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Women's HearMe?

GUEST,harpgirl 01 Jul 00 - 05:35 PM
Amergin 01 Jul 00 - 05:41 PM
GUEST,harpgirl 01 Jul 00 - 05:46 PM
JenEllen 01 Jul 00 - 05:49 PM
Jon Freeman 01 Jul 00 - 05:52 PM
GUEST,harpgirl 01 Jul 00 - 05:53 PM
Áine 01 Jul 00 - 05:54 PM
Clinton Hammond2 01 Jul 00 - 06:21 PM
Bill D 01 Jul 00 - 06:30 PM
The Shambles 01 Jul 00 - 06:36 PM
Amergin 01 Jul 00 - 06:45 PM
The Shambles 01 Jul 00 - 06:58 PM
Áine 01 Jul 00 - 07:02 PM
Jon Freeman 01 Jul 00 - 07:16 PM
Little Neophyte 01 Jul 00 - 07:48 PM
Llanfair 01 Jul 00 - 07:54 PM
harpgirl 01 Jul 00 - 07:59 PM
The Shambles 01 Jul 00 - 08:07 PM
Jon Freeman 01 Jul 00 - 08:09 PM
harpgirl 01 Jul 00 - 08:10 PM
Little Neophyte 01 Jul 00 - 08:14 PM
Mbo 01 Jul 00 - 08:16 PM
Jon Freeman 01 Jul 00 - 08:18 PM
JenEllen 01 Jul 00 - 08:19 PM
Áine 01 Jul 00 - 08:26 PM
Sailor Dan 01 Jul 00 - 08:32 PM
katlaughing 01 Jul 00 - 08:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Jul 00 - 08:41 PM
Amergin 01 Jul 00 - 08:50 PM
Jon Freeman 01 Jul 00 - 09:01 PM
Helen 01 Jul 00 - 09:08 PM
IvanB 01 Jul 00 - 09:10 PM
Áine 01 Jul 00 - 09:21 PM
MAG (inactive) 01 Jul 00 - 09:27 PM
Helen 01 Jul 00 - 09:37 PM
harpgirl 01 Jul 00 - 09:38 PM
Helen 01 Jul 00 - 09:44 PM
harpgirl 01 Jul 00 - 09:47 PM
Mbo 01 Jul 00 - 09:53 PM
Ebbie 01 Jul 00 - 09:58 PM
IvanB 01 Jul 00 - 10:43 PM
Jon Freeman 01 Jul 00 - 10:56 PM
Áine 01 Jul 00 - 11:02 PM
Jeri 01 Jul 00 - 11:12 PM
Áine 01 Jul 00 - 11:33 PM
Jon Freeman 01 Jul 00 - 11:44 PM
Bill D 01 Jul 00 - 11:54 PM
Jon Freeman 02 Jul 00 - 12:06 AM
Bugsy 02 Jul 00 - 12:17 AM
Jon Freeman 02 Jul 00 - 12:25 AM
Amergin 02 Jul 00 - 12:28 AM
BK 02 Jul 00 - 12:59 AM
alison 02 Jul 00 - 01:08 AM
Joe Offer 02 Jul 00 - 02:21 AM
Amergin 02 Jul 00 - 03:00 AM
Jeri 02 Jul 00 - 08:23 AM
Noreen 02 Jul 00 - 09:00 AM
kendall 02 Jul 00 - 09:03 AM
Noreen 02 Jul 00 - 09:22 AM
SDShad 02 Jul 00 - 09:33 AM
SDShad 02 Jul 00 - 09:36 AM
bbelle 02 Jul 00 - 10:14 AM
Jeri 02 Jul 00 - 11:09 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Jul 00 - 11:20 AM
Jon Freeman 02 Jul 00 - 11:40 AM
Clinton Hammond2 02 Jul 00 - 12:53 PM
Jon Freeman 02 Jul 00 - 01:11 PM
Clinton Hammond2 02 Jul 00 - 02:07 PM
Áine 02 Jul 00 - 02:09 PM
Jon Freeman 02 Jul 00 - 02:27 PM
KT 02 Jul 00 - 02:30 PM
Clinton Hammond2 02 Jul 00 - 05:34 PM
Terry K 02 Jul 00 - 05:49 PM
Joe Offer 02 Jul 00 - 06:03 PM
Big Mick 02 Jul 00 - 06:04 PM
Amergin 02 Jul 00 - 06:25 PM
The Shambles 02 Jul 00 - 06:27 PM
Big Mick 02 Jul 00 - 06:30 PM
harpgirl 02 Jul 00 - 06:38 PM
Jon Freeman 02 Jul 00 - 07:03 PM
harpgirl 02 Jul 00 - 07:36 PM
Ebbie 02 Jul 00 - 09:19 PM
catspaw49 02 Jul 00 - 09:36 PM
Áine 02 Jul 00 - 10:02 PM
SDShad 02 Jul 00 - 10:56 PM
JedMarum 03 Jul 00 - 12:08 AM
Spider Tom 03 Jul 00 - 01:07 AM
Áine 03 Jul 00 - 01:10 AM
Clinton Hammond2 03 Jul 00 - 03:07 AM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Jul 00 - 07:42 AM
kendall 03 Jul 00 - 08:04 AM
Jon Freeman 03 Jul 00 - 08:23 AM
Helen 03 Jul 00 - 08:33 AM
SDShad 03 Jul 00 - 10:16 AM
Bagpuss 03 Jul 00 - 11:23 AM
The Shambles 03 Jul 00 - 01:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Jul 00 - 02:01 PM
BlueJay 03 Jul 00 - 02:11 PM
Jon Freeman 03 Jul 00 - 02:30 PM
BK 03 Jul 00 - 10:56 PM
alison 04 Jul 00 - 04:17 AM
Bugsy 04 Jul 00 - 04:22 AM
alison 04 Jul 00 - 04:38 AM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Jul 00 - 05:59 AM
Bugsy 04 Jul 00 - 07:28 AM
The Shambles 04 Jul 00 - 09:07 AM
The Shambles 04 Jul 00 - 09:13 AM
katlaughing 04 Jul 00 - 02:02 PM
Helen 04 Jul 00 - 08:19 PM
GUEST,Barfy 04 Jul 00 - 10:23 PM
Jon Freeman 04 Jul 00 - 10:30 PM
Helen 05 Jul 00 - 10:05 PM
Jon Freeman 05 Jul 00 - 10:29 PM
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Subject: Women's HearMe?
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 05:35 PM

...I have been meaning to suggest a women's HearMe. the men could listen but only women participate. I think it would be a good opportunity to work on our music together, to give honest feedback, and to revel in our creativity. What do you say gals? When shall we do it???? harpgirl


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Amergin
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 05:41 PM

What a sexist idea.;)


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 05:46 PM

...ah heck Amergin...I went to girl's school and I believe that when women get together to teach and to learn it is very good for them. Boys have always distracted me!!!!Besides, the men do dominate HearMe and every other damn thing they get involved in with us!!!


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: JenEllen
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 05:49 PM

Lovely idea...when would you have it? I'm on the west coast, and the time differences never seem to work for me.
~Elle


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 05:52 PM

Harpy, could I suggest that if my hearme page is to be used for a slightly more exclusive than usual purpose, that the make a room option is used rather than the usual song circle room as that would allow others to play in an open song circle at the same time as your event if they wished to.

To do this all that is required is to notify people of the chosen room name eg women and for those wishing to participate to click on the button where it says "make a room", change "Enter a room name" to the chosen name and click on the link below.

I have said this before but this feature can be used by anyone to create a temporary private (or reasonably - nothing on the internet is guaranteed) room for what ever purpose is required. All that is needed is for the participants to agree on a room name.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 05:53 PM

maybe our resident brains can find a time which is most conducive to world-wide participation...how bout it kouhotek??


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Áine
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 05:54 PM

I think it's a grand idea, harpgirl! And the fellas could just sit and listen . . . it gets better the more I think about it . . . ;-)

-- Áine


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 06:21 PM

What a fantastic idea!!

Somebody message/ICQ/email me or whatever when ya figure out the details... I'll try to convince my woman to come along fer the ride...

[~`


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 06:30 PM

funny, ladies,..but around here in RT, it is often the women that set the pace and lead the music...guess we are just lucky to have such a great bunch in one community!...but I'd be honored to just sit & listen if you get a time worked out...might even get my wife Ferrara to join you!

(I do know what you mean though...there are a few personalities who seem to....ummmmmmm.....yeah...dominate is the best word I can think of..not sure it is always a 'male' thing, but...*sigh*)


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 06:36 PM

How about a gay only night or a whites only night?

Why would we want to exclude anyone? Is this not getting a little silly?


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Amergin
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 06:45 PM

Shambles, they just want to do this so they could feel bad about it later and post yet another public apology....

Amergin


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 06:58 PM

Well I am am sorry for 'shooting from the hip. I think I understand the reasons for the suggestion.

It seems however that the only way people can think of to encourage women's participation, is to exclude men?

Is there not a better way?


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Áine
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 07:02 PM

Dear Roger,

I don't think anybody here really wants to exclude anyone from a HearMe session -- I'm looking on it as one would an "all Blues" or "all Country" or "all Rock" night at a pub. If you'd like to sponsor an "all Men With Six Toes On One Foot Who Play Banjo Left-handed And Upside Down" HearMe session, go right ahead . . . in fact, I'd love to sit and listen to that.

I don't think harpgirl's trying to do a "diva" thing here, I think she's just trying to provide a forum for us ladies to get to know each other. And personally, if you want to come on in on the session, I'd be pleased as punch -- Just think of the built-in crowd of groupies! (Ladies, please do not stone me *BG*).

Lighten up, Roger. We're all friends here, and you know it.

-- Áine


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 07:16 PM

You had me worried for a minute Shambles as I thought you were suggesting that Harpgirl was being sexist and that her idea was on a par with the other prejudicies that you mentioned as opposed to being a sort of ladies gathering which is quite reasonable.

My only concern is the use of a general room for a slightly more exclusive event when there other rooms available but it is up to everybody who uses Hearme to work out what is for the best in cases like this - the current Hearme page may be on my site but it takes everybody's involvement to make it into anything good.

Having said that, your comments did make me think and although it would not happen amongst our company, I would shut my page down rather than allow it to be used to excercise the likes of racism, exclusion because of sexual orientation, etc.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 07:48 PM

Harpgirl, I'm game if you want to organize something in another room on Hearme.
Won't it be funny if one of the guys signs in under a women's monker and pretends he is one of the girls using a falsetto.
That would be hilarious.

Bonnie


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Llanfair
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 07:54 PM

I must be missing something here. Am I right in thinking that an exclusive Hearme is being considered acceptable?
Is there a suggestion that this is a way to avoid the session being monopolised by one person?
If there is a problem, girls, then say so, but I find all female groups of any kind uncomfortable, because I don't fit the mould properly, and separate groups are a way to divide and conquer.
Include me out. Bron.


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: harpgirl
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 07:59 PM

..Why do we have to make another room?Let's use the room we have and pick a time whereby the most women around the world can participate. Why do men immediately jump in and try to control, ridicule, tease, direct and otherwise comment? Be quiet you guys!!!! Sod off Roger, your response is irritating and provocative...I am talking to the ladies NOT the men!


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 08:07 PM

When you read a post on the forum, you will not know the race, age or sex of the writer. You may get some indication of their sex, if you read their name. That to me is one of the strengths of the forum. You get to understand what they are saying, without a lot of the usual rubbish getting in the way.

I have been thinking of doing so but I not yet participated in any of the Hear Me things. But there, if you can hear the voice of a participant you would I imagine, be able to determine their sex or possibly their nationality, but none of the other things, unless they tell you.

It would appear to me, to be sad to make the only distinction you can determine between participants in to a unnecessary division. For if none of the other differences matter, for the purposes of communicating songs and music, why on earth should that one?

If the problem is one of individuals 'hogging' the show, their sex is surely of no more significance that any of the other differences. It is just the only the one that can be determined by voice. Bad behaviour can be dealt with and this is not confined to one sex surely?

I have never made music with a single sex grouping and I would see no possible advantage in forming such a group.

My experiences of hearing single sex bands consciously making music from a 'female point of view', have not changed that view. There have been great steps forward on this issue generally, let us not go backwards.

It may very well be that these sessions are male dominated but if the suggestion was made to have an exclusive male Hear Me session I suspect that there may be more than a few accusations of sexism?

Can we just let the music bring us together?


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 08:09 PM

Harpgirl, I made what I consider to be a reasonable suggestion. At no point have I or anybody else tried to dictate terms.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: harpgirl
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 08:10 PM

But why do you have to get involved at all, Jon?


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 08:14 PM

Harpgirl I would like to respect Jon's request which he mentioned in an earlier posting about the current hearme page on his site.
If what we are doing is kind of exclusive then why not meet in another available room rather than in the usual song circle room. That way this doesn't exclude anyone from having a song circle at the same time as a women's song circle event was happening.
Makes sense to me.

Bonnie


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Mbo
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 08:16 PM

Yes, non-involvement is so enriching! I'll be playing to my walls tonight, who doen't give a rat's ass about what I play or how much I play. I been doing it for years, so why change?


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 08:18 PM

I got involved to make people aware that there were other rooms available and in some vain and apparently misguided attempt to stop and arguements over the usage of the rooms for an event that has rules of participation set in such a way that it says "hang on, you can't play now" before they stated.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: JenEllen
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 08:19 PM

Harpgirl:
I'm a bit confused. This isn't meant to be exclusionary is it?
When the HearMe's first started, they had topics, and general ideas for songs to start with, and the sessions evolved from there. You know, CowboySongs, PlantSongs, etc...when everyone was tapped out, it was anyone's shot.
If the Woman's HearMe is approached as another topic to conquer, count me in. It'd be great to hear the range of styles and voices the 'Cat contains, but an exclusionary HearMe would need to be conducted in another room. If you don't want someone there, the nicest thing to do is not tell them you're having a party in the first place.
What say we set a date/time for a gal-bash? Guys invited to listen first, then when/if the well runs dry, release the hounds? Try it first just as a topic of song, and see where it goes from there? How's about it?
~Elle


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Áine
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 08:26 PM

I'm with JenEllen.

1. Let's start by setting a date/time for the Lady Mudcats session.

2. All interested persons should let harpgirl know they'll be available.

3. The name of the special HearMe room will be assigned by harpgirl and sent to the participants by Personal Message and/or email.

4. We all get together and have a damn good time -- regardless of our "bits and pieces".

-- Áine

(P.S. Dear Lodger - here's a kiss and smole for you, darlin')


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Sailor Dan
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 08:32 PM

Harpgirl, In my humble opinion you and the mudcat gals have the right to have your own night on the town.

It seems to me by the postings that Shambles appears to be a controlling,insecure narrow minded sexist male. I personally would like to hear the women of mudcat, and have them work on their music and get together. And if you exclude me from the room, so be it, its your right.

Being a pretty open minded male who enjoys being around independent females I can personally handle your deviation of the hear me room. Although I do enjoy all of the individuals that are there male and female.

Now I know that some people reading this will be pissed off, but I have my beliefs and am Man enough to handle it. I hope the rest of the male mudcat population can.

Sailor Dan


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 08:36 PM

Bron, I am glad I am not the only one who read it that way. After Harpgirl's complaining in the threads, recently about Mbo supposedly "hogging" the mic, I was a little put off when I read this one. Also, it could have been intended for me and a couple of others who are not shy about speaking up and trying to keep things rolling. As has been said before....if no one volunteers to sing, someone else is welcome to jump right in...all you have to do is speak up.

The only reason we have all had HearMe to enjoy and share in so much, is through the kindness and great amounts of patience of Jon *the Saint of Wales*:-). I totally agree with him that if we are going to exclude by gender, it be done in a separate room, much as Jenellen mentioned.

Harpgirl, I think you owe Jon an apology. I have not found the men in HearMe to been anything but polite, supportive, and thoroughly enjoyable. I very much enjoy hearing everyone who has come into HearMe and look forward to many mroe joining in. If there is one Mudcatter in particular who has pissed you off so much recently, why don't you take it up with them privately?

Girls' Night Out could be a fun thing, but not if it is done in a rancourous fashion...

kat


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 08:41 PM

I suppose an occasional separate sing-in based on age might make some kind of sense sometimes - definitely so far as children are concerned. Maybe some other age groups.

I don't know if that helps work out something about why some kinds of separate groups seem fine, and some don't. I think it's to do with helping people who get drowned out otherwise to find a voice. Not that there's anything subdued or quiet about most of the women I know. But I can imagine that the ones that are subdued and quiet might get more support and help in a woman's group than in a mixed group. And that probably wouldn't be true of most men only groups.

And I have come across some very confident and powerful women singers who have said that until they went to a women's only workshop they had never felt able to sing in public.

Not that all this is too relevant to a Hear Me. I'd imagine. But this thread seems to be turning towards wider issues, as they do.


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Amergin
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 08:50 PM

I just kinda wonder how everyone would take it if some one suddenly posted an invite for a Men's Only Hearme session. I think that person would be vilified.

Amergin


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 09:01 PM

Amerigin, if a men's only hearme or maybe some attemt at an instrument workshop was sugessted, I would have taken exactly the same line as I have done now. My point is that we do have the resources to host extra events for special purposes while keeping the main room open for all.

As I said before, I am not dictating terms and it is up to everybody to work out how to make the best of this facility if they wish to use it but I can not help but feel that the courteous thing would be to use a freely available and easily set up room for such purposes.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Helen
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 09:08 PM

Hi all,

As an appetiser, see this wonderful thread called Women's Song Circle, started by the even more wonderful Shula. I'm not sure if it went into a Part 2 thread because it got exceedingly long. We were enjoying ourselves too much. And so were the men, sitting on the porch listening.

What a grand bash that one was, a truly marathon event!

It did a lot to contribute to the Mudcat community, men, women, young, old, you name it. It was a virtual folk mini-festival for me, and it was really not long after I joined Mudcat so it helped to cement my sense of self as part of the Mudcat community.

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=2801#12285

Helen


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: IvanB
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 09:10 PM

Frankly, there've been a few evenings when it seemed it WAS a men-only Hearme, but certainly not by design. Actually, it seems to me the original post didn't exclude men from attending - just from performing. Jon suggested a different room and I think following that suggestion might help to allay any possible criticism of exclusivity. One further suggestion I'd make is that, rather than notifying potential participants by email or PM, that a thread be created with the link to Hearme, the name of the room to enter and groundrules for the event. I would hope that men would be allowed to participate in the text chat portion of the session however.


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Áine
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 09:21 PM

Thank you, IvanB, for the addendum to the proposed event! I would love to have the Gentlemen Mudcats there to offer their encouragement (and, hopefully, praise) to the festivities. Seeing's how we have a large contingent of this quality of male persona in the Mudcat, I don't see how their presence (albeit as polite observers) could do anything but add to the fun.

OK -- here's my offer for the date/time on the table -- Sunday next (July 9th), at 5:00 p.m. Mudcat Time (otherwise known as Eastern Standard Time U.S.). How's that sound to everyone?

Suggested Groundrules:

1. Everyone is welcome, regardless of their "bits and pieces".

2. The Gentlemen Mudcats would let the Lady Mudcats take the lead in performing; only performing themselves if invited to do so, or when the session is proclaimed "open to all" by the Session Leader.

3. Suggestions for No. 3???

-- Áine

-- Áine


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: MAG (inactive)
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 09:27 PM

McGrath's comment that a women-only event can be a necessary, empowering event is a good one. That was the point back in the late 60's, early 70's when we had a plethora of such events. It was a necessary act for us to get it together, and brothers who were on our side understood.

Jon's suggestion of a separate room is excellent if empowering one another is the point. A feature women-only would be good if the point is to feature what we women do.

I'm personally neutral, since my technology doesn't permit me to participate.


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Helen
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 09:37 PM

Áine

Good sugggestions.

My 2-cents worth:

I don't know how the timing will affect others but 5pm Mudcat time probably translates as around 7am here. Is there any chance of making it a couple of hours later?

Also, I really think we should take Jon's excellent suggestion and set up another room in the HearMe. It probably doesn't have to be labelled "Women's HearMe".

In line with most folk festivals I've been to it would probably work to label it Music Workshop HearMe and then other specific interest sessions - singing, music, sea chanteys, specific instruments, etc could "book" the "room" for use at specified times. For example, a harp, autoharp, dulcimer workshop would be fantastic for me.

Helen


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: harpgirl
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 09:38 PM

...fageddabout it!
Katie, like Shambles, you are taking a simple suggestion into a realm I think is inappropriate. Moreoever, you are attributing motives to me which are just plain incorrect. I resent it and it infuriates me as much of your continual domination of the forum has irritated me since you arrived. It also appears as though you are aligning yourself against me as you often do as a means of wielding power.
I haven't said anything which requires an apology to Jon and I am not interested in being told by you what I should do. Who do you think you are, my mother??? And your constant fawning is nauseating!!!!Unlike you, I am not interested in power, merely in sharing with other women without the men for a change.
As for going to a different room; that is rubbish and a simple attempt to control, on the part of those who have suggested it. The occam's razor is to use the song circle room sometime when it isn't being used, which is most of the time except for Sunday nights.
I have lost interest in this idea and am abandoning it! harpgirl


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Helen
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 09:44 PM

harpgirl, please read the thread I posted called Women's Song Circle. Not only will you see that your idea is a good one, I can guarantee that withing 10 minutes you'll be feeling a whole lot better.

If I could get over there and give you a huge (Mama) bear-hug I would, but I can't, not within the next 24 hours anyway - so just shut your eyes and feel it in cyber-space.

Luv-ya Helen


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: harpgirl
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 09:47 PM

...thanks Helen. I will reread the thread. I thought it was very cool when I first discovered it. But as far as I am concerned the power brokers can take my idea and do what they want with it! Thanks to the men and women who support this idea, by the way, including you Helen. I accept that hug!


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Mbo
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 09:53 PM

Not completely so, harp. HearMe is pretty much in use every night of the week except Saturday. I say go for it, maybe you'll light the fire under some ladies' britches to come and sing on HearMe. It seems to me like a lot of people are missing out on it because they think it's too much trouble, or they can't be bothered. Get 'em moving and maybe something will happen.

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 09:58 PM

Ah. An agenda is a wondrous thing.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: IvanB
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 10:43 PM

I'm aware that, at some point, there was some unpleasantness on the Mudcat Forum, and that many who were here at the time feel they have a right to be angry. I've also noticed a trend here lately to rebuke individuals in public thread posts. I realize it's easier when posting to a thread to include a message for a given individual along the lines of 'you should....' But I also know that I always felt bad when I was publicly rebuked and I also resented the person rebuking me. Folks, we've got a wonderful community here, with many resources, one of which is Personal Messages. May I suggest that, if we feel the need to rebuke, express anger, whatever to another individual member, we make use of the PM? Seems to me it would certainly make the overall tone of Mudcat a bit more pleasant.


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 10:56 PM

Hapgirl, the fact of the matter is that for the past 2/3 months, there has rarely been a night where people have not gathered together in that room. A simple search for Hearme will prove this and give you some indication as to how often it is used and believe me, not all the hearme events ae documented there.

While I would agree that you had made no comment that warranted an apology to me, I must point out to you that I do resent your last comments and would suggest that you are in fact the one who is trying to be the contol freak. I had merely SUGGESTED what I considered to be a more appropriate location for this particular event whereas, you seem to be determined to dictate locations and completely diseregard that fact that other women who wish to participate think this suggestion reasonable.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Áine
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 11:02 PM

Just as an experiment, I've created a temporary room on HearMe entitled 'ladycats'. I'm just trying to see if Jon's idea works.

If you're interested in helping me run this experiment, please click on this link to go to Jon's HearMe page. Then, click on "Make A Room" and enter the name ladycats. Then click on the "Enter" link. If I did everything correctly, that should bring you into my temporary room.

I'll be there for about 10 minutes. Thanks!

-- Áine


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 11:12 PM

Harpgirl, whatever your intention was with that post, Kat was extremely reasonable and you appear to be furious out of all proportion to anything that's been said.

As far as the "women only" session, I don't want to be in a place where anyone is told "don't sing."


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Áine
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 11:33 PM

Well, the experimental room kinda worked. We got three folks in there, although I couldn't talk or hear some of the time -- but, I think that was just Netscape being finicky. Usually, I have no problem.

So, the temporary room works fine.

As far as the date/time goes, how's about this. Sunday, July 9th, 7:00 p.m. (Mudcat time). I'll post a separate 'invitation' thread (open to Every Mudcatter), but the emphasis will be on the ladies to sing/play. If anyone has other suggestions for time/date, please let us all know.

Personally, I'm excited about getting to know everyone better and hearing what the female contingent of the 'Cat has up their sleeves.

Looking forward to next Sunday, Áine


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 11:44 PM

Aine, all my page provides is a means to connecting to the hearme servers and there should be no difference in performance between the rooms.

The song circle room is an unnamed room which means it is private to those who access that web page rather than a name which has a domain wide scope but that is the only difference.

As far as I understand it, all hearme rooms are really temporary as they are created on demand by the system thier end and disposed of when the last user exits.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 11:54 PM

and, if I understand it correctly, anyone can attach a HearMe room to ANY page they control...and there are LOTS of free Web pages like Jon has....no one needs to depend on what Jon has done!...get a room, attach the software, issue invitations!


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 12:06 AM

Quite right Bill, it can be hosted by anybody who has web space and the html that needs to be added is very simple.

I could provide the html but it is probably better to go through Hearme.Com to ensure the latest of everything. All you do is fill in some details and they will email you back with the neccesary code and a link to the reference that explains its operation and the customisation options available.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Bugsy
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 12:17 AM

Aine, I followed your directions to the Women's Hearme, but when I got there I was the only one present.

So I sang a song, just for the devilment of it.

Cheers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 12:25 AM

From Jon Freeman: I've changed my mind a little. For anybody that may want it, here is the basic code. This will embed Hearme into a web page.

Quite frankly, I a never wanted the thing in the first place, anymore than I wanted the ICQ Active list that I also set up to solve problems and handed over to Max at the first opportunity and the last time Max expressed an interest in Hearme, I wanted to hand over.

So fuck it, I don't need it, let someone else "control" it. I am through and my page is now closed.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Amergin
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 12:28 AM

Well, I hope you're all happy.


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: BK
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 12:59 AM

Putting on my professional hat for a moment, this has been an unpleasant little trip into psychopathology. If this thread were a human patient, a discrete discussion w/my psyche consultant would ensue, then possibly a formal psyche consult for the patient to get some help.

BK, who gets a bit worried abt the tone & emotional content of some of these responses. 'n just when I wanted to find out how to get in on what appears to be cyber jam-sessions... This is sad.


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: alison
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 01:08 AM

that would explain why I couldn't get in...

sorry you feel that way Jon.... hearme has been a great way of meeting and hearing people.. it is a shame that you are giving it up......

I don't think there was anything wrong with Harpy's initial suggestion- for a girl's song circle.. any more than there is for a "shanty night", "cowboy songs" etc

I did think the one person concerts ones were a bit weird.. sort of didn't know whether you were welcome to make comments or not......

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 02:21 AM

Well, good old Jon gave in to our cajoling, and he'll continue to host HearMe for us. Please remember that Jon hosts it at his own Web site, which means that he's got a right to do what he wants to maintain order and fairness. Sometimes, that means he makes decisions others may disagree with, but I know he bends over backwards to be fair. He's been a wonderful host, from both a technical and personal standpoint. Thanks, Jon.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Amergin
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 03:00 AM

Good glad to hear it. Thanks, Jon. I'll try to make it more often and hopefully not get kicked out.


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 08:23 AM

Just to make clarify what I said up there, because I sounded like I was stomping on the floor and thumping tables: I don't have any hard and fast "rules" for myself regarding private sings, and I'm not about to get all snooty about other people enjoying them. My decision to take part depends on whether I feel (based on facts, other peoples comments, and a whole load of personal interpretation) some people are going to feel left out. The decision to go or not to go is based solely on what my own concience tells me.

Jon, your suggestion about the private room was quite reasonable, and I don't see why it was such a big deal. I'm glad you kept your page up - the HearMe sings are something that I and lots of others enjoy a great deal. I appreciate the work you've done. (Brothers and sisters, do I ever - I've improved my singing tremendously because of all I've done in HearMe, and I'm still amazed at being able to listen to songs/tunes from people from all over the globe!) Don't let the grumpies getcha!


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Noreen
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 09:00 AM

When I have taken part in HearMe there has been nothing but a friendly, supportive welcome from the other participants, regardless of gender. If anyone wants to set up a separate room as well as the song circle room, fine, but I'm happy with the mixed session!
I find it very sad that Jon, and others, have been upset by comments made in this thread, when all that Jon's been trying to do is to help us to share some music together.

Noreen


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: kendall
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 09:03 AM

I must be losing my eyesight in my dotage, but, I saw nothing wrong with Harpgirls suggestion. I dont feel threatened..should I?


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Noreen
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 09:22 AM

I don't think there's anything wrong with the suggestion either, but there seems to be a lot of 'baggage' accompanying the reasons behind it, which have caused the problem.

Noreen


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: SDShad
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 09:33 AM

I agree entirely, Kendall. I think it's a grand idea. I know from experience that most of the real-world song circles or jam sessions I've happened upon have been participated in by far more men than women, often all men. If anything, the HearMe sessions are much more balanced than what I've seen in 3DWorld.

So, I do see as completely valid the impulse to establish a women's song circle, either in meatspace or cyberspace, since so many song circles seem to be men's song circles by default. And as much as I enjoyed joining in singing on HearMe the one time I've had the chance to so far, I also relish the idea of popping in for a HearMe session full of women's voices.

Marvelous idea, harpgirl. I disagree with the way you reacted to Jon, but I'm behind you 100% so far as the basic idea goes. A "well, that feels a little ghettoizing, can we talk about alternate solutions" sort of reaction would have been much more productive than accusing Jon of acting as an agent of the patriarchy. As Joe quite rightly points out, it's Jon's own web page that's setting up all the pointers into HearMe space, so he has some say in how it's put to use. And it kinda seems no-win: if Jon's main HearMe room is scheduled for special, semi-exclusive groups of any kind, some people are going to feel excluded; and if the women's song circle idea is shunted off to a separate room, I can also see why those who want to participate might also feel excluded and ghettoized.

The solution's gotta lie somewhere inbetween. I, being a bear of very small brain, don't have that solution, but I'm thinkin'. I lean towards your approach, harpgirl, keep everything as up front and open as you can, but I can't just ignore Jon's concerns either, and after all, HearMe isn't Jon's, but the website is, and that deserves a little respect. So let's try to work together to make this thing fly rather than getting angry at each other.

HearMe space is free and unexcluding, and actually has nothing to do with Jon, us, our circles, save for his pointers into it. We need those pointers, though, because they are easy to follow for those of us who aren't chat hounds and net geeks and used to this sort of thing all the time. Jon provides such a springboard out of his own generosity and enlightened self-interested, and that needs to be commended.

But I very much hope that you don't let the unhappy tone of some of this thread discourage you from pursuing the idea, because I'm one Y-chromosome type whose ears would be positively tickled by the result. There are several women hereabouts, including you, harpgirl, whom it hasn't yet been my privilege to hear play and/or sing. I can't think of a cooler way to hear 'em than your idea.

Chris


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: SDShad
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 09:36 AM

Oh, and since I meant to say this in that post but didn't find my way back to it:

Thanks, Jon, for creating and maintaining the HearMe page for us all to use, and for putting up with the hassles that inevitably arise around any public resource; it's one of the shining jewels in the Mudcat crown, and an immeasurable boon to us all. I'm glad you've decided to keep it going.

Chris


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: bbelle
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 10:14 AM

There y'll go again, assuming something of which you have no idea. You assume that harpgirl has "baggage" issues and that's the reason she wants to have a women's hearme, instead of assuming her intention was simply to get a group of like-minded women together to exchange ideas. Gosh, from reading the above, I could assume that it is Amerigin and Shambles who are toting around baggage. But it wouldn't be right for me to say that because I don't know them at all and my statement would be pure assumption ... moonchild


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 11:09 AM

We all have baggage, MC. It pushes our buttons and makes our knees jerk. It makes us who we are and can contol us unless we decide to not let it. Sometimes it makes us write pompous philosophical statements, and... oops.

I'm ignoring any further arguments about who is the biggest weenie. Someone may really be enjoying this silliness, or have an interest in continuing it, but it ain't me. At least not unless there's any really good swearing in it, or creative name-calling. Silly's one thing, really silly is something completely different.

(No, after an initial baggage-related reaction, I am not taking this seriously.)


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 11:20 AM

All getting a bit heavy here. How about we have a mime HearMe?


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 11:40 AM

Thanks for kind comments and I'm sorry I lost my temper. This whole business runs far deeper fo me than this thread and it goes back to trying to help organise and indeed found folk clubs and sessions in my area. Evenually after nearly 20 years, I got so fed up with the rows and the politics that I gave up and swore that I would never get involved on that sort of thing before.

One thing I must clarify there in view of Joe Offers comments is that in this instance (apart from my action in temper) at no point did I make any descision as to where this ladies event should take place. I merey tried to suggest that a different location is more appropriate for ANY event that excludes certain people to avoid any possible dissruption to the "normal open heame".

As I have stated before, as far as possible, I do not set rules for the usage of my page (the only exceptions would be cases of severe abuse) and it is basicily up to Mudcatters to work out how to get the best of it if they wish to.

I would however like to make this request:

That the main room is kept available at all times as an open venue for everybody to be able to paticipate in at any time.

If anybody wishes to use my page to host an event that has participation rules that exclude certain people (this could even include a banjo players only session/ workshop..) That a private room is created for the purpose. In this case, it is entirely up to the organiser of the event to publish the location in whatever way they wish (by email or as a thread in hearme) and has full control over that room.

This is in no way pushing anything underground as the organiser can make eveybody here aware of what is going on if they wish to. It merely keeps the main room available and open to all at any time which was the original intention, while allowing other events to be hosted.

I'm sorry if this does seem unreasonable to some but I remain convinced that this is the fairest solution for all.

Finally, as I have offered before, I am willing to add extra special purpose rooms on my site if anybody requires. Also, if anybody requires, I am quite willing to help anybody set up there own site and if it of any use to anybody, feel free to copy my HTML source.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 12:53 PM

So where does one find the infor necessary to set up a HEARME of thier website?

I'd love to host one with all kinds of theme nights and such... different music styles ect ect...

I can't believe this great suggestion lead to THIS thread...


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 01:11 PM

Clinton, I am suggesting that the two events can run side by side not knocking the suggestion which I in fact think is a good idea. If you wish to play host for this or any other Hearme event, go to http://www.hearme.com/products/voicecreator/. I know you are competent with html so you should find it easy to set up.

Jon

(still mystified as to why suggesing a means where 2 or more events can run happily side by side is viewed as sexist ,etc).


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 02:07 PM

thanks Jon, fer the url!

{~`


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Áine
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 02:09 PM

I've started working on a HearMe site on my webpage for the "Ladies Night Out" session. So now everyone can pick on ME and leave Jon out of the fight.

I just want to add my thanks here to Jon for all the great evenings that I've had on HearMe. I hope you'll consider your hands washed of this problem now, Jon.

-- Áine


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 02:27 PM

Thanks Aine, I do. The only thing I will say is that the only problem I had with the event was that it was slightly more exclusive i.e. rules who can sing and who can't, and that I felt it would be better located elsewhere and suggested a means of allowing this to happen while keeping the other room free for all.

Your actions and perhaps Clinton's have in fact done exactly what I proposed, ie offered a perhaps more suitable location for a specific type of event. I just hope that you don't get accused of being sexist or wanting control for adopting what was to me a very sensible approach.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: KT
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 02:30 PM

I've been a silent observer in this thread up 'til now. So far, I've been unable to participate in the HEARME sessions since I am a Mac user, but have followed with interest, the responses of others to their participation in it. Seems to me to be a great thing and I do look forward to the day it becomes available in MAC format. Having no history with it, and from an observer's point of view, it seems that the original suggestion to have a women's session was a good one, with no ill intent toward exclusivity, and eagerly received by many. I also think that Jon's suggestions were well intended, well stated, and exhibited a sense of fairness and vision, anticipating future as well as current needs for private and open sessions. I think Jon has been gracious and generous in his willingness to try to assist everyone. It's nice to witness gracious and generous spirits at the MUDCAT. Isn't that what brought us all here in the first place?


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 05:34 PM

Lemme clear up.. I just wanna add Hearme to my site to use as I care to... it really has nothing to do with the above thread....

But I'd be willing to host such theme nights once I get it set up if folks want... But I'm not really planning on moderating them....

Play nice, and stay cool folks!

{~`


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Terry K
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 05:49 PM

I think harpgirl perhaps did not understand how the Song Circle room works, i.e. that Jon has provided it through his selfless interest in promoting Mudcat things in general.

She certainly sems not to have understood the extremely sensible and extremely polite suggestion that it could be held in another room, generated directly from Jon's facility.

Misunderstandings are OK - we all commit them all the time - but the way harpgirl threw her toys out of the pram was uncalled for and Jon's kneejerk was a lot more controlled than mine would have been!

Incidentally, anyone seen harpgirl since 09.38 yesterday?

Terry


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 06:03 PM

Still, I really would like to hear a women's HearMe - so I could just sit back and listen, for a change. For a while last night, Alison and I were the only ones with microphones, so it turned into a Joe-and-Alison concert. I'm sure there are lots of singers in the early hours, but I can't get myself motivated to join HearMe when the sun is still shining here in California.
And I really wish somebody would make a field trip and install a microphone on Night Owl's computer. Night Owl types notes to try to get me to laugh while I'm singing, and I think it's high time for me to get my revenge...(chuckle)
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 06:04 PM

You know, I have been around here a long time and I have seen some crazy shite, but this takes the cake. How the hell do two otherwise reasonable people get off on such crazy tracks. Talk about hooking familiar feelings..........LIGHTEN UP. Harpgirl came up with a very good idea. Super. I think that is marvelous. I am completely agreeable to following the rules she lays out, not that she needs that from me. Jon stated a reasonable way to do it ON HIS PAGE THAT HE MAINTAINS FOR US. He wasn't trying to control shit, just expressing that a separate room be set up under whatever guidelines Harpgirl wants. He simply was stating that IN HIS ROOM, he would prefer no exclusion, but had no objections to others setting up rooms. Harpgirl, if that is not acceptable, set up a page of your own and assume the pain in the arse of maintaining it. But, Jon never attempted once to assert control.

To those of you who attacked Harpgirl on the merits of her idea, I would suggest you have issues that you need to deal with. If you were to go and read the thread in the manner of a disinterested observer, you would see an awful lot of agendizing and stretching going on. Cut it out. It isn't the way of our town.

Go for it Harpy.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Amergin
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 06:25 PM

Big Mick, if that last bit was aimed at me, I did not attack her on the merits of her idea. My first comment was a joke. So was my second comment. Then I read some of her attacks at Jon and started posting my spiel. Personally, I liked the idea and would like to go toone just to listen (if by chance I could make it without being disconnected). I just didn't much care for the reasoning behind it.

Amergin


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 06:27 PM

It is an issue of principle not one of gender.

One of the main attractions of The Mudcat is that it NOT exclusive. The first and especially the third posts to this thread make it quite clear what was being suggested. It was to EXCLUDE some people from participation. Whether there is any ""ill will" about such a suggestion seems to depend on if your sympathies lie with those being excluded or those being included.?

I would have felt just as strongly about the suggestion to exclude females from a session. But I suspect my voice would have be lost in the multitude of objections and accusations?

Surely it does not hurt to provoke further thinking on ideas that appear on the surface to be 'obvious solutions'? Once you start precedents it can be hard to deal with future suggestions. If you accept the suggestion to exclude men from a session, how could you then justify an objection to a call for a session that excluded certain racial groupings?

Is it not better just to accept the general principle of being inclusive and live with the downside of that?


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 06:30 PM

Amergin, it wasn't aimed at you specifically. There is plenty of blame to go around. I just read through the thread and saw so much horsepucky and personal crap that I felt compelled to say so. I reiterate. (1) It is a great idea and has much merit. I can't wait to sit and listen to the talented women of this forum do their thing. (2) Jon deserves an apology. He did nothing wrong and was quite reasonable. (3) What I saw in this thread is not the way of the Mudcat.

Big Mick


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: harpgirl
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 06:38 PM

...Jon, get me a drink! I'll have vinegar and water!!!


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 07:03 PM

Harpgirl, I a have no idea what "I'll have vinegar and water means" but I'd rather buy you a pint of Guiness (or whatever you may drink) and be friends than have you drink that if you are willing.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: harpgirl
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 07:36 PM

sorry Jon...the women may get this joke! But I'll take the Guiness!


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 09:19 PM

Hurrah!


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 09:36 PM

Well, I gotta' say this is some amazin' shit here.............

Glad I missed this one.......When you sit and read it from a "distance" as I've just done, you realize how 'community-like' this damn place really is. We can all describe similar 3-D events that went the same way and eventually worked out. You can't tell exactly where the first explosion occured, but something went boom somewhere, but it seems to be working out in the end (let's not make that too literal).

Gawd, I love this place and its been a long 10 days..............(yeah, I know...not long enough for some of you)

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Áine
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 10:02 PM

To paraphrase dear Ebbie -- Huzzah! Glad to see you 'Catters "burying the bones", as it were.

I'd just like to tell you all about how this whole brouhaha has turned into something very positive. I've just arrived home from a meeting of my local Conradh na Gaeilge (Gaelic League), and I told them about the HearMe software and how it was being used by us Mudcatters.

I placed a suggestion before the membership that the Conradh could use HearMe for Irish language lessons, private officer meetings, and general Irish language or cultural get-togethers for our organization.

Well, I have to tell you that this idea just catapulted off into the stratosphere! We now have plans on the table to connect Irish language teaching organizations from Dallas, Austin, and Houston here in Texas, New York City, Chicago, and Minnesota in the U.S. and Counties Limerick, Cork, and Donegal in Ireland in world-wide Irish lessons on HearMe!

Some of you may realize how wonderful this is, and for others let me just tell you this could be a substantial development in the spreading of the Irish language. And the apple never would have fallen on my head if it hadn't been for this thread.

Thank you so much, Jon and harpgirl, for stirring whatever wee "grey cells" I have in my brain. Even though much of this thread was acrimonious, I see now how much of a "family" we really are. And also, how one pebble tossed into the pond can create uncountable ripples.

I don't know how things will work for the Conradh and our HearMe lessons; but, I do know that the ball started rolling here on the Mudcat, whether it was with a whimper or a bang, and I cannot thank you all enough for that.

I think I have to go have a good cry now. Here's a virtual toast with my virtual Guinness to all of you, especially Jon and harpgirl. Long may the Mudcat live and inspire others to go forth and CREATE!

-- Áine


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: SDShad
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 10:56 PM

harpgirl, that's disgusting! :-) I'll definitely buy you a Guinness should we meet!

Shad


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: JedMarum
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 12:08 AM

Vinegar, even watered down will spoil the lovely taste of that Guiness.


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Spider Tom
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 01:07 AM

What a lively thread this is as it weaves a tangled web.
I listen well to whoever wants to sing and will gladly hold my tongue if anyone feels they need the time or space
I am a little pushy I know.
I have written songs with women in.
Should they be included or excluded, am I invadeing some territory that I am forbidden from?
I try to touch the female side of my brain at times and have likewise slaped my own face for doing so.
How easy a little suggestion will get out of hand.
We had a autoharp hearme, and guess what?
I SNUCK ON!
I am sure that such a friendly bunch as you all are would allow the same if a poor desperate fellow felt the need to dive in amongst the ladys, Indeed I would and might have trouble keeping my tongue still, but then dosen't art imitate life?
Love you all, stop slapping each other and sing.
I love this hearme thing.
Spider Sally


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Áine
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 01:10 AM

Dive in any time, my dearest Spider Tom!

-- Áine


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 03:07 AM

Vinegar and water!

TOO FUNNY!

And then what? Ride horseback?? Play tennis?? Swim?? Leap over garden fences in your best white pants?

Ya slay me, harpgirl!

LOL!!!

{~`


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 07:42 AM

HearMes for separate languages? Now that's a great idea. Seriously, since otherwise someone's going to think I'm being sarcastic, and there's been too much misunderstanding and bottle-throwing around on this thread...

But, for example, I'm thinking of a small refugee family living in a town where virtually no-one can speak their language. (And in the turmoil of the modern world, situations like that are not that uncommon.) So, as the technology gets more developed and more accessible and easier to use, things like language HearMe's could really change the world for people like this.

(I read somewhere that in some cultures there are different languages for men and women. Probably not a good idea... Though there are times when we seem to hover perilously on the edge of it...)


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: kendall
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 08:04 AM

Only if you drink it Jed


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 08:23 AM

McGrath, This site seems to offer channels for a number of different languages but I have no idea what they are like although, the odds are that being internet wide rooms, they will suffer from abusive users.

BTW, any internet wide room can be accessed from my page using the make a room option as any room name preceded by # has this scope. As an example, creating a room called #Adults will get you to the same room as entering the predefinded Adults option on my page.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Helen
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 08:33 AM

Shambles, hiya, long time no type!!

I really, truly appreciate your concern for keeping things politically correct, because that's what Mudcat is about: trying not to step on people's toes - any people, all kinds of people.

But, the way I see it is that:

1) women often don't participate as much as men in sessions - it's harder for me, I know, to break into sessions when I see other people who appear to be much more confident and comfortable with themselves and their capabilities than I am - musically speaking. Women's sessions seem easier to participate in - to me.

2) we all of us do have different ways of looking at the world based on who we are and it's very nice, very easy on the mind, the heart and the soul to express ourselves to other like minded souls without feeling the need to *explain*. It's like laughing at the same jokes without having to deconstruct the punchline for someone else just so they will get the joke. (I have to admit - I haven't got the "vinegar & water" reference yet, harpgirl. Do I really want to?? BG).

I have always said to my hubby that he should have blokes nights - cards, drinking, talking, the usual stuff - and I make sure that I don't butt in on them at all. He needs his space, he needs to be able to just be himself, and one of the ways that blokes "be" themselves is to be with other blokes. He also has social *connections* (times when he connects without having to explain himself, i.e. be *conscious* of himself) when he is with other computer technician people. They talk about amps, volts, chips, cards, motherboards, circuits, what-all, for hours and they don't have to stop and explain it, they just *are*.

That's what I liked about Shula's Women's Song Circle. It didn't exclude men, because there were men all around us, but it allowed us to contribute, share, just "be" - without having to be conscious of ourselves, without having to explain ourselves, without having to feel different. We just "were" for the time of that wonderful, long, on-going session.

Luv-ya Helen


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: SDShad
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 10:16 AM

Helen--

Visualize the vinegar and water in a clear plastic bulb of some sort, with a pointed appendage through which the solution can be expressed. Probably would be handy for drinking fluids on the space shuttle, but....

Married, so I know of such things,

Shad


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 11:23 AM

Damn, I must get a mic for my computer, so I can join some of you for a sing song sometime!!

And try to be about when someone else wants to sing...

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 01:10 PM

Helen thank you for taking the trouble to address some of the points made. Being looked upon as a both a guardian of political correctness and being accused of being sexist must say something about the strange nature of this thread?

1. My wife's view is the same as yours but I think the perception of other people being more confident, in sessions and in life, is a myth, whatever their sex. You would probably see me and think that I was confident but you would be very wrong. Sessions are a minefield for everyone. I do see men in sessions being more considerate to women musicians they would to other men. I would be surprised if that was not the case on HearMe but maybe the fact that you can only see a name and hear a voice makes this more difficult?…………There are many problems in sessions. These 'cybersessions' are a new thing so there are bound to be initial problems. Maybe a thread to discuss some solutions to the problems would be a good idea and maybe better than starting a bad precedent?

2 I do see the need. It is not however the same for all of us. Single sex groupings are a 'horror' for some. What you are describing is an indulgence, like eating a fresh cream cake or ice cream. This kind of self-indulgence does little harm to anyone but yourself.

If your indulgence is to be surrounded by only the people you want, then invite those people. Who would you hurt? You would not place a public notice in the local paper so that everyone else would know that they were not required. You would not use the same venue where you were used to having open sessions and have to explain to those turning up expecting to play, that they could not.

The Mudcat has been through some storms since the 'Song Circle Thread'. It may explain the different reception to this suggestion and maybe there were other reasons too?

If my indulgence were to surround myself with racists and have a thread devoted to these people, exclude everyone else from posting and wanted to have an HearMe session to sing inflammatory songs and excluded anyone else from participating. How could you voice an objection to this, if these exclusive female only threads and sessions were generally accepted?

I know I am exaggerating and playing 'devil's advocate. All I ask is to think it through.


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 02:01 PM

Can't say I see the analogy as being that pertinent, Shambles.

(And to be pedantic, that's not what Devil's Advocate really means. The role of the person colloquially referred as a Devcil's Advocate is as part of the canonisation process in the Catholic church - the role being to search out any flaws and faults in the character or life of the person in question, and make sure these aren't hidden or ignored.)

As I see, if a set of people are collectively weak, they have every right to get together separately if it helps them to get stronger. If a set of people are collectively strong, getting together to preserve or increase their strengthis in no way equivalent.

Of course, strength and weakness of this sort are not fixed in stone, and they aren't homogenous throughot Society. And there are lots of reasons for people getting together which have no direct link with that issues of power.


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: BlueJay
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 02:11 PM

I've been lurking, as I've only been to one HearMe. I'm either always working or sleeping at the time. The one Hear me I listened to, with technical problems, was the "Autoharp" HearMe awhile back.
That's exclusionary, to me. Funny, I didn't hear any howls of protest, like "why are mandolinoleums excluded"? Or "what about us banjumanjis"? The feeling I got was that anyone was welcome. Had a mandolin player had a different take on a song,I'm sure that would have been most welcome.
The Mudcat Cafe by definition is exclusionary. Nothing wrong with that. Rocket scientists aren't going to find much here, unless they also like traditional music.

My take is this: Ladies, have the HearMe. I'll be listening, if possible. In fact I'm looking forward to it.

Jon Freeman- I nominate you for Secretary of Patience in the new Mudcat Party, in honor of your diplomacy throughout this thread. And your perseverance in getting your message to us. I agree- most topical HearMe's should be on a side page. But I think the Women's HearMe deserves an exception to policy. I think it's now grown to the point that it deserves the entire site for a night.
Thanks, BlueJay


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 02:30 PM

BlueJay, at the time of the autoharp session, I only had one room and it way a matter of that idea getting the vote. I changed my page to allow other rooms as a result of a thread in which Harpgirl suggested that Mbo had been hogging the mike and the discussion that followed. The main reason for the change was to make sure that people had somewhere else to go if they were not happy with the main room at any time.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I have made a request regarding the usage of my page but ultimately it is majority rule not my rule. If the majority feels that the women's Hearme should take place in the main room on my page, although my vote goes the other way, so be it.

As regards whether women get less of a chance than the men during the regular Hearme session. I have not observed any difference and it seems to be a personality thing rather than a sex thing. Oddly enough when the session needs a little pushing to get things moving, 2 out the 3 most likely to "crack the whip" are female (Alison and kat).

Oh and Blue Jay, I'm not sure about the patience award. I have a foul and short temper which although I normally manage to keep under control, lost completely in this thread.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: BK
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 10:56 PM

Ya did great, Jon - & yer still doin' great!!

Cheers, BK


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: alison
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 04:17 AM

Oh I see!!!!! so I'm Pushy now!!!!!!

hahahaha

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Bugsy
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 04:22 AM

Pushy's not the word! They don't call you "BIG AL" for nothing you know!

Cheers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: alison
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 04:38 AM

hahaha

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 05:59 AM

Would a HairMe for people who don't shave their chins be acceptable?

People who do shave their chins would be welcome to listen, but only non-shavers would get to sing...It'd have to be a honour thing, of course, since it'd only be sound at this stage of the technology. A bit exclusive maybe, but you couldn't call it sexist.


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Bugsy
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 07:28 AM

I think that's a great idea McGrath, and it's not even gender specific. At least not in a lot of folk clubs I've been to in my time!

Cheers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 09:07 AM

I think that some people could call it sexist? (smoles)

It's just your clever way (as a non-shaver of course) of sneaking in to the women's only Hearme sessions.

Kevin could you take your pedant's hat off for a while and help me phrase the question, so I could receive an answer? For even if the analogy is not spot on, I am pretty sure you can work out what I am trying to ask.

What I am trying to do is address the question that you posed quite early in the thread, about why some groupings were OK, others not and how you could deal with the latter?

You more recently touched on the relative strengths of groupings, in the power sense and also that some groupings that were not related to power issues at all. I think that is at the heart of the problem we are having here.

For I think that this suggestion was a strange mixture of a grouping for both power (from an assumed weak lobby) and what I referred to earlier as a request for 'an indulgence' (because it would be nice).

Along with all the baggage of the real or assumed criticism of the present system and their male participants, it also had the additional complication (for me) of also being for the purpose of making music defined only by what it was excluding.

Unfortunately the emphasis to later entrants to the thread appeared to be a question of 'WHAT'S WRONG' with the suggestion. Rather than 'WHAT'S RIGHT' with it.

Maybe it would have been better to decide first:…. If it was necessary (to rectify a power imbalance)…. If it would just be nice and then if it was a desirable precedent to make?

Would it be OK to have a blues HearMe session and exclude all non-blacks? Maybe Max should answer that one?


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 09:13 AM

This one is getting a little big. There is room to continue this, if you wish, on this one. Are you a lumper or a splitter?


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 02:02 PM

I think we should have a Shower HearME; drag our mics in and turn it up! The acoustics would be great and Spider Tom is really good at holding the soap!**BG**


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Helen
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 08:19 PM

Hi all,

I feel obliged to tell you that I am getting really frustrated here.

I'm standing in the hallway of a big folk festival (cyber) venue, and there's a whole bunch of vacant session rooms available, ready and waiting on HearMe. There is also a whole bunch of people hanging about waiting to get into one of these session rooms to share some music, fun, laughter and song, and what have we got? A picket line out the front of the rooms with another huge bunch of people arguing the toss about whether or not we should be allowed to have a session.

The session room for "Arguing the Toss" is down the hall, first on your left. Please excuse me while I head in here to the Women's Session room. Anyone ready for some music?

Helen


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: GUEST,Barfy
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 10:23 PM

Oremus: Shambles, qui nobis sub foro mirabili, passionis tuae memoriam reliquisti: tribue, quaesumus, ita nos corporis et sanguinis tui sacra mysteria venerari, ut redemptionis tuae fructum in nobis iugiter sentiamus. Qui vivis et regnas in saecula saeculorum.

Oh Shambles you are boredom personified. You just drone on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and one and on.

At least Harpgirl and others got that right.


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 10:30 PM

Well Helen, why not pop into the room where, normally somebody just announces "I am here - want to join me" and others just drop in - it happens most nights - 7 in now?

Jon


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Helen
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 10:05 PM

Thanks Jon,

It's a bit difficult with time zones - being over here in Oz - to just pop in, but I'm hoping that the Sunday night arrangement for this week is still on. I suppose it depends on whether Aine gets her HearMe room set up, which I am sure she will.

Helen


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Subject: RE: Women's HearMe?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 10:29 PM

Helen, there should be no problem there. I don't know how far Aine has got yet but I am keeping my page up and running until she is ready to take over.

Jon


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