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Subject: History of Benjamin Bowmaneer From: Jacky of Kent Date: 07 Jun 00 - 09:51 AM Hi all. Having recently bought the Red Rice album by Eliza Carthy, I've been learning Benjamin Bowmaneer (thanks to Mudcat for the lyrics) but I always try and learn a little bit about a song before I sing it. Can anyone tell me where the song comes from, who it is about etc.? |
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Subject: RE: History of Benjamin Bowmaneer From: KathWestra Date: 07 Jun 00 - 10:45 AM I don't have the notes here at the office, but it's also been recorded on Folk Legacy's "Joe Hickerson with a Gathering of Friends" LP(now available as a cassette C-39 in the F-L catalog) Joe leads the song with Ginny Dildine and Lynn Hickerson singing too. I called Joe to ask what he knew. He says he learned the song from the Penguin Book of English Folk Songs, which contains very little info. on its origins. Maybe somebody who has a Penguin Book handy can add whatever song notes there are to this thread. |
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Subject: RE: History of Benjamin Bowmaneer From: Stewie Date: 07 Jun 00 - 11:20 AM The note in the Penguin collection is:
Benjamin Bowmaneer (JEFDSS I 97) --Stewie. |
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Subject: RE: History of Benjamin Bowmaneer From: Jacky of Kent Date: 07 Jun 00 - 11:32 AM Thanks to both of you, much appreciated. |
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Subject: RE: History of Benjamin Bowmaneer From: harpgirl Date: 23 Feb 03 - 12:28 AM Kath, this song is actually on The New Golden Ring: "Five Days Singing- Vol I" and not Joe's album "Joe Hickerson: With a gathering of friends" |
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Subject: RE: History of Benjamin Bowmaneer From: Crane Driver Date: 23 Feb 03 - 03:10 PM As in a previous thread, I can confirm from Brewster's Dictionary of Phrase & Fable that a "castor" was a hat covered with beaver skin (think of a Dickensian stlye top hat - skin is more waterproof than felt, the other usual material) Also, "nine tailors make a man" may derive from the fact that, on the death of a man, the church bell rang nine "tells", (three sets of three), whereas if a woman died it was six tells (three twos). Thus "nine TELLERS make a man", later corrupted to "nine tailors". Maybe. Andrew |
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Subject: RE: History of Benjamin Bowmaneer From: IanC Date: 24 Feb 03 - 12:21 PM There's quite a bit of discussion of tailors in English folklore (and also other trades) in this thread. :-) |
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Subject: RE: History of Benjamin Bowmaneer From: GUEST,michele Date: 10 Mar 03 - 04:43 PM from the revival ( 70's ) this was sung by Suffolk singers eg John Goodluck ( Trunkles ) et al. I heard them a lot, since the practised in our house. I guess I always took this to be a song about sailing away to war..., like lots of shanties, it has that rhythym & seems to fit our local accent... but thats just a gut feeling withno justification in research. |
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Subject: RE: History of Benjamin Bowmaneer From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 10 Mar 03 - 04:55 PM it's on the new Colcannon cd 'Trad.', with notes, I'll post any that are interesting |
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Subject: History of Benjamin Bowmaneer From: Folkiedave Date: 11 Mar 03 - 02:25 PM Duncan McFarlane sang it last Thursday night on the Henry Ayrton Show, which is the folk music show for Radio Humberside, Sheffield, York and area. It was live as well and absolutely great. Dave |
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Subject: RE: History of Benjamin Bowmaneer From: HipflaskAndy Date: 19 Jan 04 - 05:38 AM Hello FolkieDave - sorry to be so tardy in adding a thought or two here - this thread being 'old' now. The fact is, I've just been trawling Mudcat for Benjamin Bowmaneer references, and found your comment re. my performance on the (sadly now axed) Henry Ayrton Show. I'm soooooo glad you enjoyed my live rendition of 'Ben Bow' - it's grand to have such feedback, even at this late juncture! You may be interested to hear I've just recorded the song with my folk-rock band and Alistair Hulett 'guests' on that track! Hopefully just a few weeks away from release now. Do get in touch - a 'search' of my name should find the website for you with an email address there. I (or we) may have a gig near you sometime - so you could have the opportunity to hear it live again if the mood strikes you! Thanks for the back-pat! Cheers! - Duncan McFarlane |
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Subject: Origins: Benjamin Bowmaneer From: GUEST Date: 01 May 04 - 10:08 PM Does anyone know the origin of the song "Benjamin Bowmaneer?" Is it based off of a historical event?
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Subject: RE: History of Benjamin Bowmaneer From: LadyJean Date: 01 May 04 - 11:04 PM In Dorothy L. Sayers' Book, "The Nine Tailors" the bell Tailor Paul is rung nine times when a man dies and 8 times when a woman dies. Hence 9 tailors make a man. If you don't know the mystery, you should. It's one of Sayers' best. |
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Subject: RE: History of Benjamin Bowmaneer From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 02 May 04 - 12:36 PM There is more information in the thread Benjamin Bowmaneer. The song belongs to a family of stories about tailors' misadventures. It has notable features in common with a more widespread song, The Tailor and the Louse, which is ultimately of broadside origin (mid 17th century). It may be an adaptation of that song, or an independent piece; we don't really know. Similar conceits turn up in a number of other, unrelated songs, and it's very unlikely that there's any historical event behind it. |
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Subject: RE: History of Benjamin Bowmaneer From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 May 04 - 04:53 PM What gives the song it's power is that first couplet - "Have you heard how the wars began... When England fought to a man" And the refrain "Castors away" almost subliminally suggest we are all being cast away, shipwrecked. I'm not suggesting that's where it starts out from - but songs can often take on a colour and a meaning which wasn't there to start with. |
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Subject: RE: History of Benjamin Bowmaneer From: GUEST,Nat Case Date: 25 Feb 12 - 11:47 AM First heard this song as the opening of the Christmas in the Trenches section of the PBS holiday special Siimple Gifts. I think it was sung by David Jones. |
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Subject: RE: History of Benjamin Bowmaneer From: GUEST,Nat Case Date: 25 Feb 12 - 12:06 PM per my last post, here's the segment in question: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBxxZHxuMnc |
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Subject: RE: History of Benjamin Bowmaneer From: EBarnacle Date: 25 Feb 12 - 12:56 PM Consider the possibility that "castors away" may be an appeal to patriotism--either as "Throw your hat in the air" or as "Get rid of your fancy clothing and enlist to serve your country." |
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Subject: RE: History of Benjamin Bowmaneer From: Steve Gardham Date: 30 Jun 20 - 06:28 AM In the 1870s there were at least 3 versions contributed to Notes & Queries and these appear to be the earliest appearances of this little nonsense song. No hidden meanings I'm afraid, just the common swipe at the emascualted tailor. The contributors also offer versions of other similar but unrelated tailor ditties such as The Tailor and the Louse, which has 17th century versions. His surname in these versions BTW is variously Birmingham, Bowman and Bobbletail. The 'nine tailors make a man' is a very old saying, and the obvious meaning is very likely the original. Any reference to bells, if relevant at all, is likely a later accretion. |
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Subject: RE: History of Benjamin Bowmaneer From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Date: 30 Jun 20 - 10:33 AM I learned this in primary school from "Singing Together" and when we stared doing it as the trio I was wondering if Nick, who does a lot of research on everything that he does, had the same version, which he did; exactly to the word. We also learned "The Watchet Sailor", appropriate as we were in Watchet. This song is also derogatory to tailors in the last verse as the intended bridegroom, displaced by the Watchet sailor, is refered to as a tailor. I was given the impression that the intent of the word tailor was to do with his manliness, not whatever his profession was. There is no other discription of him in the song. Robin |
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Subject: RE: History of Benjamin Bowmaneer From: ripov Date: 30 Jun 20 - 08:18 PM "casters"appear to be a subset of shipwrights who were forming unionsand causing trouble for employers Anno 33° Geo. III. A.D. 1793. CHAP. LXVII. An Act for better preventing Offences in obstructing, destroying, or damaging Ships or other Vessels, and in obstructing Seamen, Keelmen, Casters, and Ship Carpenters, from pursuing their lawful Occupations. [17th June 1798.] g WHEREAs many Seamen, Keelmen, Casters, and Ship Carpenters, have of late assembled themselves in great e Numbers, and have committed many Acts of Violence; which Practices, if continued, may occasion 'great Loss and Damage to Individuals, and injure the Trade and Navigation of this Kingdom: |
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Subject: RE: History of Benjamin Bowmaneer From: GUEST,EileenR Date: 03 Jul 20 - 06:37 AM The casters referred to here in connection with Keelmen were the men who worked on keelboats on the Tyne and Wear who shovelled the coal from the keelboat into the collier ships. Keels carried coal down river and then the coal was cast into the waiting ship through rectangular open ports cut into the collier's topside planking. |
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Subject: RE: History of Benjamin Bowmaneer From: GUEST,Julia L Date: 04 Jul 20 - 07:08 PM I had always heard that the castors referred to hats , and we have here a definition from the free dictionary https://www.thefreedictionary.com/castor cas·tor 1 (kas't?r) n. 1. An oily, brown, odorous substance obtained from glands in the groin of the beaver and used as a perfume fixative. Also called castoreum. 2. A hat made of beaver fur or an imitation. 3. A heavy wool fabric used especially for overcoats. |
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Subject: RE: History of Benjamin Bowmaneer From: Steve Gardham Date: 05 Jul 20 - 09:10 AM Okay, enough castors please! Some interesting ideas, all pausible, but in 2 of the earliest versions from 1870/71 we have the equivalent lines: 'Cast threads away' 'Cast knots away' Er, the song is about a tailor, or perhaps that's a corruption! |
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Subject: RE: History of Benjamin Bowmaneer From: Mrrzy Date: 05 Jul 20 - 09:18 AM Castor is French for beaver [animal]... 7 at one blow was about a tailor, too. |
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Subject: RE: History of Benjamin Bowmaneer From: EBarnacle Date: 05 Jul 20 - 01:12 PM Aah, but that tailor was bold and smart enough to take advantage of people's misconstruals and marry the princess. |
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