Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 14 - 11:16 AM

I suggest removing the posts of tHe tRaNs1eNt. They mar what was an otherwise great 14 year discussion!

In my opinion, any rivalry between the two was blown out of proportion, but it's interesting to speculate on. Both Dylan and Ochs were young, talented and unstable to some degree. I'm sure there was mutual respect.

Dylan's body of work is more impressive than Ochs', but Ochs is a good candidate for the best 60's Village songwriter other than Dylan. This says a lot. I can't think of a better, more universal war protest song (from anyone) than "I Ain't Marching Anymore." The electric version should have been a hit. I mean, just because the Beatles were the best British Invasion band, does that mean we shouldn't listen to the Kinks? Of course not. The same comparison could be made between Dylan and Ochs.

It was Ochs who was making better music in 1970 despite almost complete commercial indifference. This wasn't the peak of Ochs' career, but "Greatest Hits" at least had genuine feeling. At its worst, Dylan's 1970 material was routine.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 02:27 PM

Quote Lanfranc: We'd be poorer without either. Whatever their personal animosities, real or imagined.

Applause... from, one in Rightpondia who still sings a couple of Ochs songs because few do now, and doesn't sing Dylan songs any more because everyone else does.

Tone

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 01:39 PM

You guys are all wrong.The reference Dylan refers is that Phil was a
Journalist major at Ohio State.He dropped out in the last semester of his Sr. Yr. when he got passed over for Head Editor for the College Newspaper.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 08:53 PM

People talk too much.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: pdq
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 08:37 PM

Bob Dylan did not "dis" Phil Ochs with "Positively 4th St."

That song was written for at Irwin Silber who said that Dylan's new marerial was not in the Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger tradition of protest and that Dylan had "let us down"

The song takes that quote and replies "You say I let you down. You know it's not like that. If you're so hurt. Why then don't you show it!"

It's right there. The venom is for Irwin Silber, not Phil Ochs.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: GUEST,banjopicker
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 08:20 PM

I dont think Phil is the only one Bob Insulted or dissed or whatever you wanna call it. I got the feeling it was the whole folk community that ever helped him it. I read quite a few books on dylan such as his own auto-biography chronicles. He comes off as quite the asshole

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 03:52 PM

Well... I am not sure why *I* opened a thread about Dylan, but it sure is an eye-opener about how petty & prejudiced some can be.

We can only hope that " tRaNs1eNt " means that 'it' is moving on.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: meself
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 11:58 AM

Two or three possibilities about the 'great talents':

1) They are no worse than a lot of other people, but no one bothers publicizing the unflattering stories about the other (unknown) people;

2) The great talents we hear about are/were also celebrities, and all the weird stuff that goes along with that brings out the worst in them (which doesn't explain obnoxious behaviour in their pre-celeb. days);

3) An inordinate number of great talents suffer from some form or other - or multiple forms - of mental illness, diagnosed or not. Or, there is something in their brain/mind that is not functioning 'normally', so that their way of seeing and responding to the world can seem to others bizarre if not outright obnoxious, at least when it is not producing art. So, for instance, someone with Asperberger's may seem rude when actually they have missed certain social cues that others pick up on.

4) The drive to create and/or succeed was a response to an unhealthy childhood environment which otherwise contributed to the formation of an unpleasant personality.

5) Various combinations of the above.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 09:47 AM

I'm beginning to think that Dylan might be the Phil Spector of singer/songwriters.

I can never understand why such great talents are a********holes.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Max
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 01:15 AM

And looky there... A post of my own from 11 years ago was deleted because of context as well. Folk is bigger and badder than us all.

It'll wait for you to pass out drunk and us all to look away and BAM!, there's an 11 year long conversation about folk music that doesn't make either of us seem like idiots.

Huzzah!!!

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 12:27 AM

Interesting thread. For context to the conversation, here is Positively 4th Street. That last bit of the song works well for our offal guest: Yes, I wish that for just one time/You could stand inside my shoes/You'd know what a drag it is/To see you



Positively 4th Street

You got a lotta nerve
To say you are my friend
When I was down
You just stood there grinning

You got a lotta nerve
To say you got a helping hand to lend
You just want to be on
The side that's winning

You say I let you down
You know it's not like that
If you're so hurt
Why then don't you show it

You say you lost your faith
But that's not where it's at
You had no faith to lose
And you know it

I know the reason
That you talk behind my back
I used to be among the crowd
You're in with

Do you take me for such a fool
To think I'd make contact
With the one who tries to hide
What he don't know to begin with

You see me on the street
You always act surprised
You say, "How are you?" "Good luck"
But you don't mean it

When you know as well as me
You'd rather see me paralyzed
Why don't you just come out once
And scream it

No, I do not feel that good
When I see the heartbreaks you embrace
If I was a master thief
Perhaps I'd rob them

And now I know you're dissatisfied
With your position and your place
Don't you understand
It's not my problem

I wish that for just one time
You could stand inside my shoes
And just for that one moment
I could be you

Yes, I wish that for just one time
You could stand inside my shoes
You'd know what a drag it is
To see you

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Max
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 12:23 AM

Yeah, not my usual self tonight. Gotta soft spot for the Jews. Being the chosen people is quite the prize, you know. Kicked out of 84 countries and not giving up on what you believe is a damn sexy quality to me. Gets me a bit cheeky.

I just felt I had to intervene because I was afraid that your anonymous and textbook perfect proof of assertion argument may have been the straw that broke the camels back and finally defeated there 5000 year old charmed and enchanting odyssey.

You may believe anything you like, and if this were a BS thread, a thread about antisemitism in folk songs, a Klezmer thread even, or a thread about that old ballad where the guy publicly obsesses on a popular victim of prejudice in a particular polarizing environment to offset a weakness in an another area of his life... it had a chance.

My opposition is to context. This is a music thread. Talk about music.

And it hurts. It really hurts me to edit a post. A thousand tragedies I have taken an active roll in, and have mourned every one.

My take (admittedly imaginative) was always that Dylan dissed Phil because he was disoriented and intimidated by the fearless, selfless, pure sincerity and freedom of expectations of his songwriting.

The whole thing sensationalized, no doubt, a fun story to be sure. Ochs is deep, man.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 11:59 PM

And gnu gets to call me a troll?

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Max
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 10:47 PM

I think you more clearly learned where I stand on assholes. Freedom of speech only applies to people. You have yet to show signs of such. If you cared about the party, you would not poop in the punch bowl. Yet I fight like hell to provide you the freedom to do so.

My home address, my phone number, my picture, my career, my children... are all over this site. You don't even have a name. Who's the coward?

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 09:29 PM

...

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 08:52 PM

I would hope that Mudcatters would have the wisdom to respond to the racist post above with absolute silence. Please?
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: GUEST,Doug Saum
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 12:57 PM

If Ochs is more poetic than Dylan, a proposition I can't fully endorse, it may be because he, at times, would imitate his poetic idol W B Yeats. Yeats's swirling gyres, lovers on the run, and the poet in the midst of a country's violent political and civil unrest were all grist for Och's mill.

"In Lincoln Park the dark was turning, turning." "William Butler Yeats visits Lincoln Park and Escapes Unscathed" from Rehearsals for Retirement

"Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falconer can not hear the falconer;" "The Second Coming"

(BTW - Both "turning" mentions allude to Homer's simile in The Odyssey when Odysseus & son turn on Penelope's suitors and dispatch them as raptors will prey.)

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 01:30 AM

Well, O pedantic Guest, this source and this sourcemake me think that "dis" is also correct.

Hey, it's slang. Is it really right to argue which slang is correct and which is not?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Lexman
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 11:31 PM

Maybe one of you who knew Dylan well could comment on whether what I am about to say had any bearing on the Dylan/Ochs clash. I knew Phil pretty well.

Thinking about the times I performed Phil's songs at civil rights and anti-war rallies, I was reminded that Phil could really deliver outdoors. A lot of Phil's songs were written with outdoor delivery in mind. I remember the night I typed up "Here's to the State of Mississippi," which Phil practically dictated. He could get more volume singing out of the side of his mouth than most performers could get swallowing the mike.

Dylan, on the other hand, couldn't really perform well outside of a studio (until he made enough dough to rent the kind of sound equipment we could never find in the smoke and beer drenched cellars we used to perform in).

Did Phil's ability to put across a song in any venue bother Dylan? It never seemed to bother Tom Paxton, who was always a pleasure to listen to in any house, and Paxton's protest songs were the equal of anybodies.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 04:10 PM

This will sound petty... but please could someone correct the spelling of this thread title? should be "diss", and irks the hell out of this pedant! :)

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 02:08 PM

Bob became the New Left's darling by about 1963, because of the powerful protest songs he had written. He was seen as the crown prince of protest, and people looked to him for leadership, but it was a crown he didn't want to wear, so he began distancing himself from it, and simply refused to get involved in political causes pretty much from that point on. He probably felt that saying "yes" to even one such thing was to open the floodgates.

You should have asked Joan Baez to read that note, Bobert. ;-) She would've done it for you, no problem.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 08:33 PM

Well, I've always loved Bob's music but he did seem to have a certain arrogance to him...

He was in Richmond, Va. in the winter of 69 to play at the Mosque and there was an anti-war demonstration that I was involved with fir the following day so I took a piece of paper with a short paragraph to one of his band mates (The Band, can't remember which one) and asked him if he'd pass it to Dylan to read sometime during the concert... The bandmate said, "Bob won't do that kinda stuff"...

Kinda rubbed me wrong... How can you write anti-war songs yet not take a friggin' 15 seconds to make an announcement of a demonstration against the war???

B~

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Lexman
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 07:32 PM

Little Hawk makes the definitive statement on comparisons.

A lot depends on audiences.

Back in 1970 I was performing at McKelligon Canyon out in El Paso at an anti-war rally (I was in uniform at the time and almost got court martialed for this). The headline performer was some young star from Hollywood whose name I forget. He got up an did "Girl from the North Country," a rather good Dylan song, some of the lyrics for which he got from a Ewan McCall and Peggy Seeger song book ("Scarborough Fair, which Simon and Garfinkel did very succesfully later). It got polite applause.

I got up next with my old Gibson J35 and did Phil's "I Ain't Marching Anymore" and "I'm Gonna Say it Now." I got real applause and some cheers, plus my picture on the from of the El Paso Times.

I wasn't a better singer, but that crowd wasn't interested in Dylan, they were interested in Phil Ochs.

Different times, I guess.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 12:25 PM

Well, I'm not nearly as familiar with the whole body of Phil's work as I am with Bob's songs, so I can't really say. I do like the poetry in "Changes".

I think Bob Dylan is the best in the world at writing the kind of songs he writes...but that goes without saying. ;-) I could say exactly the same thing about Mary Chapin Carpenter...or Al Stewart...or Joni Mitchell...or Buffy Sainte-Marie....or Bruce Springsteen....

They're all the best in the world at writing the kind of songs they write, meaning their own songs. If you get what I mean...

It's pointless to stand them beside each other and say: "So and so is the best." It would be like picking one of a bunch of flowers or clouds and saying "that one's the best". All you really mean is that for some reason you like it more than you do the others, but they're all the best at the unique thing they do.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 12:05 AM

Saying Phil's work was more poetic is sure to raise a blister somewhere.

I like most of Phil's songs. I like maybe 10 of Bob's. I agree to Phil having legs in his music. The song "Celia" haunts me.

D

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 05:27 PM

At the time they were both working, I bought Phil's books and records. Phil may have been a "reporter" but the stories he reported are ongoing issues of the human condition and, definitely, more poetic than Dylan's.

Come to a "St. Phil's Night" one of these years. They are annual events.

His work has legs.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 10:40 AM

Positively Fourth Street is a pretty mean song, all right. I like the way it sounds, but don't so much sympathize with what it says. He might have been better off not to record that one.

When of the worst things about alcohol is that it causes people's hidden garbage to emerge. We all know about the "angry drunk". Dylan seems to have been more along the lines of the waspish and sarcastic drunk. ;-)

As for charisma, he had loads of that. There was something about him that really got to people.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 09:01 AM

I spoke to Dylan a few times in the early 60s and found him to be a decent lad when sober. However he was a particulary nasty drunk. As far as the song Pos. 4Th St. I have always considered it a rather puerile whine.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: GUEST,Guest - Lin
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 01:28 AM

Both these guys were very young in the early 60's and with youth sometimes goes disrespect and big egos. True, musicians of any age can be mean spirited towards another singer or their competition but sometimes rapid fame at such an early age can bring out the worst in a young musician.

Also, I think even though Phil Ochs was a very good writer/musician, I don't think he had the same kind of charisma that Dylan had; there was just something about Dylan (besides his great ability as a songwriter) when he was very young, in his early/mid 20's that was very charismatic that Phil Ochs didn't seem to have.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 12:28 AM

Phil was also deeply troubled mentally. Some say schizophrenic others say bipolar other say alcohol induced psychosis. I don't know which but he was troubled enough to take his life.

Any one who could write a song like "I threw it All Away" doesn't need to re-imagine traditional songs and call them his own. No doubt Dylan could write. I just didn't like what he wrote all the time.

D

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 09:37 PM

Bob's been through a lot of different stages in song styles, so if one looks at his whole catalog, there's got to be some stuff one would like, I should think.

When Phil did the Gold suit thing, he had a theory that the "message" embodied in protest music could only be marketed effectively to the changing demographic by doing it through a "rock star" outer image. He thought that the image would bring the audience, then the message would enlighten them to the serious causes he was espousing. This was pretty naive, seems to me, but it was a sincere attempt on his part. Phil was a man who genuinely gave his heart to the ideal of a social revolution and had his heart broken when that revolution appeared to fail. He wasn't the only one.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 07:58 PM

Never have I been a big Bob fan. Always have been a Phil supporter. Recently I have found a few Bob Dylan songs that I was surprised with and enjoyed. I find more and more to like about Och's songs but preferred the pre-Gold Suit Phil.

D

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 12:48 AM

Another thing Bob has expressed regret about in more recent times is his callous treatment of Joan Baez in the mid-60s, after their relationship began to unravel. Baez found him to be a very complicated individual...at first she thought that she could figure out what "made him tick", but eventually she came to the conclusion that she would never be able to figure it out. She certainly values the contribution he made to songwriting, though.

Richard Farina was a hell of an interesting guy, very charismatic, and he was definitely going to make his mark. Too bad he died so young. He might have died sooner if his young wife Carolyn Hester (in a jealous rage) had shot him...she very nearly did, but he talked her out of it. Fortunately for both of them. She was a fine performer in her own right.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: GUEST,Doug Saum
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 01:43 PM

At the time of the limo ride, "Pos 4th Street/Can U pls Crawl," Dylan was undergoing a conscious shift in his musical evolution (the M. O. for his career). Ochs had not yet followed and was more clearly within the "folkie" approach - one-two guitars, one voice, and most importantly possessing a critical stance on the song's topic- for Phil that would be the issues of the day as found in the New York Times (thus the "journalistic" moniker). This is where Dylan ws coming from ("Oxford Town," "Emmett Till," "Times TAA'C" etc.- issues-driven music), but not where he was at then. Phil thought himself a peer and Dylan wanted a sychophant.

What do we know about Phil's fascination with W B Yeats?

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: GUEST,Bill Perry
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 01:09 AM

I'm not surprised Jeri doesn't know me; musically I wasn't much. It wasn't so much the gross thing Zimmerman did to me that bothered me, it was the way he treated everybody. During the time I saw him around I never remember him doing anything nice for anyone. He struck me as using people to get ahead, then dropping them.

As for some of Bob Dylan's music, heck, I used to do some of it myself, so I have respect for his talent. In fact I think the song he based on some lines from a Medieval poem, "If Today Was Not and Endless Highway," is one of the best songs to come out of that period.

As Little Hawk noted, Phil's popular stuff was topical, but some of it has aged better than other of it. The stuff of Phil's I really used to like, however, was not well known. He put three poems to music that I used to love doing: 1) "The Men Behind the Guns," 2) Poe's "the Bells," and 3) Noyes' "The Highwayman."

I guess one of the things that probably prejudiced me toward Dylan was that I thought Richard Farina's work was much better. When Dick was killed in that motorcycle accident I thought we lost the best man we had in The Village. Considering the way Dylan treated Joan and the rather callous way he took Dick's death and stiffed Mimi, my distaste for him turned to dislike.

Little Hawk was right. Phil did stand up for Dylan when the acoustic purists were all over him. And I never thought Dylan was disrespecting Phil until I saw this thread. I'm still not convinced.

PS: Phil wasn't always so easy to get along with either, but neither was I. He used me to type up his stuff on my old Royal Portable, and I still have a number of early drafts on newsprint typewriter paper.

If Dylan has repented his early behavior I'm glad to hear it. More power to him. It's a shame Phil isn't around to know about it.

I guess I should have kept my mouth shut about Zimmerman, but the thought he might have been putting down Phil just got me to remembering.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 11 - 11:02 PM

Phil Ochs defended Bob Dylan when most of the other East Coast folkies were attacking him for having "betrayed" them by abandoning overt protest songs (while actually composing far more subtle but not so overt protest songs which protested just about EVERYTHING rather than protesting only the specific parochial concerns of the New Left).

Phil Ochs got what Bob was doing in songs like "It's All Right Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)", "Gates of Eden", and "Desolation Row". He praised Bob for doing it.

This showed great courage and honesty on Phil Ochs' part, because he was on the outs with Bob at the time, but was still defending him.

Yes, Bob was mean and spiteful to Phil Ochs on a couple of specific occasions, during a time when he got mean and spiteful with quite a number of people. Fine. He later seems to have regretted it.

He (Bob) still wrote the most powerful, revolutionary, and intelligent songs of that time. If you get it, you get it. If you don't, nothing anyone says will make a particle of difference.

Phil Ochs wrote one really brilliant song: "Changes"

He wrote some other not bad songs as well. He wrote a lot of songs which were strident, too literal for my taste, didn't age well, but I guess that's a matter of taste. If you like his stuff, great. I can take it or leave it. Be that as it may, I still appreciate his sincerity and his honesty.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Jun 11 - 10:34 PM

Bill Perry is the guy who refreshed a thread that had been dormant for 11 years to write nasty shit about somebody. Other than that, I don't know Bill Perry.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: GUEST,Garry Gilermitt
Date: 17 Jun 11 - 08:44 PM

Ladies and gentleman, I give you Mr Bill Perry!

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 Jun 11 - 09:31 AM

Whew!I rhink I'll go out and breath some fresh air.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: GUEST,Bill Perry
Date: 17 Jun 11 - 09:04 AM

Just found this site.

Zimmerman was a sleaze ball. I don't know anyone in The Village that "liked" him, although some of his stuff wasn't bad (if other people sang it). The way he used Joni was cruel. Dick Farina hated his guts, and said so in song. I shared a room with Phil for a while in SoHo, so I know Phil's opinion of Zimmerman.

Illustrative story: One night in the Gas Light Zimmerman had been drinking beer and peeing his jeans. He smelled terrible. But when he started to rub his pee-soaked jeans on my leg playing "doggie" I had to cold cock him. Jack Lass, the manager, carried him out into the street until he woke up. That was the "Dylan" of The Village.

A close listen to "Positively 4th St." will confirm what I'm saying.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: bob jr
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 12:19 AM

well i guess i am gonna defend bob dylan again but i sure get tired of it..i mean dont you folks have ears out there? first lets put some stupid dogs down here dylan was an affected singer but when he stopped (ie when the world wasnt listening ) he sounds great!! nashville skyline? great singing no question ,the unrealesed basement tapes? fantastic singing but you got to go look for it...during his "i am gonna be woody guthrie"phase or his "look how many drugs i am on"phase yeah his singing could suck and sometimes when he got older it was a mushmouthed affair i admit but most of the time this guy is a very expressive singer i will quote chapter and verse if you like

second point that old "dylan stole from tradition" ok who was bobs biggest influence in coming in to folk music?

any one who doesnt know it was woody guthrie please stop talking bout bob dylan forever or until you listen to some of guthries "originals"...woody wrote great words but when it came to tunes he just out and out stole them from other traditional songs and if its ok for guthrie (and just about everyone else for that damn matter) why is not ok for bob dylan...when someone takes something out of traditional music and brings into todays scene (such as dont think twice based on an old traditional song called whose gonna buy your chickens now) i think that is great why shouldnt tradition be adaptable to the times?

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: WillH (inactive)
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 11:42 AM

I guess I am late here, but I agree with BK about Dylan. I'll go a bit father too, and say that a lot of his songs were very sloppy, with too many words the lines, and bad rhymes. His older stuff was very gimmicky,and those sarcastic one liners. with the surrealistic images, wear really thin after a while. His newer stuff just plods, on and on and on.

A couple years back,for a birthday party for a dear friend who was a Dylan fan, we played a couple of hours worth of stuff. There were some great moments, but it got very thin at times.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 01:25 AM

1.) Dylan is mean sometimes 2.) mean people are usually insecure 3.) Ochs is blatant, and sometimes rude 4.) Ochs was what we now would call "a sensitive male" A.) this is a bad combination for a songwriter, especially when trying to fall asleep at night 5.) Any refference made to competition between these two is absurd. A.) Dylan writes to transcend the specific instance that inspired him... 1.) extensive traditional music training B.) Ochs wrote to GLORIFY the specific incidence that inspired him... 2.) popular song training?

I'm sorry, but I don't think Dylan dissed Ochs any more than he dissed everything else in his vicinity, and Ochs couldn't stop going out of his way to try to get the messenger killed... These guys were/are tallented songwriters, and both had a bone to pick. But most of all, they were playing for crouds that were not so appathetic and sheltered as most of us are now. Well, I guess we'll have to listen more closely if we are to hear that little tiny complaining voice in the psyche of the common man screeming to no effect through the layers of fat and fancy...

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: BK
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 12:00 AM

Fact: dylan was more famous & financially successful. Does this mean in engineering a successful mass appeal he stooped to a least-common-denominator level of communication, or pandered to the crowd? (Or made people feel ok because EVERYBODY'S voice was better than his..?)

The rest is opinion. I always found dylan a mixed bag at best. Never really liked his voice, but it worked well for some songs.

I can't see in him some special intrinsic merit greater than Phil & may other writers & singers. In fact, for the most part I find less merit or memorable in dylan than in Phil or almost any "peer" or contemporary of his. I don't listen to his old albums, but I do listen to MANY others from then (& now).

& when I found out about the trad song "The Leavin' of Liverpool" I really felt ripped off by dylan

As for being a "reporter." What's wrong w/that? One of the many things real artists do is "report" their observations of humanity, the world, etc thru their art.. They illuminate, explain, inform, record such for posterity, etc...

1 man's opinion. BK

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 11:17 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: GUEST,Jim Dean of India
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 04:20 PM

Let's not forget that Bob at one point said ``I just can't keep up with Phil. And he's getting better and better and better.'' if he meant it then he might very well have been jelous of phil. If he didn't who knows. Either way, you know never know if Dylan means something or is just being his pretentious fuck of a self. Jim

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 03:21 PM

It occurs to me from time to time that the people who perform, and especially those who write, seem to carry around a lot of anger. It may be that if you find an effective way to channel it outward, you can end up a success, and if you let it turn back on yourself, you end up like--Well, you can fill in the names yourselves...

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 01:41 PM

The real pity in this whole thing was that Phil Ochs cared so much about what Bob Dylan and others said about him. There is plenty of room for both of them in my toon library, just as there is plenty of room for journalists and poets in my words library.

As President Jack Nicholson said in "Mars Attacks", "Can't we all just . . .get along."

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: Peter T.
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 12:44 PM

Steve, the story is slightly exaggerated. I occasionally frequented the Riverboat, and while I remember it being damp from time to time, I can't believe that there was a terrible snowstorm at the Riverboat -- if so, the four patrons were noble. And of course, the fact that Joni, like all sensible people would have the urge for going and not leave would be remarkable. Wait a minute!! I feel a song coming on!!!

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Why did Dylan dis Phil Ochs?
From: L R Mole
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 12:31 PM

Amergin: precisely my point. You let art of any sort out, and prople will find stuff in there beyond what you say or intend. Da Vinci probably thought of Mona as some patroness with bad teeth.