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Lyr Add: The Next to Die in Texas

katlaughing 24 Jun 00 - 12:27 AM
DougR 23 Jun 00 - 11:54 PM
catspaw49 23 Jun 00 - 10:53 PM
DougR 23 Jun 00 - 10:42 PM
GUEST,W. S. Gilbert 23 Jun 00 - 09:51 PM
Brendy 23 Jun 00 - 09:10 PM
Mooh 23 Jun 00 - 09:07 PM
GUEST,BBsBlues@btinternet.com 23 Jun 00 - 07:53 PM
catspaw49 23 Jun 00 - 07:32 PM
Jim the Bart 23 Jun 00 - 07:13 PM
InOBU 23 Jun 00 - 05:54 PM
DougR 23 Jun 00 - 04:35 PM
Mbo 23 Jun 00 - 04:29 PM
SINSULL 23 Jun 00 - 04:02 PM
katlaughing 23 Jun 00 - 02:22 PM
Jed at Work 23 Jun 00 - 02:13 PM
Áine 23 Jun 00 - 01:51 PM
Mbo 23 Jun 00 - 01:37 PM
catspaw49 23 Jun 00 - 01:17 PM
Brendy 23 Jun 00 - 01:16 PM
Amergin 23 Jun 00 - 01:15 PM
Marion 23 Jun 00 - 01:14 PM
Brendy 23 Jun 00 - 01:12 PM
katlaughing 23 Jun 00 - 01:09 PM
Amergin 23 Jun 00 - 01:04 PM
Brendy 23 Jun 00 - 12:56 PM
Jed at Work 23 Jun 00 - 12:53 PM
Jed at Work 23 Jun 00 - 12:48 PM
Ringer 23 Jun 00 - 12:44 PM
katlaughing 23 Jun 00 - 11:08 AM
GUEST,Governor George W. Bush 23 Jun 00 - 11:03 AM
Brendy 23 Jun 00 - 10:57 AM
Brendy 23 Jun 00 - 10:32 AM
GUEST,trucker dave 23 Jun 00 - 09:58 AM
Jim the Bart 23 Jun 00 - 09:49 AM
Mbo 23 Jun 00 - 09:35 AM
JedMarum 23 Jun 00 - 09:31 AM
Brendy 23 Jun 00 - 08:33 AM
Mbo 23 Jun 00 - 08:30 AM
Brendy 23 Jun 00 - 08:24 AM
Mbo 23 Jun 00 - 07:42 AM
keltcgrasshoppper 23 Jun 00 - 07:34 AM
kendall 23 Jun 00 - 07:29 AM
IanC 23 Jun 00 - 06:08 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jun 00 - 05:13 AM
Brendy 23 Jun 00 - 04:18 AM
Brendy 23 Jun 00 - 04:14 AM
Amergin 23 Jun 00 - 03:46 AM
Fiddlin' Big Al 23 Jun 00 - 03:45 AM
Brendy 23 Jun 00 - 03:21 AM
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Jun 00 - 12:27 AM

Spawmyluv, that is some of the finest writing I've ever read. Thanks darlin'. Mooh, very, very good points, thanks to you, too.

DougeR, I am sorry I didn't get a chance to post this earlier. It must have been and probably still is very painful to live with your mother-in-law having been murdered. Thank you for sharing that with us. I am sorry for the tragedy. I also have to say, for all that I wish to abolish the death penalty to protect anyone who may possibly be innocent, if faced with what you have experienced and if they had found the person and knew beyond all doubt that person was the murderer, I think I would have a very hard time not wanting them put to death. I like to think that my beliefs which go mostly along the lines of Buddha, would help me through something so painful, but, as Spaw said, we are not that far from the tree, and the high emotions and feeling of impotence I know I would feel, would probably take over and I would want stark revenge.

kat


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: DougR
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 11:54 PM

Spaw: Equating the crucifixtion of Christ with modern day execution of people found guilty of capital crimes is still questionable in my opinion. Christ never took another person's life. The crimes he was charged with have nothing to do with modern day capital punishment. Would Christ have been sentenced to death under present day laws? No, I don't think so! But, respectfully, I submit that you are comparing apples with oranges.

If there are passages in the Bible that suggest a prohibition of capital punishment, I am not aware of them. If you or others disagree, I'd like to read your arguments. On the other hand, I hasten to add that I do not accept the writings in the Bible in a literal sense. If I did, I would be blind.

DougR


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 10:53 PM

Well Doug, I didn't use that analogy, but.......

Jesus was in violation of the law.
People then paid taxes and had a judicial system.
He was found guilty of the crime as charged.
He was metered out punishment considered to be commensurate with that crime.

We may not agree with their system of justice, the ideas of the time, or the punishment, but perhaps 2000 years from now, someone will question our acts, in this time, with this system, in the same way.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: DougR
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 10:42 PM

Anybody here have anything to say (good or bad) about the people who have suffered as a result of the actions of those folks the majority of you are willing to let live? I assume, since you feel the way you do, you are also willing to pay the taxes In the U.S. we have a trial system which may not be perfect, but I think it's better than the average system. Are mistakes made? Yes. Should every effort be made to insure that the person convicted receives a fair trial with good counsel? Yes. The punishment, however, should fit the crime.

I have no idea where those of you who equate the crucifiction of Christ with a cold blooded murder's execution are coming from.

DougR


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Subject: Lyr Add: I'VE GOT A LITTLE LIST (Gilbert&Sullivan)
From: GUEST,W. S. Gilbert
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 09:51 PM

Why stop with murderers & rapists??
Song-Ko-Ko with Chorus of Men:

As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list-I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed-who never would be missed!
There's the pestilential nuisances who write for autographs--
All people who have flabby hands and irritating laughs--
All children who are up in dates, and floor you with 'em flat--
All persons who in shaking hands, shake hands with you like that--
And all third persons who on spoiling téte-a-tétes insist--
They'd none of 'em be missed-they'd none of 'em be missed!

He's got 'em on the list-he's got 'em on the list;
And they'll none of 'em be missed-they'll none of 'em be missed.
There's the banjo serenader, and the others of his race,
And the piano-organist-I've got him on the list!
And the people who eat peppermint and puff it in your face,
They never would be missed-they never would be missed!
Then the idiot who praises, with enthusiastic tone,
All centuries but this, and every country but his own;
And the lady from the provinces, who dresses like a guy,
And who "doesn't think she waltzes, but would rather like to try";
And that singular anomaly, the lady novelist--
I don't think she'd be missed-I'm sure she'd not be missed!

He's got her on the list-he's got her on the list;
And I don't think she'll be missed-I'm sure she'll not
be missed!

And that Nisi Prius nuisance, who just now is rather rife,
The Judicial humorist-I've got him on the list!
All funny fellows, comic men, and clowns of private life-
They'd none of 'em be missed-they'd none of 'em be missed.
And apologetic statesmen of a compromising kind,
Such as-What d'ye call him--Thing'em-bob, and likewise-Never-mind,
And 'St-'st--'st-and What's-his-name, and also You-know-who-
The task of filling up the blanks I'd rather leave to you.
But it really doesn't matter whom you put upon the list,
For they'd none of 'em be missed-they'd none of 'em be missed!
 


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 09:10 PM

Nice one 'Spaw & Mooh

B.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Mooh
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 09:07 PM

My $0.02 (Cdn funds):

I came to this thread a little late, and much of my thought on the matter has already been expressed. But since everyone seems to be weighing in with their feelings, here goes nothing.

State sanctioned execution violates my very personal feelings about how to treat one another. Those feelings are based largely on "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", and the early (in life) realization that we so very often misjudge that the risk of being wrong, even within the capital punishment ethic, is so great that innocent lives are lost.

Further, I believe that if serious and radical attempts to train, rehabilitate, reform, educate, cure, council, and incarcerate were undertaken, a greater good would be served by the eventual release of validated and enlightened individuals. Warehousing people in prisons serves no purpose and only embitters the prisoner. However I also believe that "life" should mean the remaining lifetime of the offender assuming an appeal hasn't succeeded, and that most sentances are too short. Incarceration should include, as someone else pointed out, production of essentials and consumables required in prisons, by prisoners, not as slaves but as if they were commune workers.

Expensive? Yes. But since when has it been cheap to buy our way out of our mistakes as a society? My fear is that capital punishment doesn't really make a problem go away, and it reduces its practitioners to killers also, except that they're shielded by the law. (Btw, if it's legal, it doesn't mean it's right or just, but that's another thread.)

Last, I think it's important that the realized causes of crime be addressed by society in the hopes of reducing it. There's our famous gun control threads of course. Grinding poverty, failing education, illicit drugs, greed, moral decay, organized crime, and on and on and on...include the seven deadlies here...Generations will pass before success can be measured, but the quick fix of capital punishment doesn't get us there any sooner.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: GUEST,BBsBlues@btinternet.com
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 07:53 PM

I'm not a devout Christian or anything, but I have a gut feeling that life is sacrosanct. Mr Bush, if you're a Christian and a believer in the Bible, then how can you go against one of the 10 commandments...Thou Shalt Not Kill? Mr Bush, you have taken lives, against the teachings of your Bible.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 07:32 PM

We are not so far out of the trees.

Cultures and civilizations have come and gone, each has progressed a bit along the way. But we are not so far out of the trees.

Expecting and extracting a pound of flesh is a time worn standard and not one which will easily disappear. The crimes may change for each of us, but we are all still susceptible to those feelings that call for us to strike back, to retaliate, to take something for our anger and our grief. We are not so far out of the trees.

We still find it difficult to admit we are wrong on many issues because the methods that worked in the past are time honored and play to our instincts. We have grown and prospered, we have continued to evolve. Yet, rights are still only granted if we fight for them daily. Otherwise the rights still go only to the strongest. We are not so far out of the trees.

I want to live to see a time that children are granted the same basic rights to which they are granted as adults. Rights to life, to freedom, to pursuing the joys of life and carrying the responsibility for giving others the same, should be attainable. Freedom from bigotry and hatred will continue to be a goal for our children, possibly theirs. Freedom is still a vision, for it is now only illusory at best. But we can shake the illusion of freedom and go on to enjoy instead its truth and its reality. That time will come if we continue to challenge our beliefs instead of accepting them as law. But the fight will be ours to make and it must continue.

We are not so far out of the trees.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 07:13 PM

I wish to amend my previous post. The word "barbaric" was poorly chosen. An execution like last night's is not a barbaric act. It is an exercise in the administration of death that is peculiar to people who carry the veneer of civilization. It is cold-blooded, calculated, considered, and administered with deliberate skill. It is perverse in it's civility. A barbarian, killing in response to outrage, in a world where death is imminent, seems less twisted than "justice" administered 19 years after the fact, to a man who was barely more than a child when the crime was committed. Nothing good has come from this act. Just one more dead man.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 05:54 PM

Where to begin, other than to remind so many Christians who are for the death penalty that the state nailed him to a cross. What more can be said, we humans can not have perfect justice until we are omnipotent and that, I don't see happening, so let's agree not to do that which cannot be undone, for fear that we do not treat the least of us as we are expected to treat Him. It has been said, look for Him among the least of you and I look for him, on the streets of our cities and on death row. For those of you who need your pound of flesh, here is a suggestion to the rest of us who do not BOYCOTT THE BASTARDS! Withold the purchace of services, do not vist and revile those states and nations that kill. Let them wallow in their hatred alone. Boycotts helped to end aparthide here and in Africa starting with the great Philladelpia boycot at the turn of the centry. Sacco and Vensetti were not the only innocents murdered. Remember young Willie Francis? A teenager who servived Florida's electric chair, who said afterwards, God saved me because I am innocent. The Supreme Court said, it is not unconstitutional to exicute him again, and they did. The last thing he heard was some big grinning camp guard waving a brick in his face telling him that if he did not die, he would bash his skul with the brick. He was proven innocent after his succesful exicution. To the poster who called for the death penilty for rape, how can you forget the Scottsboro boys how spent most of their lives in jail for a rape that never happened. As to the poster who said that was crule and unusual as death is more humain, well, you would have to ask the survivors of our death rows, and there are many of them, aquitted and proven innocent after decades of living on borrowed time. Ask them if they would have rather had a quick trip to the electic chair. Enough said... BOYCOTT!!!
Love and kisses...
Larry


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: DougR
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 04:35 PM

Yes, Kendall, I hear you. It would be unthinkable, of course, to suggest that government red tape and a multitude of federal regulations imposed on those same corporations by our government might be contribibuting to the high cost of gasoline. Right? The Federal Government can do no wrong, of course.

As to capital punishment, I come down on the side of the majority in this country, and share Bald Eagle and Jed's views. I would not back away for a minute from watching them put the needle in the man's arm who murdered my mother-in-law. They never found him of course.

DougR


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Mbo
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 04:29 PM

Heh heh...for ultimate redemption, check this out..heh heh heh...

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 04:02 PM

The penguins in Antarctica deserve better.

And
Until our legal system can NOT be bought (I am thinking specifically of the Kennedy relative able to avoid prosecution for murder solely on the basis of his contacts and the OJ fiasco), the death penalty is unacceptable.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 02:22 PM

Marion, thanks for the Tolkein quote, just beautiful. My son had a kitten he named after Gandolf.

Jed, thanks, I think we are at least near the same page in some respects, maybe different chapters or paragraphs.:-)

someone said and was requoted as saying, "granted today, things like the forty hour work week, overtime, medical care, and other benefits." I'd like to say that many, many Americans do not take those things for granted because they do not have them at all. Roger works many mroe than 40 hours per week, receives no overtime, only gets one week vacation after however many years (going on 4.5), and while he has health benefits, I am denied any, from whatever insurance company, for pre-existing condition, as is my neice who is diabetic and we all make too much to qualify for any government assistance.

The struggle for worker's rights continues but is almost non-existent in right-to-work states like Wyoming. Workers can still be let go with no notice, no explanation, most are paid minimum wage...we need someone like Big Mick!

Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Jed at Work
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 02:13 PM

kat - yes, I am concerned that errors can be made in the case of detah penalty application; likewise even in jail sentences. I hope that the processes we put in place (our justice system), after years of careful fine tuning, and application - and the best intentions of those working the those processes will prevent miscarriages of justice. I am not foolish enough to believe that errors never happen, but pray those occurrances are extremely rare, and that we, as a society remain vigilant to keep them in check.

Áine - nice poem, heart felt lyrics. Even if I disagree with some of its content, I too feel sympathy for the down trodden, and anger at those who would wash their hands to avoid difficult decisions.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Áine
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:51 PM

As one who usually doesn't stick a toe into the political discussions on this forum, I have to say that I'm surprised at the number of comments on this thread; but, also pleased that everyone has remained reasonable and calm about such an emotional subject.

As with any difficult and painful subject facing a society, no one side is totally right and no one side is totally wrong. Compassion and compromise don't have to be enemies. Keep talking my friends. Well done.

-- Áine


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Mbo
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:37 PM

Marion, thanks...I love Tolkien like a fiend! "For even the very wise cannot see all ends...."

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:17 PM

Brendy, that's about as succinct a way of putting it that I can imagine. Well stroked.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:16 PM

Don't worry, man, many people do. *BG*

B.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Amergin
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:15 PM

Oh ok, sorry I must have misunderstood you somewhere down the line.

Amergin


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Marion
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:14 PM

I'd like to quote a little bit from Tolkien. A little background for those who haven't read it yet: in the first book, Bilbo (a good guy) had the opportunity and motive to kill Gollum (a bad guy), but refrained. Later in the story, Gollum is back and presenting a serious threat to Frodo and Gandalf (other good guys).

Their conversation:

Frodo: What a pity Bilbo did not stab that vile creature when he had a chance!

Gandalf: Pity? It was pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and mercy: not to strike without need.

Frodo: I do not feel any pity for Gollum. He deserves death.

Gandalf: Deserves death? I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And many that die deserve life. Can you give that to them? Then be not so eager to deal out death in the name of justice.

In a sense it's similar to what Jesus said, "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone." Maybe the question is not who deserves death, but who deserves the right to inflict it. If I'm not the One who can give life, who am I to give death?

Marion


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:12 PM

"Many are the unmarked graves that dot this free country of ours (USA) of those that fought for things that we take for granted today, things like the forty hour work week, overtime, medical care, and other benefits."

That was why Sacco and Vanzetti died, and why I quoted the song.

I don't believe that we have the right to convert justice into a needle and shoot it into somebody's arm. That's all!!

B.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:09 PM

Jed, very well put, but don't you think there is ever room for mistakes on the part of the state etc? There have been many cases, lately, whcih have proven that people who've been on death row are innocent and have been released.

I am not defending any crimes Mr. Graham may have committed, just wanting to point out that there seemed to be some good reasons for him to get another chance and possibly receive life imprisonment rather than death. Being only 17 when he was charged with this crime, makes it awfully close to chances of him being charged as a child, not an adult, for starters.

I DO agree that Life needs to mean Life. I also believe our prisons need to become self-sufficient, with inmates growing and processing their own food, making their own clothes, i.e. paying their way, to the best of their ability.

If one innocent person is saved through lack of a death penalty, then I believe having none is justified.

Thank you,

kat


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Amergin
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:04 PM

Brendy, if your point about the similarity between the two cases was death, then we all have something in common. Personally, I think the rape charge should have been enough to swing him. I think all rapists and child molesters should die, instead of just getting a couple of years in prison with visits to the shrink. They do it once chances are they'll do it again. But then again, I'm a barbarian.

Amergin


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:56 PM

Well, TG England got rid of it, otherwise half of us would be dead now

B


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Jed at Work
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:53 PM

agreed Bald Eagle - succinctly put!


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Jed at Work
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:48 PM

kat - I am certain that you, and many others research issues deeper then Tom Brockaw's surface level facts. I don't mean to lump everybody into the 'sound bite' category.

My point about most of us not being in a position to 'know better' is that we have developed a careful, goal oriented process in our country that we call a system of justice. That system is our society's best attempt to secure the truth in such matters as the crimes for which Mr Graham was accused, and to prescribe punishment (or in some cases remedial action). The formal processes of our judicial system, the attorneys, judges and jurys, all of whom I can only assume acted in good faith - have determined that the facts of the case warranted Mr Graham's conviction. The case has been tried, retried and revisited many, many times, and always with the same conclusion. I can think of nothing that I've heard that would make me think those people, using those formal processes aren't in a better position then me to decide Mr Graham's fate.

Additionally, the state of Texas has determined that the death penalty may be applied in cases such as Mr Graham's and in fact, the courts did apply that punishment in this case. Again, even though I may or may not have come to the same conclusion, this is the law of the land, and still a majority position among Texans (and indeed Americans).

In short, 1) the best processes we have developed over many years, has been applied by concienscious people, and their conclusion was that Mr Graham was guilty of the crimes for which he was tried. I am in no position to say otherwise. 2) the state whose laws govern(ed) Mr Graham and me, has stated that its majority of citizens value the use of the death penalty - and applied that penalty in Mr Graham's case. You and I may be tasked with making life and death decsions in our life time (abortion, pulling the plug on a loved one, self defense, etc) and God willing, we are quite capable of making those decisions - but this life and death decision is one that the state makes. Our opinions in the matter come down to the way we vote.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Ringer
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:44 PM

I hesitate before making any contribution to this debate, because the tenor of forgoing posts leads me to suspect that my views will not be popular, and I think that my views are also easily misunderstood. I believe that the death penalty is sometimes appropriate.

Firstly, is any punishment meted out by the powers that be just unless "beyond all doubt"? Is it OK for someone to be gaoled for 20 years if there is doubt that he is guilty? And was not this recently executed man found guilty by a legally constituted court, with a jury of his peers who knew the likely outcome of their "Guilty" verdict?

Secondly, I don't believe that executing someone who has been found guilty of murder by a legally constituted court is a case of two wrongs making a right. The initial murder was a wrong, but the execution of a murderer is (trembling, I say it) a good thing. Being human is being responsible for our wrong actions just as much as for our achievements, and being responsible involves being punished when we're found out. The punishment should fit the crime, however; I can think of no crime other than murder deserving of the death penalty.

Thirdly, I do not think that justice is served by keeping a man on Death Row for nineteen years. That, not his execution, is a cruel and unusual treatment.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 11:08 AM

KGH, glad you checked out that site. Thanks. I've done several op/ed pieces on their work and really do believe, "we, the people" can use the Internet to make a difference in politics.

Jed, some of us do NOT get any of our news from television soundbites...as a columnist, I research as many different ways as possible before forming an opinion, including what I consider the more unbiased reporting of NPR, BBC, and other world news organisations.

Kevin, I am just finishing up a book called "Price of Honor" by journalist Jan Goodwin, who spent four years living in Muslim countries, researching and interviewing women and men from all walks of life about the oppression of the fundamentalist Islam movements in all of the Middle East countries. Although it was published a few years ago, I know from other research I've done, that it is still fairly accurate. I have not read of any punishment there that would be as humane as being strapped to a gurney and having a needle inserted, in Saudi Arabia or elsewhere. The atrocities carried out for so-called justice, by the extremists who've taken over, are almost unspeakable.

kat


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: GUEST,Governor George W. Bush
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 11:03 AM

Hey, if you're at all tempted to vote against me because of the death penalty issue, just remember that Vice-President Gore is also a strong proponent of the death penalty. As is President Clinton, I might add.

You didn't hear Mr. Gore or Mr. Clinton speaking up on behalf of Graham.

W.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 10:57 AM

I'm just waiting for it to make it's debùt on 'Showtime', with an drooling Don King introducing the night's attraction, interrupted only by adverts from Burger King and McDonalds, enticing all of us to sample their 'Jailhouse Specials' or whatever.
Who knows, Mike Tyson could eventually realise his true vocation as MC of such attractions.

That would be fun, now, wouldn't it?

B.
(What's good for business is good!)


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 10:32 AM

Have a shufty in here

B.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: GUEST,trucker dave
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 09:58 AM

kill 'em all and let god sort them out.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 09:49 AM

Aine -
I read your post last night and it reached me. I have been ambivalent about the death penalty. After all, we all die eventually. And I have always been swayed by the argument that in many ways the death penalty is less cruel than life in our penal system. But I have decided to oppose the death penalty because of the barbarism that is at its root. I oppose it not because, as some believe, an innocent man died. An innocent man died nineteen years ago and that shouldn't go unredressed in some way. I oppose it because it is barbaric to kill. And we as a species need to aspire to something better if we wish to have a better world. It has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with evolution, in a sense. I choose not to kill because I believe that that is one thing that I can do to make the world a better place. And it is hypocritical to ask someone to kill in my name, whether they have been sworn in or not.

I realize what a can o'worms this opens up for me. After all, there are all the other related philosphical dominos to consider - abortion, euthenasia, even vegetarianism. But those are not the topic here and I will need to deal with them in their time if I want to be a complete person, rather than a complete fraud. And I will. On the other side of the coin, I also understand that one man saying this doesn't make the world a good place. It will only work if everyone believes that violence towards others - whether physical, mental or emotional - is equally barbaric and has no place in the world that we wish to have someday. If no one murdered anyone, or raped them, or stole their self-respect, or reduced them to a statistical economic necessity (a certain amount of unemployment is, after all, good for the economy)maybe the question of whether a man like Gary Graham deserved to die. Or whether we had the right and the responsibility to kill him.

Understand one thing about my decision that the death penalty has no place in a civilized society - anyone is free to disagree with me and I can't find fault in that decision. We live in a barbarous age, only slightly less barbarous than those that preceded ours. "An eye for an eye" works, but only up to a point. My decision on this is a leap of faith. It is predicated on the belief that mankind can become better than it is. Viscerally, I believe that those guys who dragged that guy behind a truck until he was dead should have the same done to them - publicly, as a warning to anyone who would ever consider such an act. But that would just confirm our worst beliefs about ourselves - that life is cruel and short and it is only the circumstances of our own sad end that are left to be decided.

Thank you, Aine, for dragging me out of my lethargy to face this question one more time. I have a deep and abiding regret that Gary Graham had to die because Mr. Lambert was murdered nineteen years ago and we needed "closure". I fear the ramifications of what I have now seen to be just more killing. But, I can't ignore it anymore or debate it away. We should not kill. Period.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Mbo
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 09:35 AM

Well put, my friend.

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: JedMarum
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 09:31 AM

Now let's keep some persepective on the issue at hand. The young man in question has admitted to 13 victims of his gun weilding viloence - those admitted crimes included; attempeted murder, rape, battery and armed robbery. We are not talkng about a good kid gone bad because he was poor. I was poor. I never consider shooting, robbing or raping anyone to aleviate my poverty, likewise neither did many, many other poor people. Poverty does not justify lack or respect for human dignity!

The death penalty should be applied with careful constraint, perhaps with the litmus test Spaw suggests - beyond all doubt - but let's also keep in mind that this young man's case was tried in court, reviewed and retried in other courts - his story has been told and retold to many of our professional courts and judges - ALL have agreed with the original court's findings after reviewing in detail the case and its background. Why do we suppose we know better after reviewing all the TV news sound bites?

Governor Bush may be someone we want to skewer for this issue, but the fact is; he remained powerless to stop the execution. Texas governors have very little power, compared to Governor's of other states. Bush had to rely on the findings of the parole review board, and could not overturn their decision.

The death penalty is not, in my estimation, a valid deterent for crime, nor is it 'justice' in the sense of "you did a bad thing, now we're going to do a bad thing to you" - it is a ritual act. It says 'we (the state) have a final act that brings retribution to society at large for your crime' - someone in this thread said, human sacrifice - that's probably not too far from the truth. And someone else said "babaric," again, probably not far off the mark, as in base level human needs - The death penalty is a final act to bring retribution for extreme transgessions against human-kind. It is a ritual. I believe it still has a place in our world.

Finally - I am certain that death is not the worst thing that can happen to you. I am the only one in this world who can bring sanctity to my life. I am the only one who know the worth of my own existence, in the light of how the world has treated me, and with the certain knowledge of how I responded to it. Even wrongful death at the hands of a mistaken state who believes me a murderer when I am not cannot take that dignity away from me, when they take my life. I do not believe Mr Graham was wrongfully accused, many, many people have looked at his story in much more detail, and with much more care than I will ever be able to do ... but if he was, his final judgement rested in his own heart, and in the heart of his eternity. This final judgement was not a public issue - for this private issue, I say, as my governor said, "May God bless Mr Graham."


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 08:33 AM

Ahhhh, THREAD DRIFT!!!

Why did I get the impression that you were going to say that?

B.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Mbo
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 08:30 AM

It's thread drift, Brendster, we were talking about fighting for peace.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 08:24 AM

What has that got to do with the death penalty, Meebs?

B.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Mbo
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 07:42 AM

Kelida, if people in the past hadn't stood up a fought for freedom, the world would be in a sorry state, and undoubtedly a lot more races would have been wiped out, in addition to the onces that didn't make it already. There would be no America, and you wouldn't even be alive. Sure it's easy to say that fighting for freedom is wrong now, but must have been pretty hard to reason with a Roman legion, or The Golden Horde or the British Navy.

There's a great part in the musical "Pippin" by Stephen Schwartz. When Pippin becomes king, he swears that there will be no more war, and that he can solve everything by talking. So when the Huns are invading, and sending threats to him to either fight or die, he has his messenger go to the Huns, and let them know that he wants to talk, and through that, they can come to a common agreement. When the messenger return, in a disheveled state, he reports that the Huns will talk with him, but first they want his genitals handed to them in a bag. Needless to say the Huns overrun the city that night, and he is almost killed...


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: keltcgrasshoppper
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 07:34 AM

Going back to Catspaw and Scorcha, I also feel that "beyond any doubt" is the only acceptable way for justice to be handed down regarding the Death Penality. I know this is a bit off track, but last weekend we watched "The Green Mile" and knowing that all of this was happening in Texas made the movie even more upsetting. With the justice system in place the way it is in Texas there is no way to stop an innocent man/woman from being killed. It is barbaric, but we are a barbaric country. Look what we do to our children, look how we treat our elderly, look how we treat our women. By the way Kat I just went to that site and registered. That is one way I can at least feel that I am a part of CHANGE. Thanks KHG


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: kendall
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 07:29 AM

For those of you who believe that the state should kill a person just because that person murdered someone, and, therefore, deserves it, consider this. Most of us are appalled at what we did to the Japanese in Heroshima and Nagasaki. All those innocent civilians killed.. how about all those innocent civilians whom the Japanese butchered in China and in the Phillipines? I served with a man from the Phillipines who was a victim of Japanese butchery. His throat was cut from ear to ear, yet, he somehow lived. He told stories of Japanese soldiers throwing babies up in the air and spearing them on bayonets as they fell. If you believe as the supporters of the death penalty do, that one wrong deserves another, didn't the residents of Heroshima and Nagasaki deserve it? Isn't it just "tit for tat". By the way, I'm against the death penalty. As Gandhi said, "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, only makes the whole world blind and toothless."


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: IanC
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 06:08 AM

Thanks Kevin

I was going to say that getting rid of the death penalty in the UK was one of the things politicians could be praised for. They did it despite the majority of people wanting to retain it (as far as I'm aware they still do).

Sometimes the politicians are ahead of the masses!


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 05:13 AM

Brendy, you're wrong about the death penalty just being supended in England. It's out, and as it stands now, even a government which wanted to bring it back couldn't do so without seceding from the European Union - and that goes for any other country in the Union, or who wants to join.

That doesn't mean the state can't find ways of killig people when it wants. But at least we'll never get a 36 year old man strapped to a table and killed because of something he may have done when he was 17.

I don't think you'd get that even in the other world leaders in capital punishment, China and Saudi Arabia.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 04:18 AM

It sort of all just goes to prove that the old Homo Sapien hasn't got the idea of human sacrifice out of it's system.

B.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 04:14 AM

That was not my point, Amergin.
The similarity between the two cases is death.

B.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Amergin
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 03:46 AM

The difference between the Sacco and Vanzetti case and this one is that another man who was executed that same night confessed to the murders they were supposed to have done and that there are no accounts of them actually doing any crime whatsoever. Another clear cut case of murderous oppression by the State. The man who died tonight was no saint.

Amergin


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Fiddlin' Big Al
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 03:45 AM

Read a book recently "The Rich Get Richer & The Poor Get Prison" don't remember author but is a text in university criminal justice studies. Do you believe that police never lie under oath, that eyewitnesses really always see what they think they see? Since most people you know would qualify for a public defender how can you be sure you or someone you know won't personally wind up faced with the needle. The self-righteous are certain they will never be in that position themselves so they keep supporting the killing regardless of doubts. Is this death penalty a genetic thing with the Bush Bros? or just pols in general? To get elected - play the law & order card. LEGALITY (practiced by the Bush Bros.)is not equivalent to MORALITY (understood and acted on by Gov. Ryan of Illinois, a courageous man - I'm proud to have once called IL my home.) Gotta go ... foaming at the mouth.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 03:21 AM

"Two good men's a long time gone.
Left me here to sing this song.
Two good men's a long time gone
Sacco and Vanzetti are gone."

B.


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