Subject: RE: Origins: Simple Gifts / 'Tis a Gift to be Simple From: CamiSu Date: 02 Feb 09 - 08:39 AM I have known Simple Gifts longer than I can remember, and when we got married, David and I used it as my processional. The only instrument we had was a recorder and everyone sang. It was really neat. CamiSu |
Subject: RE: Origins: Simple Gifts / 'Tis a Gift to be Simple From: johnross Date: 01 Feb 09 - 05:02 PM Copland used "Simple Gifts" in his suite of Old American Songs (first recorded by William Warfield in 1953) before the Armstrongs' 1961 Folkways LP brought it to the canon of the folk music revival. And Copland had used it even earlier as part of Appalachian Spring. So the song was probably well-known to classical music listeners before the Armstrongs' LP came out. As regular listeners to WFMT, it's more than likely that the Armstrongs knew the Warfield record, and it could have been one of their sources. Sidney Carter didn't get hold of it until 1963, when he adopted the melody for "Lord of the Dance." |
Subject: RE: Origins: Simple Gifts / 'Tis a Gift to be Simple From: Art Thieme Date: 01 Feb 09 - 03:58 PM I've resurrected the thread about Gerry Armstrong from when she passed away in 1999. It's just to further inform new people here about the music of George and Gerry---and their influence--and their musicality. Art |
Subject: RE: Origins: Simple Gifts / 'Tis a Gift to be Simple From: GUEST,Jerry Friedman Date: 01 Feb 09 - 03:49 PM Good to see you too, Joe. I'm thinking about trying to fix the tune for "He's Gone Away", but even if I do that I I'll be gone away before it would be worthwhile to reset the cookie. I did this because of a discussion at alt.usage.english in which someone said that SG was a lot like the "Surprise" theme, just as Jim McLean said here. This version of the tune is closer to Haydn's than the familiar one, very close to Haydn's for the first three lines, in my opinion—though a musician at a.u.e. disagreed. As for whether it should go in the database, I see your point about people being familiar with the Copland version, but the database does have some unfamiliar original versions, such as the 15th-century poem that "The Riddle Song" comes from. So it's there to add for the Lords of the Trad, if they think two versions might make people glad. (Assuming it really is Brackett's original.) Thanks for mentioning "Confess Jehovah", Dick. I can see and hear that the first eight notes are identical. And thank you too, Jack—I can hear the same phrase in the Bartok. But after those points, the tunes seem to go different ways. And whether one tune came from a similar one, or they came from a common origin, or the resemblance is accidental? I can't even guess. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Simple Gifts / 'Tis a Gift to be Simple From: greg stephens Date: 01 Feb 09 - 03:22 PM The Helston Furry Dance is another member of this tune family. They do not, of course, have to be interconnected. An idea so simple(no pun intended) will obviously occur to people anywhere, they dont have to have learnt it from someone else. I dont think Bartok got his ideas from Simple Gifts, for example(though he might have done). Its really just an ornamented run up and down a cchord, the atrting phrase of the Bartok and Simple Gifts. GBDB.After that, the tunes diverge completely. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Simple Gifts / 'Tis a Gift to be Simple From: Art Thieme Date: 01 Feb 09 - 03:20 PM I insist, another time, of putting forth George and Gerry Armstong of Wilmette, Illinois (where our governors make our license plates ;-) as the source of the song "Simple Gifts" within the American folk song revival. Art |
Subject: RE: Origins: Simple Gifts / 'Tis a Gift to be Simple From: Jim McLean Date: 01 Feb 09 - 03:17 PM Ignore the request, Dick, I googled it and she is quite right, at least there is a great similarity. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Simple Gifts / 'Tis a Gift to be Simple From: Jim McLean Date: 01 Feb 09 - 03:14 PM Dick, do you know where I could hear/read this tune? |
Subject: RE: Origins: Simple Gifts / 'Tis a Gift to be Simple From: dick greenhaus Date: 01 Feb 09 - 03:06 PM Elie Seigmeister thought that the "Simple Gifts" tune was derived from a seventeenth century hymn called "Confess Jehovah". There are certaily points of similarity. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Simple Gifts / 'Tis a Gift to be Simple From: Jim McLean Date: 01 Feb 09 - 07:04 AM Jack, Haydn's Symphony No. 94, the Surprise symphony can be heard here http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7mgNv6zEHdE The opening (2nd movement?)always makes me think of A Gift to be Simple. He was living between 1732 - 1809 so could this be an early form of the phrase? |
Subject: RE: Origins: Simple Gifts / 'Tis a Gift to be Simple From: Jack Campin Date: 01 Feb 09 - 05:41 AM Bartok used a Transylvanian relative of the tune in his First Rhapsody for Violin (and piano or orchestra, there are different versions). That was 20 years before Copland used it, and it obviously isn't directly derived from the Shaker tune. Both are two-part tunes but only the first parts match. I presume there are commentaries on the Bartok that identify exactly where he got it (he didn't say at the time) and place it in a Hungarian tune family. Here it is in a YouTube perfomance - 4'38" in: Erno Kallai plays Bartok Rhapsody no. 1 My guess is that both derive from a common Central European original. |
Subject: RE: Tune add: original Simple Gifts From: Joe Offer Date: 01 Feb 09 - 03:23 AM Hi, Jerry - It's good to see you back. If you'd like to stick around, e-mail me for cookie reset information [joe@mudcat.org]. I hope you don't mind that I moved us over to an existing thread on the song. I'd agree that what you posted may well be the original tune for "Simple Gifts," but it's not the tune that has been part of the Folkie Canon for most of my life. The tune for "Simple Gifts" in the Digital Tradition is this one:Now, I will agree that it is unfortunate we titled it lordance.mid - but I do think it's the tune people sing for "Simple gifts." For that matter, I think it's the tune that was played as "Simple Gifts" at the Obama Inauguration. Maybe Aaron Copland changed the original tune when he used it in Appalachian Spring (1944) - perhaps we should credit Copland for the MIDI we have, but it certainly predated Sydney Carter's "Lord of the Dance." -Joe- |
Subject: Tune add: original Simple Gifts From: GUEST,Jerry Friedman Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:44 AM Just a drive-by. Hi to anyone who remembers me from ten years ago or whatever. The tune for "Simple Gifts" in the database seems to be the modified tune for "Lord of the Dance". At least, it's called LORDANCE. The following tune is billed at the Wikipedia article as the original Shaker tune. Whoever added it to WP probably got it from Roger L. Hall, as seen here. If you squint, you may be able to convince yourself that the broadside offered for sale at that site shows the same tune. If this really is the original tune, maybe it should be used for all the versions of "Simple Gifts" in the database, with the LORDANCE tune only for "Lord of the Dance" (which I guess had to be removed). What do people think? X:1 T:Simple Gifts C: Joseph Brackett, Jr. (1797-1882) O:Alfred, Maine, U.S.A. S:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Gifts M:4/4 L:1/4 K:C g, g, | c c/2d/2 e/2c/2 e/2f/2 | g g/2g/2 e d/2c/2 | d d d d | d/2e/2 d/2B/2 G G | c/2B/2 c/2d/2 e d/2d/2 | e f g>g | d d/2e/2 d c/2c/2 | d c/2B/2 d2 | g2 e>d | e/2f/2 e/2d/2 c>d | e e/2f/2 g e | d d/2e/2 d>G | c2 c>d | e e/2f/2 g g/2g/2 | d d e e/2d/2 | c c c2 || To play or display ABC tunes, try concertina.net |
Subject: RE: Lyrics request: A Gift to be Simple From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 May 00 - 08:49 AM I see it as using a tune that's been used before, not lifting it. Sharing it. One result of Sydney Carter using the tune is that far more p[eople have become aware of teh song Simple Gifts than would otherwise have known it. (And he's always done his best to make people aware of where the tune came from, for that very reason.
Two different songs, each saying something different. Each has some qualities the other doesn't. It's a bit like a fiddle and a mandolin sharing the same tuning. "The mandolin has just stolen the tuning of the fiddle, and is nowhere near as fine sort of an instrument." |
Subject: RE: Lyrics request: A Gift to be Simple From: Art Thieme Date: 27 May 00 - 12:18 AM The first folks to ever record "Simple Gifts" within the American folk revival were my good friends George and Gerry Armstrong. It was included in their great LP for Folkways Records called simply SIMPLE GIFTS. (early 60s) They also recorded the song for Folk Legacy Records. The Armstrongs are the people we all must thank for bringing this obscure Shaker hymn to the fore. It's where Sydney Carter lifted his melody for what I feel is a lesser song---by quite a wide margin. Art Thieme
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Subject: RE: Lyrics request: A Gift to be Simple From: Penny S. Date: 26 May 00 - 05:43 PM Sydney Carter is listed in the index of the copyright group who we had to buy a licence from for the use of Christian songs in school when we didn't use a hymnbook, but an overhead projector. Penny |
Subject: RE: Lyrics request: A Gift to be Simple From: Dale Rose Date: 26 May 00 - 12:25 AM And I just found that the Lord of the Dance dates from 1963. Got that from McGrath's link to Sydney Carter. |
Subject: RE: Lyrics request: A Gift to be Simple From: Joe Offer Date: 26 May 00 - 12:15 AM My mistake, Bob - I corrected it above. When I looked a little closer, I found it in the sources I mentioned, and at the terrific Website McGrath referred to Click. Seems pretty certain the song was written by Shaker Elder Joseph Brackett in 1848. -Joe Offer- |
Subject: RE: Lyrics request: A Gift to be Simple From: Bob Bolton Date: 25 May 00 - 10:42 PM G'day Joe Offer, You ask who 'wrote' Simple Gifts. I notice that McGrath of Harlow mentions Joseph Brackett in a posting above. As I remember from when I chased this up a year ago for friends, to do with performance at a wedding, the Shaker lady who sang the song credits Joseph Brackett and records indicate the date to be around 1848. I will check, when I have time. I am coordinating about 30 folk musicians for a Colonial Ball tomorrow night and this does distract! Regards, Bob Boltom |
Subject: RE: Lyrics request: A Gift to be Simple From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 May 00 - 09:46 PM Yes indeed - I want to get hold of that one. (The track I clicked on, oddly enough, made me think of he Cistercian Salve Regina.) Many songs were composed by, or "given to", specific individuals in the community. I really like that -"given to" is how I feel any time I write a song I feel is a good one. |
Subject: Simple Gifts - Shaker Hymn From: Joe Offer Date: 25 May 00 - 09:37 PM This is good stuff. I might as well give you the rest of the album introduction. -Joe Offer- In the year 1774 there was a "gift" for those who felt able to come to America to preach the Gospel. In May of that year nine members, including Mother Ann, embarked on the ship Mariah for a two-month voyage to America. They landed in New York City on August 6. (Today we continue to commemorate this event with a special worship service). Several members went up the Hudson River to Niskayuna, just outside Albany. They purchased a tract of land and immediately set to building a home in the wilderness. |
Subject: Simple Gifts - Shaker Hymn From: Joe Offer Date: 25 May 00 - 09:27 PM I've been listening to a great CD called Simple Gifts: Shaker Music in America. It's a terrific collection of 34 traditional Shaker hymns. Here's an excerpt from the album notes: Shaker song, despite growing interest in the Shaker movement, remains virtually unknown to the general public. Reductionistically, one tune (admittedly, a beautiful one) has come to symbolize all of Shakerdom. Even that tune, Simple Gifts, is most often heard in reworkings, ranging in context and quality from the brilliant (Aaron Copland's Appalachian Spring) to the downright tacky (television commercials for expensive automobiles). And yet, Shaker music is so very much more! The large, mainly unpublished body of Shaker song contains untold treasures; it is important as music, as spiritual testimony, and as American cultural history. The repertoire fairly cries out to be heard on its own terms, in a simple, non-exploitative context.I found a review of the album (see link above) that says that "Simple Gifts," the most famous of all Shaker songs, was penned by Elder Joseph Brackett, 1797-1882. -Joe Offer- |
Subject: RE: Lyrics request: A Gift to be Simple From: MMario Date: 25 May 00 - 09:02 PM Many people seem not to know that "Lord of the Dance" isn't a traditional folksong. I heard it in a madrigal concert once, and it was introduced as a sixteenth century tune the shakers had "borrowed" |
Subject: RE: Lyrics request: A Gift to be Simple From: Jon Freeman Date: 25 May 00 - 08:18 PM Fair comment, Bob Jon |
Subject: RE: Lyrics request: A Gift to be Simple From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 May 00 - 08:15 PM I don't think you'll find him after you for royalties for singing his songs in clubs or sessions, or church. (And there aren't that many people who can write songs that are just as much at home in all these settings.....)
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Subject: RE: Lyrics request: A Gift to be Simple From: Bob Bolton Date: 25 May 00 - 12:08 AM G'day Jon, I think we should remember that Sydney Carter is a professional songwriter. Even Christians have to admit that the workman is worthy of his hire. Bob Bolton |
Subject: RE: Lyrics request: A Gift to be Simple From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 May 00 - 08:06 PM Well the Shakers would probably have said God wrote the melody.
As for Sydney Carter and Lord of the Dance. He prefers the term "carol" to hymn. "A carol was a dance before it was a song, and a song before it got into a hymn book. That applies almost exactly to the words and music which are prionted in this book" he writes in his preface to Green Print for Song which includes Lord of the Dance
And the hassle with Michael Flattley arose out of the way he just lifted the song, and applied the title to himself in a way that had more than a touch of - well you could call it hubris, or you could call it blasphemy. But it certainly deserved cutting down to size, and the money wasn't anywhere near the heart of it.
And Jon, you don't have to pick and choose between Simple Gifts and Sydey Carters's song. The new song doesn't replace the old one, it complements it. And Sydney would be the last person to suggest you should prefer his song. "I adapted this melody. I could have written another for the words of Lord of the Dance" he wrote "but this was so appropriate that it seemed a waste of time to do so. Also I wanted to salute the Shakers." |
Subject: RE: Lyrics request: A Gift to be Simple From: Stewie Date: 24 May 00 - 06:39 PM Those interested in Shaker music may like to know that Rounder has recently released a double CD, with 72 page booklet: 'Let Zion Move: Music of the Shakers' Rounder 0471/72. I haven't heard it, but the review I read said that it is 'well worth it if you have even the least interest in these people, their beliefs and way of life'. --Stewie. |
Subject: RE: Lyrics request: A Gift to be Simple From: Jon Freeman Date: 24 May 00 - 05:54 PM McGrath, perhaps I'm being stupid but who wrote the melody? Also, I am puzzled by what you said about Sydney Carter. I have always viewed his words as a hymn and I am surprised that a Christian (which I thought he was) should be wanting royalties... Jon (A Christian who prefers to sing "Gift to be simple" than Lord of the Dance) |
Subject: RE: Lyrics request: A Gift to be Simple From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 May 00 - 04:14 PM Oh yes, "name of composer" - I think it was a fella called Joseph Brackett. (That is according to this website They'd know more about it though. |
Subject: RE: Lyrics request: A Gift to be Simple From: Jacob B Date: 24 May 00 - 03:48 PM Appalachian Spring is the Copland piece that is based on Simple Gifts. |
Subject: RE: Lyrics request: A Gift to be Simple From: Peg Date: 24 May 00 - 03:21 PM also, check out Aaron Copeland's instrumental version; I do not know the name of it but one of his symphonies or other compositions is based around this theme... |
Subject: RE: Lyrics request: A Gift to be Simple From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 May 00 - 02:50 PM 'Tis a Gift to be Simple si Shaker song, also known as Simple Giftshere is something about the Shakers, and here is even more
The tune is probably even better known therough Sydney Carter's song, The Lord of the Dance, which borrowed the tune of Simple Gifts, - or through Michael Flattley's appropriation of this for his "look-at-me aren't I brilliant" musical extravaganza of the same name. (He thought The Lord of the Dance was a folk song, and ended up paying a substantial sum to Sydney Carter who wrote the song.)
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Subject: RE: Lyrics request: A Gift to be Simple From: MMario Date: 24 May 00 - 02:38 PM yes, it is a fairly well known song. A search for it on the internet on a site such as google should yield you somewhere in the neighborhood of 12 hundred or so sites... try seaching on "simple gifts" and Shaker |
Subject: RE: Lyrics request: A Gift to be Simple From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 24 May 00 - 02:21 PM I hope you can add this URL.http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=5343 to the locator and find it Guest.. The song is listed in the DT trads lyrics search engine at the top of the page.. Just put in the words and hit Go it will take you there. Or use this Url to find the site... Sorry I cannot do the blue clicky thing yet... Yours, Aye. Dave |
Subject: Lyrics request: A Gift to be Simple From: GUEST,rtryloff@saralee.com Date: 24 May 00 - 02:16 PM This is a project I am doing at work. I am not familiar with this piece of music (A Gift to be Simple), but gather that it is fairly well known. I am seeking the lyrics, name of composer, and any historical information available. I would appreciate any help anyone can give me! |
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