The Ould Triangle

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle
From: GUEST,Tom Neary
Date: 29 Jul 12 - 05:56 PM

Further to my last, Dickie's son Mickser was given the fare to England because the authorities were about to try and lock him up in the Artane boys home Not for anything criminal, but because they had decided to put him in care, which is what they did in those days for no other reason than the church dictated it so. But I digress, because I was speaking to my mam today, and she informed me of what the Auld Triangle actually was. It was in fact the sound made by the warning triangle on one of the working boats that used to deliver to the warehouses near the prison, as an alert to the lock keeper of an incoming delivery. They would deliver at six in the morning and six in the evening, so the men would use it as a type of clock. It was the regular method of telling the time inside the Walls of "The Joy". And more importantly, was a direct link with the normality of the outside world. It was also interesting to find out that Dickie and Brendan first met as kids, and remained friends up until Brendans death. Dickie worked as a labourer for Brendans dad, when he was a painter and decorator. So in one way or another they were always together. An example of their friendship, was highlighted when Dickie's daughter Annie drowned in the Liffey. Brendan was at the funeral and sang a lament for her and the family. A small act of friendship, but something grandad never forgot. On a happier note, Brendan turned up at the Rotunda when Dickie's wife Mary gave birth to the twins my aunt Lilly and uncle Dickyboy. Of course the porter flowed very freely as they wet the babies heads (LOL). Mam became quite animated as she pointed out that many of the great Irish writers had been forced out of Dublin, because they had the temerity to write about the place in all it's raw degradation. Brendan was a man the authorities could never have kowed or forced out because Dublin was his city plain and simple, and they knew it! It is probably this factor that explains why it took so long for a statue to be erected in his honour? Perhaps Dublin's elite were ashamed of him and his so called infamy, but the common people were proud of him and his achievements, which to Brendan's mind would have been all that mattered. Hopefully the above has cleared up one or two queries about the song and it's content.

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 02:09 PM

As promised earlier...Dickie and Brendans escapades in Liverpool in 1958 came about because Brendan had yet another meeting in London with the BBC people. According to both mam and uncle Mickser, Dickie said that Brendan had promised them his latest work, provided they subbed him most of the commission due. When they landed they got waylaid by a toss school near the docks in Liverpool, where Dickie won a decent few bob. Unfortunately for them, the police broke up the school and chased them like something from a keystone cops movie. Dickie said "that Brendan could move very quickly for a little fat fella when he needed to". This event meant they missed the connecting train to London. The pair had obviously worked up a thirst, which resulted in a heavy drinking session that night to recover, after which they dossed down at Lime street until the morning. When they eventually caught the train to London the next day, Brendan was trying to think of decent reasons to explain his lateness. He couldn't, so told the executive the truth about what had happened. The BBC man knowing both Brendan and his reputation accepted it with good grace, and the deal was done. However, rather than give him cash for his pains, he told Brendan that any monies would be paid through a solicitor back in Dublin. This news was greeted with much dismay by Brendan, who started effing and jeffing at this poor man about being dragged all this way for nothing. Brendan told Dickie that the man simply smiled at him across his desk, and explained that it was a new way of paying their writers, but that he would ensure that Brendan was paid something from petty cash to make up for it. Brendan left with a "queer few quid" as Dickie put it, and off they went to Cricklewood for a weekend on the lash. Once they got back to Dublin, Brendan was to visit the solicitor, who would pay him his stipend provided he proved he had been writing what he had promised. This really irked Brendan and he would have murders with the solicitor over his money. I don't know what the solicitors name was, but he was Jewish, and Brendan often referred to him as a "two inches over a jam pot scutty little snake". As for the work in question, i can't confirm if it was ever completed, but believe that it may have been something to do with "The Hostage"? I'm sure there is more to this tale, but if there was, Dickie never elaborated. If i find out any more, i shall let you know...

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle
From: meself
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 09:18 PM

This is great stuff, Tom; keep it coming - please!

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 02:02 PM

It may be of some some interest to a few of you, that Brendan was not very close to his immediate family, for what reason i don't know? But the one person he really loved and relied on was his grandmother. It was her that he would run to when things got bad. According to Dickie, she was, and always had been the one solid thing in his life, and the only member of his family to accept him for what he was. He may very well have been a flawed genius to everyone else, but she knew his ilk having lived in those same surroundings he now inhabited. She herself had lived in dire poverty for most of her own life. As a consequence she knew exactly what he was going through, and how to handle him. Brendan's wife on the other hand was not cut from the same cloth, and found his lifestyle to be a terrible strain. He would often invite complete strangers back to his home without telling her, and she would return home to find the place in total uproar. Her response was to have a blazing row and boot everyone one of them out, including Brendan! He would then dissappear for anything up to a week, before coming home again...A not too uncommon event in Dublin life according to my mam.

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle
From: GUEST,Tom Neary
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 04:03 PM

Visited my great aunt Tessie on Monday and she is the only surviving sibling of Dickie. She related a tale of Dickie and Brendan when they were together in New York. Sadly it involved copious amounts of Porter and the law, in that they were both arrested for drunk and disorderly and locked up for the night in one police precincts. The following morning they appeared in court to answer the charges, but they failed to impress the judge who doled out a heavy fine for their troubles. Brendan was so outraged by this miscarriage of justice, that when asked if he had anything to say, he told the judge the tale of St Patrick removing all the Snakes from Ireland. The judge asked what the significance of his tale was to his case... None whatsoever says Brendan, other than all the snakes must have made their way to New York and become Judges!! The judge threatened to have them deported after locking them up for a spell. Dickie said he felt like giving Brendan a dig for almost getting them locked up. He told him It's good to be smart, but not clever to be a smartarse...Anyway they got home in one piece. Unfortunately she could not remember why they were there, but did say that it was sometime in the late 40s or early 50s. Should I find out more I'll let you know.

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle
From: Abby Sale
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 12:44 PM

Tom, et al,

Very, very interesting additional info on the song and the people. Thanks for all the detail - makes them come alive.

I agree it's not the world's most important thing but I've just been curious how Brendan himself would have opted to pronounce it for the play. That's why I tried to get a copy or at least have someone listen to, that lost tape from the show. I expected it to have a criminal-speak feeling but the book was standard spelling.

As many Irish, he had easy and plausible access to several accents. He could legitimately speak Street, Prison, "Standard" or "Educated" Irish. The only record I have of him uses a distinctly Irish but what I take to be middle-class Dublin accent. (I don't claim expertise.) In the play, the singer is a prisoner so might use Prison accent. In the book (mine, anyway) the spelling is nearly all standard English. A bit of Poetics (o'er) and droppin' a few final G's.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Brendon (or his publisher) opted to spell formally for print but sing more comfortably or more in character in the play. (And sing it some other way if he ever made a commercial recording.)

I never heard of Dicky Shannon before but I think I'd much like to have had a pint with him. I _will_ credit him when I sing the song but then I think I may have discredit Brendon, Dominic and Kathleen. Or the people who reported/wrote about them. Who knows?

Is there any written evidence Brendon credited him?

As to copyright, I think I can give something amusing about the US, if not Ireland. As I understand, in the US, copyright goes to the first person to "publish" the piece and the date it was published. Registration makes it easier to claim and find publicly but anyone can register anything. Eventually it's the court that determines who gets the money.

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle
From: GUEST,kayleigh
Date: 31 Mar 23 - 10:54 AM

This is incorrect as Behan did not write the song. In fact, my great-grandfather dicky Shannon did.

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 23 - 11:00 AM

Actually dicky did get paid. Brendan behan also paid mick. i know this as dicky shannon is also my great grandfather and uncle mick is my great uncle

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle
From: meself
Date: 31 Mar 23 - 07:46 PM

Are these "GUEST"s one person or more, and what relation are they to "GUEST,Tom Neary"?