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U571: what is it about the Yanks?
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Subject: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: Steve Parkes Date: 12 Jun 00 - 03:50 AM I know a lot of brave men and women went through a great deal of pain and suffering and more in the Second world War, and helped to make sure the Good Guys won; which might not have happened if they hadn't. Free people in Europe are aware of the the debt we owe to everyone, whichever side of the Pond, civilian or service. What is starting to get up the noses of many of us is this: America has plenty of thunder of its own - why do your movie makers feel obliged to steal ours? We know who captured the German Navy's Enigma codes, but I suspect a lot of people over there don't. Ignorancemay be forgivable, but willful misinformation isn't. What's going to be next? How the US Mercantile Marine rescued the American troops from Dunkirk? How the USAF saved the day in the Battle of Britain? |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: sledge Date: 12 Jun 00 - 03:56 AM AS an Ex-matelot, to see the heroism of the crew of HMS Petard Shanghaied in such a shallow way really "grips my shit" as we used to say, but what does Hollywood care if it turns a Buck at the end of the day. BASTARDS. Nuff said. |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: Ringer Date: 12 Jun 00 - 05:00 AM Surely, the point is that it's a good yarn. If it's not absolutely correct historically, does it matter? |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: The Shambles Date: 12 Jun 00 - 06:00 AM My thanks to all those that perished or suffered in that conflict, to ensure that we all had the freedom to make and watch films about it. Whatever part of the world they came from. |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 12 Jun 00 - 06:56 AM Steve'll be too young to remember that great film epic where Errol Flynn won the Burma Campaign single-handed! WE get our own back by supplying classical actors to play Hollywood villains so they can afford to come back here and take low-paid stage roles! RtS :oD |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: GUEST,Aldus Date: 12 Jun 00 - 07:22 AM Actually we are making a film about how we won the American Revoloution and the hero is Benedict Arnold...what do you think Bald Eagle, accuracy be damned. I too find this film an offence...But I suppose that a country who has manufactured huge chunks of its own history, sees nothing wrong with stealing someone elses. |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: sophocleese Date: 12 Jun 00 - 08:22 AM All of the above being said its also an lousy movie, even if Harvey Keitel is in it. "Start the engines! Play the music!" |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: A Wandering Minstrel Date: 12 Jun 00 - 08:29 AM This movie is just total pants. It's an insult to HMS Bulldog and HMS Amethyst who actually did capture the U571 and the objective was for Lt Balme to get the "offizier" code books. The british already had two machines. The german crew were taken off and interned for the period and the u-boat was then scuttled. nobody stayed aboard or tried to sail it away. What makes it even worse is that until about 1944 the US high command regularly refused to believe the intelligence that Bletchley was sending them from Enigma sources!!! The next thing you know some Yank will have invented the Spitfire! |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 12 Jun 00 - 08:47 AM At least at the end of the movie credit was given to the Royal Navy. One must not forget that it was the bravery of many nations that ultimately brought about the defeat of the Nazis. In 1938 a brave Polish mechanic was responsible for bringing the exsistance of the Enigma/Ultra machine to "friendly" intelligence services. Books I recommend to anyone interested in reading about this subject are: The Ultra Secret by F.W. Winterbottom CBE. A Man Called Interpid by William Stevenson A History of British Secret Service by Richard Deacon
Our Comradeship |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: sledge Date: 12 Jun 00 - 09:06 AM The facts: The code books from U110 captured 9.5.41 by HMS Bulldog and Hms Aubretia. The code books and settings from U559 captured 30.10.42 by HMS Petard, two men drowned when the boat suddenly sank before they could get clear. |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: kendall Date: 12 Jun 00 - 09:31 AM Hollywood has never been concerned with the truth. We Yanks have learned to live with it, but, it still fries my ass to see them going this far. I'm an historian, and, I dont care who is doing it...a lie is a god damn lie..period. I have vowed to not watch this piece of trash. My own apologies to the Brits, for what they are worth. (Please dont burn the White House again, OK?) |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: GUEST,Dave Date: 12 Jun 00 - 09:47 AM The movie U571 not withstanding, the US Navy did capture the U505, including her codebooks, and sail her to an allied port. She is currently on exhibit at a museum in Chicago, IL. The wirship involved, a pocket carrier under the command of Rear Admiral Dan Gallery, came upon the U505 while she was recharging her batteries on the surface, if memory serves. After a brief surface battle, the German crew set scuttling charges and surrendered, abandoning their boat to her fates. A specially detailed and trained crew boarded her, closed seacocks, defused the scuttling charges, "rescued" her code books and took her as a prize. I'm not sure if she repaired to a US port or one in Bermuda, but she ended up as an exhibit in Chicago. This story originally was published in Colliers, a now defunct US magazine, and subsequently retold in one of Gallery's autobiographical novels. Dave |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: Gary T Date: 12 Jun 00 - 10:00 AM Echoing Kendall, Hollywood routinely corrupts history, and we've grown largely inured to it, though it often gets mentioned in passing in film reviews. Of course they have their reasons. Those reasons seem to be essentially based on trying to make a ton of money and assuming that the average filmgoer has the intelligence of a swamp turtle. Unfortunately, the occasional well-crafted, thoughtful, intelligent film usually goes down in flames at the box office, even if it is highly praised by both the critics and the viewers. Same thing happens in our network TV programming. (Sigh) That's Show Business! |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: BanjoRay Date: 12 Jun 00 - 10:10 AM You'll find the story of the U505 here . I don't know the plot of U571, so I don't know whether this bears any relation to it. Cheers Ray |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: Gervase Date: 12 Jun 00 - 10:16 AM As a Brit, Could I offer this letter received (and, thankfully published) by my own newspaper today, which should make us all think a little harder before grabbing the glory for anything... "How could the horrid Americans steal all the credit for Enigma?" cried all the critics, including Alexander Walker, about the film U-571 (Trojan Horse under water, 1 June). Easy - they just followed the example of the British who have been stealing Polish thunder since the war. Marian Rejewski and his team of cryptologists in the Polish Government Cypher Office first broke the Enigma code in 1938, having worked on it since 1932. In 1939, when they realised Poland was about to fall, the Poles handed over an Enigma machine they had built, together with all their research, calculations and findings, to a General Stewart Menzies, on 16 August at Victoria Station. The British staff hurriedly recruited for Blechley Park then went on to break the successive refinements that the Germans introduced throughout the war. At its height there were 7000 staff employed at Bletchley Park. Along with Alan Turing, named as one of the two most important mathematicians employed there, was Gordon Welchman, whose life was nothte stuff that TV films are made of and therefore is also doomed to be unacknowledged. The machine and code book captured by the British Navy (subject of the Hollywood film) helped them crack the variant used by the German Navy. Other countries also worked on Enigma variations, including the Americans who tackled and cracked the Japanese version PURPLE - which they naturally claim was the most complex of all and the most difficult to crack. The heroes of Enigma are many and international but the man who first broke Enigma was a Pole. Perhaps now that we all know how it feels to have thunder stolen, future English writers and journalists will give credit where credit is due. Ewa Lipniacka, Polish Library, Polish Social and Cultural Centre, King Street, W6. |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 12 Jun 00 - 11:18 AM Gervase, makes a good point mates. Poland deserves a big hand of applause for its contribution to the WWII effort. Ever read about the Polish submarine Sokol? A very distinguished war service record. Yours,(give credit where credit is due) Aye. Dave |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: paddymac Date: 12 Jun 00 - 11:37 AM I think I can hear the ship's bells in the background, thus making this a musical thread. But that aside, it represents one of the things I cherish about Mudcat - the opportunity to learn, even if in what some might consider an obtuse fashion. Thanks to all! |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: Rick Fielding Date: 12 Jun 00 - 11:45 AM Canadians have been looking for years with jaundiced eyes at the way history has been re-written for the movies. In the flicks, the Yanks even won the War of 1812! And that takes some SERIOUS messing with reality. Perhaps the funniest fantasies were those "Mountie" movies with jolly Canuck law enforcement guys (with American accents) patrotically wearing their neon-red dress uniforms to track down evil French-Canadian trappers with names like Jaques Le Rubberboot! About 15 years ago in a truly bizarre situation, American producers refused to believe that "Goldrush Era" Mounties didn't carry guns (as their US counterparts did), and forced the Canadians to "pack heat" for "viewer authenticity" before they'd make a TV series about maintaining law and order up North. I know this sort of thing really angers some, but I'm afraid that the only folks who know "what really happened" in wars, battles, etc. are the ones still capable of absorbing the printed page selectively. You (for the most part) ain't gonna learn it from the movies. Heck, in a documentary on WW2 flying aces a few years ago, the filmaker managed to ignore completely BILLY BISHOP, of all people. It's our fault really. If Bishop had been a Yank from Oshkosh Wisc. (or someplace like that) they'd have statues of him all over the country. Here in Canada, we often seem embarassed to have heroes. I doubt one school kid in a hundred would know his name. Rick |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: Áine Date: 12 Jun 00 - 11:51 AM Frankly, I think casting aspersions on the population of an entire country because of the actions of an extremely small group of people in a particular industry is extremely small-minded and stupid. My advice is to remove your undergarments and give them a good shake to eliminate whatever bunching has occured therein. Replace said undergarments on your person and go and seek enlightenment and fulfillment of a positive nature. -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: AndyG Date: 12 Jun 00 - 12:07 PM I think I can fairly say I've yet to read an account of Enigma/BP/Ultra that doesn't give full credit to the Polish effort prior to the opening of WWII.
The Poles handed all they knew of the German forces version of the Enigma machine-encipherment system to the British. This was not complete information but it was all they knew. They also provided the concept for the bombe which Alan Turing and others went on to build.
The U571 storyline is a compilation of many events from the Battle of the Atlantic which enabled the intelligence service to read Naval enigma. (The Kriegsmarine having developed a particularly complex form of enigma machine). The struggle against the U-Boats ultimately determined when (if) the invasion of Europe could occur.
The U571 movie however, unlike any book I've read, appears to give no credit to either Britain OR Poland for their roles, and claims not only the defeat of Enigma but the provision of Ultra for the USA. If this is true it is playing fast and loose with the truth. (to say the least).
This is the important bit:
AndyG
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: Steve Parkes Date: 12 Jun 00 - 12:15 PM Áine, if you're talking to me, you could try reading what I actually wrote! The Poles - I thought everyone knew that they made thae whole thing possible? Without them there would have been no Station X at Bletchley Park and the war might have been over before Pearl Harbor. I've been to Bletchley Park: there's a room dedicated to their efforts in cracking Enigma by hand, and bringing their machine and their expertise to Britain. If you go along you'll probably meet some of the people who worked there ithe war ... don't leave it too long, there aren't so many left now. Have a look here, and here. Steve |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: DougR Date: 12 Jun 00 - 12:27 PM Aine, I can't disagree at all with your summation of most of the messages above yours. I do take friendly issue with Bald Eagle, however. I saw the film in question and personally thought it was a lousy film. It had every submarine movie cliche in it in the book Having some familiarity with the history of the Enigma project, however, I was particularly disgusted that the film made it appear (even though there were explanatory statements in the rolling credits) that the U. S. solved the Enigma problem all by its lonesome. I do think it is important that films depict history as it was. After all, many young people today probably rely much more on movies to supply them history, than the public schools. Since a great deal of the history taught in the school today is revisionist history (musn't offend anyone), I'm not sure which is the best teaching method of the two. Thank you, Guest Dave, for the information you supplied ont the U505. I was not aware of that. Suppose the screenwriters based their screenplay on that? Even so, I still thought it was a lousy movie. DougR |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: GUEST,Mbo_at_ECU Date: 12 Jun 00 - 12:32 PM "History is a set of lies agreed upon." --Napoleon Bonaparte |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: sophocleese Date: 12 Jun 00 - 12:34 PM Yeah, but who agrees on them? Historians, winners or entertainment moguls? DougR was right when he said it isa lousy movie, it is. I saw it with my two brothers and sister in law, we represented a little over 50% of the audience. We very quickly started gentle heckling at every cliche. Its the best way to see it. |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: SeanM Date: 12 Jun 00 - 12:48 PM If it's any consolation to all, the director caught a fair amount of heat from critics, historians and newspapers in Los Angeles (which contains Hollywood, much to the world's surprise). That, and the History Channel made much out of running several specials about the "REAL story of U-571", with interviews of as many ULTRA staff as were able to be interviewed and as many other sources as were found. Somewhere, it all balances out... those who would ever have appreciated the true story have doubtless used the very flawed movie as a springboard to learning the whole story, and those who wouldn't... well... it gave them something to watch before the next Pokemon movie comes out. M |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 12 Jun 00 - 12:49 PM AndyG, The Enigma machine, and the staff made up Ultra; a combination of the Government Code and Cipher School, Bletchley Park (GCCS,Golf Cheese and Chess Society)consisting of cryptographers, communicators, translators,and mathematicians, all placed under the "Umbrella title of "Ultra" (short form of Ultra Secret)I used the combination Enigma/Ultra only to interest readers who may have associated the two names. Yours, Aye. Dave (dont forget to read about the Polish submarines Wilk, Dzik and Orzel) |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: Áine Date: 12 Jun 00 - 01:01 PM sophocleese and SeanM -- Exactly! It ain't History, folks; it's just a Movie... And Steve -- Sorry, but you deserved my admittedly curmudgeonly comment, since you did use the term "what is it about the Yanks?" in your thread title. If you want historical accuracy, watch documentaries; although, many of those are made from a propagandist point of view, too. I don't blame you at all for getting your hackles raised by inaccuracy. However, to even consider that an industry whose entire purpose is to provide entertaining fantasy should give an owl's hoot whether the "facts" are right, is not putting your little grey cells to their best use. Providing accurate information to those people you think would be interested (as several folks here are), is an admirable way to make the point to which I believe you were aspiring. -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: sophocleese Date: 12 Jun 00 - 01:11 PM Now Aine its just a thread discussing the inaccuracies in a movie for god's sake. No need to get your knickers in a twist. |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: Áine Date: 12 Jun 00 - 01:16 PM soph -- I'm shaking 'em out with one hand and typing this response with the other! No bunchies here! *BG* -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: NH Dave Date: 12 Jun 00 - 01:24 PM Doing a quick search fro the U-505 reveals that there were several German submarines captured (including the U-570), and a few brought to Allied ports. Most of these captures took place towards the end of the war where little intelligence could be gained from their codes. As has been mentioned the British at Bletchley Park had taken material developed by the Polish and reverse engineered this and captured commercial Enigma machines to develope crypto machines similar to those in use by the German High Command. Similarly, people at MIT working from this material subsequently broke many but not all of the Japanese military codes, and produced crypto machines to continue reading these messages. One product of this effort was the interception and downing of the aircraft carrying Japanese Admiral Yamamoto over the island of Bougainville, by US Army Air Corps fighters. While this code breaking and message interception did not win the war by itself, it gave the Allies suitable insight into the Axis' thinking and plans, which made the prosecution of the war easier. This was just ONE of many counter-intelligence efforts that speeded the close of the war. Another, cataloged in the novel, "The Man Who Knew Too Much", involved allowing a corpse, suitably equipped with disinformation about the Allies proposed landings across the channel into the north of France, to wash ashore onto the shores of "neutral" Spane. This effort, along with a phantom army headed by General Patton in central England, kept several Panzer divisions tied up while we attacked at Normandy, on D-Day. While D-Day wasn't easy, not having to fight through these units made the task just a bit more doable. |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: catspaw49 Date: 12 Jun 00 - 01:25 PM There has been a growing, if not completely enveloping, tendency to learn history from the movies. As Rick stated, the written word is rapidly becoming a thing of the past (History I guess). The History Channel has a series on Hollywood and History which shows a movie along with interviews of historians or other folks (who were there) discussing the movie versus the reality with Sander Vanocur. Its quite good. It would be nice to think that seeing a movie would trigger an active interest in learning more about a subject, like listening to PPM might trigger an interest in folk music and make the listener want to learn more. Sadly, this is not always the case in either historical events or folk music. A few years ago, the producers of an excellent 6 part series which aired here on Public Broadcasting, took an awful lot of flak from the "people who were there." It seemed that the major objection was that the book's author had written a fictionalized account and the producers of the series had added even more. It wasn't the fiction part that was troubling, but many objected to ALL these things taking place within ONE GROUP of people. All the incidents and accounts were realistic and DID happen, but the problem seemed to be that folks objected to all this happening within a single group. Well, Okay...that was correct. But the situation that applies to history is that, in point of fact, it can be rather dull, to put it mildly. At least this series portrayed accurately real events and real composites of characters that everybody could relate to. The series was "Piece of Cake" and followed an RAF squadron from 1939 through the Battle of Britain. I have read every situation that took place in the series somewhere and the characterizations were superb. So it wasn't accurate as the squadron didn't really exist. I think for many though, it at least gave them a depiction of what actually did go on. Is that bad? I have seen several movies which I think fit that category. Nothing beats the written word and its a shame we don't have more accurate portrayals in the movies of the Billy Bishops or Robert Stanford Tucks. In truth we don't have enough written words either. Its not only war movies certainly. "Mississippi Burning" was far from completely accurate, but it did raise an awareness. "JFK" was totally bizarre. Stone may have left out a couple of theories but not many. The real problem with all of the movies is the unfortunately growing tendency to accept them as history and not entertainment. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: Bert Date: 12 Jun 00 - 01:45 PM Áine, yes it's 'only a movie'. But unfortunately the movies and TV are all that most foreigners see of America. And if the movie is a load of crap then that's what they'll think of America. There are so many 'True' stories of American heroes and achievments; why couldn't they have chosen one of those. Of the American contributions to WWII, one of the most overlooked is the contribution of supplies and materials. Not front line heroic stuff, but without it the war would not have been won so quickly. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: kendall Date: 12 Jun 00 - 02:36 PM Rick..wuddayou mean, we think we won the War of 1812? Do you have another version? |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: Sapper_RE Date: 12 Jun 00 - 02:52 PM Was "The Man Who Knew Too Much" the US title of "The Man Who Never Was"?? If so, it had nothing to do with Overlord. It was about fooling the Germans into thinking the allies planned to invade Greece instead of Scicily. It worked. Sapper |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 12 Jun 00 - 02:53 PM Anyone seen the movie "The Hunley"? (Civil War Submarine) really good show. Regretfully it was lost in the overall scheme of things when awards were handed out. My opinion being, it was well presented and fairly factual. Yours, (loves his movies)Aye. Dave |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: catspaw49 Date: 12 Jun 00 - 03:08 PM Hi Dave.....That's a good example, "The Hunley." It was as imperfect as "Mississippi Burning" but without the subplots, a lot of folks would have missed the story entirely. Some may have gone on and read more with any luck. This isn't to say that the absolute truth is boring, but it don't play in Peoria. I have such mixed emotions on these movies. What's better? I dunno......I like the written word, but at times it too is open to question obviously. Taking Rick's example of Billy Bishop, I would love to see even a dramatized account of the man as long as the producer/director accurately portrayed the life as it related to history and not that one that was made about him by a Canadian no less. I can't remember the title, but it really tromped all over the deeds and reputation of a great man. All that one did was make the unwashed aware of Bishop. It did nothing but revise history otherwise and frankly perhaps, made many think less of him. Spaw Spaw |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: Peter T. Date: 12 Jun 00 - 03:19 PM Just to add two cents: the Polish air force has never received the credit from anyone it was due for its unbelievable heroism during World War II. My father's colleagues (all heavily decorated airmen from Canada and Britain, and all now dead save one (my dad!)) used to shake their heads in awe whenever they spoke of the Poles and their desperate exploits. They had no fear, and only faint hope, which was cruelly betrayed. Because of the internal politics after the war, when Poland was taken over (yet again) it was all poisoned and wrecked. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: Greg F. Date: 12 Jun 00 - 03:46 PM If it was just Hollywood, it would be bad enough. Have been in the 'history biz' for a quite a while, and if you REALLY want to get depressed and/or PO'd, pick up a copy of F. Fitzgerald's _America Revised_ or Loewen's _Lies my Teacher Told Me_ or _Lies Across America_. U.S. history texts have a good percentage of fantasy and wishful thinking, and what is taught as World History is in many cases absolute crap. And look out for the "History [sic.]Channel"- its mostly hollywood, too. Why this does not seem to bother more people I dunno- as others have said , above, the REAL story is exciting & gripping enough. Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: Gary T Date: 12 Jun 00 - 04:00 PM Kendall, I asked myself the same question--"what do you mean we THINK we won the war of 1812?". I skimmed a U.S. Army article here and became aware that a big part of the war was our invading Canada, where we were essentially repulsed. We did kick butt with our Navy, and I believe we got most of what we wanted in the settlement (Treaty of Ghent, I believe). But what I remember from school is we won the Battle of New Orleans, and we got the British to stop doing objectionable things on the seas. I didn't remember getting thrashed by the Canadians. I think this is what Rick had in mind. |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: Gary T Date: 12 Jun 00 - 04:02 PM I must have goofed up the link. The word "here" was supposed to take you to: http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/amh/amh-06.htm. One more try click here. |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: catspaw49 Date: 12 Jun 00 - 04:13 PM Greg......We got into the aspect you refer to somewhere else recently although I don't recall what thread. You're quite right, but then again, all history is philosophy, colored by the bias, small or large but always present, of the author. I like ol' Ambrose Bierce, a good Ohio boy, who defined history in his "Devil's Dictionary:" HISTORY...An account, mostly false, of events, mostly unimportant, brought about by rulers, mostly knaves, and soldiers, mostly fools. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: Rick Fielding Date: 12 Jun 00 - 04:45 PM Yup Gary. Being an unpatriotric, non-religious, objective cynic, one of the things that I've enjoyed immensely on the "Net" is checking out historical events from different perspectives...without caring "who won or who lost". It's fascinating. The truth seems to fall squarely between any two opposing accounts. A few examples: The Canadian mega-sports team owner who, upon the outbreak of WW2 rushed off to fight Hitler (with several of his players in tow.) His views (well documented) were perhaps even MORE heinous than Adolph's....but I guess when you're really rich, a good fight can be fun. Returning home a hero, he continued to spew anti-Jewish, anti-black crap, to a city happy to hear it. Two nights ago defenseman Scot Stevens won the trophy named in his honour (the Conn Smythe trophy). This is a guy I'm supposed to admire? Well if I'd only read the sports books provided by my schools, I'd have thought he was the greatest guy in the world. For some bizarre reason I started reading the "alternative press" by my teens, and as I say...they stretch it as well, the middle ground's usually right. But ya GOTTA check out the "other grounds" to find that middle one. I think quite a few here at Mudcat do, which is why I stay interested. Rick |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: kendall Date: 12 Jun 00 - 06:07 PM It's true that our invasion of Canada was a fiasco, but, it was never meant to be a major objective anyway. It was to divert and stretch the British forces, which it did. It was not great victory, but, it stopped the English from pressing American sailors. And, finally, it was the Brits who sued for peace in the end. |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: Mbo Date: 12 Jun 00 - 06:41 PM Not to mention, Rick, that Scott Stevens is a dirty jerk himself. Anyone who relies on constant deliberate vicious violence really ticks me off. I wish someone from Dallas woulda rammed a hockey stick up his bunghole. --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: Áine Date: 12 Jun 00 - 06:52 PM We hear your call, oh Mbo -- (and now, for the terrible inside "hockey" joke...) Eddie ... Eddie ... Eddie ... Eddie ... Eddie ... -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: Mbo Date: 12 Jun 00 - 07:03 PM I got it Aine! Scott Stevens signature move is bending down low in front of someone, so when they skate into him, he hits them at the knees, thus knocking them off their feet. I once heard that if this manuever is performed right, you can break the other players knees. Incidentally the move is called "The Submarine." See how it all fits together? Now all we need is a song... --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: Clinton Hammond2 Date: 12 Jun 00 - 07:15 PM To get back to The U571 topic... And to keep Rick and I from ending up back-to-back against ya here!! LOL!!! I was having this discussion recently with a good mate who said something rather profound, or I think it is anyway... "Some Americans are so concerned with proving that they are the best, they are willing to steal the truth from thier children"
The whole thing make me thing of Big Brother, and the "Who controls the past, controls the future" idea... (besides, we all know it's "He who controls the spice, controls the universe!! LOL!) Especially, as was said above, when these MOVIES, intended to be purely entertainment, end up being read as historical fact...
Rick touches on the best solution... read history... read everybodys account of the event in question, and remember they are ALL biased, all inaccurate in some way or other... there is no such thing as total objectivness... Especially when dealing with ideals, or motivations... But you'd think someone could at least get the basic FACTS down eh!! LOL!!! {~` |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: kendall Date: 12 Jun 00 - 07:22 PM Dont forget our penchant for self examination, and sometimes self criticism. |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: Jon Freeman Date: 12 Jun 00 - 07:29 PM I have not read every post in this thread so apologies if I am duplicating things that have been said. Holywood are into making money and don't care less about facts but to me, the scarey part is people believe the Hollywood versions. IMO, this gets even worse, I have met people who are more concerned over the fate of a character in a soap than their own neighbours. Worse still, I have a freind who's daugther starred in what was a leading UK COMEDY. I believe that she had people sit her down and tell her what was wrong with her tv relationship. Question: is Hollywood guilty of exploiting peoples preference towards fiction rather than reality, or should the people who believe the nonsense get in touch with reality? Jon |
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Subject: RE: U571: what is it about the Yanks? From: Greg F. Date: 12 Jun 00 - 07:33 PM Spaw- Whoops! Didn't realize this had been dealt with elsewhere. While you're right to the degree that there is always some personal bias in "Cynic, n.: a blackguard whose faulty vision sees I'm not talking about "bias", but great big obvious, thumping, |
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