What is singing?

Subject: What is singing?
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 06:41 AM

What is it? Is it a combination of your larynx, the height of your palate, the way you breathe or all of these things. I wonder who first sang? and why? When I hear a singer - why can't I sound like that - impressionists manage it..... In my mind I can feel the emotion and hear the sound but it will not transfer out of my mouth - am I weird or what?
Patrish

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 07:57 AM

Don't forget that hearing yourself sing is much like looking at yourself in the mirror- what you perceive is not what others see/hear. The only way to learn to sing is to sing! As for who first sang, I've always believed that singing came before speech- listen to any baby in the cradle, practicing vocal sounds- don't they croon melodiously long before they imitate speech?

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: TerriM
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 08:06 AM

I sing bucause I just can't not...if that makes sense. Long before I ever got paid for it, I would sing all the time, happy or sad or even not thinking about it all, I sing. (makes me hell to live with.) My daughter doesn't sing because some clown somewhere told her she couldn't and it's true she doesn't hear the notes the same way I do but is a flawless, pitch-perfect reproduction of notes singing? I wish I could meet up with whoever did that to her and strangle them, they denied her the best emotional outlet going, aside from a huge cry or a lung-splitting scream,neither of which is nearly so socially acceptable. When we were in Jamaica last year I noticed just about everyone there sang, loudly, all the time and a more laid back and cheerful bunch of people I've seldom seen. O.k. maybe it wasn't just the singing but I bet it was a contributing factor.

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 08:10 AM

I know it sounds weird but singing also comes from the stomach.

As my singing teacher used to say, before I found folk and was singing classical.

You should use your diaprham (now behave) to help you get your breathing correct and breathe in using these muscles and not lifting your shoulders. It helps to keep your voice sounding nice if you can breathe properly too.

But most of all, you should be natural and relaxed when singing.

Practise breathing by keeping your hand flat resting on your stomach (above your bing (belly button) and breathe in using the big muscle there.

I don't like how I sound when I listen to recordings. But I get told I sounds nice when I sing at gigs,sessions etc. So far I have not had any negative comments.

I would recommend a few singing lessons, just to help you out and give you more confidence, just as long as you tell them what type of music you want to sing.

I found my singing lessons very useful, even if it was classical.

Did feel a bit daft standing there and spitting air through my teeth though, and going ko koo koo koo kooo koo karr koooo. But if anything this makes you laugh and enjoy the lesson more.

Ella

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: Sailor Dan
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 08:10 AM

Periodically, I sing in Church. But only when I want to get even with someone I dont like. Everytime I open my mouth, the next ten rows in front of me turn around with the most startling quizzical looks, as if to say, Who let that bellowing wart hog in here??? So I just shut my mouth and smile

DAn

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: Sailor Dan
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 08:12 AM

But to be totally honest, I wish I could carry a tune and sing. Sometimes I sing in the car with the radio and it is loads of fun and makes me smile. I also dont get any dirty looks, I keep the windows up,

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 08:45 AM

Excellent advice in Ella's posting; I think I can benefit from her suggestions. But I also agree completely with Terri. People should be encouraged to sing, whether or not the tones they produce fit someone else's model of what "proper" singing is supposed to sound like. Singing is good for the soul.

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 09:29 AM

I sing all the time in the car - sometines I forget and have the window down. And I sound ok to myself. My kids all sing in the house, adverts to mtv. My husband who could have been a professional singer(basso profundo)never sings......
I too think singing is good for the soul.
kindest regards
Patrish

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: Gervase
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 09:58 AM

Singing is nature's Prozac. Open you mouth and let rip, and you start sending endorphins running round your system and to raise your serotonin levels. So, even if you do sound like a warthog with laryngitis, it's good for you.

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: Bert
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 10:07 AM

I think that if you sing in the car then you can sing. Pay no attention to what anyone else says. If Louis Armstrong and Lee Marvin could get away with it ANYONE can!

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 10:08 AM

I believe, for no good reason, that the first human to sing was the first human mother. I bet that the first song was a lullaby. I think it evolved into something fun from being something adaptive; singing moms probably had quieter offspring, thus more likely to remain undetected by predators. Same as any other art - painting or the like - first you have the necessity, then once the ability evolves, it can be played with. However, I would bet that visual arts evolved from men needing to leave symbols like There Was A Saber-Toothed Tiger Here, while song evolved from hush little baby there's a tiger over there. Mother Nature, however, is very fair in a lot of ways, and it's very hard to evolve a trait in only one sex, so both got both abilities (see men having nipples as an example), and that is why I do not believe that women necessarily make better singers, or men better painters, nowadays. In fact, the singing ability of early woman may have evolved out of some vocal ability first selected by the needs of the hunting male to communicate with the rest of his "pack" (as we were social hunters, not solos). Maybe men invented humming, and women took that ability and turned it into singing, or something...

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: RichM
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 10:58 AM

Hey, why is this a "BS" thread? Mudcat IS singing!

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 11:09 AM

oooo oooo oooo

Mrr should go and put on his animal skin, pick up a club and go back to the cave.

Moms n babies, hunting. Men better painters, men and nipples. Hmmm. a bit dated

Very male domintated theory. Now not that I am a raging feminist, but I think Mrrr had better be careful, or his comments are going to spark a full blown slanging match.

lol

I agree that anyone can sing though - and that it is calming, relaxing and fun. And it doesn't matter what type of singing you do, shower, car, lullabys etc as long as you have fun.

But mrr should go back to the cave and keep quiet. If Mrr is a he, (I think so) then I hope he has an understanding partner. hem hem.

I was waiting for a womans place is in the home to follow all that lot. lol

Ella

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 11:17 AM

People who have forgotten who they are,and who everyone else is, still sing. Babies sing before they can talk. People who never learn how to talk sing."

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 11:18 AM

I rather assume that singing goes back further than speech. Human being may be the only people on the planet who talk, but there are plenty of other singers. Birds sing, whales sing, cats sing, apes sing - why, in spite of Bill Broonzy (or whoever) coming up with the famous wisecrack, horses sing too.

And when prehistoric mum was singing "Hush little baby there's a tiger over there", the tiger was singing "Here I come, here I come" in tiger.

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 11:27 AM

How do horses sing?
Patrish

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 11:35 AM

Because no-one said Neigh to them?
RtS (clearly suffering from Keyboard Tourettes Syndrome]

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: Alice
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 11:43 AM

Threads On The Singing Voice - click here For those who have not read them, this link will take you to the many discussions we have had on singing, as well as some sites off-Mudcat on the singing voice. I think singing is alot like howling. (Here those coyotes, yip, yip, yoooowwwww?) Humming is one of the easiest sounds to make.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: Escamillo
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 01:11 PM

I don't know how singing was originated first, but can guess how VOICE TECHNIQUE was originated. Our early ancestors really needed their voices for two main objectives: 1) communicate with others at reasonable distances before "encoded" drums were invented, and 2) threaten their enemies or animals.
In both cases, any member of the tribe who could shout loudly and impressively without destroying his/her throat in a few minutes, surely will earn a position and be considered important for the community. The first Pavarottis and Nillsons could have learned by themselves or teached by elder members, to use simple techniques that would allow them a better, louder and cleaner sound. Did you hear the war scream of primitive arab women (curiously women involved in war) like "wahlah wahlah wahlah.." ? It's not an open throat shouting, it is a kind of falsetto that resembles a soprano sound.
Probably those tribes were in a better position to survive than others, and thus have descendants like ourselves, while others disappeared. (We are all descendants of the winners, the most intelligent and cruel)
Probably another good use of an educated voice was the voice war in the market place, where you sell your merchandise as long as you make people hear your hawkers's cry.
As Alice says, see those threads and you´ll find a lot of fun and good advice and some other crazy theories from this pretending singer :)
Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: MMario
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 01:32 PM

Hawking is different from either singing, talking or shouting, but combines elements of all three. Try it for 8 to 12 hours...*grin*

seriously, a hawker's cry DOES combine elements of singing, shouting and talking. Breath control is important and so are pitch, volume and projection.

I have spent my summer weekends hawking for about 8 years now. When I am not hawking, I am probably doing a "patter" judging games. Oddly enough, the "patter" is more wearing on the voice.

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 03:29 PM

Ella, please go back and read my post a little more carefully, I must beg to differ with your interpretation. I do not say that men are better painters, or that women are better singers, in fact I state the contrary. I only said that men and women had different evolutionary pressures, which they did, as did any sex in any sexually dimorphic species. Otherwise the dimorphism would never have evolved. And men DO have nipples - nothing dated in that comment! There is ample paleoanthropological evidence that human society, back when the human species was speciating (which is what I was talking about), had divisions of labor by sex and age, as does any ape society (or birds, or anyone else). Nothing strange about that, either, is there?

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: SeanM
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 04:06 PM

I'll back you on the hawking, MMario... spent a few months doing that a few years ago, probably in much the same environment.

As a hawker in a Renaissance Faire environment, a lot of us ended up singing because it worked. It cuts through the surrounding chatter and background noise, and draws attention... much like a bird song, from what I understand.

Now THERE'S a thought! Unk the caveman perched atop a rock twittering to be heard over Og and Ug down the stream...

M

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 06:17 PM

Oh Man... lighten up abit Mrrr

I wasn't being serious (I hardly ever am) and thanks for the paleoanthology lesson, but I was just doing a bit of harmless winding up. Not as effective or understandable of course when it is typed.

I know all about devisions of labour etc and I know that there is nothing unusal in that. And those 4 years spent at university did come in handy to be able to learn just a little about the human race etc. (Especially on the Anthropology aspect of my course - grandma and sucking eggs?)lol

So, apologies if I rattled, but let me have my head back and lets just relax a while.

Ella ;-) PS Of course men have nipples - usually fairly attractive ones too. lol

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 07:58 PM

I thought I was pretty light, but you really seemed to have read me completely wrong, and YOU seemed offended, with nothing in your posting indicating otherwise. I wasn't offended, I just felt the need to set my record straight... so that you wouldn't stay peeved, as you certainly seemed to be.
No rattling before the invention of the rattle allowed, I guess...

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 08:09 PM

Chicago Street Cries"

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: tgreenie
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 11:56 PM

It's odd, but I sang for a living many years. Then I got married, had kids, and found other ways to make the needed "more money." Yet, my kids just can't stand it when I sing. They shout "shut up" until I do. Lots of people tell me they wish I still sang for a living, but wow, I don't know. . . my own kids . . .

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: Amergin
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 12:37 AM

Greeni, it most likely has nothing to do with your voice and talent, just that you "embarass" them. But you know if you went back to singing live, they would (secretly maybe) have their chests sticking out with pride. I say go for it!!

Amergin

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 04:30 AM

no Mrrr I am not offended, takes a lot to offend me.

So, c'est la vie never mind. Ferget about it all

Have a good one

Ella

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: Escamillo
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 06:03 AM

About children embarassment: I´ve experienced the same, for years. Probably the only way that this would not happen is when they grow up listening us singing, since they are babies. Once they reach 6 to 10 years, they will feel embarassed if their parents start to sing in public or even at home, no matter how good the singer is.
I started seriously this singing business when I was 46 and they were 18, 16 and 10. My sons used to flee out when I tried to practice a minute. The impression changed significantly when I convinced them to come to some concert, as soloist (classic and jazz/spirituals) or in the choir (classic). Seeing their father applauded by an audience was impressive for them, they accepted the idea, and at least never throw any negative opinion since then. However, they passed the embarassment to me: I do never practice at home. Let some psichologist explain this to me !

Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: TerriM
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 07:45 AM

Andres, I wonder if it's about one negative reaction, particularly from someone who's opinion really matters to you can last for a long time, even if it's subsquently altered? I know my daughter never really got over being told she couldn't sing, no matter how hard I try to encourage her.

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 10:42 AM

Ella, rereading, I apologize. I have now removed the large stick from my a**.

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 11:32 AM

ferget about it Mrrr

I thought that stick looked charming?

HEm hem.

Sounds painful -

by gones be bygones and all that.

Sits meditating crossed legged and watches the forum go by

Accepted by the way (and given)

Ella

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: Frank McGrath
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 01:26 PM

What is singing?
The kettle.

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 02:16 PM

That reminds me of something I had totally forgotten about - on a kids' record by Ed McCurdy he does a story of The Teakettle That Wanted To Sing Like People. It's just lovely, if nobody knows the story I can gloss it for you. The basic idea is that the teakettle COULD sing like people, but it had to boil really hard to do it, so it only gets the chance if its owner forgets to turn it off. Then it sings "several things from Rigoletto" among other songs. Lovely little story.

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: Escamillo
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 11:55 PM

TerriM, it is certainly true that getting over a negative opinion is very hard. But a teacher could be a great help, because he/she himself surely has experienced the same, and possibly many times. He will drive your daughter´s voice to the proper pitch and timbre, and her opinion on his own voice will be pretty different.
Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 08 Jun 00 - 04:53 AM

Terri I Agree with Andrés, I had singing lessons, and I found them hugely useful.

It gave me confidence, trained my voice, I know how to breathe (v.important) and can get the proper pitch. The lessons were fun, made me laugh at the excercises which do sound daft but really work.

And having an eccentric tutor was fun too, lots of strange ways of getting you to sing properly.

Ka koo ka koo ka kooo kaaaaaaah

I think that pretty much anyone can sing - everyone's style is different. And as I said before I actually don't like listening to myself when I have been recorded. As it sounds alien to me (is that really me?)

When I was in classical mode, my biggest debut and my biggest event I did was when I was 15 and I was the solo soprano singing with a Male voice choir. Which was for a 15 year old totally nerve wracking during the concert - but not only that because it went so well, my school asked me and the choir to perform the song during Assembly. Which was worse, in front of 600 of my classmates.

Singing with so many mens voices was an experiance.

But now I sing folk songs, which is fun and more loose and there are many diverse voices in that to be found, not all of them may be pitch perfect, or smooth and 'nice' but then that is all a part of the charm of that singing. (I think)

So Terri, try to encourage your daughter to sing, and one persons awful comments can be proved to be unfounded.

As my head master at my old school when I was 15 said to me after I had finished singing with the choir comments went.... I didn't know you could sing Ella!

Well there was alot he did not know about me - and it is a shame alot of people generalise and are far too quick to comment without thinking how their critising can affect a young person, and totally upset them for a long time.

Encourage your daughter with the singing, one persons comments are not law..

All the best

Ella

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 08 Jun 00 - 04:58 AM

Someone's already suggested the kazoo trick,works for me, I get bought drinks to shut me up but then I want to sing! Perhaps the sousaphone...?
RtS

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: ceitagh
Date: 08 Jun 00 - 01:40 PM

I must agree with Terri and others. Singing is therapeutic and should be encouraged regardless of natural ability. My Dad was told by his music teacher in highschool that he was tone deaf, and shouldn't sing. My Dad likes music, but for a long time he didn't sing 'cause of that. 'Bout when i was born he joined the church choir, and when i was a kid he was taking voice lessons and learning to stay on pitch, breath control, matching notes, etc...now he regularily cants at church and enjoys learning new songs with me to sing at the ceili. My Dad has been singing as long as i can remember, and has improved a lot.....but imagine if he'd let that teacher discourage him. Such a lot of voices are lost because of this idea that music is something that has to be professionally produced by people of a certain ability. There's the whole range of ability in my family....but we all sing, and have been known to break out spontaneously into song in responce to various things the way some families have in-jokes.

Ceitagh

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: Escamillo
Date: 08 Jun 00 - 02:45 PM

Sorry, my last message should read:
"and her opinion on **her** own voice will be pretty different."

Subject: RE: BS: What is singing?
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 08 Jun 00 - 02:52 PM

Mom and at least one of my sisters were told to please just mouth the words during singing at school. I wasn't told to mouth the words, but I was blamed for singing offkey, as if I were doing it on purpose. But we all still sing, loudly, anyway, so there.
And the comment about not liking one's recorded voice - I sound terribly Southern on tape, and I really don't (to me) in real life... but what's funny is my neighbor was videotaping my twins the other day, and during playback, one of them heard his own voice and asked Who is that talking my words? He remembered saying what he was hearing but didn't recognize his voice at all! It was really pretty funny.