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Lyr Add: The Next to Die in Texas

Sorcha 29 Jun 00 - 01:08 AM
Terry K 29 Jun 00 - 12:51 AM
DougR 29 Jun 00 - 12:28 AM
GUEST,Roger the skiffler 28 Jun 00 - 06:41 AM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Jun 00 - 05:46 AM
JedMarum 28 Jun 00 - 12:01 AM
kendall 27 Jun 00 - 07:44 PM
Jed at Work 27 Jun 00 - 05:45 PM
InOBU 27 Jun 00 - 05:05 PM
kendall 27 Jun 00 - 02:33 PM
DougR 27 Jun 00 - 01:54 PM
kendall 27 Jun 00 - 10:34 AM
Mbo 27 Jun 00 - 09:21 AM
kendall 27 Jun 00 - 08:58 AM
InOBU 27 Jun 00 - 08:34 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Jun 00 - 07:36 AM
kendall 27 Jun 00 - 06:18 AM
Terry K 27 Jun 00 - 02:37 AM
JamesJim 27 Jun 00 - 01:18 AM
DougR 27 Jun 00 - 12:26 AM
GUEST 26 Jun 00 - 11:33 PM
BK 26 Jun 00 - 11:04 PM
DougR 26 Jun 00 - 08:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jun 00 - 07:48 PM
Mooh 26 Jun 00 - 07:17 PM
GUEST,Mbo_at_ECU 26 Jun 00 - 06:44 PM
Jim the Bart 26 Jun 00 - 06:33 PM
katlaughing 26 Jun 00 - 05:04 PM
kendall 26 Jun 00 - 04:27 PM
GUEST,Potter 26 Jun 00 - 04:08 PM
Mbo 26 Jun 00 - 03:43 PM
InOBU 26 Jun 00 - 03:38 PM
The Shambles 26 Jun 00 - 03:05 PM
InOBU 26 Jun 00 - 01:48 PM
kendall 26 Jun 00 - 01:38 PM
GUEST,Roger the skiffler 26 Jun 00 - 11:03 AM
DougR 24 Jun 00 - 11:42 AM
Brendy 24 Jun 00 - 11:41 AM
Ebbie 24 Jun 00 - 11:17 AM
catspaw49 24 Jun 00 - 10:45 AM
The Shambles 24 Jun 00 - 10:34 AM
Greg F. 24 Jun 00 - 09:35 AM
The Shambles 24 Jun 00 - 09:23 AM
InOBU 24 Jun 00 - 09:00 AM
Mooh 24 Jun 00 - 08:17 AM
DougR 24 Jun 00 - 01:18 AM
catspaw49 24 Jun 00 - 12:56 AM
DougR 24 Jun 00 - 12:45 AM
BK 24 Jun 00 - 12:38 AM
zonahobo 24 Jun 00 - 12:29 AM
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 01:08 AM

I posted once to this, and have not read it since, including now, but if you want to continue discussing it, there needs to be a Part II, which I am not starting because I am not really in on the discussion. This is too long for a lot of peoples' servers. Thank you, commercial break over.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Terry K
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 12:51 AM

I'll be first to volunteer to turn him loose - just as soon as he brings his girlfriend and her two sons back to life.

Terry


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: DougR
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 12:28 AM

I just heard on the evening news that Texas has a new "victim" in the wings. I can't remember his name but he was found guilty of murdering his girl friend, and her two sons. He was found guilty and sentenced to die. He swears he is innocent, of course,even though he was found with the blood of all three victims on his clothes. Texas is going to execute him if he is not rescued pretty quickly.

Get with it Kendall et all, I'm sure you can find a reason to turn him loose! He reportedly was drunk when he confessed to doing it, so a case might be made for extenuating circumstances, or something.

He may have had abusive parents, a poor school or Sunday school teacher, a history of drug or alcohol abuse, or questionable genes that forced him to do it of course.

Anyway, this gives the Liberals another shot at the Republican candidate which should make some folks mighty happy, and more fodder for Bush bashing.

DougR


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 06:41 AM

Just had a network crash so I hope you don't get this twice. The subject of this thread is desperately serious but does lend itself to what I suppose is literally gallows humour. One aspect is the pandering to the press ghouls by publishing details of "last meal" requests. I can't help but wonder why sometimes they contain diet cola, decaff, lowfat spread, low tar cigs etc.
RtS (who's seen too many miscarriages of justice over the last 50-odd years to be comfortable with an ultimate sanction that can't be reversed)


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 05:46 AM

"Capitalism does not create greed and other human failings." No, but it treats them as resources to be encouraged and exploited. If we stopped being greeedy and envious and trying to do each other down the system who be rocked to its foundations.

Of course it isn't just capitalism, which is really just a system of creative accountancy. The only three countries which execute more of it scitizens than the USA - Iran, China and Saudi Arabia - aren't exactly conventionally capitalist.

But a society which sets out to try to make people obsessed with thinking they need things they don't have, and that they are individually failures in life if they don't get a march ahead of their neighbours is bound to involve a heavy cost in human suffering. And the main victims are the poor and the powerless, both sides of the law.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: JedMarum
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 12:01 AM

somethin' like that.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 07:44 PM

..."Nature, Mr. Allnut, is what we are put on earth to rise above." Rose..African Queen.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Jed at Work
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 05:45 PM

The basic fallacy of Marx is his belief that humans are basically good and that some external evil leads them astray. In truth people are people; some will give you the shirt off their back, while others will kill you for your sneakers. And worse then that, we are inconsisten - the same individuals who are capable of noble selfless even heroic deeds are also capable of doing evil.

Capitalism does not create greed and other human failings. The short comings are there, it is a truely worthwhile calling to try to rise above those shortcomings - and I find it has been a lifetime task.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: InOBU
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 05:05 PM

Kendall:
Great image. I always feel that moment and the movie or book "to Kill a Mockingbird" really have great meaning and should be seen often. As to himan nature, I have lived and worked with hunter gatherer communities and much of the greed with think of as human nature is just the poor upbringing of capitalist culture. People don't suck by nature.
Larry


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 02:33 PM

And when the Actor bombed Kadhaffys little child? Not a lot of heros in DC eh?


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: DougR
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 01:54 PM

McGrath of Harlow's comment about Clinton and the medicine factory zipped on by without further comment, didn't it? Kendall, was anybody injured or killed in that fiasco? I suppose it was justified though. Folks did get their minds off Monicagate for a day or two.

DougR


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 10:34 AM

I stand corrected, thanks Mbo


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Mbo
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 09:21 AM

"They are your children Scrooge, Ignorance and Want....they are hidden now, but still they live...."

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 08:58 AM

Remember the two children under the cloak of the Ghost of Christmas, present? They were, I believe, Poverty and Ignorance. Those two birds are the main culprits. Poverty breeds crime breeds poverty etc. The cure? Equal opportunity...simple, right? not as long as human nature makes some of us greedy enough to want it all at the expense of all others. Their motto? "Pull up the ladder, I'm aboard."


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: InOBU
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 08:34 AM

Well, as I don't think many are going to take my advice and read the Fatal Shore, in responce to Jim's excellent post, and those who speak of choice, here is the point many social science scholars take from the book. Rehabilitation does not occure on an individual level often, it takes a society dedicated to fairness, which we are far from in America these days.
The Austrailian Colony was set up as a responce to the social instability caused by exicuting large numbers of excess population, put off the land because of the move from tenant farming, labour intesive, to industrialism, labour efficent - so large numbers of displaced former farmers where unable to find a place in society and pressed to steel, and were hanged for the price of a pig. It was believed that, after loosing the American colonies, England could turn a profit in Australia, they could not. It was hard to get into the interior and as a result, work camps became death camps, as the colonies could not sustain themselves, and shortly that was OK with Britain, better to kill the convicts slowly away from the eyes of family and friends. The death camps did little to lower the crime rate in England, and the convicts were so pressed that they resorted to canabalism often, in the camps. Then the interior of Australia was opened and the convicts were needed as farmers, with in the same generation the same convicts who were so dehumanised as to become canabals became judges police officers and politicians. The need for labourers created immagration from England and the crime rate droped. Now at the same time, why did England loose the American colonies, well, the rich planters, like Hamilton, were not alowed to industrialise, so they indulged in the drug deeling of their day, selling rum and whiskey, to create an ecconomy they could control, not unlike Nicky Barnes selling Heroin, and in order to mainstream that ecconomy, they rebelled, however, when the contenental army attempted to get an even shake in the new ecconomy, Shay's Rebellion, they were hanged by the aristocrates who rebelled to legalise their crimes. So it is not about complete poverty, it is about equal opportunity. Washington, Jefferson, Henry, slave owners and aristocrates spoke of the SLAVERY of English rule, as they could not compete equally with a rather inlightened government for its day. So if they could not be expected to behave, how can we hope for good behaveior from those in the US with such limits on opportunities that exist among the victems of innner city public schooling in the US. Lets stop concentrating on killing to keep people in line and democratize our ecconomy. that is it in a all too short nutshell
Larry


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 07:36 AM

Or Clinton bombing a factory that made medicines in Sudan to take our mind of Monica? There are a lot of murderers around that never get brought to trial.

Things that seem impossible and unrealistic in one part of the world and one part of history are just normal in some other places and times. Not having policemen on the streets with guns would seem like a crazy dream in some places and times. Not having prisons that make people worse seems like a crazy dream in some places and times. There are places and times where murder is a routine activity, and places and times where it is a rare and terrible occurrence.

It's too easy to think that the way it is in our place and our time is how it's always got to be.

And having executions only happens in a relatively few countries, and most of them are not very nice places (the exception on the whole being the USA.) The rest of the world gets along pretty well without them. Honest.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 06:18 AM

hey Doug, you mean like when Reagan invaded Granada to take our minds off Iran-Contre? or when George invaded Panama to take our minds off the resession?


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Terry K
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 02:37 AM

BK - I can't believe how ignored you have been - your 12.38 posting on the 24th says so much of the reality of crime.

I'm another to add to the minority here, I have more going for the victims of crime than for the perpetrators -mainly because the perpetrators get to CHOOSE whether to be involved in crime or not, whereas the victims have their rights of choice taken away from them by the criminals.

So I'd ask everyone to transcend the apple pie and the family Bible and get real.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: JamesJim
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 01:18 AM

I'm always late on these kinds of threads, mainly because I shy away from them (as long as I can). These thoughts keep coming to me and I can't avoid it anymore.

Here's the story (part true, part imagined) of two young men. One became a policeman, just like his father. He was from a good, but poor family. He wanted to save people from injustice. He had watched his father all of his young life and he was very proud. He listened intently to the stories his father would tell at night. He saw the agony on his father's face when he had witnessed death; when humanity had been inhumane. Yet, his father would go back the next day and the next and the next. He was so proud of his father. He wanted to become a policeman some day. And so he did.

The other young man wanted to join a gang. He wanted to be the leader of the gang. He too came from a good but poor family, but he made poor decisions with his life. His father, a common laborer who worked very hard to feed his family, tried to keep him from joining the gang. His mother pleaded with him not to join. They said he was a good boy, but he was associating with the wrong kind of people. Those bad boys would only corrupt him. At 12, just to prove his manhood, he stole a car. He wrecked it, was caught and served a few months in detention. At 13, he stole a gun. His first gun. At 14 he became brave enough to use his gun and he robbed a service station. He was caught and again was sentenced to a short stay in detention. He told his family he had changed. He said he was on the road to rehabilitation. They believed him. At 16 he got ahold of an assault rifle. He got it from a "friend." He traded a stolen video camera for it. At 17, he was dealing drugs and shaking down anyone in his pathway.

One dark night, the two young men met. The second young man, now the leader of a gang, had just shot another young member of a rival gang. The first young man, now 24 and in his first year as a police officer, made the scene just in time to see his young rival fleeing. He ordered him to stop and give up his weapon. Instead, the young gang leader stopped, turned and fired. The policeman fell. The gang member approached and shot him again, until he was dead.

One wore blue and one wore black. Both were poor. One decided to uphold the law and protect the public, the other, to become an outlaw. Both had guns. One issued, one no doubt stolen. One tried to stop a murder. One murdered. One wants mercy, the other was once merciful. One's parents want him to be saved. The other's parents want justice. The jury said guilty - put the young man to death. The young man said he did not get a fair trial. He continued to be more concerned about himself than anyone or anything else.

The judge contrasted the two lives. He said it wasn't the parent's fault. It wasn't societies fault. It wasn't the gun's fault. It wasn't the other gang member's fault. It was clearly the young man's fault. He should and now must take responsibility for his own actions. The judge formally sentenced him to death.

Could the young man be saved? Could he be rehabilitated? He says he can. He says he already is. I don't believe him, but it's so sad to see a young life end. "Dead man walking" is so appropriate. He could be 35 or 40 before he dies. There are thugs and then there are thugs. Can you be hardened at 17? Perhaps. I struggle with this whole issue, then I see guys like O.J. get away. If anyone deserves to die, it's him. I'll bet most people feel like me. If I were asked to vote straight up or down on the death penalty, I'd say yes. If I'm given extenuating circumstances, I suddenly am on the fence. Again, no answers. God help us. Peace to all. Jim


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: DougR
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 12:26 AM

Guest: Which are?

DougR


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 11:33 PM

No you don't. You just need another enemy to take your people's minds off the REAL problems of life.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: BK
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 11:04 PM

Many things in the real world are ugly beyong any reasonable explanation or comprehension. To those who would "8X8" or "throw away the key," or make 'em do "hard labor" (THAT one's REALLY a laugh!!!!).

Get a job in any prison system; work it a while - don't run away. Do your best to remain ethical & considerate, hard working.. Make damn sure you don't sink to the ethical level of the more dysfunctional among the inmate population. Then tell us what you think can REALLY happen.

Suffice it to say that it (8X8, etc) AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. It is truely not realistic.

Like treatment options for many biological diseases - diabetes mellitus comes to mind - there are NO good choices for dealing with many of the human race's sickest individuals. (& perhaps groups.. but ya gotta be careful.. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the very groups some have mentioned are eyeing the nuclear arsenal of the former Soviet Union.. [We need a folk song abt the Mullah's w/their fingers on the buttons..] sleep soundly, gang.)

Cheers, BK


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 08:11 PM

So. Does anyone have any strong feelings about this subject?

DougR


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 07:48 PM

How exceptional does something have to be before it ckunts as "unusual"? Sooner or later the minority of countries which still have Capital Punishment will drop it. And eventually it'll be so unusual that the US Constitution ban on "cruel and unusual puinishment" will kick in.

And even now I'm pretty sure that killing somebody after keeping them in jail for 19 years for a crime they may have committed when they were 17 is definitely an extremely unusual thing to do in any part of the world, including China, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan.

And I don't think you'd find that many people, even among supporters of capital punishment who wouldn't think it was cruel - even if they believed the cruelty was justified.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Mooh
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 07:17 PM

DougR,

Actually, I do think that "do unto others..." and "thou shalt not kill" were intended universally, for states, groups and individuals. States shouldn't be able to opt out of these, but that's my view, states being a group of individuals. That individuals don't adhere to these, means all the more that states should. In the end I can't change the world, but I can change myself and "my back yard". I can't enforce my views, but I can represent my views by word and action. Hopefully I can do this and die without regret, and with hope that I have been true to myself.

No minds have been changed? Perhaps. Opened? Yup.

Still mudcatting. Mooh.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: GUEST,Mbo_at_ECU
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 06:44 PM

Gandhi said "All through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall, always."

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 06:33 PM

kat - That was the gist of my first post. A discussion of the fairness or justice of our system misses the point. It's that old Ghandi-esque argument: You can't end violence through more violence. The karma of your application of justice reverberates and cannot be explained away with a "he had it coming".

There has to be a point where you stand up and ask the question: ARE WE NOT MEN?


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 05:04 PM

And that is still what is happening, Kendall, in the extreme poverty of the Muslim countries. Just finished the book, I think I mentioned above, about the state of women in those countries. Hands are cut off if a woman is caught wearing nail polish! Fingers are screwed together and eyes and ears are drilled with electric drills to extract false confessions of guilt. The right wing extremists wreak havoc among the poor and women, especially. I don't think going back to public executions or severe penalties for petty theft is what we should be doing. Somehow humankind needs to grab the next rung in the evolutionary ladder and climb it. There has to be a better way than going back.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 04:27 PM

In the story, Les Miserable, Jean val Jean was sentenced to 10 years in a galley (not to be confused with a cooking job) for stealing a loaf of bread. He stole it because his family was hungry. Period. In those days, there were the very rich and the dirt poor. The poor had NO OTHER OPTION. There was no welfare then, you stole, or you went hungry.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: GUEST,Potter
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 04:08 PM

It is doubtful that we will find redemption from our baser natures unless there is something forcing us, both individually and collectively, to face the consequences of the evil we do. We don't put someone to death because they are worse than us, we do it because they are JUST LIKE US and we desire the greatest possibility for them and us to realize our evil and turn from it. It's a bitter pill to swallow in an age where rationalization has allowed us to live with ourselves in our evil, not realizing that all the while it is escalating.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Mbo
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 03:43 PM

I'm telling you, ya gotta dig some holes in the Antartican permafrost and put them in it. Remember the Klingon dilithium mine penal colony on the ice asteroid Rura Penthe in Star Trek VI:The Undiscovered Country? Gives new meaning to the term "in the freezer"...


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 03:38 PM

Interesting post, Shambles:
In fact, you hit the nail on the head. In England, in the eighteenth cent. one was hanged for everyting from bigamy to pety theift. It did little to stop crime, but it did, nearly bring England to revolution, and transportation was introduced as a safty valve. You remind me to recomend to all who are interested in the historical basis for saying there is no deterant in Capitol punishment, the book Fatal Shore, about the settlement of Australia. The point of the book is that crime is more affected by equal opportunity than by punnishment.
All the best
Larry


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 03:05 PM

It would be a brave experiment to introduce the death penalty for 'minor' crimes like mugging, robbery, burglary, shoplifting and drink driving offences. If we did actually manage to quickly execute those convicted, the subsequent crime statistics would then demonstrate once and for all if capital punishment was a deterrent?

For these crimes, it may very well turn out to be a deterrent? Then we may find that we have many further problems?

One of the problems with executions on this scale would, be to find enough people willing to do the practical things like push the buttons, pull the levers and watch all these people die. It seems to be agreed that we are generally a more violent society but strangely there still appears to be a shortage of willing executioners? I wonder how many of those supporters of the death penalty would be willing to actually execute and continue to kill those convicted? ……Would you?

That is why we come up with all these 'infernal machines' to do the dirty work for us and to try and enable us and those unfortunate souls, involved in the process of being 'hit-men for the state', to sleep at night. A return to public executions with one person with sharp axe, would at least be a more honest approach?

There is no nice or clean way from the state to coldly take a person's life away. The attempts we presently make to achieve this are hypocritical and obscene.

I am generally in favour of compromise but on this issue, the results of that compromise are clearly unsatisfactory. On this issue, it is really a case of all or nothing.

Extract from the Daily Mail 17th March 2000.
A serial killer who sexually abused 100 boys, before strangling them and dissolving their cut-up bodies in acid has been sentenced to die in the same way. A judge in Pakistan yesterday told Javed Iqbal that he will be publicly strangled, cut into 100 pieces and dumped in a vat of acid.

Prosecutor Burhan Moaazam said the sentence on Iqbal was fitting as a warning to others. 'the accused was not a man, he was a beast', he said. 'What was announced by the learned judge was right for him'. However Pakistan's interior minister said such public executions were not permitted and would be challenged in the High Court. Moinudeen Halder said 'we are signatories to the Human Rights Commission. Such punishments are not allowed'.

The above was originally posted in this earlier thread Songs about capital punisment.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 01:48 PM

My dear friend DougR:
Unfortunately appeals are balenced against a notion called judicial eficency, by which notion the Supreme Court ruled that it was not unconstitutional to exicute a man in a case where DNA evidence proved that, beyond any doupt, the condememed man was innocent-, in Texes about four or five years ago if my memory serves, So, if this institutionalised culture of revenge now has corrupted to the point that in this land of freedom, the state can, without offending the Constituion, committ murder, for the sake of judical efficency, after a spesific number of appeals have been exhausted, well, pardon me if I say, this is no longer the nation I was born into. With some 87 innocent men killed by the state, and 24 or so proven innocent while on death row, let us stop making the argument that it is about the rightness or wrong of state killings, it is about certanty, humans cannot be certain enough to impower an uncaring state to kill.
Larry PS Would you trust someone who payed 50,000 for a toilet seat to have life and death power over you or your child's life :-0 or :-)


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 01:38 PM

Doug, I could be a real smart ass and say you ARE blind!! by the way, that was a very funny, and extremely subtle remark. I admire your wit. Now, the gas thing, if what you believe is true, that it is the fault of the government, how come it just happened in an election year? Who is looking into this price increase? a bunch of republicans? Kinda like sending Bugs Bunny to guard the carrots... The matter of expense to keep criminals behind bars, the fact is, it costs MORE to execute them what with decades on death row, and all those appeals. I say lock them up and literally, throw the key away. Someone mentioned having executions on TV? Have we all studied the decline and fall of the Roman empire? See any similarities?


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 11:03 AM

There was what I am sure is a scurrilous rumour that Texas was going to introduce an electric sofa to enable them to get rid of the backlog by executing people in threes. No, it couldn't really be true...?
RtS


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: DougR
Date: 24 Jun 00 - 11:42 AM

Mooh: I agree that it has been a good discussion. No minds were changed, however, on either side. "Thou shalt not kill" and "Do unto others", however, are rules that one would hope all individuals would practice. Unfortunately, not all people do. I am not certain myself that the writer of those Biblical verses was referring to the "State" when he wrote them either. I assume you do agree that the "State" has a legitimate roll in protecting the good guys from the bad ones. Es so?

Larry, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I was still greiving over a murder that occurred over thirty years ago. The greiving is over. I do regret that someone prevented my wife's mother from enjoying the pleasure of seeing her grandchildren grow up. That would have happened, of course, had she died an early natural death, but that wasn't the case. A man (we know that much) conciously took her life. Not with a gun (so we can't blame guns in this case), nor a knife (can't blame them either), but with his hands. He strangled her to death. In my opinion, society has a right to be protected from such people, and the only way to insure that is the case is execute them. Get them off the street. I do not believe society has the obligation to feed, clothe and shelter them for the rest of their lives. Obviously this is a minority opinion in the forum. So be it. If polls show that the pendulum of public opinion is swinging away from favoring capital punishment then so be it. I then will be counted among the minority rather than the majority. One last comment regarding Larry's posting: I never at anytime felt that I, personally, would extract "an eye or an eye, tooth for a tooth" if given the opportunity. And, since I assume you are a lawyer, I can understand that you would represent, if called upon, the butcher who slaughterd so many of your people. That is the role of the lawyer in our society and I think you should. I think the perpertrators of the kind of capital crimes we are discussing should have the absolutely best counsel possible. I agree that is not always the case. That is why we have the Appeals process. In the case of those sentenced to death (in the U.S. at least) the majority of those convicted take advantage of every Appeal possible. It's not a perfect system to be sure. But who knows of a better one?

I am confident that I changed no minds of any who have posted to this Thread. Frankly, that was not my purpose. I had my say, and am pleased that my minority veiws were read and did not result in any raging, irresponsible, flaming (yet). Peace.

DougR


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Brendy
Date: 24 Jun 00 - 11:41 AM

And there are, of course, people who have had more than 5 family members killed for no other reason than their religion, and who still do not support capital punishment.

To forgive is....

B.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Jun 00 - 11:17 AM

"The system is flawed in many ways but I think many more criminals avoid punishment than truly innocent people get punished by the system." Zonahobo, if I find myself railroaded and on the track to prison or execution- and I am innocent of any capital offense,I'm not going to be thinking, "Yes, they got the wrong person this time but on the whole they get the right person so I'm not going to complain." It matters to me!

I'm with those who simply don't see the right of anyone to commit the same act they object to. Especially in cold blood. As someone else has said, if someone breaks into my home, threatening the safety of me and mine, tough; they may end up dead; and at least I know I got the right person. But as Catspaw said, I will spend the rest of my life trying to come to terms with my act.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Jun 00 - 10:45 AM

Absolute and dead truth Shambles.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Jun 00 - 10:34 AM

However you deal with the perpetrator of a crime, it must be recognised that it is damage limitation. All the options are not good. Nothing that is subsequently done to that person, even if you have correctly identified them, will compensate or repair the harm caused to the victims of that crime.

Once this is finally accepted and also that the threat of capital punishment is not a deterrent, more emphasis can be placed on preventing the crimes from being committed?


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE IRON LADY (Phil Ochs)
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 00 - 09:35 AM

Here's a thirty-five year old perspective:

The Iron Lady
( Phil Ochs)



Have you seen the iron lady's charms
Legs of steel, leather on her arms
Taking on a man to die
A life for a life, an eye for an eye
And death's the iron lady in the chair



Stop the murder, deter the crimes away
Only killing shows that killing doesn't pay
Yes that's the kind of law it takes
Even though we make mistakes
And sometimes send the wrong man to the chair



In the death row waiting for their turn
No time to change, not a chance to learn
Waiting for someone to call
Say it's over after all
They won't have to face the justice of the chair



Just before they serve him one last meal
Shave his head, they ask him how he feels
Then the warden comes to say goodbye
Reporters come to watch him die
Watch him as he's strapped into the chair



And the chaplain, he reads the final prayer
Be brave my son, the Lord is waiting there
Oh murder is so wrong you see
Both the Bible and the courts agree
That the state's allowed to murder in the chair



In the courtroom, watch the balance of the scales
If the price is right, there's time for more appeals
The strings are pulled, the switch is stayed
The finest lawyers fees are paid
And a rich man never died upon the chair



Have you seen the iron lady's charms
Legs of steel, leather on her arms
Taking on a man to die
A life for a life, an eye for an eye
That's the iron lady in the chair


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Subject: Lyr Add: DEAD MAN WALKING BLUES
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Jun 00 - 09:23 AM

Dead Man Walking Blues

My lips are dry, I can't talk
I've got to steel myself for one last walk
I can't run with these chains, you see
There's no hurry, they won't start without me
Dead man walking, the star of the show
Dead man walking, away from death row
Dead man waking, walking slow

You may say, all my life I've been no good
I would have done better, if only I could
But up to now no one noticed me
Now I see myself on the T.V.
Dead man walking, the star of the show
Dead man walking, away from death row
Dead man waking, walking slow

My performance may make the news
But I won't be around, to read the reviews
Ain't up to me who they invite
Who will watch my first and last night?
Dead man walking, the star of the show
Dead man walking, away from death row
Dead man waking, walking slow

The good book may say it but it don't mean it's the truth
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth
I did wrong on that fateful night
But two wrongs, they won't make it right
Dead man walking, the star of the show
Dead man walking, away from death row
Dead man waking, walking slow

My deed was in the heat of that hour
But it don't excuse the abuse of my power
But the cleaner you try to make my death seem
Just seems to make it more obscene!
Dead man walking, the star of the show
Dead man walking, away from death row
Dead man waking, walking slow

Dead man walking, the star of the show
Dead man walking, away from death row
Dead man waking, walking slow

Roger Gall 1998


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Jun 00 - 09:00 AM

My dear DougR
As to equating the state killing Christ and killings here in the US, the Rosenburgs were guilty of the same crime, subverting the state and the Rosenburgh where likely both innocent and did not kill anyone. As to identifing with killers or the victems, let me pass on something which might help you to understand in terms of your own loss how I feel. Two events in my life brought home my stand on capitol punishment. The first was the stabbing of my father, some eleven or nineteen times, I forget the exact number now, some thirty some years later. I was sixteen and away for the weekend. So as not to worry me, my father, who came within moments of bleeding to death, insisted I not be called. I was met at the door and taken to my dad, when I returned. He could not move, as he was imobilized by bandages. He was stabbed in the back and the neck. I was in shock and angrey, my dad, who was a writer and ex-coal miner, a powerful and unique political thinker, who could only whisper at that point said to me, "don't you be more hurt than I was. Don't let this change the way you look at the world. Don't let it change your politics." Later I found out the man who murdered my mother's whole family, indeed her people, Romania's Roma "Gypsy" population, was alive and well and living as a bishop in New York. As you could emagine, my first impluse was to exact vengence. I then realized to do that would be to say that those of us he killed were no better than he was, only that he had the power to act on his murderous impulses. As a tribute to the innocents he killed, I often said in law school, and stick to that belief, that I would even defend Valerian Triffa, the butcher who killed my family, so Triffa may know that in his shoes, those he murdered whould prove better people.
well thats it
all the best and greaving for your loss,
Larry


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Mooh
Date: 24 Jun 00 - 08:17 AM

DougR, Besides "Thou shalt not kill." and "Do unto others..." ...which I do not know how to read in a nonliteral way.

Good discussion btw. Thanks. Mooh.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: DougR
Date: 24 Jun 00 - 01:18 AM

Spaw, my friend. I give you the last word.

DougR


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Jun 00 - 12:56 AM

Doug my friend, I can understand your feelings although to experience themis certainly something else. But to continue our dialogue, I cannot nor would not try to justify the crucifixion of Jesus, nor could I view his "crime" as really being a crime at all. But in those times they were real and the punishment given by a "justice" system that I cannot justify either, was appropriate also to that time.

But as I said earlier above, we have to some degree progressed. And as we continue this process, we are starting to see a worldwide change in ideas and attitudes regarding capital punishment. In these times it is still viewed as suitable, but the times they are a changin'. Good, fine, intelligent people still support the death penalty as good, fine, intelligent, folks believed in crucifixion in the times of Jesus, and as good, fine, intelligent, people believed, not so long ago, that ownership of other human beings was an okay thing too.

Times change. Cultures change. Religions change. Civilization evolves. Sometime down the road, perhaps others will look upon us as we view those from previous times today.

Zonahobo......If you point a gun at me and I have a gun, I am going to try to kill you before you kill me. Doesn't make it right though. I will rationalize your death and I will try to remain mentally well, but it will continue to bother me. If the situation was as compelling as the one you describe, I will feel better, but the angst will still be there. A percentage of vets were troubled like that after WWII, but far more after VietNam. Point being, self-preservation is a basic need, but the reason will determine how well we adjust.

Times are times.......death is death........We still are not far from the trees.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: DougR
Date: 24 Jun 00 - 12:45 AM

Well, zonahobo, welcome to the minority (on the Mudcat that is). Don't know why it is so difficult for some folks to align themselves with the victims rather than the killers, but then I assume that they assume no one, ever, is guilty even if judged to be so by their peers. I suppose civilized folks (and that don't include us) should be content with a little wrist slapping and chiding those convicted of capital crimes with "you really shouldn't be doing that."

kat, my love, my attitude really isn't shaped by the terrible thing that happened to my mother-in-law. She was just one of thousands (millions?) of victims whose killer has never been found. I shouldn't have personalized the argument. I do think, however, if those so opposed to capital punishment experienced the loss of a loved one from a murder, it might give a bit more credibility to their argument. Perhaps there are those out there who have and if so, we just simply aren't on the same wave length.

However, those who are so anti-capital punishment should never complain about paying taxes. Those taxes pay for the care and feeding of those people who live thier lives out in prison rather than being executed.

DougR


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: BK
Date: 24 Jun 00 - 12:38 AM

As I've said before; I work w/these guys every day. For our lifetimes, in our democracy - badly flawed as it is - we will NEVER put the vast majority of these guys in an "8X8" indefinitely, nor have them work as in a commune. It AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. They understand & pervert the system better than most lawyers & a very significant percentage will not work under any circumstance, & you can't make 'em work! They refuse, period. They are parasites, big time, & buddy, you'd better believe they've got RIGHTS!!!

Whoever said the murderers, child molesters & rapists very frequently serve less time than, for example, the non-violent professional bank robbers, who mostly don't even carry guns, was absolutely right on! And when you CAN keep them locked up for life it can be VERY cruel.

In some cases it REALLY drives them frighteningly, & pitiably, crazy. It would be safer for society, &, I often think, even kinder to some of the criminals, to execute them. These guys OFTEN kill other inmates & sometimes guards as well.

The main problem I have w/capital punishment is the massive dishonesty, prejudice & plain, bungling, idiotic incompetance that frequently hamstrings the effective, scientifically valid investigation & prosecution of these crimes. This is often how the innocent get on death row. (Even when guilty, they often die at 39, having killed at 17, due the lengthy appeals process...)

As an aside; often these chaps may be innocent of the specific murder they are accused of, but are serious carreer criminals, none-the-less. Some have bluntly told me so! One casually told me he'd killed "about 2 dozen" folks they couldn't convict him for & that he was convicted on a "phoney" charge. He & many others do not necessarily kill in a fit of rage; that assertion just ain't always so.. Many kill because they feel like it. It's a way of life for them. Some get their kicks inflicting terror & pain. There are endless variants. These are the cancer cells of society.

I do think the death sentance should be reserved for the massively guilty & the evidence & case proceedings examined for compenency by truly expert independant specialists before going foreward. Will this ever happen? I doubt it.

Then, of course there's the OJ case - in my educated opinion a man could hardly be more guilty & clearly got away w/murder. At least our society has now allowed wealthy, famous & well connected black man to join the ranks of well heeled white men who did likewise. Real social progress, huh?

Cheers, BK, who looks in the eye every day, not only the regular guys who made regretable mistakes they are "paying for," but also consumate, cold, calculating evil, in every variant & permutation that you could imagine, & many you couldn't imagine.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: zonahobo
Date: 24 Jun 00 - 12:29 AM

Doug.. this was earlier posting .. guess us Arizonans have similar concerns:I'm with the beyond all doubt ultimate punishment for the ultimate crime group. I think as a society it's justified as self defense. I will not defend the right of a murderer to murder again. If someone was breaking down your front door intent on rape and murder of your whole household and you have "deadly force" at your disposal, do you defend your family? The system is flawed in many ways but I think many more criminals avoid punishment than truly innocent people get punished by the system. Most of the innocents (us) are much more likely to be victimized by criminals. Where do we want to spend what limited time we have? Should we be striving to protect and help the many more innocent, victimized by crime, members of our society or try to tear down what little protection we have.


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