Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?

Subject: Why did Bob Dylan shun Phil Ochs?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 01:18 PM

People are starting to get interested in Phil again--and with that come a new generation of listeners, who hear his songs, his voice, and his guitar playing on it's own merit, and not as something that is subordinate to Dylan. That is great, as far as I am concerned, because I loved everything that he did, from the beginning to the end, and I have always felt that he was never properly appreciated.

At the same time,as an impressionable teenager, I accepted the Dylan myth, the Dylan image, and the Dylan outlook, and tended to carry those impressions with me. Now I feel like it is maybe time to look a little deeper.

I just have been thinking about Rick Fielding's comment about "Positively 4th Street" that Dylan wrote it about Phil (though I had also heard that it was directed at Dave Van Ronk and/or Mark Spoelstra or even Ramblin' Jack Elliot). Whether it was specifically targetted at Phil or not, I do know that he was very cold toward Phil Ochs during the last years of his life. does anyone know why?

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: L R Mole
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 01:42 PM

Unsubstantiated rumor, which might be in "A Small Circle of Friends"; I don't have that in front of me just now:when Bob played Phil a demo of "Positively 4th St., the latter said, " It's great, Bob, but it'll never be another "Like a Rolling Stone". They didn't speak again for years. I'm off home to ransack the reference shelf, to correct, or verify, or at least blame someone else.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 01:47 PM

Why do Rams and Bucks bang their heads together? Dissing the competition is a natural thing. Dylan obviously felt that Phil Ochs was a threat. All those other guys you mention were also part of the pack that young Mr. D. saw as his competition, but there were few out there that had the body of high quality work that Phil Ochs did. We live in a very competitive society (if anyone hasn't noticed). This is not meant as a criticism, but Capitalism fosters competition rather than cooperation. You have to be very self-assured to not react negatively when you feel challenged. On the other hand, you have to be tough when the criticism is aimed at you and see other's criticism for what it is. You have to take it all with the proverbial grain of salt. It's a shame that Phil Ochs appeared to take it all too seriously. He forgot that quality work stands on its own, whether accepted when offered or not. He lost faith that his work would eventually be proven out. And finally, he began to see himself as past his time. Maybe if he would have felt the support from a peer like Dylan, he might have weathered that period of his life, seen some of the appreciation of his work that has developed, and gone on to write even more high quality stuff.

This is all just my speculation on this subject, based on what I've read. I think it's a shame that Phil Ochs isn't around now.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 01:50 PM

Jealosy
Larry

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Amergin
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 01:57 PM

I think InObu hit the nail on the head, jealousy the green eyed monster. Dylan has ever been the egocentric SOB.

Amergin

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Mike Regenstreif
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 01:58 PM

My understanding of "Positively 4th Street" was that it was directed at those in the folk scene who felt that Dylan was deserting the cause by exploring new directions in lyrics, music and song forms.

So far as I know, Dylan has never said that it was directed at Phil Ochs, or any other specific individual.

On occasion, I have talked about Dylan with both Dave Van Ronk and Ramblin' Jack Elliott. Neither ever indicated to me that they felt personally attacked by the song. Dave says that he learned more from Dylan than Dylan learned from him.

In one of the books of Dylanology that I read years ago, it said that Irwin Silber, the 1960s-era editor of Sing Out! Magazine was the intended target of "Positively 4th Street" and that the song was in response to Irwin's "open letter to Bob Dylan" that he published in Sing Out! in 1964.

Mike Regenstreif

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 05:28 PM

Interesting thoughts here--

Susan Rotolo, who might know better than anyone what Dylan had in mind at the time that he wrote it, said that she understood why Van Ronk and Spoelstra might be upset about P. 4thSt.

Larry--The animosity that Dylan felt seems very deep, though he was once close to Phil, I am told that he never sent any condolences to the family after his death, and that he never dignified the invitations to play at Phil's Memorial with any response at all. If it was jealousy, it was one of the extreme cases!!

Judging by the quality of stuff he was writing in the last part of his career--"Chords of Fame" "Jim Dean of Indiana" and "Tape from California", he was way better than Dylan at growing, changing as a songwriter, and, especially, at anticipating where music was going--

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 05:39 PM

Actually in the years up to his death, Phil played several times with Dylan, so they must have worked something out. The legendary feuds (Terry and McGee, Weavers, Almanacs, CSNY, Monroe-Flatt-Scruggs etc.) rarely have simple answers. My guess is that being mouthy at the wrong time was probably the cause of most of them...and money!

Rick

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Mike Regenstreif
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 05:56 PM

M.Ted,

I'm not sure that Suze Rotolo would be a good source for definitive information on this matter. The song dates from 1965. If I recall correctly, her relationship with Dylan ended circa 1963.

Also, while Dylan may not have been nice to Phil Ochs during the '60s, I really don't think you can make the case that it was Dylan who was jealous of Phil. Clearly, it was the reverse. Read Marc Elliot's biography of Phil for some background.

Mike Regenstreif

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Max
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 06:04 PM

What about the famous max and dick feud? Lasted damn near thirty years. It all started when we was playing craps and I threw a 7 but he swore I threw and 8. Then he wore my brand new Stetson hat and all hell broke loose. Didn't speak for years. Then one day I'm in a doughnut shop in Kalamazoo, Michigan, and I heard this voice order a danish and a jelly doughnut and just knew who that was. We stared each other down, seemingly looking for weakness and intent, never blinking, and then embraced with laughter. He finally admitted that it was in fact a 7 I threw all them years back. He just really liked my hat. So we sat and drank 17 cups of darkroast coffee and decided to start this Web site. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Oh, still, neither of us are talking to Dylan... he's a poor loser.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: bob jr
Date: 26 Jun 00 - 09:57 PM

okay well here is the real source of the big fight between dylan and ochs it wasnt positvely 4th street which was a stone radio hit out of the box but its follow up "can you please crawl out of your window" which ochs dismissed as a non hit and he was right but later the same evening dylan kicked ochs out of his limousine telling him (quite rightly at the time) that ochs was "a reporter not a songwriter" . as to ochs sad descent after this time it sure didnt show better songwriting than bob just a slavish attempt to be as good as bob which ochs like so many others didnt come close too doing sorry for all of you who cant hear that .........

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 12:48 AM

Well, Max, maybe. Not the way Dick tells it, though.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: DADGBE
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 12:55 AM

Rumor, the stuff of legend. Or legends, the stuff of rumor. Tales are told that P.4St. was about Irwin Silber. Tales are also told that the target was Richard Farina.
Does anyone know the true myth?

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 08:50 AM

Based on what I've read, Dylan was dissing Ochs long before either Positively 4th Street or Can You Please Crawl Out Yoyr Window were written. I can't buy the jealousy theory -- Dylan was clearly the superior writer and creative force, and there's no question that he had a much more successful career. I'm sorry Ochs' life ended the way it did, but you know, the guy was kind of a second-rate writer, and his "vision" was not especially visionary. He just wasn't in the same league as Dylan, and they both knew it.

As for why Dylan dissed him (exactly when did "dis" and its parent word "disrespect" become a verb, anyway?), I think it was because (a) Ochs was a weak personality, and (b) Dylan had a real cruel streak, especially at that point in his life. Dylan dissed a lot of people; Ochs' big problem was that he kept coming back for more.

Just my opinion, of course; I'm sure there are folks out there who have a higher regard for Ochs' talent than I do, and I hope I haven't offended them.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 09:29 AM

Just because you are better at some things than someone else doesn't stop you being jealous and resentful of them, if that's the sort of person you are.

Self hate has a lot to do with it, and Dylan had a lot of that, you can see it in song after song. It's a sort of fuel.

It's a bit interesting speculating about what was in someone's mind when they write a song, but it's not the end of the story. All kind of things can set off a song, and the song is there at the end of it, and if it's the kind of song Dylan was writing then, it can apply to all sorts of other things. A branch on a tree might grow in a particular shape because of the wind and the weather, but the important thing, if someone's turning it into a didgeridoo, say, is what shape it is, rather than why it became that shape. (Not that I've ever made a didgeridoo, but you get the point.)

Positivily Fourth Street isn't "about Phil Ochs". It's about broken friendship and stuff like that. And that's why it's a good song, because we all experience that sometimes, at a personal level, at a group level, at any level you like. You could quote it in any of the threads about national flaws we keep getting in the Mudcat, and it'd be relevant to that. Or men and women. Or flaming.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 10:46 AM

Good points, McGrath. I write a lot myself, and my writing is heavily influenced by Dylan. While there is often an event or motivation that triggers the song initially, by the time I've reached the end of the writing process the specific meaning of the song tends to be a lot harder to identify. I prefer songs like that; songs that have more than one application, and reflect more than one emotion. The interesting things in life are not black and white -- reality is more ambiguous than that, and emotions tend to be more conflicted. Songs that acknowledge this ambiguity mean more to me than songs that never move beyond the starting point, but just take a "position" and try to hammer the point home.

Yes, I think Dylan had a lot of self-hatred, or at least self-disappointment. And people who feel that way often lash out at others (look how cruel adolescents can be, particularly to their less popular peers). Dylan also was very clever verbally, and surrounded himself with friends who reinforced his cruelty and arrogance. It wasn't pretty, and he probably has some regrets now about how he treated people back then. Don't we all...

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 10:56 AM

Whistlestop--I actually tried to change "dis" to something else, it was the only word I could think of allowed me to convey the thought in a little box--when I came up with a better word, it was too late, and I coudn't change it--nonetheless,"Dis" is, as you probably know, a slang truncation that was current in urban speech,, and came into general usage from is use by certain performing artists and songwriters--you all know what I mean, but I won't go there.

Mike--Of course I have read Marc Eliot, and know what he has to say about Phil--I am curious about what Dylan's motivation might have been.

The comments about Phil being as second rate songwriter, and lacking vision show make me think that you haven't listened to him lately--Whether you like him or not, Phil had a gift for melody and lyrics--and he was a very good and very versatile singer, and made effective use of his guitar.

Bob,Jr, I think it is pretty hard to make a case that Phil was a slavish imitator of Dylan--they are artists who may have started in the same place, but they took their work in different directions. Dylan's work tended to be oblique interior monologue, rendering both his emotions and his social and political commentary through surreal imagery, while Phil tended to focus on the concrete, the pictures of life, and their political and moral ramifications.

Like everybody, I tend to feel that I have a personal relationship with the performers and artists that I like. The truth of course is that we only know the work, and we know them only to the degree that the work expresses who they are.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: L R Mole
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 11:44 AM

Well put, McG. Jersey Bruce said (most recently, I suppose),"Trust the art, not the artist." The universality of songs weathers circumstances and gossip, if they're good enough. Reference to Mr. Farina I suppose is from "Morgan the Pirate", from R& M's "Memories" album (which I think is cited here, somewhere. But who is lucky enough to not live among pirates? Similarly, "Crucifixion" is assumed to be about Jack Kennedy, which is certainly is on one level, but it might as well be about Phil. Or the original subject, for that matter.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Mike Regenstreif
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 12:12 PM

M. Ted,

Please reread my post, I did not suggest in any way that Phil Ochs was a second-rate songwriter. In fact, I did not even mention his songwriting in my post.

Mike Regenstreif

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Amergin
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 12:40 PM

L.R. Mole, Phil Ochs himself said that Crucifixion was about "the mystical process which took the lives of John and Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King." Not much of an assumption there when the writer himself has said it.

Amergin

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 12:49 PM

From everything I've heard and read, all of Dylan's cronies came back for more insults and "dissing". That's pretty true of all famous people and the folks who wanna be famous by association. Kinda silly isn't it?

Rick

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 01:12 PM

Mike, sorry if I wasn't clear in my attribution--Whistlestop and Bob, Jr. made the comments that I was responding to. I looked at the way it came up, and realized that it looks like I am responding to you in that line--which I didn't intend.

I have been sitting here and listening, for the last couple hours, to "Fairwells and Fantasies", which is the best CD collection of his work, and I have made it to "Cucifixion" up til now, nearly every song seems like his best one, but maybe this one is...

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 01:15 PM

M.Ted, in defense of Mike, it was I who said that Phil Ochs was a second-rate songwriter who lacked vision. A personal opinion only, and I'll confess that I'm not as familiar with his entire body of work as a lot of the rest of you folks are (we tend to listen to the people we like, and I don't like his music very much, so I don't listen to it -- know what I mean?). But I've heard the better-known ones -- I Ain't Marchin' Any More, Changes, Love Me I'm A Liberal (or whatever it's called), etc. -- and I am not all that impressed. I certainly don't rate him as highly as Dylan. But it's okay for us to disagree on that, and I remain open to changing my assessment if and when I hear more of his work.

As for "dis," I hope you don't feel I was criticizing you. It's just one of those words that I don't particularly care for, and think we could do without. No big deal.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: GUEST,dadaid
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 01:45 PM

all youse peoples have way too much free time...

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 01:48 PM

Dear Dadaid, ain't it the truth? We're all successful Day Traders with constant incomes.

Rick (who doesn't manage his time wisely)

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: GUEST,dadaid
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 01:53 PM

Rick ! tanx, i too am a day trader but livin here in atlanta.., well lets just say i dont get around much anymore .

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: annamill
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 02:11 PM

..and here, all this time, I thought it was ME the song was about! I saw and heard Dylan play in the village (that's Greenwich Village to non-NYers) and I used to hear everyone say he had big..well, you know whats to get up in public with that terrible voice. I was one of them. When he walked into one of our coffee houses we would stand in the back and just shake our heads. It just so happens that most of these coffee houses were around W. 4th Street. Boy, were we shocked when he was picked up. And it wasn't even Folkways, it was Columbia!! A few of us (not me) were lucky (or unlucky) enough to get to hang out with him. I always thought that this song was about we who laughed. Go figure. Another FACT gone. Amazing.

Love, annap

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 03:05 PM

Whistlestop--

As I mentioned, I've been listening to "Fairwells and Fantasies" which is a three CD compilation, produced by Gary Stewart, Michael Ochs, Meegan Lee Ochs. It features recordings from his entire career, including lots of live cuts, and also including some of the best of his later stuff, which is really good--well written, well produced, well performed, it falls short of greatness in only one way--it is not well known.

There is an inclination to dimiss this highly produced studio work as a "wrong direction" but it is exceptional music, and it shows that he had the capacity to do the kind of work that turned 70's singer-songwriters types, like the Eagles, Jackson Brown, Billy Joel, Dan Fogelberg, and Seals and Crofts into Superstars. Only thing is, from what I understand, that wasn't what he wanted.

Anyway, you should listen to it--my special faves are most everything from "Pleasures of the Harbor"(which has been newly released on CD), including "Outside a Small Circle of Friends", "Crucifixion", "Miranda", and the title cut, "Jim Dean of Indiana", "No More Songs", and "The Chords of Fame".

He is worth hearing--

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 03:27 PM

Thanks for the tip, M.Ted -- I'll have to give him another listen.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: bflat
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 04:35 PM

I have very much enjoyed all the comments. I came late to the dance and never saw either during this period. I will say that I find Ochs compelling and enigmatic. Dylan is easier to play and not as complicated to understand his message. Speaking only for myself. Perhaps the discord was due to only one loving the other's work and not a reciprocal response.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Bert
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 04:47 PM

And I'm jealous of Amos and McGrath of bleedin' Harlow and all those other Mudcatter song challenge winners who keep writing songs that are better than mine. Rotten bastards, I hate the bleedin' lot of you.

Bert. (Love you really guys and gals)

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 06:15 PM

Phil Ochs was a clever, complicated person who left us prematurely. Too many musicians do - David Munrow and Peter Bellamy are two sadly similar cases from this side of the pond.

Whatever devils sat on their shoulders and whispered "You're no good, you're past it" or whatever were probably the same who inspired the best of the works that we remember them by.

Dylan failed to die romantically young, although fate and a motorcycle did have one abortive attempt. He came to songwriting from a very different direction. To a certain extent Ochs was more a journalist than a poet, but I find his songs are often more accessible than Dylan's.

Not better, nor worse, just different.

We'd be poorer without either. Whatever their personal animosities, real or imagined.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 06:35 PM

I think a definitive answer would be one that Phil Ochs himself stated. Though,my suspicion is that other things led up to it.

There is a recorded interview given by Phil at Irwin Silber's facility. The interview tape was given to me and I played the Dylan excerpt on my program some time ago. He tells a long story on it--the essence of which is as follows:

Ben Blue and Phil were in Dylan's limo. When asked his opinion of Dylan's new work he said something to the effect that it will certainly not be another Rolling Stone. Bob D then told him, according to Phil, that he Phil was nothing but a reporter while he (D) was a songwritger. Then proceeded to kick him out of the car.

This is from Phil's mouth.

As to me---I think Phil was a terrific songwriter AND reporter.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 07:00 PM

Question for Alan, what do you mean when you say "more of a journalist than a poet"? I have heard this idea expressed a few times, and I am not sure what it means--it reminds me vaguely of Truman Capote's famous, if not particularly inciteful comment on Kerouac, "That's not writing, that's typing"--

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: bob jr
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 08:55 PM

hey bill h thanks for repeating almost verbatim the story i told way earlier in this thread!!! i guess nobody including me reads these things from the begining and phil often talked about trying to be as big as dylan so if you doubt it read some of his bios cause he says it himself. i like phil ochs enough to read about his life and i like his later material to his earlier stuff but he just wasnt as good as bob dylan ,as for bobs stuff being simple PLEASE if that is simple then i wish i was a dumb as him

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: mccomas
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 09:17 PM

I think this whole issue is nothing but "Dylan for Dollars."

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: bob jr
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 10:07 PM

well i guess someone had to say something real dumb nice job mccomas

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 10:16 PM

Lotsa people READ the posts before they post, Jr.

The "journalist" thing has been slung at Ochs so many times, perhaps even HE believed it. It's as stupid as comparing their work to see who's was better. Can anyone fathom just how much all of these guys DRANK, before they had their "philisophical" discussions? It's a wonder ANY of them are alive today.

Rick

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: bob jr
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 10:30 PM

and in the end bob did go and do that chile benefit at the felt forum so i think they were done fighting

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 10:41 PM

Well put Rick. Booze, drugs, and the times certainly enter into the story. We will never know what really transpired, but it amazes me that there are some people that point to this incident as the turning point in Phil's life - as if that was the incident that would make him take his own life 11 years later. It is more complex then that.

And why do people knock journalists? What is so bad about calling him a journalist? He looked at himself as a troubadour, and if your look up that definition you will see that troubadours were the journalists of their day.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: GUEST,Ted Crouch
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 11:13 PM

These guys came together at a time when there was room for many more songwriters. Whatever went down between them happens to all of us in some way along the way. Pity they didn't carry on in their own way. I think we've all been blessed a bit having writers like Dylan and Ochs living in our time!

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 10:00 AM

Despite what Annap said about people shaking their heads, I remember most of us in the Village being in awe of Bobby's amazing talents. If you ever get a chance to talk to Tom Paxton, Noel Stookey, Peter Yarrow or Dave Van Ronk, they'll back me up on this.

Phil worshipped Bobby. Phil's behavior could also be very erratic and he was sometimes really difficult to be around. Bobby took a lot of shit from Phil for a long time before that limo incident. In the last years of his life, Phil literally disintegrated mentally. We later found out he suffered from bipolar disease.

Sonny and Michael Ochs have done a great job of keeping Phil's music alive. Would that we all have such a supportive family.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: annamill
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 03:19 PM

Guest, what are you talking about?? He came up with his big ole D28, a harp around his neck, and an absolutely terrible voice. He later developed his music and I am one of his fans NOW. But at first, it just wasn't there. By the way, I never saw Tom Paxton, Noel Stookey, Peter Yarrow or Dave Van Ronk in any of the coffee houses I worked at. And I worked at a lot of them, because they all had my phone number if someone couldn't come in. This includes 'The Fat, Black Pussy Cat', ' The Night Owl', 'The Bitter End', 'Rienzi's', 'The Feenjon', 'The Wha!', and many others. Bob would make the rounds each night, just like all the other folk singers did, and I was there and I heard how the people responded..and laughed. He may have been great then, but we poor listeners didn't know it.

Love, annap

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: GUEST,Ben Birdwell
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 02:16 AM

A very cool discussion....

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 11:01 AM

I've told this story on the 'Cat before, but it is worth repeating. A friend of mine who actually earned his living in the late fifties and early sixties performing Ukranian Folk songs in Canada (I'm not making this up) decided to go go to New York to take in the village. He tells of seeing a strange looking young man in overalls singing songs in a voice so stange that he and his companions were actually laughing. But he said on the drive back to Toronto he couldn't get the songs out of his head. He was watching T.V. a few months later and saw the same fellow. It was of course Bob.

The other story he tells is of sitting out a terrible snowstorm at Toronto's famed Riverboat. Apparently there was him and about four other patrons due to the weather. He saw a woman there who absolutely captivated him, it was Joni on her first trip to Toronto.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: L R Mole
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 12:31 PM

Amergin: precisely my point. You let art of any sort out, and prople will find stuff in there beyond what you say or intend. Da Vinci probably thought of Mona as some patroness with bad teeth.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Peter T.
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 12:44 PM

Steve, the story is slightly exaggerated. I occasionally frequented the Riverboat, and while I remember it being damp from time to time, I can't believe that there was a terrible snowstorm at the Riverboat -- if so, the four patrons were noble. And of course, the fact that Joni, like all sensible people would have the urge for going and not leave would be remarkable. Wait a minute!! I feel a song coming on!!!

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 01:41 PM

The real pity in this whole thing was that Phil Ochs cared so much about what Bob Dylan and others said about him. There is plenty of room for both of them in my toon library, just as there is plenty of room for journalists and poets in my words library.

As President Jack Nicholson said in "Mars Attacks", "Can't we all just . . .get along."

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 03:21 PM

It occurs to me from time to time that the people who perform, and especially those who write, seem to carry around a lot of anger. It may be that if you find an effective way to channel it outward, you can end up a success, and if you let it turn back on yourself, you end up like--Well, you can fill in the names yourselves...

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: GUEST,Jim Dean of India
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 04:20 PM

Let's not forget that Bob at one point said ``I just can't keep up with Phil. And he's getting better and better and better.'' if he meant it then he might very well have been jelous of phil. If he didn't who knows. Either way, you know never know if Dylan means something or is just being his pretentious fuck of a self. Jim