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Is Cm7sus a real chord?

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Marion 23 Jun 00 - 12:50 PM
Whistle Stop 23 Jun 00 - 01:31 PM
Marion 23 Jun 00 - 01:50 PM
katlaughing 23 Jun 00 - 02:03 PM
M. Ted (inactive) 23 Jun 00 - 02:19 PM
sophocleese 23 Jun 00 - 02:31 PM
Áine 23 Jun 00 - 02:32 PM
sophocleese 23 Jun 00 - 02:36 PM
GUEST,the happy farmer 23 Jun 00 - 02:43 PM
GUEST,the happy farmer 23 Jun 00 - 03:00 PM
Crowhugger 23 Jun 00 - 03:15 PM
Pene Azul 23 Jun 00 - 04:55 PM
sophocleese 23 Jun 00 - 08:07 PM
M. Ted (inactive) 26 Jun 00 - 11:42 AM
Grab 26 Jun 00 - 02:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jun 00 - 07:20 PM
Racer 27 Jun 00 - 02:21 AM
Whistle Stop 27 Jun 00 - 08:57 AM
Áine 27 Jun 00 - 09:57 AM
M. Ted (inactive) 27 Jun 00 - 12:50 PM
GUEST,Peter T. 27 Jun 00 - 03:13 PM
Fiddlin' Big Al 27 Jun 00 - 03:33 PM
Brakn 27 Jun 00 - 06:55 PM
GUEST,the happy farmer 27 Jun 00 - 07:38 PM
M. Ted (inactive) 27 Jun 00 - 11:08 PM
Rick Fielding 27 Jun 00 - 11:13 PM
sophocleese 28 Jun 00 - 12:03 AM
M. Ted (inactive) 28 Jun 00 - 09:54 AM
Gary T 28 Jun 00 - 10:30 AM
GUEST,the happy farmer 28 Jun 00 - 12:13 PM
M. Ted (inactive) 28 Jun 00 - 12:25 PM
Mike Robertson 29 Jun 00 - 06:58 AM
JedMarum 29 Jun 00 - 08:56 AM
Marion 29 Jun 00 - 09:39 AM
Frankham 29 Jun 00 - 10:46 AM
M. Ted (inactive) 29 Jun 00 - 04:39 PM
Brakn 29 Jun 00 - 08:01 PM
M. Ted (inactive) 29 Jun 00 - 08:40 PM
Marion 02 Jul 00 - 03:50 PM
Big Al Whittle 04 Jul 07 - 03:21 AM
shepherdlass 04 Jul 07 - 06:13 PM
Nick 04 Jul 07 - 08:37 PM
Bernard 04 Jul 07 - 09:01 PM
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Subject: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: Marion
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:50 PM

Hi folks. In a published music book (a Paul Simon anthology) I found that they want me to play Cm7sus.

I am confused. Doesn't "sus" mean suspended fourth? And doesn't suspended fourth mean that the fourth note is included and the third excluded? And isn't it the third note that determines whether a triad is major or minor? How can you have a minor suspended fourth? Am I right in calculating that the addition of the sharped seventh is irrelevant to this dilemma?

Is Paul Simon just playing with my head? Could be - it's in the song "Feeling Groovy" and maybe there's a hidden message here for guitar players not to stress over their chords...

Marion


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:31 PM

Marion, your logic sounds right to me. Thinking through the notes that would be in a Cm7sus, it sounds like you'd be playing all the notes in a pentatonic blues scale (C-Eb-F-G-Bb). Why anyone would want to play them as a chord (all at once) is beyond me. What song it is in, in what key, and where does it occur?


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: Marion
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:50 PM

The song "Feeling groovy", according to this book, consists of:

Eb Bb Cm7sus Bb

repeated continuously through the song.

Naturally, I lowered it half a tone to D A "Bm7sus" A.

I got no deeds to do, no promises to keep, no tautologically impossible chords to play...

Marion


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 02:03 PM

I don't know anything about chords, except how to play the three most simple on a baritone uke, but I did go looking for info on this one and found this chord guide which was linked to Paul Simon's site. Don't know if it will help or not, but thought it was worth a shot.

Good luck,

kat


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 02:19 PM

Technically, a "suspension" is a non-harmonic note that is tied over from the preceding chord(not always a fourth), in place of one of the harmonic notes in the chord. Generally, but not always, it resolves to the chord. For this reason, even if the minor third note has a fourth in it's place, it is still could be proper to refer to the chord as a minor seventh.

Then, there is the other factor, which is that often times, God-only-knows how the chords that are printed in a music book are determined--some klotz who is being payed $15 dollars per song, may have just guessed at what to call the chord, or worse, just guessed at what chord to put there.


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: sophocleese
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 02:31 PM

Okay looking at that little diagram that kat's link led us to (thanks!). I has an Eb, B, C, and F. If you want it to be a C based then chord then I guess the Eb makes it minor, the B makes it a 7, and the F is the suspended fourth, so you don't play the fifth. IT still seems somewaht strange though. Why not call it an Fsus7?


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: Áine
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 02:32 PM

kat - I couldn't get the chords to show up on the site you listed. Here's another (guitar) site that looks pretty good in re chords: Dansm's Chord Theory Page

I was looking for the name of a chord (or probably better called a "voicing") that I was using - Asus2 - that I couldn't find in my dog-earred "5002 Guitar Chords" book. I'd appreciate knowing what the rest of you guys (and gals) think about it.

-- Áine


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: sophocleese
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 02:36 PM

Just for anybody else that is trying to get to the diagram that kat found, I went to the address and removed "crds/" from just before the end then I found the diagram. Calling it an Fsus7 would put the song into an arrangement using the i, iv, and v chords and makes a little more sense I think, unless someone wants to tell me what I'm thinking wrong. Any information appreciated.


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: GUEST,the happy farmer
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 02:43 PM

well, I'd guess in this case the chord is so named because whoever named it saw it as functioning as a vi chord in Eb. Thinking in that context, the chord name becomes "Cm (add your extensions here)"

So "Cm7sus" is really not a bad name, it's based on the harmonic function of the chord, rather than a literal spelling of the chord. The whole chord name thing is a kludge anyway, it's good to know as much as you can about the conventions of chord naming, but don't get too hung up on it. It was developed as shorthand for studio musicians, it's not supposed to be a rigorous system of harmonic analysis ;)


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: GUEST,the happy farmer
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 03:00 PM

hunh, my previous post is based on the idea that the chord in question was spelled C F G Bb.

while I was typing someone has posted that the chord in question is spelled Eb B C F. Some one else has interpreted this spelling as F7. errrrrr....

ahhhhhh, what the hell... I think I will just quietly withdraw from this conversation :)

To the original poster: if your chord is spelled C F G Bb, then see my post (also M.Ted had some useful stuff to say). ok, I have one more bit of advice -- you can't learn harmony from a website. Chords are not finger diagrams.

well...bye! have fun with it.


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 03:15 PM

Marion,

To answer your questions:

Technically, no, but very often that's the assumption for guitar chords.

And doesn't suspended fourth mean that the fourth note is included and the third excluded? Usually, but music is about expression so the rules are routinely bent.

And isn't it the third note that determines whether a triad is major or minor? Yes, though it's clearer (!) to call the third an 'interval'; also see M. Ted's post.

How can you have a minor suspended fourth? See M. Ted's post.

Am I right in calculating that the addition of the sharped seventh is irrelevant to this dilemma? Yup. Unless you want another dilema - how to name the chord with a raised seventh instead of the 'dominant' seventh.

Is Paul Simon just playing with my head? Maybe.

...maybe there's a hidden message here for guitar players not to stress over their chords... Probably.

Back to Duckboots' daylilies.
CH.


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: Pene Azul
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 04:55 PM

I believe Whistle Stop is right about the spelling. In this case, though not indicated, the fifth (G) is probably excluded. If that's correct, it's spelled C Eb F Bb. I don't see why it would have a B in it.

Since it resolves to a Bb chord, it might be better thought of as a Bbsus4add9. I wouldn't get too hung up on the name of the chord as long as the spelling is right. I'm sure there are other ways to look at it.

PA


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: sophocleese
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 08:07 PM

OOps, my spelling was wrong wasn't it. Bb not B. I know very little, obviously, about theory in general and even less about how to apply it arbitrarily to guitar chords. But its interesting to see how people think about it. Happy Farmer's spelling of the chord was exactly the same as my husband's (he's the one with a degree in music)when I asked him what it would be. But its not the chord in the diagram, so if you don't know the chord how are you going to come up with the right chord from the name that is given?


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 11:42 AM

Marion,

I am sorry, I wasn't thinking about the whole picture when I answered your question and I didn't have your second post.

You did the smart thing in moving the piece down a half step-and you should do one more smart thing(which I'll bet you have already tried), which is to ditch the suspended part of the chord and just play a simple old Bm7.

The reason is simple enough--the "sus" note that you add, (in the key of A, it is an"E") conflicts with the melody note of F# . It creates a second interval in a place where it really isn't appropriate, and it doesn't resolve in the right way.(I will spare you the explanation where the note should resolve, and why, because you shouldn't have to deal with that sort of problem)

You can also use a plain old "D" chord in place of the Bm7, or if you want to make it even more simple, you can play the Bm7 in place of the E7, and turn this into a two chord song. I liked to change the A to an Amaj7 and make it very jazzy--(just play one downstroke for each chord)

||:Bm7Bm7/Amaj7Amaj7/Bm7Bm7/Amaj7Amaj7:||

So after all the discussion that we have had, it turns out that the chord was just a mistake that some arranger made. The music publishers threaten to sue us when we trade chord progrssions on the internet, but they basically sell defective merchandise--music with mistakes, wrong chords, misleading keys(Folk guitarists never use Eb, unless the are capoed) and bad chords progressions--let's get some consumer protection groups on this--

If you think I am kidding, think about this--people buy music so that they can sit down and play it without having to arrange it themselves or figure out the chords and lyrics themselves. Think of all the trouble Marion and all the millions who paid the $15 or so that this book must have cost because the music doesn't work like it is supposed to. Marion had to transpose the part, and then one of the four chords was wrong, that is 25% of the arrangement. Forget about all the piano arrangaement she was force to pay for but not use!!


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: Grab
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 02:14 PM

Aine, is Asus2 just like a normal A (or Am) chord without a finger on the B string? Seems to be used fairly often in 'atmospheric' fingerstyle.

Grab.


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 07:20 PM

"Chords are not finger diagrams" - in the sense that words aren't letters on a page I suppose that's true. But finger diagrams I can at least make sense of. Spellings and highly variable conventions for naming strange chords - I can't keep up with that.

I think they should be given arbitrary names, like hurricanes, and users referred to chord charts to find out what they look like.

What's the spelling for the Sullivan's Lost Chord, anyway?


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: Racer
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 02:21 AM

Of course the chord exists, Paul Simon played it. The reason he wrote it down the way he did was to emphasize the C in the chord as the root note. I always take the extra notes as passing tones, and just deal with it.

Guitarists regularly do things that they can't necessarily justify on paper.

I have heard a m2 interval played in a song without "adequate justification" and it sounded very good. It had that atmospheric sound everyone's talking about.

The idea of replacing a Bm7 chord with a D maj chord really turns my stomach. That was written by someone who either doesn't understand true the nature of guitar music, or was talking down to his or her audience.

I feel very strongly about very few things. Guitar chords are written to tell you what note to emphasize within that chord. Fsus7 doesn't work because you've got the wrong root note in there. It must be based on C.

The song was written to emphasize a mini-scale of four notes, descending. Concentrate on that.

-Racer


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 08:57 AM

Have to agree with M.Ted about sheet music. The frequency of transcription errors is appalling, and it can create a whole lot of agony and anxiety for the poor souls who buy the music and think they should be able to rely on it. And it isn't just in transcriptions of pop tunes, either. I studied classical guitar for years, and still dabble in it -- and I am constantly finding errors in printed music from the most reputable sources.


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: Áine
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 09:57 AM

Dear Grab,

Yep, that's exactly what an Asus2 is! The only reason I went searching for the chord name was out of curiousity. And you're right, I did use it for 'atmosphere' in one of my songs; and it worked a treat, as I come off of an Em to go to it.

-- Áine


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 12:50 PM

Racer,

All I said that if you wanted a simpler substitute for the Bm7, you could use the D.

If you think that I don't understand the nature of guitar music, or you think that I am talking down to someone or other, then you aren't a very good reader. I have invested a lot of time here trying to make sense out of questions that people have posted here, related to guitar playing and music theory. Because of the nature of the medium, and the nature of the subject, sometimes it takes a bit of back and forth to get to a useful answer, but I'll put my knowledge of the guitar, music theory, and my determination to get to the bottom of things, up against anyone else.

As to the point about the F#, I was talking about a the note in the melody, not an Fmsus chord. Marion had transposed into the Key of A, so that the Csus chord is likewise transposed--to a Bm7sus.

At any rate, if you play the chords like this: |DD/AA/Bm7-Bm7sus4/AA| then the you have a chord melody effect, because the chord changes follow the melody line.

The chord isn't really technically a sus chord though, because it supports a melody note, which is in the dominant harmony, and you can just as easily play a passing E-chord and get the melody note that you need, with the more classic harmonic support.

There are a lot of possible chord arrangements for this tune, because it has a circular repeating pattern, derived from Latin music, that is called a "montuno" The melody and improvisations based on the melody fit over a simple repeating chord progression, and the chords actually change their function depending on the melody note and their place in the melody.

I had an arrangement of this song that I used to use with my guitar students that was a sequence of five different but overlapping progressions. Each student started with a different progression, then played the five in sequence. The arrangement was competely different, depending on how many players were involved.


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: GUEST,Peter T.
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 03:13 PM

Just to note that Joni Mitchell refused to have the songbook of her recent "Hits and Misses" albums published until they put in the dulcimer TABs properly for the original songs. Some people take some care.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: Fiddlin' Big Al
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 03:33 PM

Like a drivers license suspended I fear the suspended chord and avoid it where possible. Best used only on bridges.


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: Brakn
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 06:55 PM

RE "Feeling groovy" I would call it a D11th with A bass.


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: GUEST,the happy farmer
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 07:38 PM

ah, Racer, a reactionary! If you only "feel strongly" about a few things, better take guitar music off the list, and substitute something you actually have a clue about. M.Ted is right.

And I, sadly, was wrong :) -- sheesh, I just saw "Eb Bb Cm7" and didn't think about the tune at all. Obviously (well, obvious once you actually stop to think about the melody) the tune is in Bb, not Eb, and the Cm7 is a ii, not a vi. Anyway, my poorly made point was: Think about the function of the chord, rather than getting hung up on the name, because the name on the sheet music is liable to be misleading or just wrong, and the fingering diagrams are often worse.

McGrath of Harlow -- I'd say "chords are not fingering diagrams" in the sense that grammar is not letters on a page, rather than "words are not letters on a page".

The naming conventions aren't really all that variable, they're pretty standardized (at least for the last couple of decades or so). "Cm7sus" is confusing because it doesn't seem to follow the convention when the convention is interpreted literally. OTOH someone familiar with the grammar of chords would understand what was meant. You can't learn the grammar from fingering diagrams, only isolated "words".

OK, the spelling of Sullivan's Lost Chord -- ready? S-U-L-L-I-V...hey, dammit, write this down!! I don't want to have to explain this again!


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 11:08 PM

Happy Farmer,

This whole chord/melody analysis business gets fairly messy most of the time. It usually takes a few go-rounds just to figure out what everyone is talking about, and to make sure that people are talking about the same thing--when that it out of the way, hours,days or weeks later, you get to the bottom of things and discover that it was all very simple all along--

I was once working with a singer on a demo of an old jazz standard, "Pennies From Heaven"--and we were working from the some very cool jazz charts that someone had gotten from somewhere vaguely famous(though where was never really clear). The voice sounded good, the instruments sounded good, but together, it was bad news. We went at it for hours, getting madder at one another by the minute.

Finally, someone noticed that there was a chord progression based on a dominant seventh chord where there was a major seventh in the melody--so we were playing two notes, a half step a part when they should have been the same note, and any dummy could have seen it--


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 11:13 PM

Hey MTed, what's the definition of a "minor second"?

Two violists playing in unison!

Good thread folks.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: sophocleese
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 12:03 AM

So basically chord naming is witty guitarese for "I wouldn't try getting there from here"?


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 09:54 AM

Rick--Truer words were never spoken--

Sophocleese--What we do is say, "That's a G7 fingering played up in the fifth position with the index finger here. and a barre up here"


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: Gary T
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 10:30 AM

Uh, M. Ted, is this a typo: the "sus" note that you add, (in the key of A, it is an "E")? My understanding is that a sus4th chord adds the 4th note of the scale, which in the key of A would be "D".

Assuming I have this right, do you still see a conflict with the D note and the melody F# note?


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: GUEST,the happy farmer
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 12:13 PM

no, it's not a typo, and he's right.

"sus4" indicates the 4th degree of the _chord scale_, not 4th degree of the tonic scale. The key is A major, the tonic is A, the chord is Bm7, the questionable (or in this case, just wrong) suspension is the note "E". hope that helps


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 12:25 PM

The sus 4th note is related to the chord, which is Bm7, as opposed to the key.

The melody goes F#-E-C#-D-E-C# (approximately), so you can start it with either a D chord or a Bm7 chord, but you can't start on the Bm7sus, which you can only use as a passing chord over the E note, and you have to start the phrase on either a D or a Bm7. It is probably better to call this chord an extension rather that a suspended chord, since you really play a Bm7 and extend it to add the E before you change chords.

You may note that it is possible to substitute the Bm7 for both the D chord and the E chord. This is works out for the reason that Bm7 is the same as D6, and at the same time it is a part of the eominant hord, E9. A neat little trick that let's you turn it into from a three chord song into a two chord song. It is technically simple, but theoretically complex.

Just to let you know what an obsessive-compulsive I am, I worked up a chord/melody arrangement of this tune(admittedly not a particularly long or difficult tune, but,,,) purely for the purpose of finding an answer to this question.


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: Mike Robertson
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 06:58 AM

My own theory about where the Cm7sus comes from:

Capo third, picking a C shape. This moves to an amputated G shape which I'd pick on the middle four strings:

-------------
| | | | | | |
-------------
| |o| | | | |
-------------
| | | | |o| |
-------------

From there down to what certainly is an Am7 shape:

-------------
| | | | |o| |
-------------
| | |o| | | |
-------------
| | | | | | |
-------------

In passing back to the G shape, if you're playing the same riff as Paul S then you will fret the D on the off beat:

-------------
| | | | |o| |
-------------
| | |o| | | |
-------------
| | | | |o| |
-------------

In that it started out as a minor seventh and had the extra note tacked on it's fair enough to tack the 'sus' onto what the chord started out as. If you have to give the beast a name at all that is, which I guess is the real problem here.

Vague attempt at tab of the same:

|-----0--------------------------
|---1-----3-------1-3---0--------
|-----0---------0-----------0----
|-------------0-------2-------0--
|-3-------2-------0--------------
|-------------------------3------

-mike-


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: JedMarum
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 08:56 AM

This has been an interesting thread. I guess I am one of those guitar players who cannot articultate what he does with his left hand ('cept to say; It's one of these, without the F#)! I use a lot of variation of the chords I play and rarely know the names of them. I also love the sound of holding one note of one chord, into the chord of the next - and there are many combinations of these 'suspensions' I use. My chord modifications usually result from experimenting with melody or harmony lines within the chord pattern of the song (which sounds like what Mike is talking about above)

My musical education took a turn away from the books when I was young. I might have learned a lot of theory the hard way since then, and probably not so well ... but I always find it easier to play along with someone who is talking theory, then I do to communicate what we are doing - and I don't see my ignorance as an advantage!

This thread has been helpful for me. Thanks.


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: Marion
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 09:39 AM

Thanks for answering, everybody. Most of this went over my head, which I suppose I should have expected, but I will try M. Ted's suggested progressions, and I will be thankful that someone gave me the old book free, and I will get around to learning all about theory. Yeah, someday soon...

Marion

PS. I'm skeptical about this statement: "The song was written to emphasize a mini-scale of four notes, descending." I've always thought the song was written to gloat (in a good way) over how great it feels to have free time and a mellow spirit.


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: Frankham
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 10:46 AM

Hi Marion, The minor seventh suspended fourth is used in place of a minor seventh chord. The way in which you label a chord is determined by it's usage in a progression. Actually, it might even be called a minor eleventh it the ninth of the chord is present. For example, if the progression is: Cmin7 to an F7 to a Bb, it would be acceptable to label the chords Cmin7(sus4), F7 and Bb. The suspended fourth gives the chord a "folk flavor" not unlike a retuned five string banjo in so-called "modal" or "mountain minor" tuning. The first chords in Scarborough Fair might have been labeled a minor seventh sus 4 but a more correct designation would be a minor eleventh since in contains the ninth.

In short, it label depends on how the chord is used.

Frank


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 04:39 PM

Well, yes, Michael, you've got a good point there--the thing that I was missing was the recording, and my memory isn't what it used to be--but it does sound like what he plays, except that my (admittedly erratic) memory tells me that there might be a C in the bass, below the D in the melody(ignoring that we are in third position with the capo) giving an ascending line: A-B-C-G

The critical thing being that minor third note is voiced before the extra note is added. At any rate, I don't thing it is an 11th chord, because that is a dominant chord, and it would take the piece out of key.


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: Brakn
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 08:01 PM

|---0----
|---1----
|---0----
|---0----
|---0----
|--------

0 is the sus 4th

Playing in C, imagine the bass line being, c,e,b,d,a,d,g.

What do you think?


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 08:40 PM

Actually, you're in the key of G, but starting on a C chord. But you're right, and,played that way, it could be a suspended fourth, but on the G chord, rather than on the Am7 chord.

There are a lot of different ways to harmonize this, and to think about the harmony. The sad thing here is that I don't think Marion is getting any closer to able to play this song, and won't be able to figure out what we are talking about til someone sits down and shows her.

Well, anyway, some of us are having a lot of fun with this song--


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: Marion
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 03:50 PM

Oh, don't worry about me, M.Ted. I am playing the song, with chords that sound tolerable to me: finding the best of all possible arrangements is not currently one of my goals. I started this thread out of curiousity, since the chord name didn't seem to jive with what I know of theory.

Before talking to you, I was playing it B7sus4 (second fret on the A, D, and G strings, all other strings open). Now I'm trying it as Bm7 - Bm7/E (adding the open low E string in the second half of the bar).

Thanks for working on this, and I'm very impressed with your dedication to figuring such things out, and sharing your knowledge with people like me. What I've read in this thread has changed the way I play this particular song, and has opened a new door on how I think about chords.

And I'm having fun with the song. I love the bit about "no deeds to do, no promises to keep." It reminds me of one of my favourite poems: "The woods are lovely, dark, and deep, but I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep..." Equal and opposite feelings that are both very true to experience.

Marion


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 03:21 AM

the weird thing is, when someone trancribes your own music and YOU don't understand it.


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: shepherdlass
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 06:13 PM

Seeing as it has a 3rd in there, you could call it Cm11 (I don't THINK there are any rules that say the 11th has to be above the 7th - I'm sure you can transpose it down the octave). It's all names and rules, though, and I guess they're just tools to getting at the music


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: Nick
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 08:37 PM

THese two have a different sound to me when I play them on the piano

C E G Bb C F

C Eb G Bb C F

If one is being pernickety if I play

C E G Bb C F and then C E G Bb C E

it's different than

C Eb G Bb C F and then C Eb G Bb C Eb

Sus4s want to resolve to whichever 3rd you want don't they?

Or do they only resolve to Major 3rds?


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: Bernard
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 09:01 PM

A Sus4 will resolve to a minor 3rd - Bach Toccata and Fugue in D minor is adequate proof!!


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: Nick
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 09:09 PM

Absolutely Bernard.

C G Bb C F and then C E G Bb C E

is different than

C G Bb C F and then C Eb G Bb C Eb

to me at least.

It's where it's resolved to isn't it? I don't do music theory but it seems to me that the resolution defines the sus4 chord


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: JeremyC
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 12:53 PM

You know, I think transcribers too often try to show off by overanalyzing the harmony. Sometimes that level of detail is important, but in a song like "Feelin' Groovy," no one should give a crap. In most folk(ish) songs, anything beyond the root, third, and fifth is almost always a passing tone, even when it's a dominant seventh.

(see how I double-qualified that?)

In summary, harmonic analysis on folk tunes is usually silly and/or pointless overkill, although it's useful in certain classical music.

sus4 chords resolve most naturally to the major third, by the way. Less distance to travel. That's why you sometimes hear baroque or classical pieces in a minor key resolve to a major triad. Nothing saying you CAN'T resolve sus4 to minor; it gives it a darker and slightly unexpected sound. sus2 is better for resolving to minor in a conventional way, though you can certainly use it for majors too.


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Subject: RE: Is Cm7sus a real chord?
From: GUEST,Jonny
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 09:41 AM

Does this help?

From "The Songs of Paul Simon", Knopf, 1972


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