Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter'

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter'
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 20 - 08:46 AM

I was told that the captain's daughter was either a smaller cat o ninetales whip or something similar that the captain would use when a sailor got to drunk to do their job and the name was kind of a way to screw with said drunken sailor, "how did captain's daughter treat you last night?"

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 20 - 02:38 PM

What about Shaved his belly with a rusty razor??

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter'
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 03:32 PM

Put him in bed with the Captain's Daughter:

up to 100 Lashings with a cat o' nine tails (sometimes referred to as the Captains daughter.
Then a bucket of sea water in thrown into the wound (mostly to work as antiseptic but also for pain)
Put to bed in a hammock which is nice and scratchy. You are then sown into it.

As you have an open wound and as you have salt in the wound and as you are against a scratchy material it will itch, and you will scratch opening up the wound even more making it itch more ect.

Kissing the Gunners Daughter:

Typically given to the young midshipman (officers in training).

Stretched out over a gun with arms tied so there lips are against the gun. Trousers pulled down and they receive 10 of the best with a birch or cane.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 07:40 PM

In another Mudcat thread a strong (I think) argument was developed that the singer Oscar Brand developed "the captain's daughter" and other hootenanny verses on his 1960 album.

Some years back I updated the Wikipedia page for this song by inserting several historical points about this song, especially distinguishing its form "as a shanty" and "as a popular song."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drunken_Sailor

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 09:49 AM

I think most agree it was to do with a serious flogging; all the other verses are punishments of varying severity, so it makes no sense otherwise, unless the daughter was particularly unappealing.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 04:19 AM

It's genuinely crazy to see topics and people writing on the internet from so longer ago. While I can almost guarantee I will never return to the comment I'm about to post (if it even works) and that fact that none of the original people to post will see this- it's still so fascinating to see.

Anyway, my belief of what it meant was already answered dozens of times, it's to be lashed until you're unconscious. Although you could have the direct meaning, I don't see it fitting the song as well.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 02:11 PM

BTW, nobody has produced even a claim from any shanty collector or sailor-author that "in bed with the captain's daughter" had any secret meaning at all.

It's fascinating to see people insist that what's said in plain words makes more sense as code for something else.

(Assuming that's what I mean.)

In A Study in Scarlet, Watson "keeps a bull pup." Since no dog is ever mentioned again, readers have asserted confidently that it means something else: for example, that Watson has a bad temper, or carries a gun, or something equally unexpected.

The obvious interpretation, that he owns a dog (which Conan Doyle later forgot about) is ignored.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 01:58 PM

Believe what you wish.

Anyway, the even more recent following verse, "Have you *seen* the captain's daughter?" suggests that the real daughter might be punishment enough.

If punishment is what it's all about.

Which it isn't.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: Paul Burke
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 01:36 PM

OK, so all expressions used in blues are sexual, and no sexual reference in a shanty is what it seems. That's clear, these sailors were a sheltered lot. Where the hell's Beddw? The nearest Google maps will give me is Beddwgan, a farmhouse near Pentraeth, the right sort of area for a song that mentions Nefyn, but about 3 miles inland and not really the sort of place where a sailor would want to go to get flogged. Maybe a Welsh speaker will tell us what such a placename could mean- W's grave perhaps.

You'll be telling us next that their desire for a pie dish was actually a wish to be keelhauled and shot on the quarterdeck.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 01:33 PM

Lighter:

You asked, "Why use an "obscure hidden meaning" instead of the literal reading of the words?"

First: The song is comic, about tongue in cheek punishments for the erring sailor.

Second:
In a real-life naval situation, the captain might not even have a daughter. If he did, she probably would not be aboard. If he did and she was, the drunken sailor might, on the surface, see putting him to bed with a female (ANY female) as a reward rather than a punishment for his drunkenness. Alternatively, the captain in that case would surely be enraged, and not only the drunken sailor but those who instigated putting him in her bed would be severely punished. All of which would be in conflict with the spirit of song, as in the first commend.

Third:
As a parallel to "kissing the gunner's daughter", which is traditionally known to have the "obscure, hidden meaning" of being flogged with the cat while bound to one of the big guns.

q.e.d. Which should have been obvious.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: Dead Horse
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 12:51 PM

Nothing whatever of a sexual nature in it.
It refers to a method of punishment involving a sound thrashing.
May have originally been a Bosuns Daughter,or even Gunners Daughter, but owing to passage of time and having passed through the hands of many folkies, has been promoted to command rank :-)
I am sure that I have heard Baggywrinkle singing Hob Y Deri Dando the line "I wish I was in Beddw with the captains daughter" which is in keeping with the Welsh genius for turning the meaning of a phrase for comical effect.
Where is Crane Driver when you need him, eh?

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: kendall
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 12:10 PM

And, as far as I know, the "Cat" was kept in the Bos'ns locker.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: kendall
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 12:08 PM

I still say it is simply a bawdy line in the chanty. Another example of free speech is the line:
The Captain's daughter Mabel though young was and fresh and able,To fornicate with the second Mate upon the chart room table.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 09:26 AM

Why should anyone assume that such a straightforward statement must have a completely different and obscure hidden meaning?

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 05:54 PM

THe cpatains daughter is another name for the cat o' nine tales.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: alanabit
Date: 01 Jul 05 - 01:48 PM

Here's the URL I promised Shanghaiceltic. I got it from another site. (I am an Old Boy of the Royal Hospital School, Holbrook, which has strong links to the RN).
http://www.corpun.com/kiss1.htm

I rather suspect that the expression actually was "Kissing the gunner's daughter" and that folk memory transformed it into the phrase, which is the title of this thread.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: Les from Hull
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 11:59 AM

The women who went to sea (as opposed to the 'wives' who visited when the ship was in port) were the wives of the 'standing officers' petty officers who were appointed to the ship permanently - the bosun, the gunner and the carpenter. Carrying other women was illegal (but not unknown).

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 09:41 AM

I was wrong in my earlier post about midshipmen and the cat, they could not be flogged, only beaten. There was a subtle difference in the RN. Flogging implied the use of the cat on a rating who was triced up on a grating, whereas a middy (also known as a 'snotty') could be beaten with a cane whilst lying over a gun.

Another term associated more in the USN than the RN today is 'son of a gun'.

In the RN women were often carried on board but not listed on the ships muster. This was at the captains discretion. The responsibility for feeding them and any offspring was down to the particular listed man. Therefore in many cases the women were the spouses of petty officers, bosuns, mates, warrant officers or commissioned officers. However this was not always so and if the spouse was married to a lower deck rating then she shared his mess space often sleeping on the deck between guns. If a child was concieved then it would be a 'son of a gun' even if the child was female.

What did these women do when the ship was in action? Often they would help the ships surgeon acting as unpaid nurses and loblolly boys.

Sorry about the drift.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: alanabit
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 09:01 AM

I believe Shanghaiceltic is very close. "Kissing the gunner's daughter" referred to the practice of tying the lad to the cannon, so that he could receive his beating. It might have looked a bit as if the lad were trying to make love to the cannon, which gave rise to the grim humour (not at all uncommon in the navy).
I can try to find a URL to a site with more on this subject later on.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: GUEST,tony
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 08:44 AM

You would have been very hard pressed, indeed, to seek a romantic association with some of the captain's daughters I met in the Merchant Navy. I can only assume that line describes a severe form of punishment in itself and doesn't stand for anything else.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 04:22 PM

In the Israeli Naval Museum in Haifa, there is a wicked lash with what seems to be closer to 32 than 9 tails. That's a Captain's Daughter if anything is. The sobering thought is that the lash was on board an Egyptian vessel taken in the late 1950s.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 30 May 04 - 07:15 PM

Kissing the gunners daughter was a punishment often reserved for Midshipmen. Midshipmen were the lowest level of commissioned rank in the navy and as such they could not be flogged, but young midshipmen could be beaten with a cane across the backside.

Flogging was a far more severe punishment often used in the Navy but less so in the merchant navy. Generally it was reseved for members of the lower deck not officers.

Certainly in the RN at the time of Nelson sailors had to make their own cat, which after punishment was ditched. This was becuase the cat's tails would be bloodied and often carried lumps of flesh from the back of the person being punished.

In the RN the person to be flogged was triced up to a grating which was usually against the ships side on the upper deck.

The original line was 'Give him a taste of the captains daughter' a reference to the cat. Which makes more sense than 'Put him in bed with the captains daughter'.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: Peace
Date: 30 May 04 - 06:20 PM

Re "meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter". It means you are busted from seaman, first class.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: Joe_F
Date: 29 May 04 - 06:27 PM

I always imagined the "Cosher Bailey" line as implying "everything I see reminds me of how randy I am". Even a ship.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: GUEST,Chanteyranger
Date: 29 May 04 - 02:15 PM

"Gagroyle." We often wish. *BG*

Sorry, Garg, but I don't follow your point.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 28 May 04 - 11:53 PM

Ahhh...Chanty...I too....once carried up to four-dozen-different-personae......upon my MC-back....

Sincerely,

Gagroyle

If only to carry on conversation with someone, anyone....other than myself.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 28 May 04 - 06:28 PM

Kissing the gunner's daughter was to be given a beating or spanking when laid on the barrel of a gun.

Laid on the slippery barrel instinct makes the muscles tense and the blows hurt more and do more damage.

there are various references to Captain's daughters in bed which seem to indicate that it is just that - including catching the pox which as far as I know is not usually got from instruments of punishment - though if anyone knows otherwise ....

Anne

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: GUEST,Andrew
Date: 28 May 04 - 04:58 PM

I haven't seen a reference in the thread to another use of the line in Hob y Deri Dando


And I wish I was in bed with the captain's daughter.

Jane Jane come to the glen .etc

Makes you wonder why there was that wish, if everything above is correct !

Andrew

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: GUEST,Chanteyranger
Date: 28 May 04 - 04:35 PM

Don, "Have you seen", etc. is a modern verse that's been inserted into the song, mistakenly taking the original verse literally.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: TS
Date: 28 May 04 - 04:23 PM

If you check out the thread on the "Origins of 'Drunken Sailor'" there's a blurb twards the end about the "Captain's Daughter" and I believe it was said that it is infact a item of enforcing order.....Slainte!

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 28 May 04 - 03:09 PM

I had Polish students staying with me last year. Their English was superb. Really wonderful - they understood all kinds of picky syntactical questions. And it was their first time outside Poland.

They sometimes had a bit of a problem understanding what I said - but not as much as Americans do!

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:07 PM

Kissing the GUNNERS daughter... From what I've discovered, the man was bent over the cannon, sometimes lashed to it, and then that cannon was fired....

Lovely people these 'sailors' eh

;-)

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: GUEST,Don
Date: 28 May 04 - 11:15 AM

I think the verse - 'put him in bed with the captain's daughter' is literal since the follow-up verse is -'have you seen the captain's daughter.' Sounds to me like it's a continuous challenge to find ways to punish the drunken sailor.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 May 04 - 10:47 AM

When we do 'Drunken Sailor' the Captains Daughter verse always reminds me of the Golf Club gig we did a while ago. You could me in bed with THAT captains daughter ANYIME!!

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 04 - 10:24 AM

"captain's daughter" was an instrument similar to a cat-o-nine-tails -
so "put him to bed with the captain's daughter" was "flog him"

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: GUEST,Strudelbag
Date: 28 May 04 - 10:21 AM

I first heard the verse "put him into bed with the captain's daughter" in 1966. Back then, it obviously meant "the captain's daughter" and nothing else. It seemed to be the only well-known "bawdy" verse of the song at that time.

I wonder if Jack Tar would have dared to sing such a verse in the middle of voyage?

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: Karolina
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 01:41 PM

Thanks, friends.

Barry, please go to the newly established "Chantey festivals in Poland" thread to read my reply; I don't have enough courage to test Chanteyranger's patience any more :)

Yours,

Karolina

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 06:41 AM

"I don't think I quite called you a liar, Karolina" Well, that's what it looked like to me. "You aren't what you say you are" is what I took flattop to be saying. Which is fair enough in a way, because there are jokers around, and that's the kind of game jokers play. But it's not a friendly way to greet a stranger.

And welcome to the Mudcat, Karolina. We're pretty friendly most of the time. And the more globally diverse we get the better.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: flattop
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 10:07 PM

As a displaced Cape Bretoner, I thought that what I wrote was mild for sailor talk - perhaps not mild enough for mudtalk though. If Karolina comes up with translations to the phrases, our Polish nautical vocabulary will be enhanced. If you want me to re-think the way I behaved, I will need a couple of high tides to do the rethinking.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 09:31 PM

Karolina -

It's not your fault. I did ask. It would have been better, though, to have created a new thread with a title such as "Chantey festivals in Poland" but there are one or two points I need to make here. I have not until now felt compelled to single out one person for sharp criticism on the Mudcat, but I think flattop has gone beyond the friendly sort of teasing that goes on here, into the realm of insulting and degrading behavior. He has baited you with bigoted remarks and owes you an apology. If flattop lives in or visits the East Coast of the U.S. he will have a chance to hear one of the excellent chantey singers living there - Jacek Sulanowski. If he visits San Francisco he will have a chance to hear one of the finest chantey singers that the large pool of West Coast performers has to offer - the Mudcat's own "rradriano." If he gets the chance to sail on a square-rigged sail training ship, there's a good chance that ship was built at the Gdansk shipyard, such as Canada's training ship "Concordia," for just one example. But aside from those points, nobody should be baited like that here. I hope flattop re-thinks the way he's behaved towards you on this thread. Well, sorry, but that needed to be said.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 09:07 PM

Hi Karolina, years ago I met a finer group of sailors as you'd ever run across. They were the crew of the Zawisza Czarny (after the hero the Black Knight, no?). My first taste of their seamanship & musicianship came combined as Marek Siurawski started playing concertina as we were getting under sail all the while he continued to play & when he had given the orders to raise sail he sang a couple halyard shanties (still pumping on the squeeze box), shanties i've since only heard 2 other people sing & only one of the 2. he was followed by 2 fiddles & a guitar & those that didn't sing along danced. I was stuffed with food & drink by the crew & later joined Marek & a few others in a planed dockside concert, later came a spontaneous singing party. By the time the Zawisza Czarny was to head out towards England I got an invite to join as crew. When I was told how long that would take (30 days) I had to decline (SOB!!) & was egged on with the comment "we may be the slowest ship in the fleet but we certinly have the best parties". If you have word of Marek would you pass it along this way, I hear he pushing a memory enhancing something or other. Anyway, if this is even a small representation of your county's male & female sailors then you should be respected as one of west's finest maritime nations. I will looking foward to seeing the Dar Mlodziezy (sp?) in less than a few weeks time. Barry

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: flattop
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 08:28 PM

:)

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: GUEST,Karolina
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 07:45 PM

Thanks, Chanteyranger.

We do have many shanty (chantey?) festivals here, that's true. The date of one, actually, has drawn very near. The 8th Shanty Festival in Gi¿ycko is going to take place on 6 - 8 July. I'm not going there this year, but I've been to the festival last year, with a bunch of not-interested-in-shanties friends, and we had great fun. Gi¿ycko is a little town placed in the Mazury region, where there are many lakes connected with each other by a system of canals. Many young people choose to spend their holiday in the lakes. It may not be very challenging, but much cheaper than going to the sea. For those who like challenges we have the Baltic Sea, connected by channels with the North Sea and then the next step is the Atlantic Ocean... I've never been that far, I must admit that even my experience with Baltic is a little one. But the lakes are just okay for me.

Private sailboat owners are few and far between here and this "lakeyachting" is much more common. This is also reflected in our shanties. Apart from traditional sea shanties we often sing songs that were born among the Mazurian lakes, songs describing the joys of owning a small boat with no sailing instruments on it :)

We also have a huge festival that takes place, as far as I remember, in February, in Cracow. Perhaps this is the one you've heard of.

In Warsaw there are many pubs in which you can sing shanties and sea songs, both in Polish and in English, and listen to some good music, too.

I don't think a new thread would be necessary. You are welcome to ask questions about Polish shanties and songs in the "Message from Karolina" thread. (Why such title? Go and see!) But I'm sure it's me who will learn much from you rather than the other way round!!!

Czeœæ, radriano!!! How nice to meet a countryman here. Thanks for your words of welcome. I like singing shanties, too. My fav group is Roaring Twenties, of course I love Marek Siurawski and Jurek Porêbski, and I enjoy all the songs that can be put into the szanta szuwarowo-bagienna cathegory, too. I wonder whether you've heard of a group called Krzysiek Piechota i Kubryk? They're quite okay, as well.

Hope to hear from you again. Jeszcze raz dziêkujê.

Melani, re: yachting I remember that when I was taking my first course in yachting, our crew consisted of only two people + a very young instructor. We were aboard a very small, chartered boat ( An Omega, radriano :) and what bothered us was that after each day of sailing it got filled with quite a huge amount of water. But, as we were a bunch of very optimistic yachtsmen, we weren't worried too much, just a bit astonished how it is posssible for the water to get inside our boat. After two weeks of sailing, when we were giving the boat back to her owner, this is what he said: I forgot to tell you, but hope you've noticed. This boat has a nasty hole in her hull.

Chanteyranger, the thread got very messy, indeed. I feel you deserve an apology, it's all my fault!!!

Karolina

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: flattop
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 04:33 PM

What a good idea Melani! Karolina could teach us the Polish phrases so if we're ever stranded on a boat with only drunken Polish sailors... How would you say 'take the tiller', Karolina? How would you say, 'Move your stinkpot so I can get by with my blowboat?' Or, 'When you finish pumping out the head, we can all dive in for a swim?'

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: Melani
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 03:12 PM

Karolina--re; English as a second language: as an inexperienced sailor (I still am) about to take some people for a ride in a small sailboat, I was paired with a guy named "Jack", who had an accent I didn't recognize. I was told he had about as much sailing experience as I had, so I figured that would work. We got in the boat, and I said to him, "Why don't you take the tiller?" He replied, "What's a tiller?" I said,"It's that stick back there, I thought you'd sailed before." "Yes, but I only know the terminology in Polish." We ran into the fishing pier.

This thread has taken some really odd turns.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: Gary T
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 01:34 PM

I'm sorry, radriano, I checked and it is not possible. (VBG)

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: radriano
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 01:25 PM

Hey, Karolina, welcome to Mudcat.

There are always some assholes in every crowd. Don't pay attention them. Asshole may be a strong term to use but I am appalled at their behavior.

Why can't a Polish woman be a sailor? It is well known that shanties are very popular in Poland as is sailing. I am Polish myself. I suppose that some Mudcatters would be suprised that I am a shanty singer. My God, can that be possible?


radriano

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 08:23 AM

I stand corrected - not the "cat", then.

But I still like the correspondence in sound between daughter and starter for another connection in this thread...

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: kendall
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 08:19 AM

A "starter" was a short piece of rope which the Bos'n used to get men moving. In a dangerous situation such as reefing the sails in a sudden gale, it required that the hands move as quickly as possible. It was the Bos'ns job to move them.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 04:18 AM

If it helps, a term commonly used in the 18/19th century for an officer's cat-0'-nine-tails was the captains's "starter"... I think it would be easy to see how that could be misheard or alternatively remembered as capatins's daughter..

cheers all

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 03:03 AM

Thanks, everyone. It sounds like the jury's still out on the meaning, since it looks like there are different theories abut it. Sean - thanks for responding. I should have known I first heard of the symbolic conext of it on the Mudcat. I'm interested in exploring your explanation more. It sounds like the most plausible to me, based on what I know of chanteys in general. Karolina - I welcome and value your input here. I hear that Poland is a great place to hear chanteys, and that there is a HUGE chantey festival there. Maybe you could start a thread on the festival when the date draws nearer? I think there'd be alot of interest among mudcatters. Kendall - chanteys being a form of free expression for merchant seamen has only one taboo - they generally couldn't sing verses openingly critical of the master within earshot of him or the mates. It had to be couched in symbolism, or sung aloft in a "bunting" chantey (an example being Paddy Doyle's boots - "The dirty old man's on the poop!") Lots of complaints about general conditions aboard ships in those songs, though. Thanks again, all.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: GUEST,Karolina
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 02:14 AM

Flattop,

I think that what I'm really interested in is a bit of craic, how the Irish call it, and that more - less means a nice, enjoyable chat. I never claimed to be an expert in any field and the fact I'm Polish doesn't mean I know everything about my country. As far as literature goes, you are far more knowledgeable than me and I'm afraid I won't be able to keep up with you.

Don't feel discouraged, though. Wish you good night!

Ah, one more thing, perhaps - let's leave this thread, as it was established for quite another purpose!!!

Barry Finn, I've learned many interesting things from you, thanks!!!

Karolina

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: flattop
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 01:37 AM

It may be early in Poland but it's late in canada, so, I'm off to dreamland.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: flattop
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 01:25 AM

I don't think I quite called you a liar, Karolina, but your willingness to discuss Polish matters seems weaker than you interest in American matters. Perhaps you're more familiar with the writings of Leslie Feidler (sp) who was with the State University of New York, in Buffalo. He didn't write about boats but he did stir up a storm when he wrote an essay, 'Ah Come on Back onto the Raft Huck Honey,' where Feidler accused Hick Finn of being a homosexual. Feidler also wrote a strange book called Freaks, where he asked, 'Are you one of the normals?' Good question, eh?

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: GUEST,Karolina
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 01:13 AM

Again, I don't know why should I need a map of Poland? Hmm...

As for Gombrowicz, I've read Ferdydurke some time ago, while being on my secondary school, I don't think I've enjoyed it, really.

If you want to prove that you know Polish literature better than me, that's allright, you win, I'm ready to give up straightaway.

Pleased?

Karolina

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 01:08 AM

Flattop,

I'm not quite sure whether I got the sense of your message. Was it full of irony or maybe it's just too early in the morn for me to get things right, ugh? Don't forget I'm in a different time zone, it's 6:59 a.m. here now!

Look now, whenever I place this sign :) at the end of my message it means that I don't really mean it to be serious, got it?

I'm not used to lying to anyone, neither for joy nor for any other purpose. If you don't believe me, though, you're free to do so. I'm not going to prove my words to be true. We all make our own choices and bear responsibility for them. I've chosen to take nothing in anger.

Karolina

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: flattop
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 12:57 AM

Very colloquial english, Karolina. Is it taking you this long to find a map of Poland. Unfortunately, Mapblast and Mapquest are no help.

Why don't we discuss Gombrowicz's novels or Mickiewicz's poems while you're waiting for maps to load? Wasn't it Mickiewicz who wrote about civilization growing on the bones of previous generations?

How about Ferdydurke? What a strange novel? I like his description of critics as like being born in 1000 narrow minds. And where he says, 'Perhaps I overestimated the seriousness of being serious, perhaps I overestimated the maturity of mature persons.' Did you like the bit where the main character is made to conform to the rules of non-conformity? And when he got the compulsion to slap the servants just because his uncle's family expected him to? Did you know that Gombrowicz married a french Canadian woman? Canadians should be proud but most of us haven't heard of old Witold Gombrowicz.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: flattop
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 12:30 AM

You didn't tell us what lakes you are sailing in Poland, with an internet hookup, in the middle of the night, Karolina. I suppose you are reading Jozef Baka's poems while you take advantage of those drunken sailors in the moonlight. As Lec wrote, 'When you jump for joy, beware that no one moves the ground from under your feet.' I suppose that wouldn't be your problem on a boat with drunken sailors?

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: GUEST,Karolina
Date: 03 Jul 00 - 12:07 AM

Gee, Flattop, I liked that!

I wonder where do you know S.J.Lec from? You've managed to impress me, really!!!

All the best,

Karolina, the infamous lakesailor :)

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: flattop
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 11:56 PM

Yes Karolina, your english is rather good for a Polish sailor who sails lakes. Sails lakes? Don't forget what Stanislaw Jerzy Lec wrote, 'They tortured him. They were searching his brain for their own thoughts.'

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: GUEST,Karolina
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 11:46 PM

Oh, I make use of'em in many ways, Flattop.

I make them clean the board, for example. Sometimes it even works to get them cook something for you. I've even tried to send them for some more beer, but it usually doesn't work - they never come back :)

When you're sailing across Polish lakes, many strange things happen to you and on the sea it's even worse. Sometimes drunken sailors are more common than the sober ones.

Hey, Harpgirl, I didn't mean to talk nonsense at all, perhaps I should've put there the word "yachtsman" instead of "sailor", sorry! Come on, be more tolerant, English ain't my first language, you know...

Karolina

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 11:43 PM

The cat had nine lashes because superstition had it that a flogging by a trinity of trinties would be more sacred. The whip consisted of a handle made of rope about 3 1/2 inches thick in circumference & about 18 inches in length. At the end are fastened 9 tails made of log line with at least 3 knots on each tail. "Flogged around the fleet", a man was lashed in a long boat & rowed to each ship in the harbor where he'd receive 6 lashes per ship as all hands witnessed. The cat was aways put in a red bag to disquise the bloodstains & when the "cat's out of the bag" the victum sometimes was made to lay over a gun & marry the gunner's daughter & if lucky & no blood was drawn the you had "goose without gravy". Sometimes if one fell asleep on watch they'd be hung in a net from the bowspirit's end & given a beer, a loaf of bread & a knife. He stayed there till he either starved to death or cut himself loose into the sea. Barry

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 11:27 PM

Kissing (or fucking) the gunner's daughter consisted of being bent over a cannon in preparation for a flogging. As far as the Captain's daughter goes, I can only quote Sigmund Freud:
"...sometimes a cigar is only a cigar..."

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: flattop
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 11:07 PM

How do you make use of them, Karolina?

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 10:55 PM

Hi Jeri, I have heard the expression "putting him to sleep" as dishing out a beating. Polish female sailors, why of course, usually find a good few on Polish ships. Barry

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 10:51 PM

I heard a definition similar to Jeri's. The "captain's daughter" was the "cat of nine tails". A type of club with nine whip like appendages on the end. The whip was kept in the captain's quarters ~ thus the term "captain's daughter". I suppose the nine whips on the end may have some resemblance to hair.

Cap't Bob

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: SeanM
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 10:50 PM

Hi! I'm the one who posted about the "captain's daughter" earlier.

As it was explained to me, the 'Captain's Daughter' was a tool of discipline, usually either a lash or something similar. to "kiss the captain's daughter" (for light shipboard transgressions) was a light beating, while "put to bed with the captain's daughter" would be being beaten until the sailor passed out from the pain.

I'm willing to believe this, as I've seen a "Bosun's Daughter", which was a studded club about 2' long - apparently quite adept at subduing or killing should the need be.

For real context on "Drunken Sailor", consider that a truly drunken sailor on watch is at best useless, at worst an absolute menace to both ship and crew. In theory, it's still possible to be executed for being drunk on watch in the US Navy (didn't say it was done...just that it was in the possible punishments). I've read accounts of sailors drunk on watch being punished in truly horrific ways... Being beaten unconscious is probably one of the nicer that I've heard.

M

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 10:48 PM

Hi Chanteyranger, 3 of us sang this last night at a shriner's convention & as we sang that verse the group at the table we were singing to all looked at this young woman & they all looked back at us & said she's the captain's daughter (she was very graceful in how she let us off the hook). I haven't yet found this verse in a collection yet (but that doesn't mean squat). I'd say that most drunk sailors were not all that perticular about who'd allow themselves to spend an hour with them never mind a night & at no cost to Jack , even slimer, the old man's daughter, not a chance unless your name was Ruben Ranzo. To slight the old man & cast doubt on his daughter's good looks, maybe. I do remember a party where the captain of a schooner's daughter (Boston 1992) danced the night away with a member of the crew of the schooner that they were tied up too, both were in their cups but I'd say they both got lucky. Barry

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: harpgirl
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 10:46 PM

.polish, eh???? a polish sailor girl? you people believe this drivel????

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: GUEST,Karolina
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 10:24 PM

Flattop,

Even though I'm a female sailor, I don't have anything against drunken sailors. You can still make a use of them, not necessarily in bed... :)

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 10:23 PM

I remember talking about this in Real Life recently. Think it may have something to do with the "captain's daughter" being some sort of club, and to put him to bed with it would mean to beat him senseless. Oh Barry....

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: flattop
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 09:20 PM

This could be nastier for the captain's daughter. Why don't we care about the captain's daughter? Because her father has power? Is that reason to put a drunken sailor in bed with her?

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: kendall
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 09:13 PM

As I understand it, in the old days of sail, it was traditional to say anything the chantyman wanted in the chanty. This was one of the only instances in which common seamen were allowed free speech.

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: Gary T
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 08:39 PM

On some thread not too long ago there was mention that "to kiss the gunner's daughter" meant something along the lines of putting one's face up to a gun barrel. Not knowing any better myself, I always figured the captain's daughter thing was literal, which of course would be a nasty trick to play on someone who was drunk and likely to pass out there (regardless of her looks, the captain's ire being the expected result).

Subject: RE: Help: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughte
From: GUEST,Karolina
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 08:39 PM

Hi, chanteyranger.

We know this shanty in Poland, too, but as far as I know, in Polish it means literally what it means...

Hope somebody will know more.

Karolina

Subject: meaning of 'in bed w/ captain's daughter
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 08:16 PM

In the chantey "Drunken Sailor" there is a verse that goes "Put him in bed with the captain's daughter." I've heard add-in verses sung after that about how ugly she is, and comparing her to an Orangutan and such. However, I heard somewhere (don't remember where or who) that the original verse is symbolic; that to be "in bed with the captain's daughter" does not mean that literally, but refers to something else aboard ship. Can anyone set me straight on that? (Barry, you out there?) Thanks!

chanteyranger