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Lyr Add: The Next to Die in Texas

Áine 22 Jun 00 - 08:55 PM
kendall 22 Jun 00 - 09:04 PM
Áine 22 Jun 00 - 09:56 PM
catspaw49 22 Jun 00 - 10:06 PM
Amergin 22 Jun 00 - 10:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Jun 00 - 10:20 PM
GUEST,Barry Finn 22 Jun 00 - 10:24 PM
katlaughing 22 Jun 00 - 10:24 PM
catspaw49 22 Jun 00 - 10:45 PM
Brendy 22 Jun 00 - 11:10 PM
Áine 22 Jun 00 - 11:25 PM
Mbo 22 Jun 00 - 11:32 PM
GUEST,Barry Finn 22 Jun 00 - 11:38 PM
Mbo 22 Jun 00 - 11:41 PM
Brendy 22 Jun 00 - 11:44 PM
catspaw49 23 Jun 00 - 12:07 AM
katlaughing 23 Jun 00 - 12:21 AM
Amergin 23 Jun 00 - 12:34 AM
Mbo 23 Jun 00 - 12:40 AM
Kelida 23 Jun 00 - 12:40 AM
Kelida 23 Jun 00 - 12:43 AM
Amergin 23 Jun 00 - 12:48 AM
katlaughing 23 Jun 00 - 12:54 AM
Sorcha 23 Jun 00 - 12:54 AM
Mbo 23 Jun 00 - 12:58 AM
Brendy 23 Jun 00 - 01:08 AM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 23 Jun 00 - 01:30 AM
Kelida 23 Jun 00 - 01:44 AM
Sorcha 23 Jun 00 - 01:50 AM
Amergin 23 Jun 00 - 01:50 AM
zonahobo 23 Jun 00 - 03:17 AM
Brendy 23 Jun 00 - 03:21 AM
Fiddlin' Big Al 23 Jun 00 - 03:45 AM
Amergin 23 Jun 00 - 03:46 AM
Brendy 23 Jun 00 - 04:14 AM
Brendy 23 Jun 00 - 04:18 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jun 00 - 05:13 AM
IanC 23 Jun 00 - 06:08 AM
kendall 23 Jun 00 - 07:29 AM
keltcgrasshoppper 23 Jun 00 - 07:34 AM
Mbo 23 Jun 00 - 07:42 AM
Brendy 23 Jun 00 - 08:24 AM
Mbo 23 Jun 00 - 08:30 AM
Brendy 23 Jun 00 - 08:33 AM
JedMarum 23 Jun 00 - 09:31 AM
Mbo 23 Jun 00 - 09:35 AM
Jim the Bart 23 Jun 00 - 09:49 AM
GUEST,trucker dave 23 Jun 00 - 09:58 AM
Brendy 23 Jun 00 - 10:32 AM
Brendy 23 Jun 00 - 10:57 AM
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE NEXT TO DIE IN TEXAS
From: Áine
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 08:55 PM

Just something that I had to get off my mind . . .

The next to die in Texas
Is a boy that had gone wrong
From doing drugs to dealing them
His list of sins was long

But is it right to kill a man
Without evidence of crime?
One pair of eyes looked through the dark
It was enough to kill in time

And the others who were there
Why weren't their voices heard?
I ask you, where is justice
When their evidence is buried?

The governor, he washed his hands
And spoke as Pontius Pilate
"I have no business with this deed,
"Just cross him off and file it.

"Don't bother me, I'm in a race,
"To lead this land to greatness,"
No thought of mercy for woman or man
Doomed to eternal darkness.

The next to die in Texas
Will be added to the list
Of humans who, it seems to me
Have been ground down into grist

And on us all, their destined fate
Could fall with circumstance
Can't we forgive, can we forget
And take a second glance?


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 09:04 PM

The disheartening thing is that a recent poll shows that the majority of Americans now favor the death penalty. The politicians know where most of the votes are. Also, has anyone noticed how big business is on a crusade to influence the election by driving gas prices out of sight? Hey, they needed an issue, so, they created one. You listening Doug?


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Áine
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 09:56 PM

It is finished.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 10:06 PM

I am with you and your lyric tonight Aine. I stated elsewhere that if we must continue with this barbaric method of "justice" then we need to change the system and make the standard "Guilt Beyond ALL Doubt." In capital, death penalty cases, beyond a reasonable doubt is not enough.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Amergin
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 10:14 PM

Lovely and sad song, Aine. Had a bunch of things to say...but am now suddenly speechless....

Amergin


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 10:20 PM

Thanks Áine. Killing in cold blood is a terrible thing. When it's tied in with politics it gets even sicker.

I'm not suprised most people say they back the death penalty in the States. That's probably still true in England. But I don't think it's ever been a vote winner in the same sort of way. At any rate there were a majority of politicians who were abolitionists, and they still got elected by peope who weren't.

But I read that the majority for the death openalty is smaller in the States than it used to be.

And I know there are honourable people who believe it should exist. But some of the cases it seems to be applied to seem really strange, and it seems pretty clear that a fair number of innocent people have been killed by the system.

I can remember as a boy at school the day when Derek Bentley was hung - there was a odd sort of excitement about it, because he wasn't all that much older than we were. He was pardoned later of course, many many years after he was killed.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 10:24 PM

I have to inject here about a man in Lowell, Mass (1/2 hr. north of Boston) who was on death row for 5 yrs. Our Own Mudcatter John Nolan a reporter for a New Hampshire newspaper (he's here from time to time) was to cover the story & being an ex copper from Glasgow smelt something amiss & being the dog that he is, he wouldn't let go of it till he made such a stink about what he was digging up about the whole mess that the case was heard again. The man was found to have been railroaded & the case was overturned & the fella turned loose & John trully stopped the man from going to the gallows. I may be off the mark with this a bit & maybe John will stop in here & give the full facts (though he may be a bit to modest), but I remember seeing the man's release & the stir about it, the only thing that's a bit fuzzy is John's relating his report to me. The trully awfull thing is that this is becoming more common & if getting rid of the death penalty saves one innocent then it's well worth it. Kind of like ants, if there's one in the house there's hundereds of others that you don't know about. Barry


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 10:24 PM

Maybe it will backfire on the bastards, esp. on Bush who had the audacity to say, "May God bless Mr. Graham."

For crissakes, he was only 17, this happened 19 yers ago, among other factors....I nominate ole Dubya for ratbastard of the year....unbelievable, more and more we live in a nation of death...

Thanks, Aine, along with Shambles's song, today...pretty damn sad around here, but sure did need to be said.

Fawking bastards....


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 10:45 PM

Lest ANYONE get the mistaken idea that I in any way endorse the death penalty from my previous post, I don't. I can think of no more barbaric practice relating in any way to justice. There can be no justice when we allow these things to happen. Will we ever get the concensus to change? Cynical bastard that I am, I feel we are probably screwed. I've heard all the nonsense arguments about the reasons for state sanctioned killing and they are all utter and complete crap. But for those who DO believe, I'd love to hear their answer to "Guilt Beyond ALL Doubt" as I stated above.

For me, there is only sadness that this country cannot and will not see the truth. Let the shame be unrestrained.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Brendy
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 11:10 PM

I remember one Law Lord in the Upper House in Westminster say one time, that if he had tried The Birmingham Six, and the death penalty had have been fashionable (I don't think the death penalty has actually been revoked in England; could be wrong here, though), he would have "strung 'em up".

How many innocent people, roughly, get executed in the States every year?
The law of averages would have the figure fairly high, I'd say.

B.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Áine
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 11:25 PM

Thank you all for reading my hastily scribbled words. I've got a tune now, also hastily written, knowing it's not the best I could do -- but, I had to do something . . . living in this state (and this country) and seeing the bodies pile up week by week just became too much even for me. It really pisses me off to feel so overwhelmed and powerless about this kind of thing.

-- Áine


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Mbo
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 11:32 PM

Then I suppose the bastards who dragged the African-American man behind their pickup truck don't deserve to die either?


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 11:38 PM

Hi Mbo, they probably do deserve it but let them rot for life so that the rest of us don't live in the shadow of the gallows. Barry


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Mbo
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 11:41 PM

Ok.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Brendy
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 11:44 PM

I hate to quote the Christian Bible, but didn't someone say once "Revenge is mine".
Or have you acquired delusions of grandeur, Mbo?

B.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:07 AM

I have been in favor of the "8x8 & Crap in a Can" method for a long time. Okay, its inhumane, but a long way above the death penalty. I mean bare bones, basic, stuff and small accomodations. Frankly, the idea of spending the remainder of my life that way scares the hell out of me far more than the death penalty.

But I also don't believe that the death penalty is any real deterrent in most of the crimes where we ask for it. These aren't well thought out crimes in the main. Mostly we ask for the death penalty for vengeance as Brendy said. Ain't no way to call it civilized...period.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:21 AM

You are so right, Spaw. What criminal really stops to say, "Oh, wait, I'd better not kill that person 'cause then I might get the BIG NEEDLE and go bye-bye, too!"

Thsi country is so fucked up and schizo...on one hand we say most crimes are comitted at the height of some passion, then expect everyone to take time out during such passions to reason out the consequences. People don't care during the commission of a crime if their buddy got the needle or not...and too many people are innocent who are on death row.

For many years I corresponded with a Native American woman who was on death row in Maryland for a murder her ex-husband had committed; he lied and "turned state's evidence" and implicated her, even though she was not involved. He got off with a few years for robbery and she got the death penalty. Through a lot of letter-writing etc., we managed to get the then-governor to commute her sentence to life.

I lost touch with her almost seven years ago so I don't know what has happened to her, but it was NOT right that she was there and he was out. Hers was a bright and loving spirit with incredible patience and a will to keep herself from falling into deep despair, always helping those of lesser education who were her fellow inmates, tirelessly working to prove her innocence. The system was very prejudice against her not only for being a minority, but also because she was outspoken.

When will we see a change?


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Amergin
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:34 AM

When the People start fighting back.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Mbo
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:40 AM

"How long before the Judgement Day? How long before we cut the fat ones down to size? Before the barricades arise?!!!" Come my friends...if they mean to start something, let it begin here...we now draw a line...this far and NO FURTHER! We will win ourselves a home!!


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Kelida
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:40 AM

As an ardent pacifist, I will never cease to wonder why anyone ever wants to kill anyone else for any reason. Violence against anyone is wrong, and the old saying "fight fire with fire" has never made any sense to me. I have another saying: "fighting for peace is like f***ing for virginity." However, I'm a little ambivalent about the death penalty because I'm also a libertarian (more or less). I don't consider anyone who can murder in cold blood to be HUMAN in any sense of the word--except genetics. Also, I think life imprisonment is a lot crueler than death. At the same time, most people convicted of murder ARE guilty. There are also way too many violent criminals that have been released and later imprisoned for a similar or worse crime. These people obviously are NOT rehabilitated, and are dangerous animals, and should be treated as such. Dogs, who are supposedly "lower life forms," are killed just for BITING people without causing irreperable harm. I don't see the justice in that, either.

I feel that in some cases the death penalty is warranted, but if there is another way to keep people off the streets PERMANENTLY than I am all for it. The biggest problem with life sentences is that they aren't usually served completely. The saddest thing is that hackers and theives can spend more time in jail than murderers and rapists.

I feel that the American justice system needs to be seriously reconsidered.

Peace--Keli


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Kelida
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:43 AM

kat--of course they don't think that. They think: "Hey, I'll probably just get life, but I'll also probably get out in less than 20 years.

Peace--Keli


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Amergin
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:48 AM

No, Kelida, getting caught tends to be the furthest thing from their minds. The other side of the coin of course is if this man had had money behind him he would never have seen the inside of a cage to begin with, whether he was guilty or not.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:54 AM

Keli...I don't thnk, in the moment, that they think at all...good points in your posts, though.

There is a great oline community which started out urging Congress to "Censure & Move On", in reference to Clinton. www.moveon.org has gone on to work on other issues, as a grassroots movement of people from all sides of the fences. I wonder if they would pull together something on this. I think I will email the woman who heads it and see what she says. Here's soe info on what it is all about:

"What is MoveOn all about?

MoveOn is working to bring ordinary people back into politics. With a system that today revolves around big money and big media, most citizens are left out. When it becomes clear that our "representatives" don't represent the public, the foundations of democracy are in peril. MoveOn and the Internet will be a catalyst for a new kind of grassroots involvement, supporting busy but concerned citizens in finding their political voice.

What does MoveOn do?

When there is a disconnect between broad public opinion and legislative action, MoveOn builds electronic advocacy groups. Examples of such issues are impeachment, gun safety, nuclear disarmament, and campaign finance. Once a group is assembled, MoveOn provides information and tools to help each individual have the greatest possible impact. During impeachment, MoveOn's grassroots advocates generated more than 250,000 phone calls and a million emails to Congress. We helped Congress come to understand the depth of public opposition to impeachment."


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:54 AM

Thank you Kelida. I do support the death penalty, but ONLY in extreme cases, and as spaw says, beyond all doubt. It is NOT a deterrent, but if it will keep one serial rapist/murderer from doing it again, that is the only reason for it's existence. Yes, it is barbaric, but so are some of the crimes that are "beyond all doubt". Not most, just some. And IF a Life Sentence meant that, I would support it, but it rarely does, now, because the jails are so overcrowded. The answer is not building more jails, or de-criminalizing things. I don't know what the answer is, either. Please don't jump on me, I am very, very ambivilent about this, and am not able to decide where the parameters are. I do know, I could not pull the switch.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Mbo
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:58 AM

I got one word.....Antartica.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:08 AM

At least it's better than "Burn you bastard"

B.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:30 AM

Kelida, the only reason you have the freedom to say what you say, is because decent people stand ready todefend your rights by fighting others who would take them away. The world is not a nice place mates, sometimes you must fight evil. Yours,Aye. Dave ( who agrees with Spaw on this one )


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Kelida
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:44 AM

People shouldn't have to fight for anything, especially rights. EVERYONE should have the same rights. As far as I am concerned there is never any reason to fight for anything.

Peace--Keli


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:50 AM

Maybe Mbo is right, Antarctica...........


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Amergin
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:50 AM

But not everyone has those rights and the rich has more rights than those of us who break our backs for our next supper. No we shouldn't have to fight for them, but we do, because they are not freely given. Many are the unmarked graves that dot this free country of ours (USA) of those that fought for things that we take for granted today, things like the forty hour work week, overtime, medical care, and other benefits. Those murders were oftentimes sanctioned by the State. Think the Masters would have let us have them for no reason but just because? No their idea of giving their workers off time was the vacation they got at the end, when they died. Some things are worth fighting for.

Amergin


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: zonahobo
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 03:17 AM

I'm with the beyond all doubt ultimate punishment for the ultimate crime group. I think as a society it's justified as self defense. I will not defend the right of a murderer to murder again. If someone was breaking down your front door intent on rape and murder of your whole household and you have "deadly force" at your disposal, do you defend your family? The system is flawed in many ways but I think many more criminals avoid punishment than truly innocent people get punished by the system. Most of the innocents (us) are much more likely to be victimized by criminals. Where do we want to spend what limited time we have? Should we be striving to protect and help the many more innocent, victimized by crime, members of our society or try to tear down what little protection we have.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 03:21 AM

"Two good men's a long time gone.
Left me here to sing this song.
Two good men's a long time gone
Sacco and Vanzetti are gone."

B.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Fiddlin' Big Al
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 03:45 AM

Read a book recently "The Rich Get Richer & The Poor Get Prison" don't remember author but is a text in university criminal justice studies. Do you believe that police never lie under oath, that eyewitnesses really always see what they think they see? Since most people you know would qualify for a public defender how can you be sure you or someone you know won't personally wind up faced with the needle. The self-righteous are certain they will never be in that position themselves so they keep supporting the killing regardless of doubts. Is this death penalty a genetic thing with the Bush Bros? or just pols in general? To get elected - play the law & order card. LEGALITY (practiced by the Bush Bros.)is not equivalent to MORALITY (understood and acted on by Gov. Ryan of Illinois, a courageous man - I'm proud to have once called IL my home.) Gotta go ... foaming at the mouth.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Amergin
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 03:46 AM

The difference between the Sacco and Vanzetti case and this one is that another man who was executed that same night confessed to the murders they were supposed to have done and that there are no accounts of them actually doing any crime whatsoever. Another clear cut case of murderous oppression by the State. The man who died tonight was no saint.

Amergin


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 04:14 AM

That was not my point, Amergin.
The similarity between the two cases is death.

B.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 04:18 AM

It sort of all just goes to prove that the old Homo Sapien hasn't got the idea of human sacrifice out of it's system.

B.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 05:13 AM

Brendy, you're wrong about the death penalty just being supended in England. It's out, and as it stands now, even a government which wanted to bring it back couldn't do so without seceding from the European Union - and that goes for any other country in the Union, or who wants to join.

That doesn't mean the state can't find ways of killig people when it wants. But at least we'll never get a 36 year old man strapped to a table and killed because of something he may have done when he was 17.

I don't think you'd get that even in the other world leaders in capital punishment, China and Saudi Arabia.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: IanC
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 06:08 AM

Thanks Kevin

I was going to say that getting rid of the death penalty in the UK was one of the things politicians could be praised for. They did it despite the majority of people wanting to retain it (as far as I'm aware they still do).

Sometimes the politicians are ahead of the masses!


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: kendall
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 07:29 AM

For those of you who believe that the state should kill a person just because that person murdered someone, and, therefore, deserves it, consider this. Most of us are appalled at what we did to the Japanese in Heroshima and Nagasaki. All those innocent civilians killed.. how about all those innocent civilians whom the Japanese butchered in China and in the Phillipines? I served with a man from the Phillipines who was a victim of Japanese butchery. His throat was cut from ear to ear, yet, he somehow lived. He told stories of Japanese soldiers throwing babies up in the air and spearing them on bayonets as they fell. If you believe as the supporters of the death penalty do, that one wrong deserves another, didn't the residents of Heroshima and Nagasaki deserve it? Isn't it just "tit for tat". By the way, I'm against the death penalty. As Gandhi said, "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, only makes the whole world blind and toothless."


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: keltcgrasshoppper
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 07:34 AM

Going back to Catspaw and Scorcha, I also feel that "beyond any doubt" is the only acceptable way for justice to be handed down regarding the Death Penality. I know this is a bit off track, but last weekend we watched "The Green Mile" and knowing that all of this was happening in Texas made the movie even more upsetting. With the justice system in place the way it is in Texas there is no way to stop an innocent man/woman from being killed. It is barbaric, but we are a barbaric country. Look what we do to our children, look how we treat our elderly, look how we treat our women. By the way Kat I just went to that site and registered. That is one way I can at least feel that I am a part of CHANGE. Thanks KHG


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Mbo
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 07:42 AM

Kelida, if people in the past hadn't stood up a fought for freedom, the world would be in a sorry state, and undoubtedly a lot more races would have been wiped out, in addition to the onces that didn't make it already. There would be no America, and you wouldn't even be alive. Sure it's easy to say that fighting for freedom is wrong now, but must have been pretty hard to reason with a Roman legion, or The Golden Horde or the British Navy.

There's a great part in the musical "Pippin" by Stephen Schwartz. When Pippin becomes king, he swears that there will be no more war, and that he can solve everything by talking. So when the Huns are invading, and sending threats to him to either fight or die, he has his messenger go to the Huns, and let them know that he wants to talk, and through that, they can come to a common agreement. When the messenger return, in a disheveled state, he reports that the Huns will talk with him, but first they want his genitals handed to them in a bag. Needless to say the Huns overrun the city that night, and he is almost killed...


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 08:24 AM

What has that got to do with the death penalty, Meebs?

B.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Mbo
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 08:30 AM

It's thread drift, Brendster, we were talking about fighting for peace.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 08:33 AM

Ahhhh, THREAD DRIFT!!!

Why did I get the impression that you were going to say that?

B.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: JedMarum
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 09:31 AM

Now let's keep some persepective on the issue at hand. The young man in question has admitted to 13 victims of his gun weilding viloence - those admitted crimes included; attempeted murder, rape, battery and armed robbery. We are not talkng about a good kid gone bad because he was poor. I was poor. I never consider shooting, robbing or raping anyone to aleviate my poverty, likewise neither did many, many other poor people. Poverty does not justify lack or respect for human dignity!

The death penalty should be applied with careful constraint, perhaps with the litmus test Spaw suggests - beyond all doubt - but let's also keep in mind that this young man's case was tried in court, reviewed and retried in other courts - his story has been told and retold to many of our professional courts and judges - ALL have agreed with the original court's findings after reviewing in detail the case and its background. Why do we suppose we know better after reviewing all the TV news sound bites?

Governor Bush may be someone we want to skewer for this issue, but the fact is; he remained powerless to stop the execution. Texas governors have very little power, compared to Governor's of other states. Bush had to rely on the findings of the parole review board, and could not overturn their decision.

The death penalty is not, in my estimation, a valid deterent for crime, nor is it 'justice' in the sense of "you did a bad thing, now we're going to do a bad thing to you" - it is a ritual act. It says 'we (the state) have a final act that brings retribution to society at large for your crime' - someone in this thread said, human sacrifice - that's probably not too far from the truth. And someone else said "babaric," again, probably not far off the mark, as in base level human needs - The death penalty is a final act to bring retribution for extreme transgessions against human-kind. It is a ritual. I believe it still has a place in our world.

Finally - I am certain that death is not the worst thing that can happen to you. I am the only one in this world who can bring sanctity to my life. I am the only one who know the worth of my own existence, in the light of how the world has treated me, and with the certain knowledge of how I responded to it. Even wrongful death at the hands of a mistaken state who believes me a murderer when I am not cannot take that dignity away from me, when they take my life. I do not believe Mr Graham was wrongfully accused, many, many people have looked at his story in much more detail, and with much more care than I will ever be able to do ... but if he was, his final judgement rested in his own heart, and in the heart of his eternity. This final judgement was not a public issue - for this private issue, I say, as my governor said, "May God bless Mr Graham."


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Mbo
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 09:35 AM

Well put, my friend.

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 09:49 AM

Aine -
I read your post last night and it reached me. I have been ambivalent about the death penalty. After all, we all die eventually. And I have always been swayed by the argument that in many ways the death penalty is less cruel than life in our penal system. But I have decided to oppose the death penalty because of the barbarism that is at its root. I oppose it not because, as some believe, an innocent man died. An innocent man died nineteen years ago and that shouldn't go unredressed in some way. I oppose it because it is barbaric to kill. And we as a species need to aspire to something better if we wish to have a better world. It has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with evolution, in a sense. I choose not to kill because I believe that that is one thing that I can do to make the world a better place. And it is hypocritical to ask someone to kill in my name, whether they have been sworn in or not.

I realize what a can o'worms this opens up for me. After all, there are all the other related philosphical dominos to consider - abortion, euthenasia, even vegetarianism. But those are not the topic here and I will need to deal with them in their time if I want to be a complete person, rather than a complete fraud. And I will. On the other side of the coin, I also understand that one man saying this doesn't make the world a good place. It will only work if everyone believes that violence towards others - whether physical, mental or emotional - is equally barbaric and has no place in the world that we wish to have someday. If no one murdered anyone, or raped them, or stole their self-respect, or reduced them to a statistical economic necessity (a certain amount of unemployment is, after all, good for the economy)maybe the question of whether a man like Gary Graham deserved to die. Or whether we had the right and the responsibility to kill him.

Understand one thing about my decision that the death penalty has no place in a civilized society - anyone is free to disagree with me and I can't find fault in that decision. We live in a barbarous age, only slightly less barbarous than those that preceded ours. "An eye for an eye" works, but only up to a point. My decision on this is a leap of faith. It is predicated on the belief that mankind can become better than it is. Viscerally, I believe that those guys who dragged that guy behind a truck until he was dead should have the same done to them - publicly, as a warning to anyone who would ever consider such an act. But that would just confirm our worst beliefs about ourselves - that life is cruel and short and it is only the circumstances of our own sad end that are left to be decided.

Thank you, Aine, for dragging me out of my lethargy to face this question one more time. I have a deep and abiding regret that Gary Graham had to die because Mr. Lambert was murdered nineteen years ago and we needed "closure". I fear the ramifications of what I have now seen to be just more killing. But, I can't ignore it anymore or debate it away. We should not kill. Period.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: GUEST,trucker dave
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 09:58 AM

kill 'em all and let god sort them out.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 10:32 AM

Have a shufty in here

B.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 10:57 AM

I'm just waiting for it to make it's debùt on 'Showtime', with an drooling Don King introducing the night's attraction, interrupted only by adverts from Burger King and McDonalds, enticing all of us to sample their 'Jailhouse Specials' or whatever.
Who knows, Mike Tyson could eventually realise his true vocation as MC of such attractions.

That would be fun, now, wouldn't it?

B.
(What's good for business is good!)


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