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Mudcat ABC Tune Guide

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GUEST,Grishka 11 May 13 - 11:38 AM
Jack Campin 11 May 13 - 09:11 AM
GUEST,Calum 11 May 13 - 08:03 AM
Artful Codger 09 May 13 - 06:17 PM
GUEST,Grishka 09 May 13 - 03:06 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 09 May 13 - 12:57 PM
Artful Codger 08 May 13 - 06:15 PM
pavane 08 May 13 - 02:29 PM
Nigel Parsons 08 May 13 - 10:52 AM
GUEST,Grishka 08 May 13 - 10:46 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 08 May 13 - 09:15 AM
GUEST,Grishka 07 May 13 - 10:40 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 07 May 13 - 09:12 AM
GUEST,Grishka 07 May 13 - 08:45 AM
GUEST,Calum 06 May 13 - 02:31 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 06 May 13 - 01:22 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 06 May 13 - 01:19 PM
GUEST,Grishka 06 May 13 - 12:00 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 06 May 13 - 09:02 AM
GUEST,Grishka 06 May 13 - 05:02 AM
Jack Campin 05 May 13 - 05:48 PM
GUEST,Grishka 05 May 13 - 12:49 PM
Nigel Parsons 05 May 13 - 10:34 AM
GUEST,Calum 05 May 13 - 08:26 AM
Chris Partington 05 May 13 - 07:59 AM
GUEST,Grishka 04 May 13 - 06:45 AM
GUEST,Grishka 03 May 13 - 05:59 PM
Jack Campin 03 May 13 - 04:08 PM
Chris Partington 03 May 13 - 03:32 PM
GUEST,Grishka 03 May 13 - 11:18 AM
Les in Chorlton 03 May 13 - 08:45 AM
Mark Clark 23 Jun 08 - 03:40 PM
DaveP 23 Jun 08 - 11:42 AM
DMcG 22 Jun 08 - 04:21 AM
DMcG 22 Jun 08 - 03:51 AM
DMcG 21 Jun 08 - 03:14 AM
semi-submersible 21 Jun 08 - 02:38 AM
GUEST,MCP 06 Jul 04 - 11:47 AM
John in Brisbane 06 Jul 04 - 09:47 AM
GUEST,Jon 06 Jul 04 - 09:16 AM
MudGuard 06 Jul 04 - 08:51 AM
John in Brisbane 06 Jul 04 - 08:38 AM
MudGuard 06 Jul 04 - 08:30 AM
John in Brisbane 06 Jul 04 - 08:24 AM
John in Brisbane 02 Jul 04 - 07:48 AM
Mark Clark 07 Dec 03 - 09:14 PM
John in Brisbane 26 Nov 03 - 10:26 PM
MMario 11 Jul 03 - 02:04 PM
MMario 11 Mar 03 - 08:37 AM
Ed. 10 Mar 03 - 05:31 PM
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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 11 May 13 - 11:38 AM

Calum,
Most of them post with some regularity at the abcusers group on Yahoo.
In my sample of threads, admittedly not too big, I encountered very few messages to the topic by JFM, and none by the authors of abc2midi and BarFly. I hope they are at least reading, and willing to comply to a new standard designed by CW and the other discussers. It did not work with ABC 2.0 though, so we must hope that they change their minds.
> The reasons why they didn't bother so far [to agree on interpretations of some basic ABC syntax] still escape me

Because creating a fully featured specification that is backwards compatible is incredibly difficult
I appreciate that; but again, the best standard is useless without programmers planning to implement it. In contrast, some minimal amount of communication between the major programmers would be easy, if they felt the need.
and different programs cater to different users with different needs.
That seems to be the real problem: each freeware programmer has his own ideas about winning the gratitude of a particular group of users. JFM, for instance, is an organist. Now those users who want to use abcm2ps and abc2midi, as frequently bundled, should insist on a higher degree of compatibility between the two than currently achieved. A while ago I wrote an email in French to JFM, who replied something like "Thanks for your bug report; will be fixed." —
For example, how do you write ABC for scordatura tunings that will print and play correctly?
I personally am more modest; see above for the requirements I believe to be sufficient for Mudcat purposes. The task is obviously still difficult enough, so that joint intellectual forces would be required. Do you really see this kind of cooperation, and predict its success in acceptable time?

Jack, if you refuse to read "abcusers", did you read the "proposals" on abcnotation.com, mentioned by Mick (06 May 13 - 01:19 PM)? What is your opinion? What strategies would you recommend to the ABC people and to Mudcat? BarFlyers may feel the need for a stable Mudcat standard more strongly than typical abcm2ps users. The same question goes to all ABC experts (which excludes myself, a grateful user of ...2abc and abc2... tools).


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 May 13 - 09:11 AM

how do you write ABC for scordatura tunings that will print and play correctly?

Use the "transpose" directives provided in BarFly. You write the notes played on the retuned string as a separate voice (to be played transposed) and merge them (untransposed) with the rest of the tune for display and printing.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: GUEST,Calum
Date: 11 May 13 - 08:03 AM

>> We must wait for relevant news from the principal programmers; whoever hears any should please inform us.

Most of them post with some regularity at the abcusers group on Yahoo.

>> The reasons why they didn't bother so far still escape me

Because creating a fully featured specification that is backwards compatible is incredibly difficult, and different programs cater to different users with different needs.

For example, how do you write ABC for scordatura tunings that will print and play correctly?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: Artful Codger
Date: 09 May 13 - 06:17 PM

As long as users explicitly tag their ABCs with the version they're coding to, the "volatile" features should be safe to use. In fact, if they're coding to any version prior to 2.1, things should work properly without a version tag, since the standard says that converters should default to 2.0 behavior, for backward compatibility. (Whether converters will actually follow suit remains to be seen.)

Similarly, since abcm2ps is the most widely used program for formatting, I would hope that developers would include support for a core subset of its extended features for any ABC versioned explicity or by default as 2.0 or before. The paucity of the "official" standard in regard to format control should not prevent users from using badly-needed features that already exist in this alternate de facto standard.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 09 May 13 - 03:06 PM

De-facto standard: Mudcat posters may well check thir tunes with mandolintab, but if they want their work to survive for another year or two, they are best advised to dispense with all those extra features of abcm2ps that are not contained in ABC 2.1, or are declared "volatile".

MuseScore: somewhere I read that the programmers planned to implement direct import and export of ABC, as soon as there is a stable standard. Until then, Mick, your own programming efforts may be welcome. The author of those Python tools updates them frequently, he can be googled as an "abcusers" member.

For my own occasional ABC needs, I use a notation program that predates MusicXML but with which I am very quick, and export the tunes to ABC via MidiZyx2abc.jar, then if desired to MusicXML via abc2xml.py. I agree with Artful that this is a makeshift; newbies will be better off with programs for which MusicXML support is available, e.g. MuseScore.

Mick, you seem to be a dedicated programmer; your efforts for our goal are greatly appreciated. The same applies to anyone else who can work for the standard we need.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 09 May 13 - 12:57 PM

Grishka - I sussed the abc2xml remote service after I'd posted. In fact I've now added my own plugin to do the reverse - output abc from a score using a local copy of xml2abc.py. I'll probably modify the import to use a local copy too, rather than needing the internet access. The export js needs a bit of work too - it's outputting to a fixed file at the moment; I need to add a file selection option like the abc import plugin has. It would also be nice to be able to add other headers to the output. But as proof of concept it's fine. It would also be nice if the import scanned a tunebook for the titles and let you select from the title list rather than using the default first tune only from the tunebook. I may look at that too.

Both of the python converters seem to work well. I imported Nigel's Adam Lay Ybounden and then re-exported the abc and used abcm2ps on it and the output looked fine.

The only problem the xml2abc.py has is that it outputs tempo changes on Q: commands after things like rit and accel, so the modified score not only has the text instruction but a MM value too. It's not really a problem (and I dare say it wouldn't be too difficult to add suppression of these as another command line argument).

I'll probably try this out for a while when I need to create some abc and see how I like the generated abc. It's a cheap solution to wysisyg creation of abc.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: Artful Codger
Date: 08 May 13 - 06:15 PM

Nigel, the converter (and interface) formerly hosted at folkinfo.org is now available at mandolintab.net. I trust it far more than the Concertina.net converter, which has a less flexible interface, was left to languish for many years without updates, and was glaringly misconfigured for guitar chords. Judging from comments above, most of these issues may now have been resolved, and the current maintainers may be making more commitment to keeping it up to rev. You can take your chances with it; I've given it up.

The mandolintab converter is free to use, requires no installation or user upgrading, and provides a sort of de facto portability standard, since everone can use it directly regardless of their own OS. The print output is very clean.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: pavane
Date: 08 May 13 - 02:29 PM

Grishka, I think my HARMONY does all that except LINUX. It is written in VB6, which is only available on Windows (Unlss anyone tells me otherwise). It also prevents me from deploying an internet version. I know a 'catter did try to get it working with WINE, but not fully successfully.

1. include support of multivoice tunes, particularly SATB choral music in modern clefs,

I think so, but let me know if it needs tweaking. Certainly up to 10 voices, and aligned lyrics as well

2. be supported by some free software for producing sheet music,

It prints sheet music itself

3. be supported by some free software for producing sound and MIDI files,

It produces sound and MIDI files itself - playback is via temporary MIDI files, which can be saved.

4. be supported by some free software for conversion to MusicXML,

It can export basic MusicXML, though I haven't fully implemented all decorators yet.

5. It supports much of abc2.1 as I understood it at the time.

It has many other facilities and functions that may or may not be unique, e.g. generating random tunes in the style of a jig or reel - some are almost usable. I am not sure that many people want to play tunes backwards, either - it is supposed to give inspiration for your composing.

Adding harmony/accompaniment to a melody line was the original aim.
It allows tune structures to be specified and played (eg AC(2ABc)) Also Melodeon tablature, string tablature, on-score drag and drop editing, note styles, tonic solfa, coloured notes - the list goes on.

Due to lack of interest, I haven't done any work on it for ages (And been too busy writing my book, which has now been published). Due to lack of LINUX, I haven't even looked to see what the other packages offer.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 May 13 - 10:52 AM

Mick:
Thanks for the info on "octave=-2" It's tested out fine. I had the problem because I hadn't found one reliable site for printing from ABC. I'd been using Folkinfo, but when it went down I started casting about.
I use MuseScore for quite a bit now for church music.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 08 May 13 - 10:46 AM

Yes, I know about MuseScore and the "plugin" you mention - it contains a call to a web service that runs abc2xml.py, and then uses the built-in MusicXML convertor. I am not a fan of web services for free software (- for commercial software we will probably have to accept it as a way of payment), all the more so as abc2xml.py is freely available, and so is the required Python environment for all platforms. Other people may prefer web services to installing Python or Java etc., either for simplicity or for security concerns.

Anyway, abc2xml.py (not to be confused with earlier attempts of similar names) is quite good for my demands, as I mentioned on the other thread. So is its converse xml2abc.py. I am not so sure about the MusicXML support of MuseScore; I remember that it had severe bugs a while ago. I do not use MuseScore regularly.

As for the standard compliance of the two tools, I don't know of any problem, neither with ABC nor with MusicXML. Still, it cannot possibly be any less "volatile" than the standards themselves. (ArtfulCodger tells us that MusicXML is not very well standardized either, though I have never heard of genuine problems that were not clearly seen as bugs. I guess any doubt can be resolved by experimenting in Finale - not a good way of defining a standard, to be sure, but effective.)

On some more reading in "abcusers", I am not convinced that we will soon see a good result. I cannot judge about the quality of the discussions and proposaly, but unless my sample was extremely unrepresentative, JFM and the other major programmers are scarcely involved. Chris Walshaw may have given up the hope even to repeat the relative/partial success of ABC 2.1. If neither he nor others offer a good standard to us, Mudcat must become active in the way I described above.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 08 May 13 - 09:15 AM

Grishka - I don't know if you've ever used MuseScore. It's one of the standard (free) packages for music writing in Linux, but it is cross-platform for Windown, OSX and Linux. The latest version (1.3 ,it's not in Ubunut repositories yet, but there's a ppa for it) has an improved abc import plugin - it imported Adam Lay Ybounden (with middle=d added to V3/4) - without any problems. I'm not sure of the import mechanism yet, it said you needed to be connected to the internet to use it - but it may be a way forward. At the moment it doesn't (afaik) have an abc export facility, but that might be rectifiable. I'll have a look at the source code later and see what's involved. If an abc export was available, then we would have a proper graphical input method for creating abc files. You might still want to use eg abcm2ps for final printing (or even the Lilypond export) but it looks promising. It might also be nicer to have the abc import handle multitune files - it was confused by an abc stylesheet header on another file I tried to import and only imported the first tune from a multitune file - I think it probably stops at the first blank line.
But these are relatively minor things to change.

If the import supported 2.1 and an export for 2.1 was written, it would be a possible uniform cross-platform program to use for abc

Mick


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 07 May 13 - 10:40 AM

Mick, let's hope for the best. I remember reading that Jean-François Moine refused to take any notice of ABC 2.0, and that it was eventually (about 2010) declared the official standard, apparently without anybody even considering implementing it. (ArtfulCodger professed to "stick to" it - with what software? "Read-only"?) To ABC 2.1, at least JFM complied to a large extent - presumably a case of Muhammad and the Mountain, JFM being the latter -, but the keeper of abc2midi did not seem to bother at all. These two at least had better striven for an agreement.

As much as we want a "non-volatile" new standard, Mudcat should not hail it before enough software has been pledged to support it.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 07 May 13 - 09:12 AM

Grishka - I think it's not so much that the programmers couldn't agree on a standard, as that there wasn't a real standard to agree to, and discussions on the 2.0 draft just went on and on. I hope now that Chris Walshaw is back at the helm that he will make final decisions on a standard based on the various discussions and that programmers will start to implement that standard.

I've started looking at some of the programs listed on the abcnotation software page. Many are just wrappers for abcm2ps/abc2midi or similar, so that cuts down the number of packages to look at.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 07 May 13 - 08:45 AM

Mick, thanks for your explanations. If I understand correctly, also your post to that other thread of 02 May 13 - 06:41 PM, the main problem is that the programmers cannot agree on a standard. If they could, it would be the ABC standard, regardless of what others write. (Chris Walshaw, the authors of those "proposals", and most other members of "abcusers" must probably be regarded as an "advisory board".) Even abcm2ps and abc2midi, often found bundled, differ in their interpretation of the standard, and each version of abcm2ps differs from its predecessors (let alone "fork-offs", as perhaps used in concertina.net). I doubt that anybody can enforce "an enforced standard" if the influential programmers don't bother. The reasons why they didn't bother so far still escape me; it may be a matter of policy (but why?, and why don't the users seem to protest?) or just lack of consciousness; in the latter case there is hope for improvement.

All we can do at Mudcat is to proclaim a "Mudcat ABC Standard" in due time. It should

  • include support of multivoice tunes, particularly SATB choral music in modern clefs,
  • be supported by some free software for producing sheet music,
  • be supported by some free software for producing sound and MIDI files,
  • be supported by some free software for conversion to MusicXML,
  • - all these for Windows, Mac, and Linux,
  • and never change in the future, except for extensions,
for which the best idea is to refer to a subset of a published standard officially accepted by all those programmers.

We must wait for relevant news from the principal programmers; whoever hears any should please inform us. Until then, ABC 2.1 as implemented in new versions of abcm2ps (presumably the engine of mandolintab.net), minus the "volatile" parts, can serve as the "Provisional Mudcat ABC Standard".


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: GUEST,Calum
Date: 06 May 13 - 02:31 PM

Jack, given you've just announced your interest in ABC on a publicly accessible forum, I'm struggling to see what information Yahoo can usefully learn about you.

And web forums are not a good substitute for most mailing lists I use. I would not visit it except when I had a problem, and I can provide a lot more help when other people's problems arrive directly in my inbox.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 06 May 13 - 01:22 PM

PS - Re the software. I've now set up my virtual XP machine (running in VirtualBox under Ubuntu12.04 - kvm was surprisingly a lot slower - and the virtual machine runs faster than my old hardware version!), so I'll try and have a look at the windows and linux versions of some of the available programs. It's a few years since I last did that, so it won't be a wasted exercise.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 06 May 13 - 01:19 PM

I agree Grishka - when you do post a tune, you'd like it to appear the same to everyone!

To summarize the current state of play, abc 2.1 is the current standard and this is what people should try and adhere to at the moment. But note that the intention of 2.1 was to iron out problems relating to single line tunes; various things relating to multi-voice tunes are liable to change.

To get an idea of the proposed changes to 2.1 being envisioned have a look at abc 2.1 proposals, which contains links to the main areas of proposed change from 2.1 to 2.2 (or 2.2.1 for minor changes). These relate mainly to how to handle multivoice tunes in a manner which will make them unambiguous (various points of synchronization and control between the various voices).

There is also a lot of discussion about the stylesheet directives (or alternative equivalent specification), particularly the things relating to printing tunebooks, giving greater formatting control down to page level, with commands having scope at file, tune, movement, and page,levels. This appears to have generated a lot of discussion and I if I read Chris Walshaw's comments correctly is likely to be left for a later revision of the standard.

One of the problems is the stated desire or Chris Walshaw's to maintain backward compatibility with the old versions of abc out there (of which there are no doubt countless files). This is a problem for software developers, since they have to allow for various old constructs as well as supporting the new ones. Personally I would favour being stricter about a new standard, but provide converters to bring old files up to the new standard. For really old files (abc 1.6 and 1.7, there would be very little change to make - only add an abc version header in many cases). From various version of the 2.0 standard there might be more to do, but while 2.1 is relatively close to 2.0, now would be a good time to make the converter. I would aim to make 2.1, or maybe 2.2, an enforced standard for new/updated software.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 May 13 - 12:00 PM

Thanks, Mick. I found out about octave=-2 myself, but I am still somewhat puzzeled about versions. I remember that using Concertina.net was discouraged at Mudcat, presumably because of such problems. It seems that mandolintab.net is our best bet; Mudcat may declare its behaviour the Mudcat Standard, for the time being. This thread is called "Mudcat ABC Tune Guide", so it is the right place for such declarations by authorized personnel (not by me). Of course we may run into problems if mandolintab updates to an incompatible software version.

I personally don't have any problems with printing my own music correctly, but if I post some ABC to Mudcat or elsewhere, I would like all its printouts, conversions to MusicXML, etc. to be equivalent, with any from a sufficiently long list of "good" software, and forever. (If necessary, I can live with a list of features to be avoided because of uncertain compatibility, similar to the one from abcm2ps against ABC 2.1.) Am I asking too much? Can we hope for such lists, if not from abcnotation.com, then from the Mudcat experts?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 06 May 13 - 09:02 AM

Grishka - the last two voices V3, V4 in Nigel's abc should include some extra information to print correctly

In 2.1 octave=-2 as well as the clef=bass will treat the notes as being two octaves below the written notes (eg written D is treated as D,,)

In 2.0 (and 2.0draft) you'd have to add middle=d as well as clef=bass to get the same effect.

It looks as though the concertina.net converter assumes middle=d for the bass clef, though I don't think any of the standards make that default. The mandolintab.net converter applies the 2.1 standard - it needs either octave=-2 or middle=d to print the bass clefs correctly.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 May 13 - 05:02 AM

I see, Jack: it is Yahoo whom you accuse of spamming, not the members of abcusers. These seem to operate in full public with their own names, many of them known to us as programmers or musicians, and volunteering their email addresses on their own websites, so that they do not seem to have any wish for privacy. (I always wonder though, particularly at Mudcat, whether posters of "contentious" messages are aware that these can be googled by anyone interested in the person, not in the subject.) Anyway, you can read "abcusers" without compromising your privacy.

The question remains whether we can hope for a common standard supported by the major ABC software and websites soon, also to become the Mudcat standard. It took me some time to tweak the "weird notes in the lower staves" of Nigel Parson's example into my abcm2ps.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 May 13 - 05:48 PM

Shortly before the abcusers list was taken there, Yahoo announced they were going to sell their database of subscribers to anyone who'd pay. There was huge outcry that forced them to change their position, but the fact that they ever considered doing it shows them to be a bunch of slime. And their record of protecting users' privacy since has been abysmal. So, no way in hell am I ever going to subscribe to any list hosted at Yahoo.

There is a working forum at abcnotation.com, which is a well-designed and well-run site - why not use it and migrate the Yahoo message base there?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 05 May 13 - 12:49 PM

On a public forum, some contention is inevitable, as we see on Mudcat. Is it only about details, or are there politics involved? Jack, you call the "abcusers" group "hijacked", and on yet another forum (easy to google) you wrote about spamming <expletive>s. Do we have to fear a new schism among programmers? And if so, what is the main issue? Does "spamming" indicate commercial interests?

Nigel, your example illustrates nicely that there is still something left to do regarding compatibility. I hope the train is not going the other direction.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 May 13 - 10:34 AM

For those doubting the versatility of ABC, here's one I prepared earlier (Christmas before last)
At "Mandolintab" it gives some weird notes in the lower staves, but at Concertina.net it gives a lovely print out in PDF, ready to sing.(complete with 4 part harmonies, an words linked to each part separately)

X: 1
T: Adam lay ybounden
M: 3/4
L: 1/4
C: Boris Ord (1897-1961)
Z: NP 31/10/2011
K: D
V: 1
B>B A/2 B/2 | F F2 | B>d c/2B/2 | F3 | dcd | BB2 | A/2A/2 B ^G | F3 | F2 F/2B/2 | A A>A | d>d A/2B/2 | A2 z | AAB | (A/2G/2) G2 | F/2F/2 G B | F3 | d d/2d/2 c/2d/2 | A/2A/2 A>A | d>f e/2d/2 | B3 | e/2e/2 d/2d/2 e | A A>B | c d/2 e/2 f | e3 | d d c/2B/2 | A2 A | f>f e/2 d/2 | e3 | e>e f/2d/2 | e e e/2f/2 | (g>f d/2e/2 | f>e c/2)d/2 | e f d | (B>A B/2d/2 | c)(>BA) | B3 ||
w: A-dam lay y-bound-en bound-en in a bond; Four thou-sand win-ter thought he not too long. All for an ap-ple, an ap-ple that he took, as clerk-es find-*en writ-ten in their book. Ne had the ap-ple tak-en been, the ap-ple tak-en been, Ne had nev-er our la-dy A been hea-ven-é queen. Bless-ed be the time that ap-ple tak-en was, There-fore we moun sing-en, De-o gra_____-ci-as! De-o gra___-ci-|as!
V:2
F F E/2D/2 | C C2 | D F E/2D/2 | (D C2) | F (F/2E/2) A | A2 G | F/2F/2 F (E/2D/2) | C3 | D2 C/2B,/2 | C C>F | G>F E/2D/2 | C2 z | F (F/2E/2) F | E D2 | D/2D/2 D E | C3 | F F/2G/2 A/2F/2 | E/2E/2 E F | F F G/2A/2 | (A G2) | G/2G/2 F/2F/2 E | D F F | A A/2A/2 F | A3 | d d c/2B/2 | A2 A | A A A/2^G/2 | A3 | ^G A A/2F/2 | A A =G/2A/2 | (B>A F/2)G/2 | A2 A/2F/2 | (B A) A | A G>G | G2 F | ^D3 ||
w: A-dam lay y-bound-en bound-en in a bond;| Four thou- *sand win-ter thought he not too| long. All for an ap-ple, an ap-ple that he took, as clerk-*es find-en writ-ten in their book. Ne had the ap-ple tak-en been, the ap-ple tak-en been,| Ne had nev-er our la-dy A been hea-ven-é queen. Bless-ed be the time that ap-ple tak-en was, There-fore we moun sing-en, De-o gra_-ci-as! De-o gra-*ci-as! De-o gra-ci-as!
V: 3 clef=bass
d' d' c'/ b/ | b ^a2 | b f g/2g/2 | (b ^a2) | =a a d' | d'2 e' | c'/2c'/2 d' b | (b ^a)>f | b>b a/2b/2 | f f>f | b>d' c'/2 b/2 | f2 z | d' c' d' | b b2 | a/2a/2 b g | f3 | a d'/2d'/2 a/2a/2 | d'/2d'/2 c' c' | b b b/2a/2 | d'3 | b/2b/2 d'/2c'/2 (b/2c'/2)| d' c' d' | e' d' (a/2b/2) | c'3 | d' d' c'/ b/ | a2 e' | d' d' e'/e'/ | c'3 |b c' d'/d'/ |d' c' =c'/c'/ | d'2 b | d'>(c' a/2)b/2 | (b/2c'/ d')>a | (b/c'/) d'>b | (e' d') c' | b3 |
w: A-dam lay y-bound-en bound-en in a bond;| Four thou-sand win-ter thought he not too long. *And all was for an ap-ple, an ap-ple that he took, as clerk-es find-en writ-ten in their book. Ne had the ap-ple tak-en been, the ap-ple tak-en been, Ne had nev-er our| la-dy A been hea-ven-é| queen. Bless-ed be the time that ap-ple tak-en was, There-fore we moun sing-en, De-o gra-ci-as! De-*o gra-**ci-as! *De-o gra-*ci-as!
V: 4 clef=bass
d' d e/e/ | f f2 | b d e/e/ | f3 | d a f | g2 e | f/f/ d e | f3 | Z | Z |Z | Z | d a d | e g2 | d/d/ B e | f3 | d d/e/ f/f/ |a/a/ a f |b d e/f/ | g3 | e/e/ b/a/ g | f f d |a f/f/ d | a3 | d' d' c'/b/ |a2 c' |d' d' c'/b/ | a3 |e a d/b/ | a a =c'/c'/ |(g/a/ b>g |d/e/ f>)b | g (d/e/) f |(g2 f | e2) f | [B3f3] |
w: A-dam lay y-bound-en bound-en in a bond; Four thou-sand win-ter thought he not too long As clerk-es find-en writ-ten in their book. Ne had the ap-ple tak-en been, the ap-ple tak-en been, Ne had nev-er our la-dy A been hea-ven-é queen. Bless-ed be the time that ap-ple tak-en was, There-fore we moun sing-en, De-o gra_____-ci|as! De-*o gra__ci-as!


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: GUEST,Calum
Date: 05 May 13 - 08:26 AM

It is possible to subscribe to the abcusers group at yahoo directly by emailing abcusers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - one does not need to sully one's browser.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: Chris Partington
Date: 05 May 13 - 07:59 AM

Yes, Jack, I'm afraid you have to go to the Yahoo group as mentioned to find out what's going on. One of the driving force members is anxious that it's gone a bit quiet, but my reading of this is that Chris Walshaw is formulating a proposal incorporating the recent discussions about transpositions and other matters, which are very technical and have been very contentious. He cannot rush this and also he has a very active life outside of his computer.

The topical debate on the ABC users group as it stands at the moment (and anyone could join and change its character) is mainly focussed on development matters, as it is felt important to further progress this after the near decade of stagnation, while the iron is hot.

However, there is also a fairly regular stream of other questions that arise in people's daily experience of using ABC.

Chris Walshaw's ABC Notation
site remains the principal ABC hub, containing information, a little used forum, and links, and also an excellent ABC tune search engine.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 04 May 13 - 06:45 AM

Jack, obviously Chris talks about that Yahoo group "abcusers", which is also mentioned on the official site http://abcnotation.com/. It can be read without registration. I just browsed through some recent threads containing discussions as mentioned by Chris, very technical. Members include (persons who sign as) Chris Walshaw and Jean-François Moine, though posting infrequently. I wonder whether "abcusers" is really the "Inner Circle" - it looks very public, in spite of requiring registration for posting.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 03 May 13 - 05:59 PM

Chris, I was referring to Mick Pearce's posts at the thread "Midi, abc and words", not to any wisdom of my own. I am glad to read that his rather gloomy prognosis is not shared by everybody. Of course I know about the 2.1 standard as described on abcnotation.com, with its many "volatiles" (but to some extent supported by abcm2ps, in contrast to 2.0). Although I do not miss any feature at the moment, I am looking forward to the fruition you are announcing, to feel on safer ground.

I would appreciate if you and other discussers kept us informed from time to time.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 May 13 - 04:08 PM

Where is this discussion happening? The forum at http://abcnotation.com seems to be moribund. The only other forum I know about was the old one at Toby Rider's site, which somebody hijacked to Yahoo (where I flatly refuse to go, so I've no idea what happened to it there).


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: Chris Partington
Date: 03 May 13 - 03:32 PM

Grishka says "On another thread I just learned that the ABC standard is still somewhat in confusion".

I don't understand why you say that. I have been following the intense discussions on the abcusers discussion list over the last three years or so, even if I have not fully understood some of them. I would characterise the atmosphere there as re-invigorated and somewhat optimistic after a dormancy of nearly a decade where nothing progressed. There has been a new standard agreed, v2.1, the first for over a decade, which deals with some of the unresolved issues from the abandonment of the proposed v2.0 in c2003.
The current discussions for the next version, to deal with new functionality, are ongoing if a little quiet ATM while everybody has a big think, but hopefully shouldn't be too long in coming to fruition.
ABC is in better health than it has been for over a decade.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 03 May 13 - 11:18 AM

Les, you mean the spam that has now been deleted by the elves ("I ordered from ***.ru and received my parcel four days later ...")?

Sometimes we must be grateful to the spammers - I would welcome this thread to be updated. On another thread I just learned that the ABC standard is still somewhat in confusion. Whoever has news from the Inner Circle is welcome to leak it here anonymously ;-).


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 03 May 13 - 08:45 AM

It's easy for you to say that


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: Mark Clark
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 03:40 PM

I think most use of ABC notation has moved to the ABC Plus Project. At least the ABC Plus project references the best collection of tools and documentation available for the notation.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: DaveP
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 11:42 AM

I have a free ABC to TAB converter program written in VB6.

If you wish to try it please follow the folowing link.


ABC to TAB converter (on page 3)

Download the zip file. Copy the contents into your desired folder.
click on ABCtoTAB.exe and off you go!

The first 5 tunes in the 'FIRST50BIG.ABC' file will give an idea of what the program can do.

Quick intro to program use

Hilight the required instrument and tuning
Guitar   - EADGBE   
Guitar   - DADGBE
Guitar   - DADGAD
Mandolin - GDAE


Double left click to select items in the folder, file and tune list.

A selected tune is displayed in the large text box.

Left click the 'Make TAB' button to create the TAB.

The main window will close and a 'TAB generated' window will open.

Closing the 'TAB generated' window (left click on 'x') will return you to the main window.

If an ABC line is too long to be converted the source file in the
main window can be edited.

Any questions or comments please contact me here

Have fun,
DaveP


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 04:21 AM

Ok, its probably a bug! In the 1.7.6 draft and later, the correct form is

M:none

As far as I can see, though, this is not defined for the latest official version (1.6)


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 03:51 AM

I'm not sure if this an undocumented feature or a bug, but putting a meter of

M:

suppresses the time signature for all the abc software I am using. This has been useful for my latest entry at folkinfo where the song as printed by Cecil Sharp had no time signature and it varies bar-by-bar.

Omitting the M: line (or using M withour a colon) gave 4/4 time.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 03:14 AM

You can use http://www.walshaw.plus.com/abc/ to get at what used to be a Greenwich University

I have never use the backslash myself but it is to do with joining lines together.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: semi-submersible
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 02:38 AM

I tried to follow the links above to the Official abc Notation Site but the University of Greenwich website doesn't recognise that address anymore. Is there a new location for comprehensive ABC information? I would like to learn more about advanced features like synchronised lyrics, since ABC is a portable format I can actually read or write without extra hardware or software.

I haven't figured out what the backslash \ means in ABC files (found through JC's ABC Tune Finder through DigiTrad Power Search) such as Erich Rickheit's conversion of The Streets of London. (This clicky doesn't work: http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/abc/STLONDON.abc.)

- another MCP in BC


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 11:47 AM

John (in Brisbane)

I've just had a call from Les suggesting you've had trouble e-mailing me. Did you get the missing files - I did send them when I got your last e-mail (24 May)? Let me know if you didn't.

I've just sent you another e-mail suggesting contacting me through a PM to Zany Mouse if there's a problem.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 09:47 AM

Yes Mudguard, the problem is truly his. I guess it's like hanging a WET PAINT sign. By all means try it out, but until Andre fixes it you'll end up with sticky fingers.

And Jon, welcome to the world of old crocks. I only have to sit on a Virgin flight for a couple of hours and end up with rooter's rick. If only!

Regards, John


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 09:16 AM

Strange, the last post I saw from him on abcusers (11-June-2004) said:

"That was mine. I took it down since my server now is so slow that it
doesn't make much sense... When I get something faster I'll probl. put it online again."

Maybe he now has something faster.

I may be re-instating my own attempt at this sort of thing soon. The holdups have been due to me having a back so bad I couldn't sit at the computer for more than 5 minutes, a problem with a domain re-registration and now BT have messed our phoneline up and I don't want to be uploading/downloading stuff on pay as you go dial up which I'm being forced to use because of crossed phone lines...

I took ours down because I discovered that abcmp2s can loop if it gets bad abc and once had an ISP phone me up asking what it was, why it was using most of the servers processing for so long, etc. It would be OK if I could afford my own server but not what you risk when you are sharing services with many other users on the same server. John Chambers has given me some code using signal.h that should cause abcm2ps to terminate itself if it runs for more than a few seconds and I plan on trying to compile my own version of the program with this code added to give me the safety net I need.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: MudGuard
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 08:51 AM

John, I also get an error when using pdf as output - Acrobat Reader says "File does not begin with %pdf-".


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 08:38 AM

... continued/

The developer is Andre Jensen and you'll find his On-Line ABC utility Here.

Nearly forgot to mention that the On-Line version should operate under any operating system which can access the Web and does not require that you have PHP installed in your machine.

Best Regards, John

PS There is a downloadable version of the PHP script at Andre's site. For the very curious you would need to download a version of PHP (from php.net) and you would need your own versions of abc2ps and abc2abc installed on your PC. For true devotees only.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: MudGuard
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 08:30 AM

John, could you provide a link to that page?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 08:24 AM

I've just come across a site which claims to:

- Transpose ABC tunes On-Line.
- Produce 'printed' file versions in either (.ps) PostScript or (.pdf) Acrobat Reader format. In fact you will need a PostScript Reader (GhostScript and GhostView) or Acrobat Reader for the .pdf files.

The author has written the scripts in PHP, (a Web scripting language that I'd never heard of until an hour or so ago), largely as a scripting exercise.

The truth is that even though the transposition seems to work OK, the print file output appears to be corrupted. I'm sure that the author will iron out the bugs at some future stage.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 07:48 AM

I've mentioned in another thread about a website which allows you to create Harmonica Tablature using (amongst other things) ABC Notation.

Click Here for On Line Harmonica Tablature.

Regards, John


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: Mark Clark
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 09:14 PM

Here is an example of Byzantine notation from the EBYPES project site on Byzantine chant notation. This ancient form has been used as music notation far longer than European notation and was designed exactly to express the subtile nuances of pitch found in eastern music. I don't read Byzantine notation but there are many priests and chanters who still read it today.

I don't know whether a system like this was ever used for secular music but there must have been some form of written expression as eastern music developed.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 10:26 PM

Long time no post. This is not a subject for the faint hearted, but for the billions of people on this planet who play instruments that employ quarter tones some mods have been made to accomplish this - plus some unofficial changes to the ABC Standard to suit.

http://anamnese.online.fr/iran/persian_music.html focusses on Persian Music but could be used for a variety of music genres East of Istanbul.

Regards, John


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: MMario
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 02:04 PM

HAHAHA! I just actually READ some of the guide...rather then skimming it for the specific things I needed...

Large quadrepeds! Small animals! *chortle*


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: MMario
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 08:37 AM

*if* being the operative word...


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Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: Ed.
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 05:31 PM

Mmmm, OK Mark,

Reality doesn't quite work like that...


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