmas Wreaths and various decorations, along with various friends, as a fund-raiser. These were handmade on handwoven backings,of fresh evergreens, often five or six varieties of greens in a wreath, decorated and with a hand-tied bow. Equivilant wreaths at the florist were selling for $75 to $100 dollars.(In fact we did have florists purchase and resell several at a considerable markup.)Single green, machine made undecorated wreaths were going for about $15 in the same size. We had a VERY hard time getting $20 for our wreaths. The kicker was one of the florist's purchases, which sold the next day to the same woman who refused to pay $20 for it at the price of $75!!!!! I didn't know whether to gloat or scream with frustration!

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: Amos
Date: 23 May 00 - 03:40 PM

There are two different workings at work here. Wanting feedback on a technical skill set, even performing, is pretty normal, although the really free person might be able to reside comfortably in the certainty they did their best.....but technical skills grow on continuous feedback and review and creation don't happen simultanously. That's why it is called REview.

But the far deeper issue is the creation of the belief of inherent unworthiness ... the notion that "I" am not (good enough worthy, smart enough, acceptable, etc.)

To buy into this terrible habit, which many people do, you have to first set up a "self" object which you then look at (in order to criticize it). Or else, you have to set up a "critic" viewpoint to go and be while deprecating "yourself" -- a mental image of a critical parent or a generalized "what people think" machine to sit in and shoot at yourself from. However you implement it, the basic is departing from being yourself in order to set up a two-pole critic/victim of criticism relationship. Andit is always a waste of time, done this way. Unless Mom (or whoever gave you this lesson way back when) is right there in town with you, it isn't a real present event; it's a piece of luggage being used to beat yourself on the head with. The beater or the beatee or both are false identities.

And sometimes it helps to notice that all the power of the "critic" end, AND all the power of the "victim" end, is coming from the real you that never goes away, but can be disguised or screened off. Finding out who you are can do wonders for your self-esteem. It's the false identities that cause suffering.

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 May 00 - 04:02 PM

MM,

I wasn't offended at all. I may have been a little forceful in my response - sorry. Damn, there I go apologizing for myself again!

I sympathize with you over the wreath business. I do wonderful needle work and offered a shawl for auction to raise money for a local charity. A woman who didn't want to waste money on raffle tickets wanted to know the cheapest I would make one for. My answer was simple and honest. I only make them for people I like.

If you want one Mario, pick a color. Not sure how you'll be able to carry it off though. The fringe, you know.

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: MMario
Date: 23 May 00 - 04:18 PM

**chuckle** - I make shawls myself...filet crochet and my "list" grows longer faster then I can make them!

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: JulieF
Date: 23 May 00 - 04:35 PM

The problem I have is I can't separate my selfworth from my image of people who push themselves forward before everyone else. I accept I have a problem with extravagent praise - I like to think I can accept critisism. I think what I hate most is a fuss being made. I think I rather like - Well done , Thank you etc rather than anything more gushing. I constantly worry that I talk too much about my daughter to other people - worry that I boast. I hate to see it in other people as far too often I find that some people are totally self centred who's kids can do no wrong.

Julie

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: MMario
Date: 23 May 00 - 04:41 PM

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 May 00 - 04:51 PM

Hey Amos...Kinda' relates to your e-mail doesn't it?

And SINS.......that feeling of desevedness I mention applies extremely well to sales doesn't it? Some guy calls up and has decided ne has to have what you got and you never heard of him...ya' know? Sometimes those nicely coincided with well done presentations that had "gone south."

AND MARIO......Wow man....After rereading this whole thing and your original and subsequent postings, I have come realize that you really DO suck!!! Geeziz, I'm glad I'm not you.......

Spaw (:<))

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: poet
Date: 23 May 00 - 04:51 PM

I'm NEVER good enough for me. But most of the audience seem to think I am good enough for them is it that their expectations are too Low or mine are too high.
Oh well I enjoy what I do and get paid besides so maybe I shouldn't worry! But I still throw up 5 minutes before stage call.

Graham (Guernsey)

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: Peter T.
Date: 23 May 00 - 05:12 PM

the big advantage is that other people are really only giving you 1% of their attention at any one time, if that. If you are really terrific, or unspeakably awful, you may bump that up to 10%, but 90-99% of people's time is spent thinking -- how do I look? how am I doing? What do they think of me? ME,ME,ME. You have to be deeply hideous to get even noticed, to get over the constant buzz of self-regarding noise in the human brain.

Consoling, huh?

yours, Peter T. (Gosh, I wonder what they thought of that remark?)

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 May 00 - 05:21 PM

It stunk......Smelled up the whole joint......Completely without merit and lacking in even the tiniest speck of relevance...........

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 00 - 05:27 PM

When you get someone in a sibgaround or whatever who insists on saying how terrible they are - not in a jokey way, which is fine, but in a hyperapologetic way - and the going on to do something perfectly well, I admit to finding it annoying, even a bit insulting. What they are actually saying in a way is "if you think I sound ok, you are lacking in taste - and all these other people in the room who you think who sound no better than I do are rubbish too.

Being modest doesn't mean running yourself down, it means doing the best you can, and listening to any criticisms with respect and equanimity. (Ah, I wish I could always do that, especially when some ignorant bastard doesn't appreciate how brilliant I really am...)

As I said, I'm not talking about joking, like saying "Well, you've asked for it, on your ears be it..." or something like that, when you get invited to play or sing. It's a bit of a cliche, but it's better than coming on with an attitude "Now listen to this, this is how it really should be done" - even if you really are that good.

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: Peter T.
Date: 23 May 00 - 05:54 PM

You like me, you really like ME!!!!

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: Mbo
Date: 23 May 00 - 06:00 PM

Ah, but Spaw, you haven't heard Mario sit on a bridge and sing Don Meixner's beautiful song...he IS worthy!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 23 May 00 - 06:31 PM

Amos, how come I never got your email?
I guess I am not worthy of it.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: hrodelbert
Date: 23 May 00 - 08:44 PM

Remember if you set your standards too high you'll always be disapointed with your performance. On the otherhand set them too low and you'll still be disapointed. It follows that if at first you don't succeed you are running about average. In terms of worthiness - who isn't?

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: Caitrin
Date: 23 May 00 - 09:04 PM

I consistently have overly high expectations for myself, something of a tendency toward perfectionism. As a result, I often fall short of my own expectations and think I suck. This holds true for my singing, acting, schoolwork, personal life, everything. I don't know why...it's just what I do. I've been trying lately to be more realistic about myself lately, but it ain't easy.

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: Hardiman the Fiddler
Date: 23 May 00 - 09:15 PM

Mmario, I remember the day my dad insisted that we try to fix an old lawnmower, and I asked him, "Dad, what do we know about fixing anything with a gasoline engine."

His response, "Absolutely nothing son."

He continued, "We could pay to have it fixed, but I don't have the money; we could put it out in the alley, but then I'd have to buy an new one, or who knows, we could just get lucky..."

We took it apart, and put it back together again. There was one spring left over. Durn if it didn't run for five more seasons. It was better to have given it a "whack" than not to have tried at all. Ever since then, I've figured, even when it comes to music, it is better to give it a whack than to have never tried at all. I hear every wrong note, especially when I'm fiddling. But it is still better to have tried than to have left it in the case gathering dust.

Greg

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: JamesJim
Date: 23 May 00 - 09:18 PM

We all want people to like us. It would be wonderful if people would fall all over us after a performance, saying such things as, "marvellous, wonderful, fantastic, great show, what a great voice, you are a tremendous instrumentalist, etc." I think most of us already know how our performance went. We can tell from audience response during our performance. Are they truly listening? You can tell if you just watch and listen. And, you are not going to be mobbed after a good performance, but you'll know how you did when people approach you (or don't) afterward.

It's natural to ask someone who is close to us about our performance. They are not going to hurt us. They'll be gentle. But, it's probably not the best guage of how we did. More than anything, the love of performing will sustain a performer. There will be off nights, but that just makes us try harder.

Jim

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 23 May 00 - 09:25 PM

You know Caitrin, I am at the point that I am so sick and tired of talking about my personal issues of having overly high expectations for myself, that I am actually starting to bore myself with my own crap.
It is good to hear you are being kinder to yourself.
It seems to have taken me half my life to realize what you are realizing now.

Little Expectations

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: Amos
Date: 23 May 00 - 11:52 PM

Little Neo -- Catspaw needed it more than you did. But I'll send you a copy! I thought we already covered it is all. :>) Hey, all you goddamn INTROVERTS -- knock it off! Don't you know that kinda shit makes you go blind?!!??

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 24 May 00 - 12:01 AM

There are times when I sit at the bench and wonder if I am doing the work I am capable of. Is the solder just right? Did I work the silver correctly, and if correctly, is there art in what I've done? Sometimes I get it just right and sometimes nothing seems to work. But the best part of what I do is that I always get to try again and if there is an imperfect place in my work thats fine because there are other parts that are perfect. And sometomes I will go to the safe and pull out a piece that my Dad made and I will compare his work to mine and I know the work is worthy. Sometimes I can can hear him still, " Put it in stock Donnie, Its just fine the way it is."

I think over time I have learned that its not the outcome that makes you worthy, but the effort spent in getting there.

Don

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: JenEllen
Date: 24 May 00 - 12:04 AM

MMario; is your self-inflicted lack of worthiness stopping you from doing something you love, or just making you try harder? Big difference.

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 May 00 - 12:27 AM

Great point JenEllen.

Rick

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 May 00 - 01:02 AM

LilNeo, I thought I forwarded Amos' email on to you. And, Spaw, he DID say it better than the guy in the email, didn't he?

I feel pretty lucky...I was always asked to do my best and got praised for it. This gave me an abundance of confidence which also allows me to take a look and know when I've not done my best and start over. That was always the criteria and still is...some days my best is better than others.

In case anyone is wondering about Amos' email, here it is. Amos, I hope you don't mind my posting it here.:

Go Ahead, Be Bad, It's Good for You
>by Bill Harris
> >For some of you, this article is going to be a stretch. For others, it will be a gift of freedom. Those of you for whom it is a stretch probably need the gift of freedom the most. Life is ironic at times. > >I just met a very interesting man. His name is Dr. Al Seibert, and he >has spent his life researching the subject of resiliency. He often >talks about what he calls "the survivor personality." > >We had a very electric, idea-packed lunch a few weeks ago, because we >found we had been coming at the same topic from different directions >and had much insight to offer each other. > >As you may know, almost everything Centerpointe does is based on the >work of Ilya Prigogine regarding how complex systems (like human >beings) reorganize at higher levels of functioning. When this happens, >you indeed do become more resilient, more able to deal with whatever >comes up in your environment. Another way to put it is that you gain a >greater flexibility, where fewer things can throw you off-course, off >balance. You become a survivor, to use Dr. Seibert's phrase. > >Dr. Seibert has identified a very interesting aspect of this idea of >resiliency -- a group of people who have little flexibility, who have >trouble dealing with change, and who are often (quite frankly) a pain >in the ass to be around. > >Who are these people? You'll never guess. > >They are people who were brought up to be........good. > >Dr. Seibert calls it "the good child handicap." Most parents want their >children to grow up to be decent, well-liked, and responsible. They >don't want their children to turn out "bad." But efforts to create a >"good child" unfortunately (according to Dr. Seibert's lifetime of >research), often produce an adult who is not able to cope well with >life. Such a person is, in fact, very often an energy draining "pain" >for others to live and work with. > >Are YOU good? > >Most people who are survivors, who have this quality of resiliency, of >flexibility, have a paradoxical "two-sides-of-the-same coin" collection >of traits: selfish-unselfish, pessimist-optimist, sensitive-tough, >strong-gentle, distant-friendly, and so on. They have emotional >flexibility. In a given situation they have a much bigger repertoire of >possible coping skills. They can flow with what is happening much more >easily. They have fewer rules -- they make up their own rules as they >go along, to fit the situation. > >Part of the problem is that most "good child" messages come in the form >of prohibitions -- what the parents want the child to NOT become or NOT >do. They use "bad" people as anti-models of how to behave, and think >they must eliminate and prohibit all traces of bad ways of thinking, >feeling, and acting. > >A good child is one who is: > >* not negative * not angry * not selfish * not dishonest * not >self-centered or prideful * not rebellious > >What the child hears is: > >* Don't talk back * Be polite * Be good * Stop pouting * Hang up your >clothes * Don't whine * Don't hit * Don't fight * Share with others * >Tell the truth * Stop complaining * Smile * Don't cry * Stop asking >questions * Don't be stuck-up * Don't be angry * Don't be selfish * >Don't chew with your mouth open * Don't pick your nose > >And so on. > >Many are "don'ts," others are "shoulds." All are rules, and the message >is "live life by these rules." > >Unfortunately, being a good, rule-bound child prevents most people from >coping with rapid change, unexpected difficulties, and extreme crises. > >Here is part of a letter Dr. Seibert received from Bill Garleb, an >ex-prisoner-of-war, after Garleb had read his description of the >"good-child" pattern: > >"My need to comment is so strong I could not pass it up. When I went to >parochial school, as a child, if you changed your mind and could see >the other side of something, they accused you of being inconsistent, or >"thinking like a woman." In other words, they programmed you to be >polarized and one-sided, the opposite of what a survivor personality >needs to be to cope. I am overjoyed that I have learned that being >biphasic is good. I like myself better now. It is important to note >that, although I was trained and programmed as a child not to use >biphasic traits, when my survival was threatened, I relied on basic, >inborn traits and ignored conditioning." > >To survive as an adult, Garleb had to go against how he was raised. His >experience is not unusual among survivors. But many people spend their >entire life trying to behave like a good child. And just as Prohibition >created serious societal problems in the 1920s, children raised with >inner prohibitions cause many problems for others. > >Some typical actions of a "good" child trying to function in an adult >body are as follows. They: > >* Smile when upset * Rarely let you know they are angry at you * Seldom >make selfish requests * Point out your faults, saying "I'm only telling >you for your own good." * Give "should" instructions to others * Get >upset with you and then say "You really hurt me." * Smile and >compliment people to their faces but say critical things behind their >backs * Alert and warn others about "bad" people * Cannot accept >compliments easily or agree they are good at something * When >confronted about something hurtful they said, they emphasize their good >intentions by saying, "But I meant well." * Fear being regarded as >hurtful, tough, selfish, insensitive, or uncaring > >The irony is they were raised from childhood to be emotional liars. >They had to lie about their emotions -- it was what their parents >demanded of them. Rather than being emotionally honest, they had to >learn to present the "right" emotions and suppress the "wrong" ones. > >The result is they come across as two-faced. They smile and agree, then >criticize in private. When asked to express a contrary opinion, they >are unable to do so -- until they are in private. > >Instead of making open requests (which might be seen as being selfish), >they hint at what they want. Appeals to get them to ask for what they >want, or admit (normal) selfish desires, will have little effect. >Though they act in selfish ways, they cannot allow awareness of their >selfishness into their consciousness. > >They must make sure you do not have the wrong impression of them. To >admit normal selfish or angry feelings would be to act like their >anti-model: bad. > >Here is why these "good" people drain energy our of others and are such >a pain to live and work with: > >* They do not give you useful feedback. Even if they are obviously >upset or angry, they can't admit it and talk about it. If they do admit >it, they have a victim reaction (whiny or angry). They blame you. > >* They are deceptive. they can act in ways that are harmful to you but >convince themselves it is for your own good. > >* Their efforts to have others have only good feelings about them often >causes the opposite reaction to occur. If they get a negative reaction, >they work even harder to get the positive reaction they want -- by >doing more of what caused the negative reaction in the first place. >their efforts then cause even stronger negative reactions, which leads >them to try even harder -- and so on. They do not have the flexibility >to try something else, but instead persist with their initial behavior. > >* There is a hidden threat under their efforts to make you see them as >good. If you react negatively to their ways of trying to control what >others (or you) think and feel about them, they may decide you are a >bad person and punish you. > >* They avoid empathy. They become slippery when you try to discuss an >upsetting incident with them. They may send you reeling with a sudden >accusation. Later, they may say "I don't remember saying that," or give >themselves a quick excuse. > >* They have mastered the art of being emotionally fragile. No matter >how carefully you try to find a way to get them to listen, have >empathy, or observe themselves, they will find a way to become upset. >Then they try to make you feel guilty for upsetting them. > >* The "good" person cannot distinguish between constructive and >destructive criticism. they react to unpleasant feedback as though it >is destructive and has a harmful effect. They believe if you really >care for them you will not confront them about their upsetting actions. >(This is much different from the flexible, survivor personality who >believes that if you care for them you will confront them about their >upsetting action so they can learn from the experience.) This is why a >"good" person remains at the emotional level of a child throughout >life. > >* They feel unloved and unappreciated. Even though you give them lots >of love and attention, they experience very little. They can't take it >in. > >* They are self-made martyrs. They blame you for the suffering you have >caused them, then forgive you so they can feel emotionally superior to >you. > >* Confronting them makes things worse. They cannot handle a >confrontation about what they do because the victim style is the best >they can manage. They have almost no capacity for self-observation or >for conscious choices about thinking, feeling, or acting in different >ways. > >The challenge for someone raised to be "good" is to develop new, >additional ways of thinking, feeling and acting. This requires courage >because it requires stepping outside the artificial shell of "goodness" >into risky, even frightening territory. > >Anyone trying to act like a good child is vulnerable to being >overwhelmed when faced with challenges beyond the capacities of the >"act" they were trained to perform and the rules they were trained to >follow. This is why "good" middle class young people, when faced with >real world problems, are so vulnerable to cults. After years of being >praised for good conduct in school, it feels familiar to again sit >passively and listen to an authoritative person tell them how to think, >feel, and act in order to be a new kind of "good" person. > >Having a flexible, resilient personality, on the other hand, is not a >way of being that can be learned from someone else. It is not an act >designed to replace the old one. It is, rather, the emergence of innate >abilities made possible by learning from experience and flexibly >responding to whatever is happening. > >It would be a good exercise to consider to what degree you fit this >profile. How rule-bound are you? > >I will be sharing more about this topic in the future, as I learn more. >For now, though, it's good to know that to whatever degree you were >trained to be "good" and to follow the rules, there is hope! > >Bill Harris > >http://www.centerpointe.com

--

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: Amos
Date: 24 May 00 - 01:28 AM

Good point. It isn't just "goodness" that forms the enforced reality of false personae. Depending on circumstances people can do similar retreats into all kinds of attitudes, postive or negative -- cruelty, rudeness, being cunning, guilty, mocking, feeling hurt, feeling ridiculed -- as chronic ways-of-being, not acute emotional passages. Pressures from peers to act sneaky can have a similar whipsaw effect to pressures from parents or others to act good, dpending on who your latest overwhelm is by...

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 May 00 - 01:37 AM

Sorry about all of the *arrows*...it's late & I didn't realise it was so long!

kat

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: Amergin
Date: 24 May 00 - 01:55 AM

I know that when I write something and share it with others, either on the internet or live, I live for the responses I get, whether its praise or bashing (though bashing stings a bit). I hate it when I don't get any response at all. Also, when people tell me about how my poems affected them, I'm just blown away, because I don't see it. I don't feel, see, or whatever that they say I made them do. It just doesn't affect me.....

Amergin

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 00 - 05:29 AM

This might be easier to read.

Go Ahead, Be Bad, It's Good for You
by Bill Harris

For some of you, this article is going to be a stretch. For others, it will be a gift of freedom. Those of you for whom it is a stretch probably need the gift of freedom the most. Life is ironic at times.

I just met a very interesting man. His name is Dr. Al Seibert, and he
has spent his life researching the subject of resiliency. He often
talks about what he calls "the survivor personality."

We had a very electric, idea-packed lunch a few weeks ago, because we
found we had been coming at the same topic from different directions
and had much insight to offer each other.

As you may know, almost everything Centerpointe does is based on the
work of Ilya Prigogine regarding how complex systems (like human
beings) reorganize at higher levels of functioning. When this happens,
you indeed do become more resilient, more able to deal with whatever
comes up in your environment. Another way to put it is that you gain a
greater flexibility, where fewer things can throw you off-course, off
balance. You become a survivor, to use Dr. Seibert's phrase.

Dr. Seibert has identified a very interesting aspect of this idea of
resiliency -- a group of people who have little flexibility, who have
trouble dealing with change, and who are often (quite frankly) a pain
in the ass to be around.

Who are these people? You'll never guess.

They are people who were brought up to be........good.

Dr. Seibert calls it "the good child handicap." Most parents want their
children to grow up to be decent, well-liked, and responsible. They
don't want their children to turn out "bad." But efforts to create a
"good child" unfortunately (according to Dr. Seibert's lifetime of
research), often produce an adult who is not able to cope well with
life. Such a person is, in fact, very often an energy draining "pain"
for others to live and work with.

Are YOU good?

Most people who are survivors, who have this quality of resiliency, of
flexibility, have a paradoxical "two-sides-of-the-same coin" collection
of traits: selfish-unselfish, pessimist-optimist, sensitive-tough,
strong-gentle, distant-friendly, and so on. They have emotional
flexibility. In a given situation they have a much bigger repertoire of
possible coping skills. They can flow with what is happening much more
easily. They have fewer rules -- they make up their own rules as they
go along, to fit the situation.

Part of the problem is that most "good child" messages come in the form
of prohibitions -- what the parents want the child to NOT become or NOT
do. They use "bad" people as anti-models of how to behave, and think
they must eliminate and prohibit all traces of bad ways of thinking,
feeling, and acting.

A good child is one who is:

* not negative * not angry * not selfish * not dishonest * not
self-centered or prideful * not rebellious

What the child hears is:

* Don't talk back * Be polite * Be good * Stop pouting * Hang up your
clothes * Don't whine * Don't hit * Don't fight * Share with others *
Tell the truth * Stop complaining * Smile * Don't cry * Stop asking
questions * Don't be stuck-up * Don't be angry * Don't be selfish *
Don't chew with your mouth open * Don't pick your nose

And so on.

Many are "don'ts," others are "shoulds." All are rules, and the message
is "live life by these rules."

Unfortunately, being a good, rule-bound child prevents most people from
coping with rapid change, unexpected difficulties, and extreme crises.

Here is part of a letter Dr. Seibert received from Bill Garleb, an
ex-prisoner-of-war, after Garleb had read his description of the
"good-child" pattern:

"My need to comment is so strong I could not pass it up. When I went to
parochial school, as a child, if you changed your mind and could see
the other side of something, they accused you of being inconsistent, or
"thinking like a woman." In other words, they programmed you to be
polarized and one-sided, the opposite of what a survivor personality
needs to be to cope. I am overjoyed that I have learned that being
biphasic is good. I like myself better now. It is important to note
that, although I was trained and programmed as a child not to use
biphasic traits, when my survival was threatened, I relied on basic,
inborn traits and ignored conditioning."

To survive as an adult, Garleb had to go against how he was raised. His
experience is not unusual among survivors. But many people spend their
entire life trying to behave like a good child. And just as Prohibition
created serious societal problems in the 1920s, children raised with
inner prohibitions cause many problems for others.

Some typical actions of a "good" child trying to function in an adult
body are as follows. They:

* Smile when upset * Rarely let you know they are angry at you * Seldom
make selfish requests * Point out your faults, saying "I'm only telling
you for your own good." * Give "should" instructions to others * Get
upset with you and then say "You really hurt me." * Smile and
compliment people to their faces but say critical things behind their
backs * Alert and warn others about "bad" people * Cannot accept
compliments easily or agree they are good at something * When
confronted about something hurtful they said, they emphasize their good
intentions by saying, "But I meant well." * Fear being regarded as
hurtful, tough, selfish, insensitive, or uncaring

The irony is they were raised from childhood to be emotional liars.
They had to lie about their emotions -- it was what their parents
demanded of them. Rather than being emotionally honest, they had to
learn to present the "right" emotions and suppress the "wrong" ones.

The result is they come across as two-faced. They smile and agree, then
criticize in private. When asked to express a contrary opinion, they
are unable to do so -- until they are in private.

Instead of making open requests (which might be seen as being selfish),
they hint at what they want. Appeals to get them to ask for what they
want, or admit (normal) selfish desires, will have little effect.
Though they act in selfish ways, they cannot allow awareness of their
selfishness into their consciousness.

They must make sure you do not have the wrong impression of them. To
admit normal selfish or angry feelings would be to act like their
anti-model: bad.

Here is why these "good" people drain energy our of others and are such
a pain to live and work with:

* They do not give you useful feedback. Even if they are obviously
upset or angry, they can't admit it and talk about it. If they do admit
it, they have a victim reaction (whiny or angry). They blame you.

* They are deceptive. they can act in ways that are harmful to you but
convince themselves it is for your own good.

* Their efforts to have others have only good feelings about them often
causes the opposite reaction to occur. If they get a negative reaction,
they work even harder to get the positive reaction they want -- by
doing more of what caused the negative reaction in the first place.
their efforts then cause even stronger negative reactions, which leads
them to try even harder -- and so on. They do not have the flexibility
to try something else, but instead persist with their initial behavior.

* There is a hidden threat under their efforts to make you see them as
good. If you react negatively to their ways of trying to control what
others (or you) think and feel about them, they may decide you are a
bad person and punish you.

* They avoid empathy. They become slippery when you try to discuss an
upsetting incident with them. They may send you reeling with a sudden
accusation. Later, they may say "I don't remember saying that," or give
themselves a quick excuse.

* They have mastered the art of being emotionally fragile. No matter
how carefully you try to find a way to get them to listen, have
empathy, or observe themselves, they will find a way to become upset.
Then they try to make you feel guilty for upsetting them.

* The "good" person cannot distinguish between constructive and
destructive criticism. they react to unpleasant feedback as though it
is destructive and has a harmful effect. They believe if you really
care for them you will not confront them about their upsetting actions.
(This is much different from the flexible, survivor personality who
believes that if you care for them you will confront them about their
upsetting action so they can learn from the experience.) This is why a
"good" person remains at the emotional level of a child throughout
life.

* They feel unloved and unappreciated. Even though you give them lots
of love and attention, they experience very little. They can't take it
in.

* They are self-made martyrs. They blame you for the suffering you have
caused them, then forgive you so they can feel emotionally superior to
you.

* Confronting them makes things worse. They cannot handle a
confrontation about what they do because the victim style is the best
they can manage. They have almost no capacity for self-observation or
for conscious choices about thinking, feeling, or acting in different
ways.

The challenge for someone raised to be "good" is to develop new,
additional ways of thinking, feeling and acting. This requires courage
because it requires stepping outside the artificial shell of "goodness"
into risky, even frightening territory.

Anyone trying to act like a good child is vulnerable to being
overwhelmed when faced with challenges beyond the capacities of the
"act" they were trained to perform and the rules they were trained to
follow. This is why "good" middle class young people, when faced with
real world problems, are so vulnerable to cults. After years of being
praised for good conduct in school, it feels familiar to again sit
passively and listen to an authoritative person tell them how to think,
feel, and act in order to be a new kind of "good" person.

Having a flexible, resilient personality, on the other hand, is not a
way of being that can be learned from someone else. It is not an act
designed to replace the old one. It is, rather, the emergence of innate
abilities made possible by learning from experience and flexibly
responding to whatever is happening.

It would be a good exercise to consider to what degree you fit this
profile. How rule-bound are you?

I will be sharing more about this topic in the future, as I learn more.
For now, though, it's good to know that to whatever degree you were
trained to be "good" and to follow the rules, there is hope!

Bill Harris

http://www.centerpointe.com

--

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: GUEST,JulieF
Date: 24 May 00 - 05:49 AM

No - I can't let that go without comment. You are talking about people raised to fit in - not raised to be good. If you raise someone to be good. You teach modesty but praise achievement, you encourage freethought but get them to consider people feelings and put arguments carefully and with due consideration ( this is a bit of hard concept for teenagers who tend to see in balck and white). You encourage rounded open relationships as much as possible. This does not conflict with encouraging them not to push themselves in front of others and being considerate to others even if they are not being considerate to you. In most cases you may miss a couple of opportunities by not having the loudest voice shouting ME ME ME but do you really want them if that is how it is decided.

Julie

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 24 May 00 - 07:24 AM

Dear Amergin
I understand how you feel and I can relate. What I have come to realize is that within the no response to your postings can be found the biggest response of all. Sometimes people just want to chew on what you have written and digest it a bit.
Your effort to communicate your thoughts can be having a huge impact on someone else within all that silence.
To understand that, it is a matter of getting use to not being 'stroked' so much for it.
It is wise to lessen the need to be stroked so much, like Amos says, it can cause you to go blind.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 May 00 - 07:38 AM

cAnn soMeOn e helllp em .././. ?"?? i cAn"T seee thw SRCEEen aNNEymoRe....

SPaW

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 24 May 00 - 08:33 AM

Keep typing Catspaw, it will be your best medicine. If your hands are on the keys then they have no opportunity to be elsewhere.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 May 00 - 08:43 AM

jUstt , TEllllL me iff YU"'re weewwEarring whwITe sOcKss.>/??/?

SpAww

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 May 00 - 08:55 AM

It took four years of therapy and I don't know how many thousands of dollars to learn the "good" child in me was screaming to be "bad". Julie, you're right. This "good" is based on appearances only and has nothing to do with right or wrong. I will print Dr. S's observations out and share them if it's OK with Amos.

Little Neo - if Catspaw wants to play with things other than the keys, he has a right, NO an obligation to do so. Although I think he has the "good child" in him pretty well under control. And a little Nair works like a charm.