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What is a Folk Song?

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Steve Gardham 27 Mar 19 - 05:47 PM
GUEST 27 Mar 19 - 08:18 AM
GUEST,Kenny B 27 Mar 19 - 07:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Mar 19 - 05:27 AM
Stilly River Sage 26 Mar 19 - 06:36 PM
Steve Gardham 26 Mar 19 - 06:35 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Mar 19 - 03:02 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Mar 19 - 02:50 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Mar 19 - 02:44 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Mar 19 - 02:26 PM
Stringsinger 26 Mar 19 - 01:19 PM
The Sandman 26 Mar 19 - 09:53 AM
Richard Mellish 26 Mar 19 - 06:46 AM
The Sandman 26 Mar 19 - 05:30 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Mar 19 - 05:21 AM
GUEST,Some bloke 25 Mar 19 - 06:01 PM
GUEST 25 Mar 19 - 03:41 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Mar 19 - 10:35 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 19 - 03:27 AM
punkfolkrocker 24 Mar 19 - 07:00 PM
Steve Gardham 24 Mar 19 - 06:04 PM
GUEST,Some bloke 24 Mar 19 - 04:30 PM
Andy7 24 Mar 19 - 04:25 PM
Steve Gardham 24 Mar 19 - 04:00 PM
GUEST,Some bloke 24 Mar 19 - 03:57 PM
Iains 24 Mar 19 - 03:32 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Mar 19 - 03:25 PM
Iains 24 Mar 19 - 03:24 PM
Steve Gardham 24 Mar 19 - 03:00 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Mar 19 - 02:49 PM
Iains 24 Mar 19 - 02:06 PM
GUEST,Some bloke 24 Mar 19 - 01:32 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Mar 19 - 11:15 AM
GUEST,Some bloke 24 Mar 19 - 10:58 AM
The Sandman 24 Mar 19 - 10:19 AM
punkfolkrocker 24 Mar 19 - 10:13 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Mar 19 - 09:33 AM
GUEST,Some bloke 24 Mar 19 - 09:27 AM
Steve Gardham 24 Mar 19 - 09:26 AM
The Sandman 24 Mar 19 - 03:06 AM
GUEST,Some bloke 23 Mar 19 - 09:31 PM
The Sandman 23 Mar 19 - 05:51 PM
GUEST,Some bloke 23 Mar 19 - 04:03 PM
The Sandman 23 Mar 19 - 03:56 PM
GUEST,Some bloke 23 Mar 19 - 03:41 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 23 Mar 19 - 02:32 PM
Jack Campin 23 Mar 19 - 02:00 PM
GUEST,Some bloke 23 Mar 19 - 01:19 PM
Jack Campin 23 Mar 19 - 09:58 AM
punkfolkrocker 22 Mar 19 - 08:14 PM
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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 05:47 PM

Can't argue with any of that, Steven. Well said.


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 08:18 AM

Incidently I got this on my facebook today and thought it perfectly time for posting by a member who no rarely gets involved in discussion here.

Note: This is longish, but the TLDR version is: you guys are great.
(posted in the music page - but wanted to share here too)
Being a folky is not a mass-market thing, it’s alternative, it’s off-the-beaten-track, not mainstream. If you’ve taken the folky path, and been inclined that way for a while, you know that it has waxed and waned in popularity, but you know fine that you didn’t get into it because everybody else was into it. In fact, there’s a chance maybe you got into it precisely because other people weren’t. Let’s face it, you may be the kind of person who chooses really bitter dark chocolate, or loves liver with onions – the things that other people give a great big bodyswerve.
And it’s not like it’s an easy or obvious category of music to define. It’s almost impossible to say what “folk music” is, and I have no intention of attempting it (so you can stow away the “never heard a horse sing” quote) – but that’s equally true of almost every other genre of music – each label is loosely applied to a continuum, and the edges are very blurry indeed. I’ve given up trying.
So, having wandered, or plunged headlong along the folky road to Kingdom Come or Fiddler’s Green, and been reconciled to the fact (and perhaps slightly pleased) that it’s not every one else’s cup of tea, it can come as a surprise that you’ve found lots of other people who like what you like. Or at least, they like some of the stuff you like, and other stuff that you hadn’t known about. And when they share that stuff with you, you find that you like some of that stuff too. Then you find some other people, who like the music that you have just discovered -and they seem to like some of the music that you love. And it’s like ripples in a pond (thank you, Ozark Mountain Daredevils) and the ripples overlap, and make new patterns.
So then you find yourself looking for new songs to bring to your folky friends – because that’s what you have found: friends. And they do the same, the circle spreading outwards over time, making more connections and sharing songs. A community of friends, who encourage and support each other, and do the music thing because it’s what brings us a shared enjoyment, a community. The community of tunes, songs, singing and listening. That’s my community.
So, I want to thank my family and my community of friends, and friends of friends, for your support, for the gift of the songs you have given me, and for accepting slightly wonky-looking bouquets of songs I have offered you in return. Thank you for coming along to sing with me, and making an unfamiliar room instantly warmer by your presence. You guys are great.
Thanks
Steven


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,Kenny B
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 07:54 AM

DTG if that is the Best Folk Song ever surely? this will be voted second

A Folk song - Peter Sellers


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 05:27 AM

Best folk songs ever


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 06:36 PM

Jim's post (he tried posting it in two other threads after the original battle ground was closed) is deleted. Again. Don't conduct a running battle through threads. PFR has it right - and the mods weren't bored. They were annoyed at the mess you made. Take the arguments, even about music, down to the BS section. And there's no guarantee it will stay open down there either.


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 06:35 PM

Definitely a problem and not just down to one thread.


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 03:02 PM

Jim - I spent ages opening that thread out of curioslty..
and a mod gives a sensible tech reason for closing it.

its a bleedin nightmare getting into slow old mudcat today...


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 02:50 PM

I xpect to be able to discuss a subject as long as people continued to be interested - I know some who didn't participate were and, as far as I know, there were no personal insults
Maybe the Mods got bored
Jim
The thread that was closed was "UK 60s Folk Club Boom?" and Jim's last undeleted post was about the current EFDSS. The *subject* had apparently run it's course. Mudcat does not have unlimited resources, and when you change the subject of a thread so you can keep arguing, it might get deleted. -Mod


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 02:44 PM

Jim - bloody hell.. 1167 posts.. what d'ya expect...!!!??

Who would ever find time and determination to start reading it from scratch...?????

There should be a thread post limit implemented,
to stop them disapearing up their own black holes;
and no longer serving any useful function for future readers...


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 02:26 PM

When i hear a performance I instantly instinctively know what is a folk song,
and I also know what isn't..

But it's all the rest of the millions of songs in the vast expanse 'grey area' middle ground
that cause such confusion and dispute...

Hold on.. wait a mo.. none of that's 'grey' at all...
But in fact, a living vibrant rainbow of colours and light and shade.....

Even the most crap songs display paler tints and hues in the right light...

So.. it's actually the two extremes that are stark black and white from a narrow folkie perspective...


Today's colour is sky blue... [i asked an infant school teacher.. so argue with her...]


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 01:19 PM

It's interesting that this question produces so much animosity as if to say that
if you sing a folk song, you have to defend your position as to this discussion.

I would like to hear an honest opinion of what a folk song is rather than a travel down a rabbit hole of "clever" discourse.

I assume that people on this thread have had an intimate acquaintance with what we call "folk song" and would like to hear an intelligent analysis based on your experience.

I think the question is legitimate particularly if you want to share the beauty of this
expression with those less familiar with it.


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 09:53 AM

Richard, a troll in internet terminology is someone who flames situations , it is description of someones behaviour, it is not an insult
    The mere mention of the word "troll," is often enough to turn a thread into a battleground. Yes, it is an insult. Please remove it from your vocabulary. Thank you.
    -Joe Offer-

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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 06:46 AM

Some of these threads put me in mind of a line in a Groucho Marx song: "Whatever it is, I'm against it".

All that personal insults achieve is to demean the person writing them.

Meanwhile, as an answer to the question that forms the title of this thread, I submit "Opinions differ".


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 05:30 AM

the term finger in the ear is piss taking, the correct term is finger on the ear.
When covering one ear you can hear your voice a lot better during a performance.
some bloke.you are a troll


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 05:21 AM

"The term “finger in your ear” isn’t insulting and is widely used by fine singers. " yes it is, and its usually used in conjunction with "folk police" and "purist"
"Nasty little men" are those who used terms like "nasty little man"
I've done no more than describe your behaviour
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 06:01 PM

The term “finger in your ear” isn’t insulting and is widely used by fine singers.

Don’t let the nasty little man upset you.......


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 03:41 PM

Some say good old Benny


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 10:35 AM

Jim - Stick your finger in your ear singalong chorus...


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 03:27 AM

"putting a finger in their ear"
Cupping the hand over the ear to assist a singer hold the tune is one of the oldest singing techniques on record - muzzins singing from thee top of mosques still use it traditionally
It has been reduced to 'finger-in-ear' as an insult against those who take the act of singing seriously - usually by those who can't hold a tune themselves
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 07:00 PM

Was it the first series of Star Trek we heard examples of alien folk songs...???


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:04 PM

Andy, I think that's probably aliens disguised as folksingers. There's got to be a song in there somewhere.


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:30 PM

I’d be grateful it’s their finger.....


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Andy7
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:25 PM

I have no objection whatsoever to traditional singers putting a finger in their ear while they perform.

It's only when they put their finger in my ear that I start to feel a little uncomfortable.


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:00 PM

Fred always wore his gaiters.


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 03:57 PM

String????

You and your twenty first century problems.


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 03:32 PM

The idea of playful ferrets trapped thus takes adventurism to undreamed of heights.


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 03:25 PM

..and to keep playful ferrets in...


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 03:24 PM

worn with bowyangs below the knee to keep out adventurous rats.


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 03:00 PM

>>>>>>If thou wears thy trousers up to thy tits thou shalt scratch the back of thy divine instrument with thy belt<<<<<

Gross inaccuracy warning....all tit-trousermen tied them up with string, so no belts or buckles.


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 02:49 PM

Iains- But speak cautiously of such things...
For it is those of us accepting into our hearts
the true power and light of electricity,
who the old disbelieving acoustic order brand and shun as heretics...


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 02:06 PM

But Osram illuminated the true path and could also shake the walls of Jericho.


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 01:32 PM

Blessed be the guitarists and their calloused finger tips.

For it is they who can touch a Mullard and not be scarred for life.

Beware brethren though! If thou wears thy trousers up to thy tits thou shalt scratch the back of thy divine instrument with thy belt. Best leave such fancy dress to the unbelievers.


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 11:15 AM

Once upon a time, not too far from Glastonbury,
I actually saw a sacred Mullard valve.. and touched it with the tip of my finger...
I was blessed by the glowing holy relic...

I gave my soul to'folk'rock...
and follow the true path to this day......


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 10:58 AM

I do appear to have one problem. You and Jim have a fascination in dismissing anything serious I say. So far better to laugh at your absurdity. Anyway Dick, you are the same age as my sister and she doesn’t wear trousers up to her tits.

Watch him Dick! He has a problem with old people as well! Tsk. Mind you, guilty as charged. Although maybe restricted to one particular coffin dodger.

Talking of music to accompany a raffle. First prize, a ticket to a Dick Miles gig. Second prize, two tickets to ....

Lighten up for Clapton’s sake.

PFR. Your description only works if they are Mullard valves.


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 10:19 AM

some bloke , do you have a personality disorder?you seem obseesesd with clothes appearnces are you a tit troser fetish?


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 10:13 AM

Any guitar amplifiers with valves - not transistors - are folk amplifiers...


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 09:33 AM

Hope you aren't old enough to wear "tit-trousers" Dick; he doesn't have a great respect for old people
Jim


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 09:27 AM

Tell you what Dick, you come up with a definition.

Then kindly keep it to yourself.


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 09:26 AM

Lighten up, Dick. He's pulling your leg!


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 03:06 AM

Three more months and I reckon the joke becomes traditional.)
very weak, almost as silly as the person i knew once who said anything written befor 1900 is tradtional anything after is not


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 09:31 PM

I’ll just have to unpoor my argument then.

(Has he gone yet? I like the one about a raffle, I’ve been using it for years. Three more months and I reckon the joke becomes traditional.)

Tsk


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 05:51 PM

Some bloke, your attempts at diverting the subject illustrate the poorness of your argument, music to accompany a raffle is a very poor description of folk music


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 04:03 PM

Nurse! He’s out of bed again!!


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 03:56 PM

The most accurate “what is a folk song” I have come across is “music to accompany a raffle.”
what a silly comment, so e could have a raffle at a jazz club and the band were playing jazz ,or we were at a country and irish club and the band were playing during a raffle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q620yFTd72w you r comments are incorrect, silly bi;ly. some bloke


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 03:41 PM

Correct Jack. And if you read my posts in this thread you will see you are echoing what I said. It’s using their work to pigeonhole a genre by latterday jobsworths that I have little tolerance for.

The work at the time is of academic interest (although I’m sure they wished it to be empirical) but contrary to the assertions of many here neither define nor influence the label “folk” as it is nebulous to say the least.

The most accurate “what is a folk song” I have come across is “music to accompany a raffle.”


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 02:32 PM

All together now: Product - package - consumer.

It's whatever they say it is. One at a time and all together.

I'm from the Caribbean. When Stringsinger covers Choucoune as "folk" it becomes folk to Yank consumers. That's fine.

But it's still a full Euro-style lounge orchestra vedette tune. Celia Cruz and Harry Belafonte are fine with us "down south." Kathlene Dunham &c are "folk art."

Frankly, I hear always little Walter Raim in the "folk song." Don't ask me why.

It's all good.


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 02:00 PM

The Council had no idea that British folk clubs would ever exist and had zero interest in regulating the activities of performers of any kind anywhere. So the paranoia about them is just stupid, up there with thinking the EU insists on straight bananas. Look at that table of contents.


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 01:19 PM

Yeah, using stereotypes to mock something set up to stereotype may be slightly over Dick and Jack’s head but not much point in dumbing down, Mudcat isn’t just aimed at them.

Judging by Dick’s little tizzy fit above, presumably my posts do people the courtesy of ensuring my spelling and grammar is acceptable before publishing them. Or perhaps his waistband has crept up to his eyes? It gets to us all eventually.

I sing folk songs Dick. Something calling itself The Folk Council isn’t and never has been relevant to what I do. Any more than The Punk Parliament, Baroque Bureaucracy Salsa Select Committee, classical conference, grunge group, reggae report or blues booze up. The works of Child, Sharp, Vaughan Williams etc were available for all well before the need to inflict neat bundles on an evolving musical process.

PFR. The origins of the traditional ditty Bearded Lady could yield clues here....


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 09:58 AM

I just looked what the International Folk Music Council was up to in 1954. Their guidelines weren't published that year, but the contents page of their journal shows what they were interested in. You don't hear a lot of this in British folk clubs, do you? (Probably every single one of the ethnic groups covered has an immigrant community in some British city, so you have to ask why not).

Journal index page, volume 6, 1954


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Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 08:14 PM

"Maud Karpeles was a woman and did not have a beard"

so sure..???

.. ever seen all the products in a woman's bathroom cabinet...???


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