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Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers

Susan of DT 01 Jul 00 - 04:47 PM
Sandy Paton 01 Jul 00 - 05:07 PM
Susan of DT 15 Jul 00 - 11:37 AM
sophocleese 15 Jul 00 - 04:14 PM
Joe Offer 15 Jul 00 - 05:30 PM
dick greenhaus 15 Jul 00 - 05:36 PM
Susan of DT 16 Jul 00 - 02:24 AM
Mrrzy 16 Jul 00 - 01:40 PM
Susan of DT 16 Jul 00 - 03:47 PM
Susan of DT 16 Jul 00 - 04:45 PM
Bill D 16 Jul 00 - 06:46 PM
GUEST,Mrr sans cookie? I thought I reset it... 17 Jul 00 - 01:24 PM
GUEST,Mrr-again 17 Jul 00 - 01:38 PM
GUEST,Mrr 17 Jul 00 - 01:39 PM
GUEST 16 Feb 12 - 08:27 AM
Susan of DT 16 Feb 12 - 11:38 AM
Brian Peters 16 Feb 12 - 01:26 PM
Richie 16 Feb 12 - 11:08 PM
Richie 16 Feb 12 - 11:43 PM
Richie 16 Feb 12 - 11:57 PM
Steve Gardham 17 Feb 12 - 10:59 AM
Phil Edwards 12 Mar 12 - 06:53 PM
Steve Gardham 12 Mar 12 - 07:00 PM
Phil Edwards 12 Mar 12 - 07:30 PM
Jim Dixon 18 Jul 15 - 11:23 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 15 - 08:33 AM
Uncle_DaveO 19 Jul 15 - 10:36 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 15 - 10:42 AM
The Sandman 19 Jul 15 - 01:22 PM
Lighter 19 Jul 15 - 01:37 PM
Richard Mellish 19 Jul 15 - 06:15 PM
Richie 19 Jul 15 - 09:27 PM
Lighter 20 Jul 15 - 06:30 AM
Richard Mellish 20 Jul 15 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,Anne Neilson 20 Jul 15 - 11:27 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 15 - 12:53 PM
Steve Gardham 20 Jul 15 - 01:49 PM
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Subject: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Susan of DT
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 04:47 PM

Classification of songs is not always very useful, but Child attempted it and most people try to use his scheme.

Look at #13 Edward Ballad and #49 the Two Brothers. These seem the same to me. And I don't know why within #49 Rolling of the Stones is included (by Joe Hickerson).

Has anyone any light to shed on this?


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 05:07 PM

Do you figure that #49 is a "prequel" to #13, Susan?

Sandy


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Susan of DT
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 11:37 AM

The trouble with BS threads is that threads like this flash by and are lost without anyone seeing them. I'll restate the question: Where in Hell did Little Susie enter the ballad? She's not mentioned at all in Child, nor is her charming the dead to life.

Should this really be a different ballad? Opinions, please.

dick greenhaus (who was too lazy to change cookies)


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: sophocleese
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 04:14 PM

Umm, I have an album by Eileen McGann where she does Rolling of the Stones. When she introduces the song in performance she says that its one song that split into two. I don't know where she got this information but it makes sense. I think of another song called the Unquiet Grave, which is in the database if you search under Unquiet Grave, when I hear it.


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Subject: Child and Laws - Classification of Ballads
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 05:30 PM

I need a little instruction here. Susan, when you say that Child classifyhs songs, do you mean that all the songs listed under #13 are one class, or does he draw connections between #13 and something else? It often seems that songs with consecutive numbers in Child are interrelated.

Anyhow, can you tell us more about Child's system of classification? I'm just starting to get a taste, and my appetite has been whetted.

Oh, and after you get me to understand Child, can we go on to Laws???? [grin]

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 05:36 PM

Joe- Child numbers are grouped vaguely by type, but only vaguely. Robin Hood ballads, for example, are listed more or less consecutively. Each number, though, was meant by FJC to be a unique ballad. Trouble seems to be that when he did this only God and Francis James Child fully comprehended his system. Now, Child is dead.
As far as Laws is concerned, He used a letter/number combination in which the letter was supposed to be a descriptor of the type of ballad, and the numbers were simply consecutive examples. Trouble is, Laws never explained his basis for separation, and used examples that aren't readily available.
Susan spent an unGodly amount of effort trying to p[rovide examples of all the Laws numbers in DigiTrad, but I don't think that even God knew why there are five or so "Plains of Waterloo" listed by Laws, or what distinguished one from another.
Still trying to find out where Little Susie came from. She appears in one version Sharp collected in (I think) Kuntucky, and in Linscott's Folk Songs of Old New England.


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Susan of DT
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 02:24 AM

Joe - Mostly Child seemed to be saying "these are song 1 and these are song 2" with some attempt to group related songs that he saw at about the same time into adjacent numbers, so it not a hierarchical system (like Laws with definate groups). Child roughly grouped magical songs, border sallads, incest songs, robin hood, etc. but then added others he found later into higher numbers. It is not always clear to me why some related songs are lumped into 1 number and others are split into 2 or more.
Sandy - yes, to some extent the Two Brothers could be a prequel to Edward, giving some reason for the fratricide. And in some versions of the Two Brothers, they both love Pretty Susie, giving it some tie to Rolling of the Stones, but hardly a strong one.
Sophecleese - In the Unquiet Grave the living lover mourns at the grave for a year and a day (not magical) disturbing the dead lover and Pretty Susie charms the dead lover from his grave (magical) right after he dies. Again, some relation, but no real strong.


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 01:40 PM

Wasn't there a thread about this a while back? Talking about murder/ghost ballads, and how the living lover usually has to mourn for a year and a day, and when the dead lover rises they refuse to kiss the living for fear of being followed into the grave. This happens in The Unquiet Grave, and most version of 2 brothers... BUT what I find most interesting is that in The Suffolk Miracle, it's slightly different. There the dead one rises with no effort of mourning on the part of the living, since she doesn't even know he's dead. So when she sees him he claims a headache, so she kisses him and notices that he's "cold as clay" - the usual excuse given by the ghost for not kissing the mourner. Then he vanishes with her handkerchief, found still 'round his head when they dig up the grave to show her that he's really dead, since she won't believe it. I always wondered if after the end of the song, she died, since all the other songs said you'd die if you kissed the dead lover...

Sorry about the ramble, I am trying to jog y'all's memory to find the other thread, since I can't.


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Susan of DT
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 03:47 PM

In the Suffolk Miracle the dead lover is keeping a promised appointment with her and begging back his "plighted troth" to end his entanglements to the living, or so some professor said once.
I'm going to go look up some Two Brothers, since I do not remember any that involve a lover at all (beyond what shall I tell her when I get home), much less rising from the dead or having the woman present. I'll come back with a count from Child and others shortly.


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Susan of DT
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 04:45 PM

Ok, I stand corrected. There are several versions that include both the unintentional killing and the charming and I did not see the stepmother anywhere. I looked at the 7 versions of Child 49 in child, 11 in Davis (Traditional Ballads of Virginia), and 1 in Linscott (New England).

Child A: brother kill, say I'm dead, no charm
Child B: brother kill, Lady Margaret harps him out of grave
Child C: brother kill, lover weeps him out of grave
Child D-G: brothr kill, tell them..., how comes the blood...
Davis A, B, F, H, K: brothr kill, Susie charm, kiss
Davis C, G, E: brother kill, tell her I'm dead, no charm (name Little Sweetie in G, E)
Davis D: brother kill, half verse on charm not tied in
Davis I: charm, kiss, little else left
Davis J: short, no lover
Linscott: no brothers, just Susie & lover & charm

so, of 19 versions so far
charming from grave in 2 versions
otherwise moved from grave in 2 verisons
brother kill brother in 17 versions
kiss or clay in 8 versions
how comes the blood in 4 versions
stepmother incited the murder in none
I'll look at some more and see if I can find where the stepmother came from.


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 06:46 PM

in most of the songs like this, I always 'suspect' that there was originally one story, but in the days of almost TOTAL oral tradition, the story was mis-rembered, 'improved', shortened...etc..i.e. processed....we can seldom prove it one way or the other, but we still learn a lot about ourselves as we try to find a 'reasonable' explanation for the variants and similarities. (Maybe they changed 'em to get around an early version of Harry Fox? *grin*)


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: GUEST,Mrr sans cookie? I thought I reset it...
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 01:24 PM

Anyway. Susan of DT, the version I have of the Suffolk Miracle must differ from yours. There is no promised appointment, and she doesn't find out he's dead till he's been dead for the prescribed 12 months before rising and going after her. In fact it has one of the funniest lines I've ever heard in a ghost ballad: "The young man rose / Put on his clothes / ..." - I've always wondered whether his clothes were left on his grave for him? Were they the clothes in which he was buried that his "ghost" had to remove from the corpse before going off? Anyway, I'll post those lyrics as a LyrAdd, since they aren't in the DT.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE SUFFOLK MIRACLE
From: GUEST,Mrr-again
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 01:38 PM

Hi, it wouldn't let me do a Lyrics Add, maybe something about my lost cookie. Anyway, here they are:

THE SUFFOLK MIRACLE
(Dean Gitter on Bloody Ballads?? Remembered/slightly amended by Mrrzy)

There was an old and a wealthy man.
He had a daughter fine and grand.
She was handsome, neat and tall
And dancèd to no lover's call.

Many a squire came this way
The handsome lady for to see.
At length there was a widow's son.
'Twas found he was her chosen one.

When her old folks came this to know,
They sent her far away from home,
Which broke this young man's tender heart
When he and his true love did part.

His day had come, his hour had passed,
Into his grave he went at last.
When he'd been no more than twelve months dead,
Up from the grave he raised his head.

This young man rose, put on his clothes,
And after her he chose to go.
It was a dark and cheerless night
When he started for his heart's delight.

When he'd come to the place he knew,
He said: "My love, I've come for you.
At your mother's wish and your father's heed,
I've come for you all in great speed."

She dressed herself in rich attire
And rode away with her heart's desire.
But ere they came to her father's gate,
He complained and cried how his head did ache.

Her handkerchief she then took out
And with it tied his head about.
She kissed his lips and then did say:
"My dear, you're colder than the clay."

"Get down, get down, get down," he cried,
"While I go put this steed inside!"
But when she knocked at her father's door,
The sight of him she saw no more.

When her father saw her, he did say:
"Who's come with you this very long way?"
"Well, the one I love, I love so well,
I love him more than tongue can tell."

The hair did rise on the old man's head
For he knew her love had long been dead.
He wrung his hands and he wept full sore,
Crying out, "My child, your love's no more!"

They sent for clerk and clergy too
To open the grave and the corpse to view.
And though he had been twelve months' dead,
The handkerchief was 'round his head.


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 01:39 PM

Forgot to mention, my version is closest to the one in the Trad as Suffolk Miracle - no The, no numeral 3 after it.


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 08:27 AM

Child lists this under Twa Brothers (Additions and Corrections)apparently as Version I:

I
P. 435, V, 217. Communicated by Mr. J.K. Hudson of Manchester. Sung after a St. George play regularly acted on All Souls' Day at a village a few miles from Chester, and written down for Mr. Hudson by one of the performers, a lad of sixteen. The play was introduced by a song called Souling (similar to a Stephening, see I, 234), and followed by two songs, of which this is the last, the whole dramatic company singing.

1   'And it's where hast thou been all this night long, my son?
Come tell it unto me.'
'I have been lying on yonder bull-rushes,
Which lies beneath yond tree.'

2   'And it's what are the spots on this thy coat, my son?
Come tell it unto me.'
'They are the spots of my poor brother's blood,
Which lies beneath yonder tree.'

3   'And it's what didst thou kill thy poor brother for, my son?
Come tell it unto me.'
'Because he killed two pretty little birds,
Which flew from tree to tree.'

4   'And it's what will the father say when he comes, my son?
Come tell it unto me.'
'I will dress me up in sailor's clothes,
And my face he will never see.'

5   'And it's what wilt thou do with thy pretty little wife, my son?
Come tell it unto me.'
'I will dress her up in lad[d]ie's clothes,
And she will sail along with me.'

6   'And it's what wilt thou do with thy children three, my son?
Come tell it unto me.'
'I will leave them to my poor grandfather to rear,
And comfort [to] him [to be].'

7   'And it's when shall we see thy face again, my son?
Come tell it unto me.'
'When the sun and moon shines both at once,
And that shall never be.'

Seems like a version of Edward to me. Don't see the two Brothers connection. Anyone?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Susan of DT
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 11:38 AM

It looks like I was confusing some of the ghostly lover ballads back in 2000.

She did not know he was dead:
   Child 272 Suffolk Miracle - ghost comes, takes lover home, doesn't say he is dead, open grave to show her, handkerchief around neck
   Child 77 Sweet William's Ghost - ghost comes for plighted troth, tells her he is dead, no room for her in grave
   Child 248 Grey Cock - keeps appointment, tells her he is dead, spends night, leaves at (early) cockcrow

She/he knew he was dead, got him out of grave some way or other:
   Child 78 Unquiet grave - wept on his grave, he come up to say "stop it"
   Child 49 Rolling of the Stones/Two Brothers - in some versions she charms him from his grave. [I had trouble understanding how Two brothers and Rolling of the Stones were the same ballad until I heard Paul Davenport's version Rolling of the Stones ]
[Child 79 Wife of Usher's Well - mother asked for dead sons' return]
   
I may have left out some.
All of these ballads have versions in the Digital Tradition, search for "Child #[whatever]"


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Brian Peters
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 01:26 PM

"Seems like a version of Edward to me. Don't see the two Brothers connection. Anyone?"

That's really interesting. First: thanks, Richie for drawing to my attention a version of Child 13 from my part of England, that I'd missed up to now. And associated with a Mummers' play, too!

Second, I agree that it looks much more like Child 13.

It seems to me that the essential characteristics of 'Twa Brothers', as defined by Child's seven texts (all Scottish with the exception of G, from New England) are:

(a) The two brothers are going to school.
(b) One stabs the other, in the course of a wrestling match.
(c) Attempts are made to wipe away the bloodstains.
(d) The dead brother is buried.
(e) Formulaic stanzas describe the excuses for the deceased's non-appearance, based on his absence in foreign lands, that will be offered to his relatives.

To these essentails is added (49B,C) a coda in which the dead brother's sweetheart charms him from his grave by musical means, and a verse or two properly belonging to The Unquiet Grave are appended.

In 49 D, E, F & G, the burial is followed by several 'What's That Blood?' verses, and the 'When Will You Return?' sequence (usually answered by reference to some unlikely antics on the part of the sun and moon) that are usually associated with #13.

The interesting thing is to look at the forty versions in Bronson, mostly from Appalachia. Just about all of them include the walk to school, the wrestling match, attempts to staunch the bleeding, and the burial arrangements. Several (e.g. #10, from Sharp MSS, Virginia) add the 'Unquiet Grave' stanzas, while a different Virigina version has the girlfriend raise the corpse by playing the banjo!

Only one of the 40 ends with the 'What's That Blood?' verses, and that's a version from Vermont (clearly of recent Scottish origin) in the Flanders collection, which Bronson called 'Edward Ballad'. It looks like a stich-up of 13 and 49.

All of which would suggest to me that the 'What's That Blood' verses are interpolations to the 'Two Brothers', effected back in Scotland at some point after the mass emigration of Scottish Lowlanders, first to Ulster and then to Appalachia, where they formed the 'Scoth-Irish' diaspora. The addition of the 'Unquiet Grave' verses looks like a separate and possibly earlier interpolation.

There's a bigger overlap between 'Edward' and 'Lizzie Wan' (#51), of course.


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Richie
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 11:08 PM

The immediate clues to me were...

'I have been lying on yonder bull-rushes,
Which lies beneath yond tree.'

and especially...

'Because he killed two pretty little birds,
Which flew from tree to tree.'

Both found in Edward, it was clear to me when I first saw it. Also this establishes a Version I whether misplaced or not. Version E is not from Motherwell p. 60, it's a collation and is found on p. 270 of the Ballad Minstrelsy of Scotland. Maybe I missed something,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Richie
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 11:43 PM

Sorry for this long post but I knew I'd seen this version and it was a version of Edward. Here's the info:

Two Songs and a Dance
Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, Vol. 3, No. 3 (Dec., 1938), pp. 203-210

THE SOULING PLAY
The Cheshire Soul-caking play is the mumming play of St. George-more usually performed in other localities at Easter or Christmas. But the Tarvin version is remarkable for its introduction of two songs which have no connection with the play, one being "Jim the carter lad" and the other a traditional version of "Edward"! The latter is of extraordinary interest as the sole traditional version ever-as far as I am aware-recovered in England, Percy's and Motherwell's copies being in Scots dialect. No name is given to the tragic " my son," who is also nameless in the American versions, Appalachian and Virginian, which I have seen; and I suspect that Percy himself was responsible for an alteration of the homely "Son Davy, Son Davy" of Motherwell's version to " Edward, Edward." If so, it was an ill-considered improvement, as the name "Edward" was abhorrent to Scottish ears, the "proud usurper" even in Burns's day being associated with " chains and slaverie," and his name about the last to be bestowed upon an infant son. As the "Edward" ballad has hitherto been supposed to have perished in England (Motherwell's copy of 1827 being the latest extant) and as this traditional copy (given without any title) has turned up in a place where nobody would look for it, it is here given as written down -for Mr. J. K. Hudson c. 1891 by one of the actors, a lad of sixteen. Unfortunately the tune cannot now be recovered. I have divided the long lines in which the singer wrote it into the proper verse form. The subject of the brothers' quarrel is here varied from Motherwell and most American versions, where the dispute arises over a sapling which one of the brothers cuts down to the vexation of the other, and which "might have been a tree."


[EDWARD]

1. "And it's where hast thou been all this night long, my son?
Come tell it unto me."
"I have been lying on yonder bull-rushes
Which lies beneath yond tree."

2. "And it's what are the spots on this thy coat, my son?
Come tell it unto me."
"They are the spots of my poor brother's blood
Which lies beneath yonder tree."

3. "And it's what didst thou kill thy poor brother for, my son?
Come tell it unto me."
"Because he killed two pretty little birds
Which flew from tree to tree."

4. And it's what will thy father say, when he comes, my son?
Come tell it unto me."
"I will dress me up in sailor's clothes,
And my face he will never see."

5. "And it's what will thou do with thy pretty little wife, my son?
Come tell it unto me."
"I will dress her up in ladies' clothes,
And she will sail along with me."

6. "And it's what will thou do with thy children three, my son?
Come tell it unto me."
"I will leave them to my poor grandfather to rear,
And comfort (to) him (to be)."

7. "And it's when shall we see thy face again, my son?
Come tell it unto me."
"When the sun and moon shines both at once.-
And that shall never be."

NOTE ON "EDWARD"
This ballad, in the same mother-and-son dialogue form is known in Denmark and Sweden, and Professor Otto Andersson of Aba, Finland, has recently (I934) published in Finlands Svenska Folk Diktning a collection of Swedish folk-ballads found in Finland, including six (out of fourteen) variants of this ballad, with their tunes, under the title of Sven i Rosengard. These extend the bitter bequests-which are no gifts-made by the tragic Sven, and also elaborate ad lib the " When wilt thou return?" motif. Sven answers that he will return "When the swan turns black." "When will that be?" "When the crow turns white" and so on. Finally, "When the stars fall from the sky"-and that "will be?" "On the great Doomsday!! "-an effective finis.- A. G. G.


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Richie
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 11:57 PM

Of course this is from Gilchrist, one of the excellent ballad tune authorities.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 10:59 AM

Richie,
If you look at Roud you'll see there are plenty of English 'Edwards' (I detest that title). The Cheshire Mummers version is particularly close geographically to the several versions found in the Pennines west of Sheffield and still very much sung there. Cheshire and Yorkshire are just a short hop across the hill, here. As an American looking at the map you'd probably think they were in each other's back yards.


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 12 Mar 12 - 06:53 PM

Two notes on "Two Brothers".

Bert Lloyd wrote, in the sleevenotes to Bellamy's The fox jumps over the parson's gate:

"The song has its relatives not only in Britain but on the continent too, and tracing its sundry versions we find tha tit concerns not merely a violent bit of schoolboy horseplay but a murderous quarrel over a patch of land, and beyond that, in the oldest versions of all, we find that the root of the dispute is in incestuous jealousy, with both brothers enamoured of their sister."

Emphasis added. None of Child's texts feature incestuous lust. This may be an element in some version somewhere; I don't know about "oldest".

Then, following leads on another thread, I found this at Jack's "Embro" site:

"In July 1588, William, one of the sons of Somerville of Drum, accidentally killed his brother John with a pistol; his father at first thought it was murder and William had to flee. The family never recovered from the tragedy and lost all its wealth and power over the next few generations. Folk tradition sometimes declares it was murder prompted by rivalry over a girl, and almost always has the killing done with a knife. The more precise and detailed a version of this ballad is, the less it has in common with the historical events."

I'm inclined to believe this; I think lurid detail is more likely to attach itself to a story over the years than to be lost, as Lloyd's suggestion would require.


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Mar 12 - 07:00 PM

It would take some pretty astounding evidence and a time machine to link any of these ballads to 'historical events'


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 12 Mar 12 - 07:30 PM

I think Jack's "genuine incident, later embroidered in the telling" has more of a ring of truth than Lloyd's "ancient archetypal myth, later made more prosaic in the telling". But I agree that the True Origin of an old song will always be a bit of a chimera.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE SUFFOLK MIRACLE (1723)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 18 Jul 15 - 11:23 PM

This is the oldest printed version I can find of The Suffolk Miracle, from A Collection of Old Ballads edited by Ambrose Philips (London: J. Roberts, 1723), page 266:

XXXVIII. The Suffolk Miracle: Or, A Relation of a Young Man, who a Month after his Death appear'd to his Sweetheart, and carry'd her on Horseback behind him for forty Miles in two Hours, and was never seen after but in his Grave.

To the Tune of, My Bleeding Heart, &c.

A wonder stranger n'er was known
Than what I now shall treat upon,
In Suffolk there did lately dwell,
A Farmer rich, and known full well.

He had a Daughter fair and bright,
On whom he placed his whole Delight;
Her Beauty was beyond compare,
She was both Virtuous and Fair,

There was a young Man living by,
Who was so charmed with her Eye,
That he could never be at rest.
He was by Love so much possest:

He made Address to her, and she,
Did grant him Love immediately;
But when her Father came to hear,
He parted her, and her poor Dear:

Forty Miles distant was she sent,
Unto his Brother's, with Intent
That she should there so long remain,
Till she had chang'd her Mind again.

Hereat this Young Man sadly griev'd,
But knew not how to be reliev'd;
He sigh'd and sob'd continually,
That his true Love he could not see.

She by no Means could to him send,
Who was her Heart's espoused Friend;
He sigh'd, he griev'd, but all in vain,
For she confin'd must still remain.

He mourn'd so much, that Doctor's Art
Could give no Ease unto his Heart,
Who was so strangely terrified,
That in short time for Love he dy'd.

She that from him was sent away,
Knew nothing of his Dying-day,
But constant still she did remain,
And lov'd the Dead, altho' in vain.

After he had in Grave been laid
A Month or more, unto this Maid
He came in middle of the Night,
Who joy'd to see her Heart's Delight.

Her Father's Horse, which well she knew,
Her Mother's Hood and Safe-Guard too,
He brought with him, to testify,
Her Parents Order he came by.

Which when her Uncle understood,
He hop'd it would be for her good,
And gave Consent to her straitway,
That with him she should come away.

When she was got her Love behind,
They pass'd as swift as any Wind,
That in two Hours, or little more,
He brought her to her Father's Door.

But as they did this great Haste make,
He did complain his Head did ake;
Her Handkerchief she then took out,
And ty'd the same his Head about:

And unto him she thus did say,
Thou art as cold as any Clay;
When we come Home a Fire we'll have;
But little dream'd he went to Grave.

Soon were they at her Father's Door,
And after she n'er saw him more:
I'll set the Horse up, then he said,
And there he left this harmless Maid.

She knock'd, and strait a Man he cry'd,
Who's there? 'Tis I, she then reply'd;
Who wonder'd much her Voice to hear,
And was possess'd with Dread and Fear.

Her Father he did tell, and then
He star'd like an affrighted Man;
Down Stairs he ran, and when he see her,
Cry'd out, My Child, how cam'st thou here?

Pray Sir, did you not send for me,
By such a Messenger, said she;
Which made his Hair stare on his Head,
As knowing well that he was dead:

Where is he? then to her he said,
He's in the Stable, quoth the Maid.
Go in, said he, and go to Bed,
I'll see the Horse well littered.

He stair'd about, and there could he
No Shape of any Mankind see,
But found his Horse all on a Sweat,
Which made him in a deadly Fret.

His Daughter he said nothing to,
Nor none else, tho' full well they knew,
That he was dead a Month before,
For fear of grieving her full sore.

Her Father to the Father went
Of the Deceas'd, with full Intent
To tell him what his Daughter said,
So both came back unto this Maid.

They ask'd her, and she still did say,
'Twas he that then brought her away;
Which when they heard, they were amaz'd,
And on each other strangely gaz'd.

A Handkerchief she said she ty'd
About his Head; and that they try'd,
The Sexton they did speak unto,
That he the Grave would then undo:

Affrighted, then they did behold
His Body turning into Mould,
And though he had a Month been dead,
This Handkerchief was about his Head.

This thing unto her then they told,
And the whole Truth they did unfold;
She was thereat so terrified
And grieved, that she quickly died.

Part not true Love, you rich Men then,
But if they be right honest Men
Your Daughters love, give them their way,
For Force oft breeds their Lives decay.


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 08:33 AM

"It would take some pretty astounding evidence and a time machine to link any of these ballads to 'historical events'
One of the first Travellers we recorded, 'Pop's' Johnny Connors, from Wexford, referred to the ballad 'Edward' as 'Cain and Abel', introduced it with the biblical story and told us that Cain being cast out by god was the start of Travellers taking to the road.
Can't say fairer than that!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 10:36 AM

As to the lines,
"When the sun and moon shine both at once
And that shall never be."


I don't know where these people lived, but in
every place I've ever resided it was not unusual
at all to see the moon shining in the sky while
the sun was still up.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 10:42 AM

In most versions I'm familiar with it goes:
When the sun and the moon ris up on yonder hill"
A bit more unusual, I think
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 01:22 PM

the version i sing, goes when the sun and the moon rise in yon glen, that is what jeannie robertson sang


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 01:37 PM

Nobody said the "folk process" had to make sense.


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 06:15 PM

The suggestion that The Two Brothers and Edward are successive episodes in what was previously (let's not say "originally"!) a single story reminds me of the recent discussion in the Origins: George Collins: revisited thread about about Child 42 and 85 being probably parts of a single story. It is certainly possible to construct a story starting with rivalry between the brothers over a girl (who might or might not be their sister), followed by the killing "accidentally on purpose", then the dialogue with the mother including the nuncupative* will and the list of impossible events that will precede the murderer's return to his home, and finally the girl's weeping/singing/charming the dead brother out of his grave "because that he couldn't get no rest" as one of the American versions has it.

But equally the folk seem to have been happy with having them as separate stories. You pays your money …

*A word I had not met until I read Archer Taylor's fascinating book "Edward and Sven I Rosengard†: A Study In The Dissemination Of The Ballad".

† sic, but should be Rosengård


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Richie
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 09:27 PM

Hi,

First the versions of Child 272 Suffolk Miracle don't really belong in this tread.

I agree with Richard Mellish that both ballad have been joined- then separated into Edward and either Child 49 (Twas Brothers) or 51 (Lizie Wan). According to Taylor, Child 49 D-G begin with Twa Brothers and end with Edward. Child 49 H and I begin with Lizie Wan and end with Edward.

The Edward Ballad which I believe is a ballad recreation of sorts by George Edwards of Vermont (not the NY George Edwards) was classified as a version of Edward (Flanders) but Bronson who correctly changed it to a version of Twa Brothers. Child 49 I has been identified by Gilchrist as a version of Edward and I agree but there are elements of both.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 06:30 AM

> It is certainly possible to construct a story

Yes. But that does not show that a ballad once included both parts.

Only that it might have.

Without an actual "full" text, or an early description of one, it's only conjecture.


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 09:59 AM

>> It is certainly possible to construct a story

> Yes. But that does not show that a ballad once included both parts.

> Only that it might have.

> Without an actual "full" text, or an early description of one, it's only conjecture.

Certainly. As I said, You pays your money …

This is another instance, as with Child 42 and 85, where it might make more sense to classify ballads like folk tales, by listing the elements present in each instance, than to number them as discrete entities.


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: GUEST,Anne Neilson
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 11:27 AM

Don't know if it helps, but I have a lovely memory of the traveller singer and storyteller Betsy Whyte at a performance in Kilmarnock folk club in the early 80s (?).
At around 9.45pm she started off on a story of the Silly Jack variety -- set him off on his quest with many variables and lots of repetitions, and 45 minutes later the organiser was subtly indicating a wind-up sign. A true professional, Betsy brought the story to a conclusion in a most tidy and satisfactory way, so that everyone felt they had resolution -- but my car passenger on the journey home told me that she had embarked on a major tale and was, in fact, only a third of the way through it!

SO, should we rather be applauding the creative energies of earlier performers who might have annexed other stories for their own purposes, rather than seeking for a possible UR-source which may never have existed?

I realise that there are potential confusions in my argument, but I'm pushing for the position that singers make 'good' versions to suit their own (psychological) reading of a basic text. And I'm also willing to bet that sometimes they may not even have realised that they've done so!


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 12:53 PM

"Betsy Whyte at a performance in Kilmarnock folk club in the early 80s"
A similar thing happened to Willie McPhee at the Singers Club in the 1980s.
Singers and storytellers were constantly adapting songs and stories to suit the prevailing circumstances.
We recorded 2 versions of The True Lover's Discussion (a song describing a religious discussion between two lovers)
Martin Reidy sang a 15 minute version of it in his home, yet, when asked for it at a singing session, he cut at least five minutes from it - he happily agreed to sing it in full when people who knew it requested him to.
WE recorded the song from his neighbour, Tom Lenihan - his lasted a little over five minutes.
When we asked Tom where he learned it, he replied, "from Martin - but his is far too long to sing in public".
Yet some storytellers would not adapt their stories - they would rather not tell them
Collector, Tom Munnelly told of his experience when he was recording an Irish speaking storyteller (Tom always said his Irish was not great)
The man refused to be recorded until they had had a drink, so the both adjourned to a bar over the road.
When they returned after a few pints, they sat down in front of a roaring fire and the teller launched into a two-hour story (in Irish).
By the time he was reaching the end, Tom was dozing off and the teller was pretty exhausted.
He got to the last run of the tale, where the hero dismisses his three animal helpers one by one - and he stopped; "I have that wrong - I'll start again" (he had dismissed the animals in the wrong order)
Tom hastily arranged to come back at a later date.
It seems to depend on the singer/storyteller and the circumstances
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Ballads: Edward vs 2 Brothers
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 01:49 PM

Great story, Jim!

Richie/Richard
Since we last deliberated on the Clerk Colvill/Lady Alice discussion I have had a closer look at both ballads in relation to continental versions. Whilst it cannot be denied that both are part of the same original story I don't think they were ever related in the English language. What I now suggest is more likely is that both ballads are based on versions of the story from different areas. The only continental version that has his death caused by any sort of water-related being is the Breton ballad. George Collins/Lady Alice has closer affinity to the Italian versions.


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