English Tradition, part two

Subject: English Tradition, part two
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Jun 00 - 09:32 PM

"What is it with the English" has reached a point where it's too big a thread to maintain sensibly.  We could probably also do without the silly wind-up stuff.  May we continue the discussion here?

Malcolm

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Terry K
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 01:53 AM

I've gone right through the parent of this thread and there's an awful lot about Morris Dancing - but nobody has mentioned the anti-Semitism that is so blatantly exercised by the Morris Dancing authorities.

I think it's disgraceful!!!

Terry

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 04:28 AM

Thank you Malcolm. This is a link to the original thread What is it with the English.

Can you explain a little more about Morris and Anti-semitism?

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Snuffy
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 09:14 AM

You have to be a complete prick to be a Morris Dancer!

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 08:22 PM

Well, maybe they ain't anti-semitic, but some of them are over-the-top when it comes to keeping women out of it. I'm not taking about the heated question of whether there should be single-sex dance-teams - that seems as reasonable with Morris dancing as it does with cricket and football and hurling.

But when you get a Morris side who won't allow females on the same bus as them, as happened recently with one local side near us recently - that's what I mean by over-the-top. I wonder - do they have Morris dancing on Mount Athos?

That's maybe trhread drift. But there's a relevance to it. In the Engish tradition", there is ritual dancing (Morris and other sorts), and there is barn-dance type social dancing, and there is individual clog dancing occasionally - but there seems to be no equivalent of the Irish sett dance, the sort you can get in the corner of a pub, in a lively session. Or if it exists it's existence kept very quiet.

So far as I can see, there are plenty of dances, both in the barn dance and in the Morris dance traditions, which are perfectly well suited to be English set-dances. I think that this gap is a major factor in holding back the ability of Engish traditional music to broaden its appeal, and to be able to feed into the new multicultutal traditions that are developing.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 00 - 12:38 AM

OK, somebody: Please take the time to define or describe Morris dancing? (I'm probably the only Mudcatter who has no idea of it. But that's one!)

I tried to look it up but mostly what I found was websites for it and a lot of tunes that are evidently traditionally played in it. I gather that many of the tunes are jigs? I know some of the tunes, such as Haste to the Wedding and The Rose Tree but most of them are new to me.

So is Morris dancing a style rather than typified by the tunes?

If someone will give me a quick summary, I will appreciate it.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Jun 00 - 03:30 AM

It's a type of dancing, like Salsa, or Flamenco. A group of people (male or female, it doesn't matter a hoot which) do particular 'set' dances. That's where 6 or 8 people dance to and with each other. It's a bit like country dancing or barn dancing, but with fewer people.

The steps are not particular to morris, nor are the tunes, but the costume is. It's usually black or white trousers, white shirt and a waistcoat (vest) but can be anything you like. It is customary to have bells somewhere. For convenience these are on a bell pad, a pad of leather, not unlike a cat flap, that ties to the leg, just below the knee. Sticks can be used to emphasise beats or rythmns in the tune by knocking them together, big sticks like hickory pick handles (as used by most morris teams), little sticks or tiny sticks with bells on, doesn't matter except to the 'tradition' of the style of dance you are doing. In barn dancing these stick knocks are replaced by hand clapping.

To be a morris dancer you have to accept that you will have the urine extracted from you at great length, and not least by your supposed nearest and dearest!

And don't even get me on the baldricks!!

LTS - morris/sword dancer widow........ every other weekend between now and September!

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 11 Jun 00 - 08:52 AM

There is a useful general introduction to the Morris at  The Morris Ring.  We do tend to forget that not everybody knows what it is!  Not being personally involved with it, I'm not aware of any current anti-semitic issues, though if I remember correctly there was an attempt by Fascists to infiltrate the Morris Ring in the 1930s.  It would be interesting if Terry K could give us some details.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Penny S.
Date: 11 Jun 00 - 10:46 AM

There was a side performed here whose hats were decorated with badges saying "knockers to women's morris".

It did strike me when I got involved in a discussion (mild word) on the subject that the inability to explain why, and the strength with which the tradition was defended was very like the CofE attitude to women priests. There's something very deep and difficult there. Not just tradition (I'm listening to Fiddler on the Roof now). The morris reaction actually coloured my feelings about the church arguments.

Penny

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Llanfair
Date: 11 Jun 00 - 01:18 PM

What has been described so far is Cotswold Morris, and it, and it's derivatives are the type usually seen and made fun of!
No-one takes the mickey of the Shropshire Bedlams, they are much too scary! They black up and wear top hats and motley, and shout a lot. Hwyl, Bron.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 11 Jun 00 - 01:49 PM

Sorry if this is thread drift (though this thread has already drifted into being just about Morris dancing)

Anyway, my question is: why do some Morris Teams blacken their faces?

I've heard various answers; from it being a way for farmworkers to disguise themselves so that their land owners wouldn't recognise them, to various obscure pagan rituals.

Can anyone enlighten me?

Ed

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 00 - 02:26 PM

Thanks for the info, everybody. In looking at the pictures on the Morris blicky, the word 'caper' does come to mind! I had heard of mummers, of course, but not of Morris dances. It occurrs to me to wonder if the UK or Europe, for that matter, has clogging, as we in the US have? But that is fodder for another thread. Thanks again.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Penny S.
Date: 11 Jun 00 - 03:11 PM

Oh, and Kevin, I was pretty sure dear Hermione was a rag. Too much of a sense of humour, you know. I just decided to play it deadpan.

Penny

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 11 Jun 00 - 03:51 PM

Ebbie: Of course we have clog-dancing!  Where did you think it came from?  Here is a brief article:  History of Clogs & Clog Dancing in Great Britain (Especially around Hyndburn East Lancashire).

Malcolm

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jun 00 - 05:40 PM

As Penny pointed out, Morris Dancing is essentially set dancing. (Oh yes, there are other types of ritual dances around that get generically referred to as Morris, buit aren't really).

So is social English set dancing, in a non-ritual, and non-barn dance context, catching on anywhere? I'd be surprised in a way if it isn't, given the explosion of set-dancing in Ireland, and in the context of Irish dancing. But I've never come across it.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Snuffy
Date: 11 Jun 00 - 07:22 PM

As a Morris dancer I personally have no problem with women's sides, but some of the guys I dance with certainly do.

One of the most effective morris displays I have ever seen was a ladies side dancing Vandalls of Hammerwich from Lichfield. They danced it totally differently to a male side, emphasising the delicacy and precision of the sticking, rather thean the force and energy. Different but equally valid - they had changed the feel of the dance to suit their own capabilities.

But I personally don't feel that mixed sides really work - or not very often. What does anyone else think?

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jun 00 - 01:11 AM

(Thanks for the link, Malcolm D. How very much I don't know!)

Ebbie

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Ringer
Date: 12 Jun 00 - 05:09 AM

Do I not remember having read that the black faces was (were?) to provide anonymity. Because of the black faces, the dancers looked like Moors, hence Moorish Dancing which became corrupted to Morris. Presumably the tradition of blacking up fell away except for odd sides like the Shropshire Bedlams, Bacup Coconutters, etc, but the name stuck.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 12 Jun 00 - 09:39 AM

Llanfair

I saw the Shropshire bedlams recently... They do look very menacing... not to mention daft.

But I couldn't help wondering that it must be a complete pain in the axxe to get that stuff off.

Don't think I could ever get into it though... not my style.

I think I will stick to the Irish Set dancing. aaaa 1234567...123 a 123 aaaa 1234567. lol Which is a great laugh. Especially when doing it enmass in market squares in Ireland.

I would have liked to have had a go at clogging though (my late gran always said I should have - she bought me my first pair aged 1 year) but as it happens I followed the Irish side of the family.

Ella

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jun 00 - 12:37 PM

Actually everything I said was true. Just trying to flush Hermione into a gaffe rather than a congeries of minor errors. (There's a word for you Rick)

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: selby
Date: 12 Jun 00 - 01:26 PM

I danced with a mixed dance team with black faces, in our area the dancers used to dance through peoples houses and take soot of the fire back to wipe on their faces, so that when at the end of the night when high jinks took place anonimity was assured. The are reports of the dancers performing for the local nobility and being provided with supper in the servants hall.The local history suggests that in the main it was driven by one family and they were "vagabonds". Keith

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Hermione Heyhoe-Smythe
Date: 12 Jun 00 - 02:28 PM

Trying to flush me into a what, Dickie?
Who didn't get the Black Death reference?
Ha Ha Ha!!!

I think we have the answer to the original question, in a few of the above posts, er poles!
What's with the English?

Their arrogance!!

Apologies to Bronwen; you I didn't mean to have a go at.

:) H H-S

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 12 Jun 00 - 10:29 PM

Now that we've got past the inevitable racist post, it may be time to resume the original discussion.  Given that music works mainly in a social context, I suspect that the marginalisation of traditional musics in England may not be entirely unrelated to the changes that have been imposed on that social context by the increasingly monolithic brewing companies.

When I moved to Sheffield in the early '70s, there was a lot of live, participatory music in the pubs.  Piano-led singsongs in the main -music-hall and old popular songs with a bit of what we'd probably call folkmusic, though there were also instrumental sessions and, a mile or two up the road, traditional singers like Frank Hinchliffe at The Sportsman.  The pubs were mainly composed of clusters of small rooms, so that singing might take place in one room, games in another and so on.  All that changed as the breweries "did up" their tied houses, knocking down internal walls and installing jukeboxes.  The space that had hitherto been available for home-made music disappeared; it wasn't considered profitable.  There were, of course, exceptions: the Carolling tradition survived in spite of these changes, and has been extensively documented by Ian Russell; it survives in good health to this day.  At that time, there was still a discrete Irish community here, and the pubs they used continued to encourage live music, mainly of the "Country & Irish" variety.  Two are still running, and have live music most evenings, though the participants and repertoire are no longer mainly Irish.  In other places, the tradition disappeared; until the mid '70s, the Old Horse still visited pubs in Dore (now a posh, Tory-voting area) at Christmas time -I believe that the Horse itself now languishes, pretty much forgotten, in a garage in Dronfield.

In the last ten years or so, however, there has been a quite surprising expansion of live folkmusic round here, as publicans began to realise that it can boost profits considerably on otherwise quiet nights.  It's a re-invented tradition, of course, but then again most traditions get re-invented on a regular basis.  It's also a mix of English, Irish, Scots and American material; probably most of the participants are very vague about where one ends and the other begins.  We also have a whole bunch of "Irish Theme Pubs", as do most cities in the UK just at present, but these are purely commercial things and will change again when fashion does.  The point I'm trying to make here is that any tradition needs an available shared space in which to function; when that space is removed, the tradition may disappear into hidden areas, or disappear altogether if it is perceived -as it has been all too often- as belonging only to old people and other effectively marginalised groups.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Gervase
Date: 13 Jun 00 - 07:51 AM

Bloody good point Malcolm. So many old-style clubs and sessions in England have been squeezed out by the pub chains, who then "re-invent" traditional music as the inevitable Irish session, resulting in an ersatz experience which mirrors what's happened to English beer, bread and cheese.
But, at the risk of being contentious, perhaps another reason for the popularity of canned Celticism is because we English are simply too boring, reticent and generally inept to make enough of an impact in the average pub. Sessions which really do work - like the Middle Bar of the Anchor at Sidmouth or the barn at Towersey - have a critical mass, both in terms of numbers and those with real talent, which can be literally breathtaking. I know that sessions and clubs are meant to bring on and encourage new performers, but there are limits to how much you can expect an audience to tolerate in terms of mistuning, forgotten lines, false-starts and goofs.
Festivals bring out the best because talented folk are prepared to travel many miles to contribute, but local sessions rely on a very patchy mixture of local talent, and sometimes it just ain't good enough to warrant your average pub-goer turning down the footie and listening.
I know I sound like a curmudgeon - and I realise those rare living saints who do actually get off their arses and organise sessions deserve better than my grumbles - but as a breed, we don't seem terribly good at enthusing people and getting away from the idea of folk as an f-word.
Trouble is, we have to overcome three decades of stereotyping. I've lost count of the number of Aran jersey/beard/finger-in-ear/pewter tankard taunts I've heard, and what really hurts is that so many of them are true.
Please, will someone prove me wrong with details of a regular English sing and play session somewhere within spitting distance of London that isn't part of a festival and which could be construed as traditional - and which isn't like the aftermath of Aunt Gertie's funeral?
Sorry for the ramble, but I needed to get it off me chest! And, please feel free to rant back and put me right.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: sledge
Date: 13 Jun 00 - 11:13 AM

Gervase,

If down Portsmouth way on Tuesday's, the Fighting Cocks Pub in Gosport has a regular, well attended play and sing around. Its been running for around three years now (but we still need a fiddle player if there's any in the locale) and the beer prices are very good.

Cheers

Sledge

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:50 PM

Gervaise me old chum, your points are so true - especially in light of the fact that my local music session died last week, because they had the third change of landlord in as many months. Everyone wants to take over a busy pub, so they check the books. They see it's busy, take it over and immediately get rid of all those things that bring in the money and put in those that drive the real ale drinkers and hardened melodeon players underground, or back home with me on a Thursday, totally ruining the affair I'm having with my telly......

LTS

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:51 PM

And the football.....! Once again, we stick to our great English tradition of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.....

LTS

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Penny S.
Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:56 PM

Arrogant - me? Some may be. Others of us creep around under cover of fondly imagined Celtic links or peasant backgrounds to deny any connection with the arrogant hoorays etc. Hence the abandonment of that which identifies us as the villains in Robin Hood etc.

Penny

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Penny s.
Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:58 PM

And that of course is the traditional stuff. who wants to be identified with what everyone reviles?

Penny

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Jun 00 - 02:49 AM

Having watched the Panorama TV programme on The low-life that attended Euro 2000 and listened to their 'songs', I wonder if this our living tradition?

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Jun 00 - 03:17 PM

I don't know anything about Morris dancing either. But there was an article on Morris fiddlers in Fiddler magazine awhile back, and I thought they were dressed funny. They looked like they had ribbons & streamers & stuff hanging off them.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 Jun 00 - 03:54 PM

Shambles, I just have to tell myself that being English means being part of a very diverse agglomeration of groups who never meet, have nothing to do with each other, and have absolutely nothing in common. That lot even gave being common a bad name.

Penny

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 21 Jun 00 - 04:54 PM

I just now got the joke which I first read a week ago! Morris dancers are anti-Semitic because you have to be a *complete prick* to be a Morris dancer! i.e. you can't be circumcized!

Who else besides me missed that? Come on, fess up!

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Mick Lowe
Date: 21 Jun 00 - 08:39 PM

Oh Dear!!!!
I've been away a couple of months and this is what you get up to behind my back..
I would set about putting the "record straight" viz English Traditional music, but you've gone off on so many tangents I'd be here all night and tomorrow as well...

Let's try and address a few points... first any sexism involved with Morris Dancing... of course there is.. if you knew what Morris Dancing was all about you'd understand why.. namely that of the fertility of crops and livestock.. it is a pagan ritual (just like wassailing) born from the idea that man can fertilise Mother Nature...and thus ensure a good crop of wheat etc.. (hence it needs to be a male thing, unless Mother Nature has seen sense and come out of the closet).. over the passage of time the "Morris" has taken on board other "icons/symbolism".. i.e. the fool etc..depending upon the locality it is performed.. The Abbots Bromley Horn Dance on the 1st May has however still managed to retain much of it's origins despite Blithfield Hall being sold off and a housing estate built on it.. and yes I am bitter about this as my ancestors played a large part in making Abbots Bromley what it was.. alas no more...

I've also come across the so called reference re the blackening of faces in some Morris troupes to "Moors" hence "Morris".. nice idea apart from the fact that the English were probably dancing some form of Morris long before they ever came across the Moors (Don't believe anything in Costner's Robin Hood)..

Now's a good time to get yourself a sandwich and a cuppa because I'm going to rant on for a while yet..

It's not my fault.. you guys introduced so many varied points...

Like dancing.. apart from the Morris that is.. and let's get the record straight here.. Barn Dancing is definitely an American thing.. and yes it is or was when I was a kid , endeavoured to be taught in schools.. and consequently for years after I detested anything that bore the slightest resemblance to it.. what they should have done and in fact now do.. is teach English Country Dancing.. on face value it may seem the same but once you get down to the nuts and bolts of it.. they are worlds apart.. well continents at least..

But none of that addresses what I percieve as the main thrust of this thread in so much as why don't you find any pubs in England playing "English Traditional Music"...

The glib answer is you do.. i.e. find any Irish Theme bar and they are bound to be playing English or Scots music..that is reels, jigs and hornpipes are as Irish as the Pope is jewish..

What the original question should have been is.. Why do you only get the craic in pubs deemed as "Irish"... and that delves deep into the culture of the staid, conservative Englishman.. (I can say this because I am one).. the English having once ruled over the biggest empire this world has seen have now gone into abject withdrawl and readily denounce anything that may associate the "new liberal minded Englishman" with thoughts of tradition.. we are far too ready to take on board other cultures.. which don't get me wrong.. they are just as important (musically I mean).. but we have tended to lose our heritage in doing so...

To the extent that come Friday night I play and sing in a pub in England that "Bills" the event as being an "Irish night"..

I find it rather paradoxical that being a part of the English race that has for years endeavoured to subjucate the Irish (God alone knows why).. I now spend most of my time performing in an "Irish" pub in the heart of England..

I'm straying from the original concept of this thread...
English Traditional Music is still alive (not sure about being well). the Spinners have a lot to answer for.. they have done more harm to English Taditional music than Val Doonican did to Irish. You can not appreciate "folk/traditional music/songs" without a sense of understanding or history.. the Irish (God bless them).. maintain their heritage (albeit poached from elsewhere).. the English are far too ready to throw their heritage into the skip and embrace any new culture that may alleviate any sense of guilt..

I've said too much without saying enough.. such is life..

This is somewhat a pet project of mine (like you haven't gathered that fact).. sometime in the future I hope to write "something" that will set out to make sense of it all.. if you want to contribute or even shoot down any theories I have.. please drop me an amail at [e-mail]...

At the end of the day .. who cares where the music came from. so long as we enjoy it...

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Terry K
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 12:12 AM

well done Jim - have you been thinking of that all week?

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 07:59 AM

Dear Mick Lowe,

I'm pleased to encounter someone who'se thinking along the same lines as myself. (Apart, that is, from McGrath of Harlow - but he and I are partners in crime from way back.) If you'd like to read my thoughts on the subject in more detail, see my article "England, whose England?" in Rod Stradling's web magazine, Musical Traditions at http://mustrad.org.uk (where much else of interest can be found. I'd like to hear your response to it (or anyone else's for that matter).

Wassail!

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Brendy
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 08:09 AM

England, Whose England?

B.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 08:59 AM

Mike - a superb essay. But isn't it sad that any discussion of the English Tradition tends towards the elegaic than the celebratory?

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Jeremy
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 10:01 AM

Just finished reading this thread and would like to reply to Gervase who described the malaise affecting the English folk-singing-in-pubs scene very succinctly. To give him some hope, I can advise that there is a fortnightly session held in pubs in West Kent by The Travelling Folk where folksong/music is brought out to the public rather hiding it away in upstairs rooms.

The Travelling Folk is a moveable folk session which only performs in the pub bar. The usual formula is for an MC to direct proceeding in a subtle way and to try to get the locals to join in or contribute a joke, story or a song. Anything can happen .. even Elvis Presley take-offs. Chorus songs are interspersed with ballads and music sessions and the main emphasis is to get the public joining in. No entrance fee is charged (of course) but if all goes well the publican passes the jug of beer around and a collection may be taken for charity.

Different pubs are visited so that a pub only gets a couple of visits a year. The session frequently gets local billing in the pub or newspaper and are well attended. All musicians and singers are most welcome.

The next few dates are as follows:

12/7 The Black Horse, Stanstead, Wrotham, Kent 14-16/7 The Bull's Head, Boreham Street,Hailsham,E Sussex (Camping weekend at a great country pub) 7/9 George & Dragon, Tudeley, Tonbridge, Kent

Look at Folk London's gig guide for later listings

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 06:15 PM

Thank you Mike. I wish I read it earlier, it would have saved me a lot of postings.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 07:36 AM

Well I will continue to maintain that it comes from Maori's dancing.

The 'get everyone involved' camp and the 'do it right and keep it pure' brigade, will argue forever, I suspect. Whichever camp you may support, be it in dance, song or music, it is always going to be more important, for others to know, the reasons why you feel the way you do.

Despite the divisions, Morris appears to me to be increasingly more popular. The attraction of Morris being that it is enjoyable. In the past money may have played a part but I suspect the main attraction even then was enjoyment and distraction. Whether the fertility idea had or has much or any basis, it is a lot less important to dancers, than getting together and having fun. The Abbots Bromley being danced to the tune of 'Yellow Submarine' (see the first thread), seems to indicate which side of the argument has most popular support.

Is there not a certain inevitability to this outcome?

This Folk song collecting. Good or bad? also touches on and adds to many of the points in these threads.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 07:43 AM

Kolk song collecting. Good or bad?

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 07:45 AM

Well you know what I mean.

What is Kolk?

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 10:20 AM

Gervase and The Shambles - thanks for your comments on my paper. As to the question of why so much writing on this topic is "elegaic" ... well, perhaps it's because so many of us doing the writing are getting into our autumnal years (even if we still think of ourselves as young at heart). Most of the young people I know who are interested in traditional music, dance & song seem too busy playing, singing and dancing to spend much time theorising about it. Which is probably a good thing. However, somebody needs to look back and ponder occasionally. As Santayana (the American philospher, not the Mexican general) once said: people who cannot remember their history are condemned to repeat it. But being a historian by trade, I would say that, wouldn't I?

Wassail!

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 05:30 PM

Err - Hermione, did you get a date wrong? Treaty of Leake, 1318. Black death, bubonic plague that swept Europe 1347-1351 and remained endemic in England until 1666.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 08:17 PM

And it was Richard Strauss not Wagner.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Penny S.(elsewhere)
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 12:34 PM

Jeremy, is that the same Stansted that lies down little tiny lanes between Wrotham and Meopham? With an ancient yew tree in the churchyard?

Penny

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Lady Dorothy Wibley-Forbes
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 01:56 PM

Or Dottie to my chums.

And that really rather depends on you, Richard, old boy!

Lady Hermione regrets she's unable to lunch today. She did, though, ask me to pass on her good wishes to all her new friends, and to chastise you, Richard, for being such a naughty chap!

You said:
"Err - Hermione, did you get a date wrong? Treaty of Leake, 1318"

Now. If you had have read her words on 08-Jun-00 - 09:23 PM, you would have clearly seen, Treaties of Leake and the like, notwithstanding:
"Sorry for any confusion caused, Richard. I naturally assumed that this date was engrained in all of our collective psyches.
Reggie's great Uncle Cuthbert, who often had the ear of dear Queen Vic., used to gather us round the fireside in the evening. And as he would bounce me on his lap, up and down, he would often tell of the evening that grave news reached the shores of old Blighty concerning events in nether parts of the world.

Indeed, Richard, grave news. Grave news indeed, Richard! We had time, though, to prepare, and by the time the blasted thing hit, somewhere around 1350, anybody who was anybody, had hopped off to more clement climes to ride out the storm, as it were."

You haven't read your Treveleyan, Richard, dear boy! Or Macauley, for that matter. You obviously haven't read closely Lady Hermione's words
But there you went; charging in with gay abandon, not caring where your sword flailed.
So forceful you are, Richard; so.......dominant A Man of Letters, I should have thought, would have exhibited more breeding and thoughtfulness, especially to a dear old lady of The Duchess' standing.
Fie, Richard. Fie!

:( D W-F

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 11:54 AM

Penny S. Yes. THat Stansted.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Jeremy
Date: 30 Jun 00 - 05:25 AM

Message to Penny You are correct - the Black Horse is the one in Stansted up in the hills between Meopham and Wrotham. Hard to find but well worth it when you do! By the way, the pub is holding a Kent food and ale festival all week and there will be folk music/singing and morris dancing every night Try calling the Landlord, Ian Duncan for an events list

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Mick Lowe
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 08:55 PM

Okay I'm revisting this after being away again for some time, and hopefully will pick up on a few points that will add to the overall discussion..
As far as anti-semitism is concerned re Morris Dancing.. all I can say is that the whole of Europe (which was the the known world when Morris Dancing was introduced) was anti-semtic. hence streets in England being called "Drury Lane".. i.e. where the Jews lived.. I don't think you can place any blame on Morris dancing for reflecting anti semetic views as Shakespeare's blantant attack on them, in Merchant of Venice.. we have to accept history as it was and hopefully learn by it.. which is what the whole concept of Morris Dancing is about .. it takes centuries old perceptions of fertility and Mother Earth and continues to celebrate the union of man and nature through song and dance..
And yes I know like all religions or religios beliefs it is totally phoney .. here's a question for you.. how many Morris Dancers are atheists?.. i.e. do not believe in the one God?.. do not believe in either the Church of England or RC?.. but I still bet they are happy to dance and sing to pagan beliefs that have streched back countless centuries...
And why... because they have an unknowing appreciation of tradition and history.. it doesn't matter whether you believe in the philosophy surrounding a given song/tune.. so long as you can associate with the history surrounding it when you perform it..that song/tune can effect not only yourself whilst playing.. but anyone listening..
Which unfortunately drags me back to very good question ..why don't we get English pubds promoting English traditional music?.. I think Malcolm hit the nail on the head..
Though I think any English catters who view this thread so see it as there sole purpose as educating the rest of the world as to he origins of "folk music"

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Sailor Dan
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 09:20 PM

Oh well here I go again. to just dumb old me, and being Irish at that, which should make me doubly stupid in the eyes of the english, The Morris DAncers?? sound like a bunch of queer anti everything assholes that did come to the states and formed another anonymous group of assholes called the KKK. The to are anti everything and instead of blackface they use pillow cases, its easier to get off.

IRISH Sailor DAn

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 02:15 AM

Well, that was constructive, wasn't it?

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 03:29 PM

Black faces and being covered in ribbons (or tatters) are methods of disguise (or guise - pronounced geeze) and were used so that if you muffed it up or as things got rowdier, played a trick on your host for not giving you the decent beer, you wouldn't be recognised the next day (except maybe by the bits of soot stuck to your ears...) The tatters were old clothes torn into strips and sewn to a jacket, to disguise the shape of the person, their everyday clothes (in an era when most people were sewn into their only shirt in September and didn't take it off until May [ne'er cast a clout {cloth} till the may be out] and it was recognisable by all), and to keep them warm - a tatter jacket is much warmer than an ordinary one.... try it!

The ribbon masks were hoods with stiffened tops that had strips of cloth or ribbons sewn on to disguise the features but still allow space for breathing and playing instruments. There's a bit in one of the Thomas Hardy novels where a girl takes over as one of the mummers - not a seemly thing for a girl, as it involved wearing boys' clothes. Apparently it was OK for a bloke to dress as a girl but not vice versa..... I think it is 'Return of the Native'.

LTS

PS Malcom, I've just got back from a weekend in Sheffield, parading a giant and playing with Sheffield City Morris - they are a superb team, you're very lucky to have them!! (OK so I fancy at least 3 of them......)

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: bbelle
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 03:46 PM

Ok ... I understand about the Moors=Morris and why the blackened faces=Moors ... sort of. Where does the anti-semitism come in to play? Is this a historical reference or is it practiced today? Sephardic Jews (of which I am one) are descended from the Jews of North Africa (the Moors) so I'm curious as to the history ...

moonchild

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 04:21 PM

There's a lot of confusion over the etymology of "Morris" and the reason for the blackface disguise; opinions -and, for the most part, that's all they are- differ quite widely.  I see little evidence that face-blackening originated as an "imitation" of Moorish skin-colour; it seems far more likely that it's just a simple form of ritual diguise; a person with pale skin will darken their face with soot, while a person with dark skin will lighten it with ashes (a common practice, for example, in African and Indian traditions).   As for anti-semitism, so far we have only an unsubstantiated assertion from Terri K.  As I mentioned earlier in this thread, there were certainly some fascist sympathisers involved with the Morris Ring in its early days in the 1930s; they saw it as an "English" thing that they could usefully latch on to, but so far as I know their influence was not far-reaching or long-lasting.  I believe that most of them drifted off into the nascent Pagan movement, but others will know the facts of that.  I'm not involved in Morris myself, though I know a good few who are, and, for what it's worth, the majority of them are left-wing in political terms.  I doubt very much if there's significant anti-semitism amongst Morris Dancers; at least no more than one would expect in proportion to its existence in the population as a whole.  Obviously other people may have a different experience; it would be interesting to know.

P.S.  I'll pass on the compliment, Liz.  Who was it you fancied, then?

Malcolm

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Snuffy
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 07:43 PM

THERE IS NO ANTI-SEMITISM IN MORRIS DANCING. Terry's post was just setting up the joke abou having to be a complete prick to be a morris dancer. But there is still sexism among a substantial minority of morrismen who think it's not right for women to perform traditional male ritual dances. As a morris dancer, this is not an opinion I personally subscribe to.

Sailor Dan, you say you're Irish, but it sounds to me like you come from another planet. Get real!!

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Mick Lowe
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 08:05 PM

First off apologies called for.. i.e. I got booted off whilst composing my last diatribe and since have lost what ever thread I may have been clinging to..

But having browsed through subsequent additions I am going to forget all you one liners and somewhat .. and was going to revert to some coarse analogy.. but I think this thread deserves better..
Instead I shall say this.. both Liz and Malcolm I should be more than interested to hear about all your experiences regarding Morris music/dancing and for that matter as this thread set up as "The English Tradition"..

If you'd care to email me your thoughts/opinions on anything to do with "English Traditional Music and Soing".. then please do so at [e-mail]..

Though I should warn you one of these days I will get around to writing a book on the importance of "folk" music.. and yes I shall readily acknowledge my sources.....
In the meantime we should all look to preserving our heritage through song and music.. no matter where we come from.. or whatever beliefs we hold...

Mick

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 09:37 PM

Thanks for the clarification, Snuffy!  I, for one, swallowed the bait, and really should have spotted the link to the joke.  Trouble is, it was perhaps just a little too close to some real issues relating to the Morris Revival that are still not fully resolved; particularly, here, in view of the frankly hostile (and ignorant) posts from an anonymous stirrer that turned up on the previous thread.  "Drunken" Sailor Dan evidently fell for it too, though in a more unpleasant way.

Oh well...

Malcolm

P.S.  Mick: don't forget to put a semi-colon after the """, so that it works!

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: bbelle
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 09:45 PM

hmmmm! Sexism = Anti-semitism? Sorry, folks, but I don't get the joke. Is it the British humour or am I obtuse. Enlighten me, please ...

moonchild

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 10:32 PM

Moonchild:

It turns out that the reference to anti-semitism at the beginning of this thread was just a wind-up, leading to the joke  (something like)  Question: "Why are there no Jewish Morris Dancers?"   Answer: "Because you have to be a complete prick to be a Morris Dancer."

I've only ever heard the joke told by Morrispersons (or their families) in self-mockery, and completely missed the point on this occasion.  The sexist business is an entirely different issue, and relates to the insistence of some Morris Dancers that it's a male-only fertility rite, and that it's therefore inappropriate for women to participate.  Personally, I think that is just foolishness, with no historical evidence to support it: it's worth remembering, though, that the world is full of traditional practices that are restricted to one sex only.   These restrictions must be respected when we are dealing with other peoples' cultures; when they are our own, I guess that we have the right to expect an attitude that corresponds to our current views of what is enlightened.

I hope that makes some sort of sense.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: bbelle
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 10:41 PM

Thank you for the explanation ... the joke is actually somewhat amusing ... now that I "get" it. I was having a hard time imagining anti-semitism because I know that Bill Sables plays for a Morris Dancing group and don't think that would appeal to him ...

moonchild

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 09:30 AM

Mick - my Experiences with Morris Dancers will be available as a one off single run printing, sold only in plain brown wrappers at an astronomical charge.

Malcolm - read the book!!! I'm taking the fifth!!!

However, it isn't true that you'll get pregnant if you wear a morris dancers hat - I've worn several and only had one baby - and that (amongst other things) was due to being painted green by the bogies at Hastings!

LTS

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 09:39 AM

I started reading this thread Last Friday, just before leaving for the weekends "Morris Dancing" so this could go anywhere and will be exremely fractisized.

All Male sides can and do look good because of the the extreme masculine effort that they put into the dance. If you have ever seen "Jack in the Green" dance with their "Short sticks" about 14" long and at least 4" in diameter, they also travel vast distances during their dances. They even managed to break one of these at the London Ale (Ontario, not England) So I guess that covers the robust masculine stuff.

All female sides can and do look good and do great dances. To me a lot depends on the "Tradition" or the Style of Morris in question "Forest City" and two other sides whose names evade my scattered mind, one from california who dance in Pink and Black and one who attend the Toroto Ale from Michigan, are great examples of all womens sides. They seem to perform the "Hanky" dances with more grace and style than some all male sides.

Mixed sides can also work well, there are many sides on this side of the Atlantic who dance the "Cotswold" styles with both sexes of dancers. There are also several "Border" sides who I have seen dance with mixtures, "Bassett Street Hounds", "Woad Works" and of course the finest border side in the Universe (no bias here folks) "ORANGE PEEL". There are probably people that will argue that "Border" is not even Morris Dancing anyhow!

There are even a few "Childrens" sides around, you are never too young, or old in my case to learn.

A lot of the side I have mentioned above even have Canadians and Americans dancing with them, what about that

The "Tatter Coats" are exremely hot, mine is Black even, especially on 85+ deg days with no shade to dance in.

The face Blackening seems to have taken a turn to colour, with side like "Woad Works" Blue Faces, "Not for Joe" Red and Yellow(I think that is the right name and colour)This side also has a tradition called "smudging" probably not too appreciated by the audiences of soot blacked dancers.

I forget what elese I was going to say, lost my conection. Also lost many hours of sleep singing and dancing over the weekend.

I would just like to refer non believers on the Mixed sex issue to the song "Dancing at Whitsun" I think it is on the site, it speaks for itself.

I personally prefer to see anyone and everyone singing dancing and enjoying ALL of the traditional customs than to see them DIE!

Keep on Dancing and Singing JohnB

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 09:45 AM

Elucidate on the smudgeing, it sounds like fun......

LTS

And I'm still not telling which three.....

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,JulieF
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 09:46 AM

I'ld definately be interested in the book Liz. People always say that you have a book in you somewhere - I always thought that mine was a dectective story about a Morris Dancing inspector. In fact I even wrote the first story when I took my A Level English a few years ago.

All this about sexism in morris dancing - what about the fickleness. I mean you meet them in one team - waving hankies and banging sticks ( ok so I forget all the technical terms) , then you see them with someone else waving big swords around and then you see them taunting giants. Sometimes they even dance with more than one team at the same time. Its enough to make you take their beer away.

Julie

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Snuffy
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 09:49 AM

I think face-blacking was mainly done in the winter, and usually by mummers rather than dancers. (the Not-for-Jo morris of the Borders was traditionally done at mid-winter, I believe).

Black was not the only colour used - in sheep-farming areas they often used raddle, so faces were red or blue. But for most people soot was easily available and free, and the fact that it was black was not important.

The Cotswold Morris sides danced in Spring/Summer, and wore white, and didn't disguise themselves, as they didn't want to get soot all over their virginal costumes.

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Snuffy
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 09:54 AM

John B.

I had never associated Dancing at Whitsun with the Morris. I had always imagined it meant that at the village dances, when other women danced with husbands/sweethearts, the "old maids" had to dance with each other, because their men never came back from the war.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 09:58 AM

They'd better not try taunting OUR giants, that's all I can say!

Of my little dancing friends: the SO dances with both sword and morris, Rog dances with 3 teams, Tim dances with a morris team and giants as well and even I myself have jingled with 2 sides and at least 10 giants (662 if you count the really big meeting in Spain in 1992.....) There is a move afoot to have a giant morris dance group:- minimum height requirement 8 ft. Two have already performed, a third is waiting to be built - anyone want to add some more??

LTS

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 10:14 AM

Well Liz the noble art of "Smudgeing" entails taking your male or female dancers face with the colours of your particular side painted upon it. I guess it wirks best with the wax type paints. You then proceed to transfer some of the colour to a member of the audience, I guess that you can choose your own preffered sex. You can definitely choose the area of their anatomy that you wish to "Smudge". I think that just about covers it. JohnB

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,JulieF
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 10:18 AM

Now I would go quite as distance to see a Giant Morris side. I've only see 4 so far. There was the two that came for the World Student Games in '91. They came with two little ones as attendants. And there were two that were given to Sheffield in '92 which we see around alot at various events. I did hear about the festivals in Spain as I used to work for one of the morris team at the point they were learning Catalan.

Julie

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 10:19 AM

Well Snuffy, I have always taken it to mean the Morris. "In a drees of white linen and ribbons of green ...." The "gear" would not be required for country dance. JohnB

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 10:49 AM

Morris dance was never a "ritual" unless "ritual" is defined broadly to include things like (in the U.S.) 4th of July parades. It was, and is, a public entertainment.

T.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 12:01 PM

Julie - where were you this weekend? Did you go to Sheffield at all? I was there with the two Sheffield City giants, War and Peace and one of our own, the Morrigan from London! I was also at the Student Games in '91 - the giants were the 2 Catalan national giants 'Commerce & Industry' and 'Art & Culture'. The other two were Nathandriel from Huddersfield and Bran Duir from London. I was with the London giant, the little green one.

The giant morris side will probably appear at Hastings next year, unless someone wants to organise an expenses paid trip to somewhere before next May! We are more than happy to dispence advice and instruction if anyone wants to find out more about making or seeing giants.... next confirmed sighting of the Morrigan will be near Halloween, weekend of 17th October, in London.

LTS

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,JulieF
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 12:11 PM

Were you on Devonshire Green? I would have been there with the Irish Dancers but Cat had to go to her Orchestra practice for the Italian Tour rather than dance and Tim was helping run a pantomine. We were there at the Student Games events. Cat was six at the time and my favourite memory is taking two hours to pass the security at the Games Village. The Kids danced and this 6ft Five Korean Basketball player joined in with them.

Sorry have to go now - Hometime.

Julie

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Peg
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 12:18 PM

Just saw a very pagan Morris troupe perform at the Rollrights, called The Wild Hunt Morris. They performed an amazing and intense ritualized dance piece for summer solstice called The Cycle of the Green Man, I believe...anyone else ever seen them? No white shoes and red garters for them; these blokes and gals are mostly in black with red and green ribbons, and incredibly evocative masks...

really great stuff, this is what Morris should be!!

peg

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 12:21 PM

Yes, we got a melodeon and a video stolen from there later in the evening. Sheffield police had no idea what a melodeon was - ever try explaining to a non musician what a melodeon is?

I was one of the two in a black tatter cape with long blonde hair, we were dancing the giants not long before the Irish set came on in the tent. The Irish dancers were rather upstaged by the Chinese lion dance going on outside.....

Was the world and their partners in Sheffield this weekend??

LTS

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 12:28 PM

Wild Hunt are planning a weekend in Chatham, Kent in September - if anyone wants to see them (and incidentally, a giant or two) I'll be happy to post details as soon as I know them. They may also be performing at the Halloween Festival, weekend of 17/18 October, in London, again, more details when I can get them.

LTS

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Ringer
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 12:50 PM

Okiemockbird: The Morris is not just public entertainment. It's called ritual to distinguish it from social dancing, where couples get to touch each other. When I first took up the Morris, my chum Andy Reed used to say he did it because it made him feel like a man. Now thats ritual dancing...

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 01:04 PM

Since this thread has drifted to the perpetually controversial topic of Gender and Morris Dancing, I'll take the opportunity to throw in a few more provocative observations.

1) Men only teams. I've seen a great many of these, ranging in quality from astonishingly good to appallingly inept. But I find that even the inept teams - provided they don't take themselves seriously, and don't go on too long - can be quite amusing.

2) Women only teams. I've seen a fair few, and the best of them are every bit as good as the best men's sides. However, I don't find the less-good female teams as amusing as the less-good all male sides. Perhaps that's my own fault ... or perhaps it's because the less-good all-female sides are not deliberately playing for laughs?

(Aside: would it be sexist to say that men behaving like idiots can sometimes be funny, but women behaving like idiots are usually embarassing to watch?)

3) Mixed teams. I've seen a few, some of who are well on the way to being very good indeed. But my impression is that even the best of them are still struggling to evolve a distinctive style of their own. What I mean by that is, a style that doesn't require female members of the team to put on an over-hearty pseudo-macho manner, or reqmale members of the team to restrain their natural aggression and vulgarity because they are dancing with ladies.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 01:30 PM

"In a dress of white linen and ribbons of green ...." - I take that to mean Garland-dancing rather than Morris Dancing as such.

That's another type of ritual English dance in which all the participants carry half-hoops wrapped in ribbons and flowers and that. All women - though there never seems to have been any big issue made about whether there should be Mixed Garland-dancing for some reason.

I have seen a Garland-dance team who were short a member for a dance, so they roped in a hairy-face Morris Dancer. A sight to remember.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 02:47 PM

Bald Eagle: my point is that that this seems to be a tendentious use of the word "ritual". We don't ordinarily think of ballet as a "ritual" dance form, so why should we think of morris this way ?

T.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Snuffy
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 07:08 PM

In many villages the Morris was only performed once a year, typically at Whitsun.

Apparently, quite a few dancers selected didn't particularly want to do it, but it was something that had to be done for the sake of the whole village. If the dance was not done at the right time, a great disater would befall the community (so they believed). Many men did it from a sense of obligation rather than for pleasure.

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 07:23 PM

Morris wasn't the only dance done at Whitsun - in Abbotsbury, Dorset, in my grandmothers' time, there were what Thomas Hardy called 'Club' dances or walks, usually on feast days (Whitsun, Rogation, Easter, that sort of thing, when you could guarantee most of the day off) which was basically a ritual procession round the village to mark the boundaries, and a dance was held in the evening. It started as all women, because the men were all in the fields working. They came along later, so some ritual dances were just for women. I was told that the men do their dances "t'other side of hill", my grandmother was never enlightened as to what they did 't'other side of hill' so she wasn't able to tell me.

This sort of stretched out into Abbotsbury Garland day, where they processed a garland of flowers around the village and then flung it into the sea for a good catch in the year to come. This was followed by the same ritual type dancing until the war years, when it started to wane.

LTS

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 08:35 PM

In some places it might be called part of the "ritual" to have a performance of Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker at Christmastime. But every performance of the Nutcracker doesn't become "ritual" thereby, nor does all ballet become a "ritual dance" genre.

T.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 08:53 PM

I remeber years back seeing the Manchester(I think) Morris MEN all with hairy faces dancing Northwest Garland dances with Clogs AND making it look MANLY.

Do some people still not realize that without the ritual of morris dancers getting up to dance at dawn on May 1st there would be no summer.

I wasn't in Sheffield this weekend, too far.

Are there pictures posted anywhere of the Giants ?? I'm intrigued. JohnB

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 09:49 PM

"It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it."

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: IanC
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 04:28 AM

With reference to "The Ladies Dance at Whitsun", there doesn't need to be any particular controversy over clothes. White clothing was common at Whitsun and people often dressed in their best to do "country dancing".

Actually, I thought that the tenor of the song indicated that the women were dancing originally to replace the men who were away/lost at war.

Cheers!IanC

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 04:31 AM

There is a picture of the Sheffield Giants  here.

I'm inclined to describe Morris as "ceremonial" dance, which isn't quite so loaded a term as "ritual", but still makes a useful distinction between it -as a form of dance traditionally associated with particular times of the year and frequently linked with other calendar customs- social dancing and purely "performance" dancing (clog, for example).

Malcolm

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 09:59 AM

And now some news just in from our roving reporter, who is currently scouring the country in search of the Living English Tradition.

For this part of my exhaustive research, I spent Sunday at Christchurch Festival at an informal gathering, sitting under a tree, playing my bouzouki and banjo in the sun outside a pub. There was a collection fine folk playing guitars, banjos, mandolins, accordions, fiddles, flutes, harmonicas and whistles. In roughly that order of abundance.

It would be fair to say that the overall influence was American. The skiffle influence was most apparent with songs like; Midnight Special, Jesse James and Worried Man. There were Carter family tunes also. The other songs were mostly Irish. Star of County Down and Leaving of Liverpool type things. The tunes were also mainly Irish session standards too. It was all very enjoyable.

There was a request for Trumpet Hornpipe (better known as the tune to the Captain Pugwash TV show), which as far as I am aware is an English tune? This was greeted with a strange ritual of 'knowing looks' and 'eyeball rolling', among those playing. Those listening however liked it very much.

Can anyone explain this reaction?

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 06:55 PM

Great picture of the giants, where did you find it? I searched for ages to get one like that! That is Tim standing up, he dances with Sheffield City Morris, and Alec sitting down, no longer dances 'due to old age and decreptitude'..... both bloody nice blokes.....

See also the 'is everybody here from Sheffield' thread.. sorry no blue clicky transfer things.

LTS

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: JohnB
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 07:35 PM

Thanks for posting the Giant location Malcolm. They are somewhat as I imagined, I saw a giant Punch and Judy at the Milton Ren Festival a couple of years ago. Always wanted to make a couple myself since then. JohnB

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 02:29 AM

JohnB - you want to make giants? Where are you? We always need more people to make and carry giants - if you are serious, send me personal message and we'll go from there...... And there is at least one giant in the USA made traditionally (i.e., not an inflatable......) - and they are definately NOT a Punch and Judy, although if you want to build one........?!

LTS

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Tracey
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 11:26 AM

The "Captain Pugwash" bit might be because of the old urban legend that the characters in the cartoon had suggestive names. "Seaman Staines" and "Master Bates" are the ones most often quoted, but I don't believe that this is actually true - the show's creator hotly denies anything of the sort! Also re Morris Dancers being "manly"... you can't get much more masculine (except for a certain subset in leather hats with little chains and cut-outs in their tight leather trousers that we don't usually associate with much!) than the great British biker, right? Well, there is a biker Morris troupe - I've seen them with my own eyes. Blasted great hairy chaps in denim and leather that arrive on beautiful chopped Brit bikes, using Whitworth spanners instead of sticks. The heavy bike boots and spanners make a nice clomping, ringing melody to accompany them, and they're extremely energetic and most entertaining. I'm not sure if this particular form of propitiating the gods would ideally result in a good harvest, or just good riding weather in our fickle English climate, but a good time was most definitely had by all!

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Ringer
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 11:33 AM

Okiemockbird: This is going to be positively my last word on the subject, and I'm afraid I'm going to sound patronising, but I don't mean to be. I think it's like the Harley: if you can't see it, you wouldn't understand even if it was explained. I have no axe to grind on the subject of "ritual" -- if you don't like it, don't use it. I use it only when I wish to lump together Morris, Long-sword and Rapper and distinguish them from Country Dancing.

I had to look up "tendentious", and find it defined as "intended to further a cause". What cause do you belive the coiners of the adjective ritual wrt Morris Dancing were intending to further?

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Bagpuss
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 11:37 AM

Captain Pugwash - the stuff about rude names is definitely made up. There was Jim the cabin boy (not Roger), and it was Master Mates, not Bates. But there is a kids tv site that has a wav file where they say Master Bates - I dont know if it was a slip of the tongue in the original, or whether it has been altered to support the myth.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 12:03 PM

Royal Liberty Morris, based in Essex/East London have been known to dance publicly and on TV dressed in bike leathers and using bits of scaffold pole or tractor spanners for sticks. They are a sight to behold - excellent style with a different slant - and speaking as an ageing greasy biker chick type, we do want to talk about them, because there are quite a lot that hide in folk and blues clubs, don't ye know!!

Regrettably, my SO taught the original members of Royal (or Right) Liberty everything they know...... ergh...

LTS

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Tracey Dragonsfriend
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 12:25 PM

Oh, it was you & yours, was it, Liz? Now we know who to blame! Seriously, though - they do a good job of it, don't they? I get the feeling there's not many there of the chained-leather-hat brigade - if you ever wanted a definition of "male" they're it!
I wonder where they can be found this summer...

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 06:16 PM

Try one of the Morris Dance pages - I'm sure if the SO weren't out organising a tour this very night, he'd be able to give me an address - something like the Morris Dancers discussion forum.

He's out organising for East Saxon Sword, in the West End. 5 pubs he said, but that was 6 hours ago.....

LTS

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 06:59 PM

There's Morris Dancing done as public entertainment (well aspiring to be public enteertainment) and there's (maybe the same dances and the same people) done as ritual. When a bunch of dancers gather at 5am to dance at the Puddlestone on May 1st in Standon, there's not much public entertainment going on. And the pubs aren't even open.

And I've never been to see them because I'm snoring away in my bed,like all sensible people. But I'd be annoyed if I heard it wasn't going to happen. And I know mpeople who'd be so annoyed they'd get out of bed and do it themselves, probably swearing volubly while they were doing it.

And in a sense even when Morris Dancing is done more as entertainment (in front of a pub for example) there's an element of that - just turn and look at the people passing. So many of them smile approvingly as they walk by, pleased that it's still going on. And I'm not talking about folkies here either. It's a bit like village cricket, there in the background, not a spectator sport at all, more a seasonal ritual.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Tracey Dragonsfriend
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 03:35 AM

And so it should be! It's part of our heritage, and as such we should celebrate it. So many of our traditions are being eroded away, by the importation of so many people that couldn't care less about England as long as it houses & pays them for doing nothing, and the relentless pressure to become more European, American, multicultural,... anything but English!
For example, my local school actually isn't allowed to celebrate Christmas or Easter in case it offends someone, but does celebrate Diwali, Chanukah, and endless others. Now, I'm happy to have other culture's traditions celebrated, but in addition to, not instead of, our own! It's a very, very strange thing our government are trying to do...

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Albatross
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 11:33 AM

I agree with Tracey Dragonsfriend (what an excellent name!) there are too many do gooders around when it comes too racism OK it is awful and despicable but we should always remember that europeans are also disliked in third world countries and that there is obviously a natural tendency to be discerning and to dislike neighbours eg flemish/walloons, turkish/greeks, kurds/iraq, nomads/non nomads (berbers, samis, kurds),etc.

Why can't everybody be tolerant like the English?

But then on a lighter note the best Ladies morris team I ever saw was White Ladies Morris from Bristol. They were all young, beautiful and georgeous but then that was in 1977 at a Manchester Morris day of dance.

Morris dancing is seen in an oil painting of an idyllic country scene of the Ashburnham estate from 1700. Their dancing provided fertility in agriculture and weddings though no doubt this practice was severely frowned upon by puritans who have a lot to answer for in the way of 'witch hunting' out many old dances and traditions. A Sheffield Morris team used to always introduce their dance performance by saying that: "Morris dancing is an old tradition that will bring you good luck, fortune and fertility and if you don't like the fertility then you can spread it on the garden"

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Bagpuss
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 11:51 AM

"Why can't everybody be tolerant like the English?"

?????????????? I must be living in a different England!

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Tracey Dragonsfriend
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 01:37 PM

Well, the English are definitely more tolerant than some, I would say. If I don't like something, I might write a stern letter to the Times or my MP to express my disapproval, rather than taking an Uzi or sawn-off shotgun and hunting down the person I deem responsible. Although that's a thought to consider, you know! If we shot all the politicians, then surely some honest people would turn up to do the job instead? Maybe not, though...
As regards racism, I definitely think things are going a bit far now, with whole government departments and heaps of thoroughly-politically-correct "persuns" making sure that nothing could possibly offend anyone, and making sure that nayone who chooses to turn up on our shores has the best possible treatment. It's all a bit odd - I wouldn't turn up at Calais, Dusseldorf or Kabul with a suitcase and expect the long-time residemts of that country to speak English to me, feed, clothe & house me, after all! Maybe Australia has it right - prove that you have something to offer them and they'll let you move there.
Re the name, I have a fairly vast collection of dragons of all sorts - pewter dragons, china dragons, lots of silver jewellery with dragons(much of which stays on permanently - I always have 3 dragons about my person at all times! Well, you never know when you might need one!)glass & stone dragons, cute cuddly furry dragons... I'm hoping that this flabby pink bipedal body is just a larval stage, and that the scales & wings will start to come in any day now! But I guess if it hasn't happened yet, and I'm 35 now, it possibly never will.
There's another thought, though - does anyone know any dragon songs? I found a pair in some song Db, being "Do Virgins Taste Better?" and "The Dragon's Retort", but that's all so far, unless you count "The Lampton Worm"! Dragons are pretty old in English tradition, after all...

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: selby
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 02:06 PM

Our Traditional music is as diverse as the people who live in this Country of ours. All of us have an intrest in the tradition's and music, or we wouldn't be discussing them as we do. I have sung & played in folk clubs I have danced on the streets as a traditional dancer I have played in sessions and I have built a giant but the one thing that strikes me most is I have enoyed it, is that not what all tradition's is about. Keith

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 02:37 PM

It's a bit rich to have the English complaining about people coming here after hundred of years of spreading out all over the planet totally regardless of what anyone else might feel about it.

Fifty eight dead bodies in a container truck in Dover, people who just wanted to come here and do useful jobs of work, that's the price of trying to keep barriers up around this island.

England's got a lot of good traditions which deserve to be honoured and maintained, and if that is done we'll end up with a much richer culture. But racist cracks about foreigners coming in and living off our backs doesn't help that to happen. And very few people I know in tye foklk world would have any respect for that kind of talk. thank God.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Filbert
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 03:16 PM

"Well, the English are definitely more tolerant than some, I would say"

Bollocks

You're not a very smart person, are you?

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 03:25 PM

There's racists in every country. Saying "the English are racist" or "the English aren't racist" are both meaningless generalisations.

There's lots of English people who aren't racists. And there are too many who are. And the important thing is to minimise the effect of the ones who are, and help them get out of that way of thinking if possible.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Bagpuss
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 03:54 PM

Did anyone actually say that the English are racists?

I didn't - just think we are not as tolerant as we like to believe. I still hear people on the bus talking about "pakis" and "poofs". I just think we shouldn't get complacent - theres a lot still needs to be done.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 04:00 PM

Tracey - you and I are kindred spirits - as anyone will tell you, who's been here, the house is full of dragons, here there and everywhere. There is one on the stairs, one in the loo (and on it....) there are at least 350 lurking around, and I got married with three in attendance.... there were even 2 on the (chocolate) wedding cake.....! Perhaps we ought to start swapping dragontales....

LTS

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Bagpuss
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 04:09 PM

Dragons: Only song I can think of is "Puff the Magic Dragon"!!!!

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 04:19 PM

Try Anne Lister - she's got a great song about them on a CD "Spreading Wings"

I have seen them on the wings of morning
On rosy clouds of dawn I've seen them fly
And I have seen them, their eyes dark with firelight
Their wings flashing sunlight across the sky
Don't talk to me of reality, don't talk to me of lies
If all you saw were clouds across the sky.

...and there are another four or so verses. (Anne had been reading Ursula Leguin, I believe.)

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 04:36 PM

Of course there is racism in the UK; far too much of it, though certainly less than in many other places, whatever Rude Filbert may think.  (Wouldn't it be better if people who think they are important enough to make offensive remarks were to have the courage to use their real names?)

Whatever the situation may have been in the past, there's hardly a country in the industrialised world that doesn't try to exclude economic migrants nowadays, and to be fair, the Chinese migrants who died at Dover wound up in that container lorry because they were misled and betrayed by the Chinese gangsters who took their money, promising them a better life in Europe.  The legal barriers around this island are no more stringent than those around most other EEC nations, and very little can be done about the geographical barriers.

I don't believe for a moment, incidentally, that immigration threatens English traditions; of course there will be a few examples of over-careful schools being silly about (religious) observances, but they are a small minority for which I don't think Government can be blamed.  As McGrath says, immigration has more usually resulted in an enrichment of tradition, though it tends to take a generation or two before immigrant groups integrate sufficiently for the population as a whole to become aware of, and to accept, their traditions; historically, the larger an immigrant group is, the longer it is likely to remain discrete and therefore sometimes perceived as a threat.  Attempting to hurry this process will inevitably result in misunderstandings, but I don't really see an alternative if children from cultural minorities are to get an appropriate education -i.e. one which takes due account of their various cultural backgrounds as well as those of the host nation- in State schools. Please note that when I speak of integration I am not talking about assimilation, although that is what has generally happened to immigrant communities here in the past.  There is, of course, nobody at all living in these islands who does not have immigrant ancestors; "the English" (though I dislike that blanket term, probably because it is so often used to criticise) are the most mongrel race in Europe, and all the better for it to my mind.  Postwar immigration has been on an unprecedented scale, which can be frightening for some, particularly those who are to an extent marginalised by poverty or lack of education; though I deplore the racism that can sometimes result from this fear, I nevertheless recognise the concerns -real or imagined- which give rise to it.  Understanding a problem is a necessary first step to dealing with it.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Filbert
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 04:41 PM

My name is Filbert, and I did not say the English were any more rascist than others.

Why are you so intolerant of others, Malcom?

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 05:15 PM

No more you did, in so many words; though you certainly seemed by the vehemence of your reply to be implying it. If Filbert is your real name, then I apologise for assuming that it was an alias.  As for intolerance; well, I am most certainly intolerant of rudeness.  If I were you, I should probably refrain from making any judgements about my tolerance -or lack of it- in other matters than that until you know something about me, and have learned how to spell my name.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Filbert
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 05:29 PM

"seemed","implying", "assuming".
If that is how you make "judgements", Malcolm, and you 'seem' to not tolerate typos either, well, what more could I possibly want to know about you?

When you assume, you make an ass out of u and me.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: JohnB
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 06:49 PM

Immigration should not, I hope, cause any great ill effects to English Traditions, as there are obviously many people on this thread alone trying to continue them. Emmigration causes them to spread further afield, as can be proven by the vast numbers of people practising the English Traditions, Morris Dancing, Singing Traditional songs, Drinking Beer and even in some cases Soccer (or subtitute sport of choice)Hooliganism, on this side of the Atlantic. Canada in my case.

The other direction of this thread seems to be Dragons, now please do not think me a dragon hater, I have even made some wrought iron ones to hold my daughters curtains up and we do have a few around the house. It is like this though the only song that I can think of that has not been mentioned yet is one with the Dragon on the losing side, "Sir Eglamore that Valiant Knight". Sorry JohnB

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 07:48 PM

Filbert:

You accuse me of making assumptions?  What about "You're not a very smart person, are you? "  If you have something constructive to contribute to this discussion, by all means do so; otherwise you might do better to remain silent.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Filbert
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 08:30 PM

Anyone who thinks the English, generally speaking, are a tolerant people, are not very smart I'm afraid.
That is not assumption, merely a statement of fact. And it all has a bearing on our tradition, Malcolm. And vice versa.

And unless you are Dragonfriend, I wasn't actually speaking to you.
The word 'bollocks' is not 'rude' either.
It's another gem of our language misconstrued down through the many years of our changing tradition. We should be proud that such progenies of our vast wealth of heritage has permeated the language so as to be incorporated into daily usage, by peoples so diversely spread across the globe, that very often common denominators such as language can give us all a certain equality and a starting point from which to develop stronger relationships and ties.
Is this not something to be proud of? Instant cognition, based on a common vocabulary?

One thing, however we especially are guilty of , and that is of being intolerant to criticism; our sense of self-assuredness and superiority instilled into our collective psyches by a lot of the very subjects that have been expounded upon in these threads.

You have proved my theory, Malcolm. I didn't particularly want to go this direction; the thread-drift was not of my making, but I'm afraid if we live in jam-jars, we don't see ourselves the way others see us.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 08:36 PM

Now this is the sort of dispute which is better conducted via Personal Messages, the Mudcat equivalent to "Come outside and say that again" in a pub.

But when people insist on being GUESTS, and refuse to go through the elemantary process involved in becoming a member, at no cost whatsoever, it's impossible to do it that way.

As for Dragons, here's a song by Chesterton, with a Dragon, and a very appropriate one for this thread as it happens. And here is the first verse for those who are loathe to push the blue clicky thing.

St George he was for England,
And before he killed the dragon
He drank a pint of English ale
Out of an English flagon.
For though he fast right readily
In hair-shirt or in mail,
It isn't safe to give him cakes
Unless you give him ale.

A bit unkind to Dragons, you mioght say. But it was trying to eat a maiden. Which is of course a traditional ritual for Dragons round these parts.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Filbert
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 09:14 PM

"But when people insist on being GUESTS, and refuse to go through the elemantary process involved in becoming a member,....."
That has to be one of the most uncharitable statements I have yet read.

This is a PUBLIC discussion forum, not a PRIVATE one. We come here to publicly discuss. What members chose to do with their time is entirely up to them, and I would not criticise them for doing so

So far we have intolerance. Don't start putting predjudice in there as well, or heaven knows where that might lead us!

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 09:27 PM

It's about as intolerant, friend GUESTfilbert, as suggesting that a vistor takes their hat and coat off and sits down if they are planning to stay.

If you clock in as a member you can use all kinds of useful little gizmos built into the system, like being able to send Peronal Messages to peope saying you think they are a pillock or the best thing since sliced bread. And it means other people can be sure that you're the same person, or at least the same computer that signed in with your name last time. Which we can't now.

Anybody could send a message now signing in as GUESTfilbert and say things you would find most irritating, and we'd all think it was you. Maybe someone already has, in which case I'm talking to both of you.

Intolerance indeed. If you want to keep your hat and coat and get hot and sticky and uncomfortable, noone is going to stop you, or eject you. Or your doppelgangers if there are any...

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 10:10 PM

Filbert:

It is indeed a public forum, which is why your earlier remark "And unless you are Dragonfriend, I wasn't actually speaking to you" is rather beside the point.  I should, I suppose, congratulate you on being the first person here in over a year to have succeeded in winding me up sufficiently to make me angry; don't take it as a compliment, though: your comments so far have not been as clever as you may suppose.  This thread, and in particular this part of it, has now become over-long; if you would like to continue the argument -which you instigated, whatever your intention may have been- I would suggest, as McGrath said, that we "take it outside".  If you don't feel comfortable about becoming a member and sending a personal message, you can email me at [e-mail] if you feel so inclined.  If you feel you have nothing further to say, that's fine too.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Filbert
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 10:15 PM

"It's about as intolerant, friend GUESTfilbert, as suggesting that a vistor takes their hat and coat off and sits down if they are planning to stay."

That is what one does in a Public 'House', isn't it?

As far as someone else using Filbert to sign in, I have no real problem with that. Filbert G, or whatever would be preferable to avoid confusion and the like, but other than that, I don't see any reason why he shouldn't. You see, I was not baptised with a GUEST, tag before my name, and calling someone 'GUESTfilbert' is as deliberate as it is bordering on the rascist.

"If you clock in as a member you can use all kinds of useful little gizmos built into the system, like being able to send Peronal Messages to peope saying you think they are a pillock or the best thing since sliced bread."

I have no desire to to do things like that, why should I? I could give you my E-mail address, if you would like, and you can tell me these things, if you want. It seems such a waste of time, though, as you don't seem to mind telling each other these things publicly. In fact, you make quite an art of it.

Taking that hypothesis to it's logical conclusion, the Forum would only serve as a reference point for all these Personal Messages. Or better still, perhaps, ALL correspondance would take place via E-mail and the Forum would then become redundant.
Remember also, McGrath of Harlow, that you were the one who suggested the idea of fighting. Why on earth would you suggest something like that? I certainly didn't 'imply' anything in my posts that I was ready to grab for a cyber base-ball bat. Stop searching for dragons where there are none.

But what has this got to do with English Tradition, apart from the obvious, of course?

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Filbert
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 10:37 PM

And Malcolm:
As far as "the argument -which you instigated, whatever your intention may have been-", I will also remind you that my remark was directed towards Tracey Dragonfriend who expressed an opinion which I thought was bollocks.

You then jumped on my back and started an argument with me. When you couldn't think of anything more to say, I am offered 'outside' for a 'cyber-fight' of some sort.

What a load of Cobblers!

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 10:50 PM

Grow up or put up,Filbert.  Or, alternatively, shut up.  That would do quite nicely.  If you want to continue the argument, it should be done elsewhere so that we don't waste other people's time and band-width.  I can think of plenty more to say, but this is not the place for it.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Viper
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 10:53 PM

Go for it Malcolm!

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Filbert
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 11:12 PM

What exactly is 'putting up', Malcolm?
Do you want to continue discussion on The English Tradition via E-mail?

Can you honestly say that your over-reaction, your desire to exclude me from this discussion is not due to your bruised ego; that preternatural defence mechanism we have when faced with things we don't like or agree with?

Part of the English tradition is the English psyche, Malcolm. And rolling up the sleeves while others hold your coat is proof that discussion has failed.

You are not a worthy opponent, Malcolm. You are letting your emotions take precedence, and exuding all the xenophobia that was seen and heard on the streets of Charleroi and Brussels.

Queensbury Rules on the cobblestones, then, is it?

Ah..... That's tradition for you!

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:13 AM

"Putting up", as you well know, is backing up your assertions with evidence, which you have not so far attempted.  I have no desire to exclude you from this discussion, but I would ask you to be a bit more constructive about it, if only so that you don't bore everybody else to death.  Your smugness does you no credit, but simply suggests that you are unable, or unwilling, to engage in informed debate.  If it comes to "worthy opponents", I certainly have no reason -so far- to see you as one.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Filbert
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 12:34 AM

Evidence for what, Malcolm?

What do I need to prove?

That English people generally are intolerant?
Or that people who think they are, are not very smart?

This thread was merrily Morris-Dancing into the sunset, and along comes somebody who drifts into how tolerant we all are.

You didn't seem to jump on anybody else's back for stating opposing views. Your initial argument with me encompassed everything from supposed rudeness, to not being a member, to making you angry for the first time in a year.
So what criteria are we talking about? I am discussing the English Tradition, Malcolm.
You are too.

You just don't realise it, that's all.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Tracey Dragonsfriend
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 02:37 AM

Well, I really do seem to have stirred something up here, don't I! I suppose I should have expected that, but I must admit to being surprised at the vehemence of Filbert's opinions. Then again, we have seen an upswing in less-than-civilised behaviour in certain places of late, as the strength of the moral and ethical codes and the lack of education appear to be somewhat in decline in some areas of the UK population. Perhaps this has some bearing on the matter?

My argument is based on the fact that the UK is not actually a very large land mass, and that we are having trouble coping with the recent unsolicited massive influx of people from all over the world. We have had periods of mass immigration before, when people did indeed come here in search of useful work. These people came from many backgrounds, and were described as "Negroes" and "Indians" at the time. (I have no idea what the relevant PC term would be today, and as they came from many different backgrounds I'd be here for some time specifying their original homes.) This period of immigration shocked many, but these people genuinely wanted to work here and be part of the UK, and as such succeeded. The initial shock-and-fear attitudes have changed since then, and our communities do indeed include people of many colours and cultures working and living together. Not perfectly everywhere, but I never said we were perfect - nobody is.
However, we are now somewhat overcrowded here in these little islands, and have an ongoing unemployment problem. We have little actual work to offer, particularly to the unskilled, (where employment is in especially short supply) so the opportunities to work here are limited. However, we do offer various social support benefits, and (it has to be said, although I know this will offend some) great opportunities for begging and petty theft.
Before you explode with rage, Filbert, this is not just an uninformed opinion, but is based on a recent discussion with some friends in the police forces, who have seen a remarkable upturn in persons arrested for these offences who are from such backgrounds. This is also something I have discussed in passing with people from other countries, many of whom have space and jobs on offer, but not such attractive social benefits - Norway and Denmark, for example. As a person with an analytical scientific background, this data says something to me about the motives of those arriving in the UK, who will travel through any number of other European countries to reach us.
The "English Tradition, whatever that is, is not in danger from mere immigration, but from the attitudes of those already here and those arriving. I care about keeping my heritage alive, as I believe that such things are what binds us together as a nation. It simply makes me unhappy when such things are displaced in favour of the cultural values of others - I feel that these things can exist together. I think that we will be in trouble as a nation if we try to simply replace our values with those of other cultures - we run the risk of having to individual culture or heritage at all, leaving people adrift alone in a sea of conflicting values. I believe that we can actually see this happening, in the drift of how people consider their actions - from "is it good for the country?" to "is it good for my county?" through "is it good for my family?", all the way down to "is it good for me?". If one doesn't feel that you belong to a nation, by sharing it's values and cultures, one feels no drive to act for it's benefit. I think that we can actually see this, in the changing attitudes to such simple things as the cleanliness of our streets and other public places - I do not drop litter, gum or food un the street, I wouldn't dream of spitting on the floor, and I always clear up after myself in a fast-food restaurant... but I am now in the minority in some places. A simple thing, but quite revealing, I think.

By the way, Filbert, I'm not quite sure that I fit your description of "not very smart" terribly well. I am a member of Mensa with an IQ of approximately 165. I have 7 O-levels, 3 A-levels, and a BSc in Mathematics & Physics. I am currently the European Pre-sales & Post-sales Consultant & Trainer for a multinational software house providing PC-based enhancement packages for improving AS/400 and Mainframe interfaces. I travel Europe and the world extensively in the course of this job, which gives me many opportunites to meet interesting people of many countries. What level of intelligence, education and experience were you looking for in a member of this discussion group?
I am also well aware of the etymological background of "bollocks", as the origin of words of all kinds haoppens to be a hobby of mine. It's a recent derivitive of "ballocks", which is an extremely old word, being in common usage until around 1840, but considered a vulgarism since then.

Also, my thanks to everyone who contributed re dragons - I very much appreciate your input! I'll try to snatch a minute to check out your links, etc, leter today. I must dash now - I should really be checking my work email before a meeting today, not gabbing away here!

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Filbert
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 03:24 AM

'Smartness', Tracey, has nothing to do with Mensa and how priviliged you might feel. Many 'intelligent' people, whilst grasping the intimate workings of Quantum Physics, fail to keep their feet on the ground long enough to look at the world around them and see how it operates.

However, had you a PhD in Sociology, you might spot it, as your work would bring you closer to the sentiment of the grass roots, where all this 'tradition' lives, or gets overwhelmed in the rivers of blood.

I have said before that assumption is a bad thing. And what may be 'considered' a vulgarism in one person's terminology, might not necessarily be so. To 'consider' anything in that way, is to generalise to the same degree as 'considering' that English people are more or less, tolerant.

That is basically my only premise, and I would never have thought about it had you not made a point of making it relevant to this discussion.

When one 'vehemently' purports a popular theory, and another 'vehemently' expresses the unpopular, opposing theory, why is it that the dissenter is always portrayed to be the trouble-maker, with all sorts of accusations levelled at him?
But we have a tendency to do that. It's part of our tradition

Why do some people strive to beat the dissenter into submission, by sufficiently muddying up the waters so, so that they are forced into defending other corners not specifically connected to the matter at hand?

At any other time, perhaps, giving Malcolm a 'Glasgow Kiss' might have been enjoyable, perhaps even appropriate.
But since I don't believe in such activities as a reasonable way to continue discussions, the question would never have been brought up by me either.

I think when people 'over defend' their viewpoint, I can't help but suspect a little of "Methinks thou dost protest too much" (sic)

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Terry K
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 04:19 AM

Well said Tracey (I mean about the immigration issue - I won't enter the petty little squabble that someone seems to want to perpetuate) - I have great concerns over the real motivation of many of the people who want to live here. It would be nice to believe that they only want to come to do honest jobs of work and to integrate with our richly diversified society, but I don't have the necessary rose tinted glasses.

My big concern over the Dover 58 is that no matter what their long-term intentions, the very first thing they planned to do in England was to break the law. Not a good start in my book. And if they didn't understand that to be smuggled in without papers was illegal, do we really believe they would readily integrate into a law-abiding society?

Surely, anyone expecting to come here to benefit from the advantages that this country has built over the centuries at least owes us the courtesy of letting us see whether they are likely to be suitable. Judging by past experience, the test is not very difficult to pass.

Terry

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: sledge
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 05:11 AM

A MORE POSITIVE VIEW>

I recently helped out at a villiage fete at Buriton in the south of England. Folk music was played by our little band and appreciated, but the highlights were the local school children engaging in both Morris and Maypole dances. Coupled with the wonderful weather and very green location it made you realise what a good place England CAN be.

So stop bickering and dust off your Baldricks.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 06:13 AM

"This overcrowded little island" - there are more people emigrating every year than immigrating, so that really doesn't stand up. And your man Tony Blair was on TV last night taking pride in the fact that unemployment here is now lower than in the rest of Europe.

The papers have been trying to selll us the idea that the 58 people who died were some kind of anonymous mass of humanity being shipped around from continent to continent like so much cattle. They didn't say "bunch of coolies", but that was the underlying message.

Then we saw the film of them hanging around in in Belgium, a bunch of ordinary kids, like any bunch of sixth-formers on a school trip abroad, a bit tired, some of them bored, some excited. Most of the way from China they'd probably come by plane and train and bus. For the final trip into England, with the frontiers sealed so tight, they took the risk of allowinmg themselves to be smuggled in by a container lorry, and it turned out disastrous.

Somebody advised them badly, crimninally so, and they died as a result. But the blame doesn't just lie on imcompetant travel agents. And w've all known those in our time. The fact that these travel agents were acting outside the law doesn't make them that all that different from the ones that turn up on the TV consumer programmes after booking holiday makers into hotels that haven't been finished. But they aren't the only ones to blame - the people who nailed the frontiers shut have something to answer for.

And as for the things about England that have got worse. Things like the litter in the streets and the yobs and the football hooligans and the surly scowls and the unfriendliness that hits you like a blow when you come back from Ireland for example - all that - that's not the doing of the newcomers, it's the native English, for all kinds of reasons noone has satisfactorily explained, though I think the politics and economics of the 80s and 90s has a lot to do with it.

There are so many great things about the native English way of doing things - there is a tolerance and an odd sense of humour, and a disinclination to take themselves too seriously and an instinctive evasion of authority, and a willingness to cooperate. Like the little girl in the nursery rhyme "when they're good they're very very good - and when they're bad they're horrid". And you can say the same of the people of every country, but different places have different ways of being good and of being horrid, and maybe mix the two sides in different proportions.

(And Filbert, get off your high horse. Of course in a pub, I'd offer a stranger in a conversation a seat, and show him where the coat hooks were. And the point about names isn't that there's anything special about your name and of course anyone could use a variation of it without causing a problem. But as it stands there's nothing to stop anybody using exactly the same name, and saying things that would make you look a right eejit. And that kind of thing has happened here before. If you want to have a discussion about why you might not want to get rid of the GUEST tag on your name and so forth, start another thread for God's sake. In this one it's an irrelevant distraction.)

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Ringer
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 08:16 AM

But he does look a right eejit already.

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 07:16 PM

How about we go away and let the main antagonists fight it out over this one?

How about part 3.....

LTS

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Snuffy
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 05:32 AM

There already is a Part III - what about part IV?

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Tracey Dragonsfriend
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 12:02 PM

That's it for me - I'm away (sent off for business) for a fortnight now, so will be unavailable for further debate on this one....

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 12:44 PM

MY FEELING IS CLEAR AS BELL THAT IS RINGING... REVEALING TO ME, NOW TO YOU, THAT THE STINGING... ALLOWS ME TO SAY THAT "TO ME YOU ARE BRINGING"... THE TACIT ASSUMPTION THAT TRACEY IS SINGING...

I CARE NOT FOR POLITICS WHEN IT COMES BETWEEN FRIENDS... FOR IT PLAYS US FOR FOOLS AND WE WILLINGLY BEND... SO CONTORTED THE REASONING, AND LOST IN THE ROLES... WITH US AGAINST US, SHOULD TROLLS PAY THEIR TOLLS?...

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: GUEST,Barfy
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 01:17 PM

Shambles #2

Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
From: Tracey Dragonsfriend
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 01:35 PM

Thomas - very good! A wand'ring minstrel, thou..