Navan - Gaelic singing group

Subject: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: Alice
Date: 29 May 00 - 03:10 PM

I just got an email from this group today. Here is a site worth visiting, with lyrics, translation, and sound files. The group is in the US. They sing in the languages of Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Brittany, Cornwall and the Isle of Mann. The "about us" section is interesting. Lyrics are found on the music page.

Navan - www.navan.org

Alice Flynn

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 May 00 - 07:53 PM

The musical samples are lovely; thankyou for pointing us to them.  Unfortunately, Navan seem to have some rather strange ideas about...well, history.  Flower of Scotland (translated into Gaelic) appears to give no credit to its composer, Roy Williamson (who wrote it in English.)  They also say "in many cases, the lyrics were composed thousands of years ago"; I'd be extremely interested to know which ones they are talking about, and what evidence they have to support such a bizarre statement!

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: Alice
Date: 29 May 00 - 08:21 PM

Malcolm, I think you should email to them about these errors. I just noticed them, too.

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 29 May 00 - 08:44 PM

I have listened with delight to these singers. Their arrangements lend a new dimension to Irish singing, not quite on a par with the Voice Squad - and that's not a criticism. So they get a few details wrong! Their pronunciation is bit astray as well, but that will improve with time. I would encourage this group. There is so much that is decidedly third-rate in so-called "Celtic Music" (a quite meaningless term)that the appearance of real musicality is to be welcomed. Annraoi

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: Alice
Date: 29 May 00 - 09:00 PM

I invited them to join the Mudcat. I hope they do.

I can only guess that they sent me an email because I have links about sean-nós on my website.

I need to upgrade my RealAudio. I couldn't get the sound files to play.

Alice

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 May 00 - 09:43 PM

Alice:

You can get the latest Real Audio Player here:  www.real.com  It's a rather aggressive piece of software, though, so make sure that you don't let it install icons all over the place; and be sure to disable StartCentre! (I had to delete a whole bunch of shortcuts, even after telling it I didn't want any).

I certainly didn't intend to seem churlish about this band, by the way; as I said, the music is very pleasant indeed.  I do worry a bit about the "ancient celtic" thing; it's unnecessary and misleading, and I'd have thought that anyone who really cared about the music would want to do a little more research before coming out with that sort of romantic silliness.  Still, we all have to start somewhere, and I do hope that they get involved with the Mudcat: I'm sure we could have some very interesting discussions, which I would certainly look forward to.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: Mbo
Date: 29 May 00 - 09:45 PM

Wow, are they named after Navan Fort, the modern name of Emain Macha?

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: Brendy
Date: 29 May 00 - 10:01 PM

That's Eamhaín Macha, Mbo. (Arragh!) Check this out

I 'sort of like' the stuff. I'm a bit put off by 'orchestral' arrangements, but it's not bad at all.

B.

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: Willie-O
Date: 30 May 00 - 03:45 PM

Don't know from Navan the band, but near my childhood home (east of Ottawa) is a hamlet called Navan. Always thought it was a French name, since the folks that live there are mostly francophones. So is this a spot and/or surname in Ireland, then?

Willie-O

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: Alice
Date: 30 May 00 - 05:09 PM

Síle from the group tells me she just joined Mudcat, so if you see this, welcome to the Forum, Síle! You will surely get lots of feedback from this diverse community.

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: Síle Máire
Date: 31 May 00 - 04:23 PM

Hello folks,

Thank you, Alice, for the plug, link and welcome! And thanks to all for your comments and discussion here.

Roy Williamson is not credited on the site because no one is--yet. Our fellow singer/webmistress has just finished a year of grad school; I don't know how she managed to churn out as much HTML as she did between gigs and final exams! Tune, verse and translation information are in the CD booklet, certainly, and will be up on the site soon.

As to carbon-dating verse--academically, I was reared in the linguistic camp and find it only natural to follow 11-17th c. recorded verse back to significantly earlier renditions, all the more confidently for those in the ilk of "Binn Sin, a Luin Doire an Chairn" which have attestations in both Irish and Scottish MSS (see Royal Irish Academy MS 23 D 38.) Time spent with the elderly singers (Irish or otherwise) accustoms one to using "thousands" without a second thought; I do believe "thousands," (rather than "hundreds," for example) comes far closer to accurately representing the span of traditional song.

This said I must hasten--yea, leap--to add that I firmly respect the right of all to analyze the evidence as they see fit, and am not in the least offended by opinions contrary to my own. It is a real joy to find a group of people engaging in serious discussion of the matter. My involvement in traditional song revolves now around a busy schedule of singing and teaching, but I hope to find time to read and post with some frequency.

Ádh mór oraibh, best wishes to all,

Síle Shigley (P.S. Our dialect of Irish is fairly straightforward Gaoth Dobhair i.e. "-ort" for "-ocht," "-áighe" for "-áire" and a few other localisms...other than that, if there's something that sounds off, we welcome all observations and thank you in advance.)

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 31 May 00 - 08:00 PM

Pleased to meet you, Sile.  My own background is in linguistic history, too (not Irish, mind) which is why I'm always suspicious of claims to great antiquity unless I can see the evidence.  "Thousands of years" does seem, on the face of it, a little over-ambitious, but I'm always ready to be proved wrong!  I look forward to meeting you in other discussions.

Best Wishes

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: Peg
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 10:33 PM

refresh...

I was interested in seeing this again. I have recently formed an a cappella group with three other people and we are singing songs in Irish, Gaelic, Cornish, Breton and Welsh...

oh and English, too.

We are doing our first gig in December in Boston.

Peg

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: Kaleea
Date: 17 Nov 01 - 01:25 AM

I heard Navan at a festival a few weeks ago, and thoroughly enjoyed the singing. As a voice major, I am especially interested in hearing a capella voices. They sound pretty good for untrained singers. I have enjoyed the cd, too. Kaleea

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: MartinRyan
Date: 18 Nov 01 - 03:13 PM

Kaleea

"They sound pretty good for untrained singers." I love that! How often have I listened to singers doing traditional material and thought "Not bad for a trained singer"!

Regards

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 18 Nov 01 - 04:15 PM

Chuala mé ag an Milwaukee Irish Fest iad agus fuair mé a ndiosca beag*. Taitnionn sé liom. Is ea iarracht brea é. Maith siad.

Rich

* Tá fhios agam go bhfuil focal níos fearr na "diosca beag" ar "CD", ach rinne mé dearmad é.

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: paddymac
Date: 18 Nov 01 - 06:00 PM

Peg (and Sile) "Good on ye" and good luck to you and your groups. Nothing can touch the soul like good a capella singing, especially the choral variety. Being neither a "trained" musicologist nor linguist, I don't know how to distinguish between a capella singing in accord with musical conventions from the renaissance era and "sean nos" singing, which I assume stylistically pre-dates the renaissance by a significant span. Part of the difference is likely in "non-standard" tuning and in the variance of vocal intervals within an octave. Not being a Gaelic speaker, I hear Gaelic singing differently than a speaker would, and thus respond to it differently. The voice(s) is/are the equivalent of instruments, and I can respond to the emotive pulls of the sounds rather than to the message of the words. I'm not sure if I'm explaining that in a sensible fashion. Hope so. Moreover, Gaelic seems (at least to my ear) better suited to the sean nos style than English. I have the sense that the sounds in Gaelic can almost be "swallowed" by a sean nos singer. Perhaps it's that they are created further back in the throat or some such, but either way, the sensation adds to the enjoyment for me as a listener.

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: GUEST,Mikey joe
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 04:24 AM

Has anyone here ever actually been to Navan (Co. Meath)- Jaysus knows as to why you'd name your band after it.

I presume they just stuck a pin in a map of Ireland.

Mikey (Grumpy) joe

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 04:39 AM

Rich

Deirtear "dlúth-diosca" nó "dlúth-cheirnín", ceapaim.

Le meas

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: GUEST,Mad Morrigan
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 08:35 AM

Hey Grumpy Mikey joe,

And doesn't the name Navan illustrate perfectly why they came to sing in Donegal dialect too.

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: GUEST,Mad Morrigan
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 09:05 AM

Oops, meant to add a bit more before the message popped off!

I believe the association with Navan is likely to the fort, and Navan being an ancient "capital" of Ulster. They sing in "Ulter" or Donegal dialect, and some in the band have taken a workshop from Lillis O Laoire (according to their now somewhat out of date website). Lillis is currently the foremost academic authority on Donegal sean nos. He teaches at the University of Limerick's World Music Centre, if I remember correctly.

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: Peg
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 09:14 AM

I got to hear Lillis perform at Harvard some years back; in fact it was a singaround and he was very gracious. He even offered a critique of my Gaelic (not irish) pronunciation, saying i was "overpronouncing" it 9which was true and I have since reworked the song to reflect this. He also gave an interesting talk/paper on sean nos singing, during which I asked a fairly naive question belying my "classical training" roots...when he answered it came off a bit arrogant but we talked later and he offered some wise words on finding one's voice and vocal style in traditional music (he knew I was a singer). I hope to get a chance to hear him again.

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: GUEST,Mikey Joe
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 12:14 PM

You are correct Lillis O' Laoire does teach in the University of Limerick he also teaches Irish as well as stuff in the IWMC i think. Well he used t when I was a student there. Why would Navan (only an hour from Dublin) have anything to do with Donegal irish? I have never noticed any similarity between Irish speakers from Meath and those from Ulster. I have noticed more of a likeness between Connaught Irish and Ulster Irish. Anyway I think I'm getting iff the point sorry. My original post was made early on a Monday morning. I'm cheering up as I'm off to a session in a few ghours tiome now.

Slán agus beir bua

Mj

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 01:37 PM

BTW Mikey joe--I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with your assessment of Navan. ;-)

Navan fort, near Armagh is the Ulster connection if I'm remembering my ancient Irish history reading?

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: GUEST,Mad Morrigan
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 01:38 PM

Oops--above is me, forgot to fill in blank before mailing. Sorry, I'm a bit new at this.

Slan go foill.

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 03:20 PM

Martin Ryan wrote "Deirtear "dlúth-diosca" nó "dlúth-cheirnín", ceapaim"
I used to hear dlúth-diosca used for CD, but since it's also used for the hard disc of the computer, dlúth-cheirnín has gained favour.
By the way, there are several terms for a mobile phone (Americans say cell phone) - we already had a choice of guthán or fón and that can now be modified by poca (pocket), so-ghluaiste (mobile) or lámh (hand)

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 03:48 PM

Philippa

I mostly hear "so-ghluaiste" - apart from those who simply Gaelicise "mobile" e.g. "mo mhobile"!

Regards

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 08:01 PM

I contacted "Navan" some time ago and thought their arrangements very tasteful indeed. Their adherence to Ulster Irish (self-confessed) lead me to conclude that they took their name from "Eamhain Mhacha" in Co. Armagh. I feel that any attempts to equate this with "Navan" in Co. Meath is mischievous at best, and stemming from ignorance at worst.
The two Anglicised forms derive from totally different Irish originals. The Meath comes from "An Uaimh" (Genitive "na hUamhan", Dative an Uamhain) while the Ulster form is from "(an) Eamhain (Mhacha).
Despite the fulminations of Mikey joe, I'd be inclined to accept the group's own opinion.
BTW, girls, keep up the music. Begrudgers are legion and not worth worrying about.
You have one fan in me, at any rate !!
Annraoi

duplicate message deleted by mudelf ;-)

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 09:50 PM

Go raibh maith agaibh, a Mhairtin agus Phillipa.

Risteard

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: GUEST,Navan
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 11:39 AM

Hello all,

I've been off mudcat for a while now but just found this renewed thread. First, Peg - I'd love to hear from you to know more about what you and your group are doing. There aren't many of us out here! You can contact me directly at [e-mail] if you like.

The Eamhain Mhacha Ulster connection wins the prize, although there's no reason to be begrudge a small town in Meath its pride in existence. We're also happy to be completely unofficially associated with the National Association of Vascular Access Networks (N.A.V.A.N.)!

The website, aside from small updates will be finding new life alongside the release of our second cd before the coming snow melts (always a concern for the Wisconsin-based). Thanks to all for your support in the past few years!

Elizabeth Navan ::: www.navan.org

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: GUEST,Síle
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 02:37 AM

Hey, can't let Elizabeth have all the fun!! (I imagine she's collapsed in bed after class so it's safe to needle her...)

Just got home from teaching the last Gaelic singing class of the season--what a thrilling ride! We sang "Liam Ó Raghallaigh" again tonight, Annraoi, and many thanks again for the lovely version you gave us. Go raibh míle, míle maith agat. I wish you could have been there to share in the fruits of your generosity--an entire room full of people singing their hearts out in Irish! We did record it, so maybe you'll get a chance after all.

Poor Navan Town...why does it get so much bashing? We're not named after it, but I'm about ready to launch a "Bolster Navan Town's Reputation" campaign.

I was imagining my reaction to an Irish band up and naming themselves "Mauston" (teeny Wisconsin town) and singing songs in a Mauston accent--no, wait, Maustonites use totally Irish sounds already ("Moychael, nohhhh! Dohhhn't yoooz da maanohh moyk!) (Michael, no! Don't use the mono mic!) Hmmmm...

Thank you for the kind words, everyone, musical wishes to all...caffeine levels dropping, must sleep...

Síle

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 07:21 AM

Whats wrong with Navan in the fanous County Meath and the home of the latest James Bond.

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From: GUEST,Mad Morrigan
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 09:15 AM

I don't think there is anything wrong with it. (Grumpy) Mikey joe seemed to be making a sort of tongue in cheek, off the cuff remark is all. A bit of good natured slagging is all, nothing serious. Or at least that is the way I perceived it.

I'm a mud duck based in the Twin Cities. You all appear to be cheese eaters from Madison? Doesn't Mauston now qualify as a suburb of Madison? ;-)

And BTW, it isn't just Mauston that has all sorts of odd Irish connections--you find wierdly Irish connections in these here parts of western Wisconsin too!

Do any of you ever come to the Twin Cities to teach and perform?

Subject: RE: Navan - Gaelic singing group
From:
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 05:58 PM

Good wishes, Peg. Hope to hear of you in the future. I'll have to get someone to tape it and send it to me, as it's likely to be quite a while before I get to Boston for another visit.

However, if your group does come up with a recording, let us know.