Subject: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: Grab Date: 21 Jun 00 - 07:20 AM There's a shanty called 'Chicken on a Raft' (and no, it's not 'Chicken in a Bucket', b4 anyone comes up with that :-) which we're learning. If there's any shantymen around, could you give me a hand, please? Does anyone know what the meanings of some of the bits in it are? I've a feeling there's typos in the Digitrad version (line 3 of the chorus is written down as "Dabtoes forward and the dustman aft", which I think should be "last man" instead of "dustman"). But what are "dabtoes"? Recording of the Young Tradition singing it sounds more like "dabtails", but that doesn't make any more sense, unless it's the name of a particular bit of rigging. And what is a "chicken on a raft" in the first place (and why's it such a terrible sight on a Monday morning)? "Pusser's shower" I understand - the "pusser" being the purser, who's notoriously tight-fisted. Thanks to anyone who can get any more info on this. Grab. |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: kendall Date: 21 Jun 00 - 07:28 AM I always thought chicken on a raft was a poached egg on toast? |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: Bat Goddess Date: 21 Jun 00 - 07:43 AM Nope, those aren't typos. "Chicken on a Raft" was written by Cyril Tawney, Brit sub-mariner and British Navy seamusic scholar and collector (see his book _Grey Funnel Lines_). "Dabtoes" and "dustmen" are Navy colloquialisms for various clean-up jobs. (And unfortunately, I'm not really awake yet so I can't give you the exact job titles.) The dabtoes, I think, are swabbing the deck and the dustmen throwing trash off the aft. Chicken on a raft is poached eggs on toast. Go to the source. Most of Tawney's songs are full of Brit Navy (the real "Grey Funnel Line") jargon. Bat Goddess |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: AndyG Date: 21 Jun 00 - 08:20 AM Chicken on a Raft = Fried Egg on Toast Jimmy = Jimmy-the-One = 1st lieutenant Comic Cuts = Orders (possibly QR&AI ?), (originally WWI British Army jargon for Divisional Orders) Dabtoes = seamen (not specialist ratings) Dustmen = Engine Room specialist ratings (originally stokers) middle, forenoon = watches Whalin' crew = Whaler's Crew / Whaler = Ship's boat pusser = purser
(Donny-B I'm not sure about)
AndyG |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: Grab Date: 21 Jun 00 - 08:29 AM Thanks for the help Bat Goddess, that's cleared that up! Didn't realise it was such a recent song (reference to "pulling on a whaling crew" made me think it was older). Still, I guess if it's written in a 'traditional' style then it'll sound that way regardless. Spose I'll have to dig out some books about Navy lingo if I'm going to do any more like that. A quick search on Google for Cyril Tawny comes up with a fair selection of books and CDs. Cheers again. Grab.
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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: Grab Date: 21 Jun 00 - 08:32 AM Many thanks AndyG, too. Grab. |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: Willie-O Date: 21 Jun 00 - 08:44 AM And a chicken on a raft on a Monday morning is a terrible sight to see because, whether poached or fried, it is _not_ what your hangover wants to see--as you start a new week in your tin can abode. Another Royal Navy delicacy that might not be fit for sore eyes and weak stomachs is stewed tomatoes on toast--known as a "train wreck". Info gleaned long ago from Lou Killen, an authority on Tawney. Willie-O |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: Bat Goddess Date: 21 Jun 00 - 10:27 AM Thanks to Andy G. for the list of definitions. I could have gotten them right if I had been able to consult my sources, namely my husband, Tom Hall. Heard Lou Killen do a couple Tawney songs last Saturday--having to explain the terminology took almost as long as the song, sometimes. Tawney is pretty amazing when it comes to writing music "in the tradition" -- take "Five Foot Flirt", his tribute to the music hall style. Bat Goddess |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: AndyG Date: 21 Jun 00 - 11:01 AM Bat Goddess,
Perhaps you can help with the quiz at the end of this song then ?
My answers (8):
AndyG |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 21 Jun 00 - 11:19 AM The original Comic Cuts was a children's comic, launched by Alfred Harmsworth in 1890 and enormously popular at the time the term entered Service slang. It ran until 1953. Cyril wrote Chicken on a Raft in 1958 as a "mock" shanty, largely to use up bits of part-written songs that seemed too good to waste but didn't fit anywhere else! Malcolm |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: Wolfgang Date: 21 Jun 00 - 12:04 PM For Andy's quiz: Here is a version of 'Cyril said it all before' with the quiz solutions in CAPS. The only one you didn't have, Andy, is from an additional verse not (yet) in Mudcat. Great job. Wolfgang |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: zander (inactive) Date: 21 Jun 00 - 02:44 PM Chicken on a Raft is a fried egg on fried bread according to Cyril, who wrote it. Regards, dace |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: zander (inactive) Date: 21 Jun 00 - 02:44 PM Chicken on a Raft is a fried egg on fried bread according to Cyril, who wrote it. Regards, dave |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: wildlone Date: 21 Jun 00 - 02:48 PM My Uncle was in the Royal during the last war, He served on board many ships including the Rodney and the Trinidad. The Oggy or Pasty he used to buy from a seller at the Devonport Dockyard gates after a run ashore came in two sizes the four oared oggy and the six oared oggy Cyril would have known this man who gave up selling somtime after the war I believe. Cyril wrote Diesel and Shale as there had never been a shanty for submarine's before. SHALE is shale oil a lubricant that did not smell very nice. If "Train Wreck" put you off how about S**t on a Shingle, Minced [or ground] beef on toast |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Jun 00 - 02:58 PM When I first heard Chicken on a Raft I thought it was a reference to naval cannibalism. You know, adrift in a raft, draw straws to see who's for breakfast. I was rather disappointed to learn the real meaning.
A mondegreen I can't get out of my mind is "The Grey Flannel Line."
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Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: MMario Date: 21 Jun 00 - 03:08 PM Isn't "The Gray Flannel Line" a parody about a bunch of lawyers on a cruise? |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: kendall Date: 21 Jun 00 - 04:16 PM Chicken on a raft is much less nauseous making than creamed / chipped beef on toast. We seamen of limited vocabulary called it "creamed foreskins" on toast. |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: Margo Date: 21 Jun 00 - 05:41 PM As I understand it, the "Chicken on a Raft" was egg on toast but deep fried long before the breakfast hour so that when the sailor sat down to eat the fat had congealed and it was very unappetizing. Hence the "terrible sight to see". Also, I think DABTOES was the nickname for the greenhorn sailor who would trip over the metal bolts sticking up out of the deck.Margo |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: Bill D Date: 21 Jun 00 - 06:12 PM also about the song....a lot of people who sing it these days hold the note on 'aft' ... "dabtoes forward and the dustmen affffffffft"... for 4 beats....... but when Tawney was here in Wash DC, USA about 17-18 years ago, he profesed surprise...said he sure didn't write it that way:meant it to be sung with just a normal beat..not that he was upset, just bemused... |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 21 Jun 00 - 07:32 PM The Young Tradition (Peter Bellamy, Royston Wood & Heather Wood) introduced that held note. Most people who sing Chicken on a Raft learnt it -at some remove- from their recording. Malcolm |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: MarkS Date: 21 Jun 00 - 07:58 PM Recall the dabtoes sat forward and the dustmen aft because the various specialties aboard ship tended to sit (as well as bunk and work) together. |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: GUEST,jack penman Date: 22 Jun 00 - 02:06 AM DonnyB: Donnybristle in Fifeshire I think, not far from Rosyth dockyard |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: Peter Kasin Date: 22 Jun 00 - 05:23 AM Wasn't The Grey Flannel Line composed by L.L. Bean? |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: rock chick Date: 07 Aug 01 - 06:13 PM Thanks radriand (Richard) Next time I hear that song it may have more meaning to me. We all get into pissy moods, no need for apologies, but they are accepted anyway. The info you gave me is intresting, I'll look out for some of his songs and you never know, I may... just may become a fan? rc (Shelagh) If you received this message more than once ops!! sorry but I seem to be having trouble tonight with the computor |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: GUEST,guest Date: 08 Aug 01 - 05:53 PM Damn! I always thought "chicken on a raft" was the weevil that crawled out of the stale ship's biscuit when it was floated on water (for that purpose) Much more romantic - but where on earth did I get it from? |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: Jock Morris Date: 09 Aug 01 - 05:28 PM Another similar concoction was devilled kidneys on toast -> Shit on a raft. Scott |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: Margo Date: 09 Aug 01 - 05:30 PM Hmmmm.... sounds like the American S.O.S.; shit on a shingle. Actually chipped beef on toast. Is it that bad? Or is it just the way it looks? |
Subject: Chicken on a raft From: Arnie Date: 24 Oct 01 - 10:36 AM Chicken on a raft is a great Cyril Tawney shanty and I keep meaning to try it at my local FC but some clever sod is bound to ask me what it means. So, any idea why there's a chicken on a raft? (maybe it's the marine equivalent of chicken in basket?) And what's a dabtoe? Any offers gratefully rec'd as ever... |
Subject: RE: Chicken on a raft From: Hawker Date: 24 Oct 01 - 10:38 AM It's mariners speak for Egg on taost - The egg is the chicken and the raft is the toast Hope it goes down well! Regards, Lucy |
Subject: RE: Chicken on a raft From: Wolfgang Date: 24 Oct 01 - 10:43 AM see old thread: Meaning of chicken on a raft Wolfgang |
Subject: RE: Chicken on a raft From: Arnie Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:07 AM Thanks Hawker and Wolfgang. I should have known there'd be a previous thread on the subject - there usually is! Anyway, the thread has explained everything I need to know and more, so I now have no excuse but to go for it! The difficult part (as ever) will be educating the audience to join in on their bits - you just can't sing a shanty by yourself!! |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: NH Dave Date: 24 Oct 01 - 03:42 PM SOS, American Military (originally) slang for Creamed Beef on Toast was just a nickname, drawn from the idea of some mystery sauce on a slab of toast. Properly made, it can be tasty, although like other local delicacies it IS an acquired taste. Old time military types would go down the chow line getting eggs, home-fries (chunked up bits of previously cooked potatoes that have been refried), toast, grits (in the south), and the beef-in-gravy over the lot. Sort of binds everything together. Dave |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 24 Oct 01 - 03:58 PM A sailor's Comic Cuts is his personal file, record of service, misdemeanors etc. Just a cuckoo in another man's nest, Keith |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: Nemesis Date: 24 Oct 01 - 07:52 PM We have C-o-a-R in our repertoire filched from YT - and I have to say that the change of timing (whatever) on that line dabtoes forward does lend itself naturally to the opportunity for doing some really interesting harmonies. Cyril is at Horsham Sussex, Folk Club on 18 NOv - apparently about the only date in this area. |
Subject: RE: Chicken on a raft From: 53 Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:14 PM never heard of that expression. |
Subject: RE: Chicken on a raft From: ddw Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:42 PM 53, I gotta hand it to you. You're the only person I've seen in two and a half years on Mudcat who will keep a dead thread alive to trumpet his ignorance..... david BTW — maybe nobody told you, but it's not mandatory to post to every thread you open..... |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: GUEST,John Gray/Australia Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:43 PM Yeah, dustmen, or dusties, are stokers. So named because they were covered in coal dust. The nickname sticks to this day even though ships are Diesel or gas turbine powered. I was a stoker in the 60's/70's. We knew tomato au gratin as train smash but my favorite for breakfast was always sauteed kidneys, or, as we called them, piss strainers. In this, and a couple other posts, the navy slang " a run ashore " has been mentioned but with no clarification. It is not going ashore to run around. It is the term used by sailors for going ashore to partake of alcoholic refreshments. Instead of saying, let's go ashore, go to the pub, and get stuck into booze, it was, let's go for a run ashore. If it was for shopping, usually in a duty free port, it became, let's go for a rabbit run. A rabbit was a present for the folks back home. JG / FME. |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: petem @ work Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:52 PM One thing that always mystified other service types was the concept of a liberty boat having to be alongside before you could go ashore from a stone frigate, Pete M |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: wysiwyg Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:38 AM I only had time to skim all this but I didnl;t see what I was looking for-- CONCLUSION: must have been in another thread. In a thread that included DABTOES in the last year or so, there was a link to a nautical glossary of all these fun terms..... ~S~ |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: GUEST,Boab Date: 25 Oct 01 - 03:48 AM Just a point of interest---once heard Cyril on radio congratulating Lonnie Donnegan "on the best version of "Sammy's Bar" he'd heard done'. Lonnie did it in 3/4 time. |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: wildlone Date: 25 Oct 01 - 03:30 PM Guest John Gray/OZ In the Royal, rabbit/rabbiting is also what the sailors got up to if they "pulled" on a run. dave |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: Walking Eagle Date: 25 Oct 01 - 05:51 PM Just a little thread creep here. Diner slang for eggs here in the states is cackleberries. In days gone by, if a customer wanted two scrambled eggs, the waitress would shout 'Two cackleberries, wreck 'em,' to the short order cook. |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: Dunc Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:41 PM A complete list of all 'traditional' Royal Naval slang can be found the the Admiralty Manual of Seamanship. The old port Admiral for Rosyth Naval Base in Scotland had a huge house at Donnibristle (Donny-B)5 miles east of the dockyard. The house (which now falls within the town of Dalgety Bay)was gutted and rebuilt about eight years ago as luxury flats. There is a connection with Donibristle House and The Bonny Earl of Murray. There were a set of spectacular wrought iron gates with the crest of the Earl of Murray in front of Donny-B House. I was walking my dog past them one Sunday morning and said 'Hello' to some men carrying out some work on them. A few days later I read in the local newspaper that they had been stolen - by the friendly workmen. Dunc |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: GUEST,Pauline Date: 26 Oct 01 - 02:22 PM Archie Tawney goes to the Opendoor Folk Club each week so I'll ask him this week for you. |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: Herga Kitty Date: 26 Oct 01 - 05:56 PM Here's the Grey Flannel Line (a sewing shantey by Carol Tawney, "discovered" by Vikki Appleton Fielden:
I work my shift, day after day
Don't mind the grain nor an open seam
No silks or satins do I sew
Oh Lord, if dreams were only real |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: Bernard Date: 04 Nov 01 - 06:36 AM Archie Tawney's 'official' answer - boiled egg on fried bread. The fried bread goes soggy whilst waiting for the boiled egg... and he should know! Archie sings quite a few of his brother's songs up at the Open Door in Failsworth, and plenty of other stuff, too. Well worth the visit! |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: GUEST,Allen Date: 05 Jun 05 - 05:23 AM This song reminds me of the first meal of the week on my base. Not as bad as chicken on a raft, but what a sight greeted your eyes. What a brilliant writer Tawney was. |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: Dave Hanson Date: 05 Jun 05 - 06:31 AM Who is Archie Tawney then ? According to Cyril in the notes to his album ' Sally Free and Easy, Dabtoes = seamen dustmen = stokers chicken on a raft = fried egg on fried bread OK, eric |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: GUEST,Allen Date: 05 Jun 05 - 06:37 AM His brother one assumes. |
Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' From: Don Firth Date: 05 Jun 05 - 04:45 PM Probably a matter of regional differences, but the way I've always heard it: Chicken on a raft = creamed chicken on toast. S**t on a shingle = creamed chipped beef on toast. Don Firth |
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